Erfworld 159 - tBfGK 146

[BLANDCorporatio]

No. For every marbit they kill they take one marbit from the opposition and give said opposition one marbit corpse. If, and only if, they then manage to get Wanda to the corpse (or the corpse to Wanda) then they get a cost and upkeep free but let's face it basically useless unit.

Yes, just like bats are basically useless.

Wrong. Every marbit, bat and gobwin counts.

For each wild dwagon they get Stanley to, they get a dwagon. I don't know if the costs or upkeep of dwagons has been mentioned, but it's safe to assume that it doesn't cost anything to tame it at least. The upkeep is low or nonexistant enough for Stanley to keep a large number of dwagons despite his financial troubles. And unlike decrypted marbits, dwagons are very powerful flying units. So why did Gobwin Knob lose when they had this unbalanced source of dwagons?

Financial troubles? He could afford to summon and upkeep Parson.

And it also appears that dwagons pop, but it takes time. So it could be that Stanley just couldn't make enough in time. Whereas, decryption provides units a lot faster after each engagement.

The same limitation exists for the pliers. They're primarily defensive, from what I can see. You can decrypt your fallen, and those of your invaders, but its power is sharply reduced when you start campaigning elsewhere ...

Defensive? