GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

[Myrmex]

Though the Orcs also have the Shadow Hunter who has Healing Wave, and in my experience he's not actually that bad of a first hero choice (though I prefer the Tauren Chieftain myself). No burrow though but I figure they make up for that with extra hit points... and of course being a totally different unit for a totally different role.

Shadow Hunter is nice, though I prefer Blademaster. Healing Wave is a little underwhelming. It was really great in Beta, and shortly after release, but it got nerfed. 3 Shadow Hunters & Serpent Ward can make a really brutal rush.

Even Dryads, with Unarmored armor, fall prey to Tauren very very quickly when they can't keep their distance. And even moreso for Archers too, because they have Medium. In an open battlefield it's easier to keep your distance but in, say, a siege, either defensive or offensive, it's much more difficult and this is where Tauren can really mess you up.

Actually, I find closed bases and narrow chokes the biggest problem for taurens. I am a Random player, but as NE, tend to make lots of archers, druids of the talon, and dryads, and go kotg as primary & priestess as secondary hero. That strategy works really well against bears, abominations, and tauren, but not knights, due to the unit size. Level 3 entangle + 6 treants means the tauren are stuck, and any that break through are going to get slow poisoned. Focus fire with 20 or 30 archers with damage upgrade, range upgrade, weapons upgrade, and aura, against low armored tauren with faerie fire on em (also great for a big blademaster stfu), and they go down FAST. Of course, this strategy is contingent on being able to stay away from the tauren. Once they close, it's all over.

In 4v4s everything is inherently cheesy so I wouldn't really count anything that applies only in that category as being practical.

Yes, I agree, but the noob was asking for advice in team games, and since 2/3 of team games have more than 4 players, I was giving him advice for 3s & 4s.

They're only micro intensive in that Ensnare is not autocast.

Well, yeah, of course. And they are squishy melee units, so you have to keep em back, away from the normal damage. I love using raiders in 1v1 & 2v2, especially with catapults against night elf. Nothing pleases me more than watching elves explode.

They're fragile versus melee units but against ranged they're not so bad and their Siege damage is incredible against buildings and Unarmored units.

This is true, but I find maneuvering units (getting units to where you want them and attacking what you want while staying away from what don't want hitting them) to be extremely micro intensive, especially if you are trying to keep you hero alive vs a mass of range units focus firing it.

Admittedly it has been a while since I've built Wyverns but as I remember they are better for smaller games where it's more likely that opponents can neglect anti-air and, as you say, for harassing. 3v3s are not the only game type, after all.

True, but again, specific advice regarding team games.

I've noticed that pretty much anything with shamans yields good results.

That's my recommendation for orcs, especially in team games. Get bloodlust asap. Well, not too asap.

[Winterwind]

Thanks for the tips guys. I was thinking of playing as undead or orcs, which one gentler learning curve?

Well, let me present some aspects of both races. Keep in mind I'm an Undead player myself (though I play all races moderately frequently), so my comprehension of Orcs may be imperfect.

Undead:

• Extremely good heroes. No other race sticks so much to its own heroes as the Undead, and for a good reason - the Death Knight can heal your units, making preserving them that much easier, and gives your army unparalleled mobility, the Lich has an incredible damage output and becomes utterly insane when equipped with the Orb, and the other two, while more situational, are quite powerful and useful for various strategies as well.
• Very good items in their shop - the Rod of Necromancy makes both creeping and rushing that much more effective, you have invisibility detection right at T1, and at T3 you get the best orb in the game with the Orb of Corruption, which increases the damage of your entire army if you focus whatever the hero carrying it is attacking (ideally the Lich, since his ranged attacks are easier to direct at what you want to focus; this would be another example of the synergy between the UD heroes and army).
• Arguably the best ranged T1 unit. Fiends are durable and powerful, and with Burrow and a bit of micro, you can deny the enemy any kills and heal them quickly - even in mid battle. Burrow a near-dead fiend, and it may well be healed up enough to engage again before the battle is over. Between this and the Death Knight's healing Death Coils, an UD can preserve units really well.
• One of the best dispells in the game, being positioned on a durable magic-immune unit which fuels its powerful attacks with it at the same time. On the other hand, being available at T3 only, it's also the latest dispell in the game, meaning casters can be a problem until you tech far enough.
• Arguably the strongest T3. If you can live to T3 without suffering too much damage, then winning shouldn't be all that difficult anymore. On the other hand, pretty weak T2. It gives you a few very useful and important things (2nd hero, burrow+web, gargoyles, statues), but the really powerful aspects of your army require T3.
• Connected with the above point, as well as the UD's general penchant for not letting units die - less need for an expo than other races. On the other hand, it's fairly difficult to get an expo up, since you either lack a main building to teleport to or have to make an additional investment, cannot place towers while the expo is being built unless you use a Sacrificial Skull, and most importantly cannot get workers for the expo while teching.
• No ways of healing or regenerating mana beside the Death Knight (who cannot heal himself) and the ghouls' Cannibalism at T1.
• T1 melee units, the ghouls, while being strong, are fairly difficult to use due to their low hit points.
• Weak to worker harrassment - due to the exposed position of the accolytes and their low number, they present a premium target.
• Most hated enemies: The Orcs. It's generally considered one of the most poorly balanced match-ups in the game; winning against an Orc player who knows what he is doing is really difficult.

tl;dr: Late-game race - teching is very important and very strong. Heroes play arguably an even bigger role than usual in this army. Good at preserving units.

Orcs:

• Very strong heroes, capable of posing a threat even without the rest of the army, making them excellent at harrassment. Also, good at killing single units or heroes (Blademaster, Shadow Hunter's Hex, etc.). This is further boosted by such units as Raiders and Kodos.
• Very good healing and mana regeneration options in their shop. Also, their Orb synergizes excellently with their theme of killing solitary units.
• Arguably the best melee T1 unit. Grunts are durable, strong and quite cheap for what they do, and the upgrade at T2 makes them even better. Due to their high hit points, it's also easier to have them run away before they die.
• Fairly poor dispell, since the only unit that has one with area effect is fairly costly, not magic-immune, and not even necessarily used in every game.
• One of the, quite possibly the strongest T2. With all their casters and bestiary units available at T2, the Orcs wield a terrifying force and can use this moment to secure an advantage that will win them the game. On the other hand, T3 holds only Tauren for them (which are excellent, but often not needed, since Grunts are very strong melee units too), much less than the T3 of other races (many Orcs don't even bother with upgrading to T3).
• Moderate need for expos, but due to their strong T2, quite good at securing expos.
• Fairly poor invisibility detection capabilities.
• T1 ranged units, the trolls, while being strong, are fairly difficult to use due to their low hit points.
• Thanks to burrows, fairly strong against worker harrassment.
• Their bats tear light air to shreds, but they have a problem against heavy air, lacking a decent amount of good counters to that.
• Most hated enemies: Not sure if it's the Night Elves or the Humans currently. The Humans have air that the Orcs have trouble dealing with, the Night Elves have the infamous Mass Talons strategy.

tl;dr: Mid-game race - try to secure a superior position at T2. Good at harrassment and killing single targets.

[Myrmex]

I am a random player, so have played all the races the same amount. Here's my take:

Undead have weaker heros, overall, than Orcs, but WAY better synergy. Coil means your units aren't going to die, and with the auras up, you really aren't going to die!

I like the lich least, since his nova has a long cool down and is mana expensive. I usually go death knight, dreadlord and/or crypt lord. The crypt lord's impale is AWESOME, and extremely mana efficient. Put a +150 mana thing on him, and you can cast it 4 times in a battle.

Ghouls + Dread lord aura can be a low level rush that will win you the game. It only works in teams with more than 2 players, though.

Getting the dark ranger from the tavern and using her to rush is brutal (doesn't work vs. NE, though, since wisps don't spawn skeletons). It requires a lot of micro, as you have to make killing blows on enemies, but you can quickly have an army of undead. Combined with a couple ghouls and a rod of necromancy, and you can swarm an enemy.

If you get to statues fast, you can be almost unstoppable. Having a death knight aura up, along with statues healing, and blight from a sacrificial skull, and your army has terrific durability.

Burrowing neardly dead crypt fiends (dancing) in combat doesn't work. You have to run them back, then burrow them. You used to be able to do it, but not anymore (not for a long time).

Personally, I think undead has one of the strongest tier twos. Necromancers are incredible. You can win the game with them, if you get em fast enough. Statues are also unbelievably good. Crypt fiends are they best anti air unit, as it traps air units, not just shoots them. This means any form of harassment from flyers is usually going to fail.

Most of what Winterwind covered with orc, I agree with, save his claim that no one uses spirit walkers. In 1v1 & 2v2, they are used a lot. Their dispel is much needed, but more importantly, their spirit link is extremely powerful. Orcs have high hitpoint units, but they get few of them, so focus fire tends to hit orcs a little harder than other races. With spirit link, though, you don't have to kill just one 800 hp grunt, you have to kill all 6. Healing scrolls & healing wave just got a lot better, since 1200 damage on one unit would kill it, but spread out over 6 units, each 200 points of damage will be healed 150 points by the scroll (or is it 200? I forget).

Orcs' strength, surprisingly, comes with their maneuverability. Blood lust lasts a minute, which means you can run very fast, either chasing or fleeing from a battle. Wyverns & raiders are both fast, wind walking blademasters are fast, and a tauren chieftain makes even the catapults fast. I'd say orc does best against night elf, since they have a lot of siege damage which blows apart fragile units, unarmored night elf units. Raiders' ensnare removes the maneuverability of huntresses and spirit link makes NE focus fire (arguably the best out there) pretty moot. Ensnare will also remove mountain giants from combat and keep units stationary for catapulting.

[The Orange Zergling]

Shadow Hunter is nice, though I prefer Blademaster. Healing Wave is a little underwhelming. It was really great in Beta, and shortly after release, but it got nerfed. 3 Shadow Hunters & Serpent Ward can make a really brutal rush.

Yes, but a heal is a heal. Granted, it's no Death Coil or Holy Light but it's better than nothing.

Actually, I find closed bases and narrow chokes the biggest problem for taurens. I am a Random player, but as NE, tend to make lots of archers, druids of the talon, and dryads, and go kotg as primary & priestess as secondary hero. That strategy works really well against bears, abominations, and tauren, but not knights, due to the unit size. Level 3 entangle + 6 treants means the tauren are stuck, and any that break through are going to get slow poisoned. Focus fire with 20 or 30 archers with damage upgrade, range upgrade, weapons upgrade, and aura, against low armored tauren with faerie fire on em (also great for a big blademaster stfu), and they go down FAST. Of course, this strategy is contingent on being able to stay away from the tauren. Once they close, it's all over.

That's my point; once they're in melee, you're dead. In a siege you're either defending your base and thus don't have mobility or you're attacking a base and thus you're sandwiched between your ally's army(/armies) and the opposing structures. It's circumstantial but I notice that my Huntresses, Bears and Dryads tend to be able to avoid Tauren way more easily in an open field rather than during a siege.

Unrelated, but Force of Nature is generally a bad idea, since Treants have so few hit points that almost all dispels in the game will destroy them in one casting. I haven't tried rushing with it yet but that's a whole different can of worms.

Yes, I agree, but the noob was asking for advice in team games, and since 2/3 of team games have more than 4 players, I was giving him advice for 3s & 4s.

In my experience 2v2s are played just as often as 3v3s. And my position on 4v4s has already been made clear so I won't go there.

Well, yeah, of course. And they are squishy melee units, so you have to keep em back, away from the normal damage. I love using raiders in 1v1 & 2v2, especially with catapults against night elf. Nothing pleases me more than watching elves explode.

They are squishy, yes, but you have Grunts for that.

This is true, but I find maneuvering units (getting units to where you want them and attacking what you want while staying away from what don't want hitting them) to be extremely micro intensive, especially if you are trying to keep you hero alive vs a mass of range units focus firing it.

Yeah, but this is true with pretty much every army, regardless of composition. Unless you have something like Huntresses/Dryads which all have the same armor type, but that has problems aside from micro.

True, but again, specific advice regarding team games.

Actually just earlier today I was in a 3v3 match where I built Wyverns and they were used to great effect. We still lost but that was more due to their specific army composition and our coordination.

---

Final verdict: *shrug*, play what you want. I think any of the races could become relatively easy for you if you pick one that you like and just stick with it.

[Winterwind]

Going to comment just upon the things I disagree with or have some comment to make on.

Also, for the sake of less experienced players who might be reading this, I'll try to keep all acronyms out.

I like the lich least, since his nova has a long cool down and is mana expensive. I usually go death knight, dreadlord and/or crypt lord. The crypt lord's impale is AWESOME, and extremely mana efficient. Put a +150 mana thing on him, and you can cast it 4 times in a battle.

I think you underestimate the damage output of a Lich's Nova though. Yes, a crypt lord's Impale is impressive, but the damage output on each single target is significantly lower, the stun is shorter than the Nova's slow effect, and hitting distant, running away targets is practically impossible. And the ability to deal a lot of damage in a very short time, while preventing the enemy to run away, is what forms the basis of the infamous Undead nuke. The Nova helps killing enemy heroes or units that lag behind in a way Impale cannot.

But there is a much more important reason to have a Lich around: He is the only ranged Undead hero (technically, there's also the Dark Ranger, but the skill she is usually chosen for is an orb effect). This means he is the only one well suited for carrying the Orb of Corruption. His projectiles are faster than those of fiends, which means his attack will always impact first and lower the targets armour for the entire rest of the army. The damage output increase is enormous. So enormous, in fact, that I'd consider rushing towards T3 worth it if the only thing it offered was the Orb of Corruption. And for this reason, I think the Lich is almost as important to a functioning Undead army as the Death Knight himself. The importance of the Orb of Corruption just cannot be understated.

Ghouls + Dread lord aura can be a low level rush that will win you the game. It only works in teams with more than 2 players, though.

It can work against Night Elves or other Undead in 1v1s too - any better ones will know how to fend it off, but you can still hope to do enough damage to make it worth it. Though a Death Knight against the former or a Lich against the latter may support the ghoul rush just as well, if not better.

Burrowing neardly dead crypt fiends (dancing) in combat doesn't work. You have to run them back, then burrow them. You used to be able to do it, but not anymore (not for a long time).

Why not? Even players from the top 200 solo ladder do not always have invisibility detection around, and even if they do, even their micro is not perfect enough to always keep focusing the fiend.

Personally, I think undead has one of the strongest tier twos. Necromancers are incredible. You can win the game with them, if you get em fast enough. Statues are also unbelievably good. Crypt fiends are they best anti air unit, as it traps air units, not just shoots them. This means any form of harassment from flyers is usually going to fail.

Necromancers are an incredible risk. Yes, they can win games for you... the problem is, if you do not win right away, and the opponent realizes what is going on and gets sufficient dispell, you are left with having invested tons of resources into buildings and units that will not do you much good - a blow from which you are most unlikely to recover.
As for statues, they are good healers, certainly, but they won't outheal the damage output of a well microed army.

Most of what Winterwind covered with orc, I agree with, save his claim that no one uses spirit walkers.

We have a misunderstanding here. I didn't mean to say nobody uses spirit walkers - contrariwise, they are fairly frequent sight.
My point was, there are Orc strategies that do not involve them, like when an Orc goes for multiple bestiaries to mass raiders/wyvern/kodos, while games with Humans without priests, Night Elves without dryads or Undead without destroyers are much more infrequent. Most importantly though, they are less in number, for the simple reason that they cost more resources and take up more supply than, say, priests, which ultimately means less chances to cast their dispell magic, especially if the enemy should use something like the Mass Talons strategy (granted, by that logic the dispell of Undead would be even worse, as destroyers are even more costly, but destroyers are magic immune, which ensures the things they are supposed to dispell will not prevent them from dispelling, and they have a lot of combat power going for them, too).
Essentially, I feel that if an opponent really sets her or his heart to it, the Orc is more likely to run out of dispell before the opponent runs out of spells.

[Myrmex]

Going to comment just upon the things I disagree with or have some comment to make on.

Also, for the sake of less experienced players who might be reading this, I'll try to keep all acronyms out.

Same. Good call.

I think you underestimate the damage output of a Lich's Nova though. Yes, a crypt lord's Impale is impressive, but the damage output on each single target is significantly lower, the stun is shorter than the Nova's slow effect, and hitting distant, running away targets is practically impossible. And the ability to deal a lot of damage in a very short time, while preventing the enemy to run away, is what forms the basis of the infamous Undead nuke. The Nova helps killing enemy heroes or units that lag behind in a way Impale cannot.

I don't know if you can do this still, but I used to use impale as an enemy town portal'd away, and if they were in the air, they wouldn't be targeted. It's been awhile since I pulled that trick off.

My play strategy is a little different with undead. I use Death Knight & Crypt Lord as tanks and healers, not hero nukers. I find Death Coil tends to be a waste on enemy units, and is usually better spent keeping resource intensive fiends & a tanking hero alive. There are times when coil, coil, coil works, for sure, it's just not my main function with undead heros.

But there is a much more important reason to have a Lich around: He is the only ranged Undead hero (technically, there's also the Dark Ranger, but the skill she is usually chosen for is an orb effect). This means he is the only one well suited for carrying the Orb of Corruption. His projectiles are faster than those of fiends, which means his attack will always impact first and lower the targets armour for the entire rest of the army. The damage output increase is enormous. So enormous, in fact, that I'd consider rushing towards T3 worth it if the only thing it offered was the Orb of Corruption. And for this reason, I think the Lich is almost as important to a functioning Undead army as the Death Knight himself. The importance of the Orb of Corruption just cannot be understated.

Huh. I'm going to have to try that out. The lich is such a slow, fragile, mana intensive unit, though, I've never gotten into using him. Didn't know Orb of Corruption was so good. That would explain why T3 undead can wipe my heroes so fast.

It can work against Night Elves or other Undead in 1v1s too - any better ones will know how to fend it off, but you can still hope to do enough damage to make it worth it. Though a Death Knight against the former or a Lich against the latter may support the ghoul rush just as well, if not better.

I've had a couple really good successes with it. In solo play, when I go random and I see an undead player, guessing mass fiends is usually a pretty good guess, so ghoul superiority can usually do it. They move faster, they're cheaper, build sooner, and do extra damage to fiends. Not always- it can fail spectacularly.

In 3v3 or 4v4, when I have allies leave, and any of them happen to be undead, it's just T1 units en masse. Mostly noobs play 3v3 or 4v4, so having to control 4 teams is sometimes better than having them there. I've won quite a few games where it was just me or me and another guy vs. 4 other people because of being able to coordinate T1 really well.

Why not? Even players from the top 200 solo ladder do not always have invisibility detection around, and even if they do, even their micro is not perfect enough to always keep focusing the fiend.

They don't burrow fast enough and stay visible for awhile. It's like how 6 marines shooting a burrowing lurker can take it from green to yellow or yellow to dead by the time it's fully burrowed. Blizzard may have changed it, though. I remember when it first saw play, and you could dance the hell out of them, then it got removed (ie, they stay visible for a LONG time as they burrow).

Necromancers are an incredible risk. Yes, they can win games for you... the problem is, if you do not win right away, and the opponent realizes what is going on and gets sufficient dispell, you are left with having invested tons of resources into buildings and units that will not do you much good - a blow from which you are most unlikely to recover.
As for statues, they are good healers, certainly, but they won't outheal the damage output of a well microed army.

In 1v1 or 2v2 (2v2 is my favorite match up), you only get one necromancer building facility, and get 4 to 6 necros. With two statues out, you should be able to run them out of dispels before they run you out of mana. Unless they have a 5th level archmage with lvl 3 brilliance aura for some reason, in which case you did something wrong or they are just way better than you.

Combined with ghouls, fiends, two statues, two heroes, and a corpse wagon, you have some really good staying power. The best part is being able to crack enemy bases if they don't want to fight you.

In 3v3 or 4v4, getting necros fast will end the game at tier two. Since half their players will suck, some preliminary shade scouting will let you wipe at least one of them out, which will then let you win by sheer numbers.

We have a misunderstanding here. I didn't mean to say nobody uses spirit walkers - contrariwise, they are fairly frequent sight.
My point was, there are Orc strategies that do not involve them, like when an Orc goes for multiple bestiaries to mass raiders/wyvern/kodos, while games with Humans without priests, Night Elves without dryads or Undead without destroyers are much more infrequent. Most importantly though, they are less in number, for the simple reason that they cost more resources and take up more supply than, say, priests, which ultimately means less chances to cast their dispell magic, especially if the enemy should use something like the Mass Talons strategy (granted, by that logic the dispell of Undead would be even worse, as destroyers are even more costly, but destroyers are magic immune, which ensures the things they are supposed to dispell will not prevent them from dispelling, and they have a lot of combat power going for them, too).
Essentially, I feel that if an opponent really sets her or his heart to it, the Orc is more likely to run out of dispell before the opponent runs out of spells.

What sort of match up are you talking about? 1v1 or 2v2, virtually all good orc players get raiders, a kodo, spirit walkers, grunts, a couple catapults, two heroes, and bloodlust.

Massing one type of unit in 1v1 or 2v2 sometimes works, but it's mostly at break points and in games with low levels of conflict. For instance, if you rush with 14 footmen with no tech, you can win. But if the enemy plays it smart and pushes you out, then retaliates with a couple sorceresses, and you are still at tier one, you can really be stewed. Alternatively, if you go to tier two and have a nice, mixed army, but don't take advantage of it, and he gets tier three air or melee, your mix won't matter, as it will be a brute match up.

3v3 or 4v4 doesn't really matter what happens, as long as you pour enough units early enough at their weak point. Paper-scissors-rock doesn't matter early game, as it's really just who can accrue the most paper or rocks and hurl them at the enemy. Later in the game it's more paper-scissors-rock, but not much more. Dryads & mountain giants, for instance, have ENORMOUS impact on a 1v1 one game, but for every additional ally & opponent, their importance steadily declines, until their expense is no longer worth it, and tauren or bears or knights are simply a better solution.

[Winterwind]

I don't know if you can do this still, but I used to use impale as an enemy town portal'd away, and if they were in the air, they wouldn't be targeted. It's been awhile since I pulled that trick off.

I think this still works. Not sure, since the only occasions when I use a Crypt Lord are either in the very lategame, with few opportunities to pull this off presenting itself anymore, or to support a tower rush/expansion steal (which I hardly do more often than once in a hundred games, when I feel like doing something crazy).

My play strategy is a little different with undead. I use Death Knight & Crypt Lord as tanks and healers, not hero nukers. I find Death Coil tends to be a waste on enemy units, and is usually better spent keeping resource intensive fiends & a tanking hero alive. There are times when coil, coil, coil works, for sure, it's just not my main function with undead heros.

I agree, Death Coil in offensive function is rarely a good option. 90% of the time, casting it to heal is a far superior option. However, there is one thing for which using it offensively is a good choice, and that is to finish off fleeing units. Be it a nigh-dead huntress retreating to her base or an enemy hero on the run, if it dies, it was worth it.

As for the Undead nuke, the coil is the finisher, for this very reason. First, focus the target with everything that makes sense. Then, just as the target realizes it's being focused and wants to run, it gets a Nova, and cannot run anymore. If a Crypt Lord is available, stun to prevent a portal; otherwise, just before it gets out of the army's range, judge if it is hurt enough to be killed by a coil, and use it only then.

Huh. I'm going to have to try that out. The lich is such a slow, fragile, mana intensive unit, though, I've never gotten into using him. Didn't know Orb of Corruption was so good. That would explain why T3 undead can wipe my heroes so fast.

I always carry a mana potion on my Lich, because yes, he is mana intensive. With a mana potion, he will practically be able to shoot 4 novas during a battle though, which is quite terrifying, both the damage dealt by the nova and the damage prevented by the slow considered. Boots of Speed can help with the slowness, though I don't always remember to get them/can spare the gold at the time myself. He is fragile, of course, but that's what the Death Knight is there for...

I've had a couple really good successes with it. In solo play, when I go random and I see an undead player, guessing mass fiends is usually a pretty good guess, so ghoul superiority can usually do it. They move faster, they're cheaper, build sooner, and do extra damage to fiends. Not always- it can fail spectacularly.

They move equally fast, actually, but yeah, otherwise agreed. Many Undead players - usually, though not always, the noobier ones - go for Death Knight with fiends even when they know they are up against another Undead. Nothing's sweeter than using an Undead's own graveyard to summon the skeletons that will kill his accolytes...

In 3v3 or 4v4, when I have allies leave, and any of them happen to be undead, it's just T1 units en masse. Mostly noobs play 3v3 or 4v4, so having to control 4 teams is sometimes better than having them there. I've won quite a few games where it was just me or me and another guy vs. 4 other people because of being able to coordinate T1 really well.

Yeah, I imagine so. Lack of coordination seems to be the primary reason for people who may even be quite competent individually losing anyway.

They don't burrow fast enough and stay visible for awhile. It's like how 6 marines shooting a burrowing lurker can take it from green to yellow or yellow to dead by the time it's fully burrowed. Blizzard may have changed it, though. I remember when it first saw play, and you could dance the hell out of them, then it got removed (ie, they stay visible for a LONG time as they burrow).

It's not quite as bad as with lurkers... one has to pay close attention to how much damage the fiend is taking and take care to burrow it early enough (which may be at one third hit points, rather than the last few slices), and I admit I screw it up often enough myself, but it is definitely possible, especially in smaller games and before late-game brings all those huge armies with tons of heavy melee units.

In 1v1 or 2v2 (2v2 is my favorite match up), you only get one necromancer building facility, and get 4 to 6 necros. With two statues out, you should be able to run them out of dispels before they run you out of mana. Unless they have a 5th level archmage with lvl 3 brilliance aura for some reason, in which case you did something wrong or they are just way better than you.

Combined with ghouls, fiends, two statues, two heroes, and a corpse wagon, you have some really good staying power. The best part is being able to crack enemy bases if they don't want to fight you.

If you get only one Temple of the Damned though, it will take long if you want to upgrade your Necromancers to master-level. Longer even if you want the upgrades for the skeletons. By that time, the opponent's army will be quite impressive, and he will have been operating quite freely while you got all of this (meaning he may well have an expo, while you have none). And they don't have to dispell until one of the sides runs out of mana - it's sufficient to dispell for long enough to clear the way to the necromancers and get rid of them.

In 3v3 or 4v4, getting necros fast will end the game at tier two. Since half their players will suck, some preliminary shade scouting will let you wipe at least one of them out, which will then let you win by sheer numbers.

In Random Team games, I imagine that might happen. In Arranged Team games, on the other hand, the chance for them being good enough to deal with it is far better...

What sort of match up are you talking about? 1v1 or 2v2, virtually all good orc players get raiders, a kodo, spirit walkers, grunts, a couple catapults, two heroes, and bloodlust.

I was talking about 1v1s/2v2s mostly. And it depends on the match-up and strategy chosen - against another Orc, for instance, they may go for more disabling via raiders and kodos, rather than getting casters. Against Undead, they may opt to go for more grunts+raiders, too, to kill all the fiends, and not get casters either, or try to overload the Undead's anti-air by producing enough windriders to outkill the fiends. Etc.

Massing one type of unit in 1v1 or 2v2 sometimes works, but it's mostly at break points and in games with low levels of conflict. For instance, if you rush with 14 footmen with no tech, you can win. But if the enemy plays it smart and pushes you out, then retaliates with a couple sorceresses, and you are still at tier one, you can really be stewed. Alternatively, if you go to tier two and have a nice, mixed army, but don't take advantage of it, and he gets tier three air or melee, your mix won't matter, as it will be a brute match up.

Massing one type of unit would indeed be untypical (though not unheard of; mass huntresses or mass fiends is popular enough), but I was mostly thinking about players limiting themselves to barracks and bestiary units. Which is not that rare a thing.

3v3 or 4v4 doesn't really matter what happens, as long as you pour enough units early enough at their weak point. Paper-scissors-rock doesn't matter early game, as it's really just who can accrue the most paper or rocks and hurl them at the enemy. Later in the game it's more paper-scissors-rock, but not much more. Dryads & mountain giants, for instance, have ENORMOUS impact on a 1v1 one game, but for every additional ally & opponent, their importance steadily declines, until their expense is no longer worth it, and tauren or bears or knights are simply a better solution.

Quite true.

[Myrmex]

Getting skeleton mastery & adept training only takes 45 seconds (15 sec for the former, 30 sec for the latter).

I usually pick up mastery immediately, then research training on the way to his base. Necromancers need to be escorted, so there's no real loss in the turning off unit production for 30 seconds.


Something that I haven't seen mentioned: scouting. It is extremely useful. Huntresses' sentinel ability means you can watch every gold mine, creep patch, and choke point. Shades can follow enemy movements or infiltrate bases. You can actually really mess up base lay out if you fill an enemy base with strategically placed shades. I've had it done to me before, back in the days of tree-walking ghouls. Every race has at least two good scouting units.

[Legoshrimp]

I have not really gotten scouting down as human. What are the best ways to do it effectively/cheaply in T1. I know to upgrade true sight and use arcane towers when I can.

[Oslecamo]

Some points to the discussion:

Statue healing:
It's actually quite good. Specially because they can regenerate mana. Build two statues during battle and put them following your hero regenerating mana. It really helps to keep the spells coming out. Outside of battle, it allows you to quickly replenish the health of your army after a hit and a run. It also makes burrowing fiends even better.

Air on 3x3
If you do it alone it really isn't that good, but two players massing air togheter is just brutal, as they can easily overpower any AA the other team has, or just go and raid their bases to oblivion before they understand what's hapening.

On the lich
He's very good yes, but he's also the hardest undead hero to use. He's pretty much a glass cannon. Hits hard, but if you don't baby-sit him all the time he just goes down on a breeze.

On the tauren shamans
They're necessary. A skilled elf player can rape an orc army trough talon mass+tornado, as the orc army will always have fewer units. The only way to counter this is with tauren dispel. Also the life link rocks.

Also I must ask why aren't you talking about the awesomess that are crypt fiends? One or two are really the cherry on top of the UD army! Slow AND area damage? Yes please.

[Winterwind]

On the tauren shamans
They're necessary. A skilled elf player can rape an orc army trough talon mass+tornado, as the orc army will always have fewer units. The only way to counter this is with tauren dispel. Also the life link rocks.

As that infamous series of games between Grubby and SpiritMoon has shown, if a good Night Elf player sets his mind to it, they won't suffice. I mean, Grubby knew what was coming, played an exact counter strategy (mass raiders to kill the talons, catapults, lots of spirit walkers), and yet he managed to win only one of the games where they played on-race, and that too just barely. The problem is that spirit walkers are not immune to Cyclone themselves, and due to their fairly low number, the Night Elf can manage to get rid of all of them.

Also I must ask why aren't you talking about the awesomess that are crypt fiends? One or two are really the cherry on top of the UD army! Slow AND area damage? Yes please.

I think you mean Frost Wyrms here.
Personally, I'm not too big a friend of them. Yes, if one gets them, they are incredible... the problem is that it takes ages from starting the investment into boneyards to the first wyrms popping, during which monstrous amounts of resources are bound without reinforcing the army. In smaller games, the enemy can use this time to gain a huge advantage or even kill you. I prefer to go for destroyers - with mana, they are almost as powerful, they provide much-needed dispell, and they can be built from buildings I already have anyway, rather than requiring a new one that cannot build anything else. If I have enough resources to get wyrms additionally, I do so, but then I had enough of a lead to win the game anyway.

In bigger games they are much better though.

[TheSummoner]

I have a problem... A few nights ago I installed Warcraft 3 so I could play through the campaign again. Long story short, The Culling wont load. I've uninstalled and reinstalled it 3 times and it never loads. I just get a black screen...

[Myrmex]

I have not really gotten scouting down as human. What are the best ways to do it effectively/cheaply in T1. I know to upgrade true sight and use arcane towers when I can.

Human T2 scouting is pretty weak. A militia can scout pretty effectively, as they have very fast move rates. A little costly, though, esp. as it means lost production.

Mechanical critters can sorta work; either drop them outside a base or expansion, or on a smaller map you can have them walk.

A water elemental can be used to scout, too, especially if it's damaged or whatever.

Something that works for all races, but is a bit circumstantial, is using a wand of illusion on a fast unit (typically your hero) and sending it out to scout. Beware that if used on a hero, it will broadcast both your level & what items you have to any enemy that cares to look.

[742]

mrymex i want to 1v1 you, you have some very good information and some that is just plain wrong. human T2 scouting is just about as good as it gets if you tower up an expo. i want to know if your really good or really bad.

and to new players: try to be fluid. in a team try to be literate. always try to predict your opponent. never let your heroes die, try to preserve small units too if you can. never engage when you cant win blah blah blah all that general art of war stuff.
never leave your hero doing nothing, creep fight harass or scout, but do something. try not to lose units creeping; ritual suicide is the only way to restore ones honor after such an event.
in a team game (or even a solo game on a large map) you must always have at least 1 scroll of town portal on your army at all times. the fact that town portal starts with the letters T and P and the fact that it is called TP are pure coincidence. its just that important.

[Winterwind]

I have a problem... A few nights ago I installed Warcraft 3 so I could play through the campaign again. Long story short, The Culling wont load. I've uninstalled and reinstalled it 3 times and it never loads. I just get a black screen...

Sorry, I have no idea what might be causing that. I hope somebody else in this thread can help you...?

A water elemental can be used to scout, too, especially if it's damaged or whatever.

A slow unit with a really high level (the Blizzard site won't load for me right now, so I can't check, but I think they are level 5/6/7)? That's one ton of experience for your opponent, if he runs into it...
I'd rather suggest having your army attack a water elemental if it happens to be damaged. They give way too much experience to let it fall to the enemy.

myrmex i want to 1v1 you

I have to say, I have similar sentiments.




Reminder: Tomorrow is our next custom map session. I hope to see all of you there.

[Legoshrimp]

Thanks for the advice. I will try some of those.

I hopefully should be there tomorrow.

[Myrmex]

mrymex i want to 1v1 you, you have some very good information and some that is just plain wrong. human T2 scouting is just about as good as it gets if you tower up an expo. i want to know if your really good or really bad.

That was a typo. I was thinking how bad T1 was, and wanted to say how great T2 is. Human T2 scouting is probably the best, imo. Mortar teams are just gg, and gyrocopters can be nice for their passive true sight ability (screw you, blademasters).

I'd 1v1 you, if I had a legitimate copy of frozen throne, and a working computer that could run warcraft 3. Unfortunately, I lost my cdkey years ago, and my laptop recently died. I'll eventually purchase another copy of TFT, but not until I get my computer fixed.

A slow unit with a really high level (the Blizzard site won't load for me right now, so I can't check, but I think they are level 5/6/7)? That's one ton of experience for your opponent, if he runs into it...
I'd rather suggest having your army attack a water elemental if it happens to be damaged. They give way too much experience to let it fall to the enemy.

That's true. I'm so used to playing team games, I forget you get experience from any enemy unit you kill, no matter where your hero is (that's still the case, as long as you only have on hero, right?)

I have to say, I have similar sentiments.

Ehhhh, I'm not a very good at 1v1.

[The Orange Zergling]

Due to the sudden onslaught of a sore throat I won't be able to speak in voice chat for the next couple of days - certainly not today and probably not Sunday either (though we'll have to wait and see). I'll still attend the session though, I'll just need to type for all of it.

[Winthur]

Add me in. (acc: Winth)

EDIT:
It's official. Polish hotkeys are a bunch of unnatural pesky mosquitoes that you want to KILL RIGHT AWAY! I WANT THE ENGLISH HOTKEYS!

[Winterwind]

Reminder: Tomorrow is our melee session. I hope to see you all there.

That's true. I'm so used to playing team games, I forget you get experience from any enemy unit you kill, no matter where your hero is (that's still the case, as long as you only have on hero, right?)

Yes, that's right.

Add me in. (acc: Winth)

Welcome.

Awww, awesome picture.

EDIT:
It's official. Polish hotkeys are a bunch of unnatural pesky mosquitoes that you want to KILL RIGHT AWAY! I WANT THE ENGLISH HOTKEYS!

Well, considering WarCraft 3 supports custom keys, you can fix this rather easily.

You have two ways for that.

The hard way:

• Go into your main WarCraft directory
• Edit your CustomKeys.txt file by hand to suit your desires
• In WarCraft, go into Options->Game, and check the Custom Keys box.

Or the easy way:

• Get this neat little tool called KeyCraft here
• Use it to either edit your keys much more comfortably, or have it automatically mirror the entire 3x4 block of buttons onto QWER ASDF..., for the most comfortable keys imaginable
• Again, go into WarCraft and check the Custom Keys box.

[Inhuman Bot]

I'm not going to be attending the warcraft 3 custom sessions anymore, if anyone cares.

I've got a conflicting schedule for firdays now.

[Myrmex]

Holy crap custom mapping is awesome!

I have to try that out.

Years ago these hardcore starcraft players made an RTS with 3 races (elves, demons & undead), basically taking all the best aspects of starcraft and improving them. They had really cool resource systems, too. Anyway, everything had the same hotkeys, which was so nice.

[Winterwind]

Holy crap custom mapping is awesome!

I have to try that out.

Years ago these hardcore starcraft players made an RTS with 3 races (elves, demons & undead), basically taking all the best aspects of starcraft and improving them. They had really cool resource systems, too. Anyway, everything had the same hotkeys, which was so nice.

The best part about this custom key configuration KeyCraft assigns is that the hotkey for every command corresponds to its physical location amongst the buttons on the right side in the interface, making it incredibly intuitive. Even when playing a race one usually never plays, one knows all of the hotkeys, always!

The bad side is that some custom maps use hotkeys that are suddenly taken up by the hotkeys for Stop or Hold Position or such, and hence are no longer useable there (though that's easily fixed if one keeps the original CustomKeys as backup and simply switches them out, depending on what one intends to play).

I can only say, if anybody is even in the slightest interested in playing melee, they should get KeyCraft, as it's a million times superior to the default keys.

I'm not going to be attending the warcraft 3 custom sessions anymore, if anyone cares.

I've got a conflicting schedule for firdays now.

Awwww.

[The Orange Zergling]

Though I'm feeling much, much better today, I might not be able to attend the session because I have to pack and get ready for a family trip (to Hawaii ) in which I leave tomorrow. I'll do my best but I'll be intermittent if so.

Speaking of which, this means I'll be missing next Friday, Saturday and very likely Sunday as well though I'm not 100% sure when we get back (plus the massive change in time zones makes it even more confusing).

[742]

well, damn. i dont seem to be able to get keycraft to work. i think i need an extra file called mscomctl.ocx but all the links i can find point me to a dead site. in fact, all links i got from sites in english pointed me there too.
people who use other lanuages: help!

[Winterwind]

well, damn. i dont seem to be able to get keycraft to work. i think i need an extra file called mscomctl.ocx but all the links i can find point me to a dead site. in fact, all links i got from sites in english pointed me there too.
people who use other lanuages: help!

Well, I found that file in my WinNT\System32\ folder (WinNT because I still use Windows2000 on this computer, I assume it would be the regular Windows folder on other Windows computers, no idea about non-Windows). Though I suppose just putting it in the KeyCraft directory would probably work, too.
I googled ('mscomctl.oxl' as term to be found) for it, and it's apparently just an ActiveX control element. Also, the very first link I got led straight to a free download of it (German site, but the download link should be easy enough to spot).

[Winterwind]

Reminder: Tomorrow is our next custom map session.

I'm not sure whether I will be able to attend though. I'll try, but I'll be at my parents over the weekend (I'll definitely not make it to the D&D session on Saturday, and I don't know about the melee session either yet). Though chances are I might be there nonetheless.

[Winterwind]

Awww, c'mon, don't make me triple post to get the reminders out.

Anyway, tomorrow is the melee session. Alas, just as I couldn't participate yesterday, I won't be able to show up tomorrow. Lots of fun to you who do, however.

[Bunny of Faith]

Aww. But it's fun to see how many posts we can make you post, before someone else says something! Though typing this I've broken the cycle.

[nooblade]

I think next week I'll be done with this massive homework wave and able to play some online games.

Had to get that in before Winter starts the next epic reminder n-tuple-post.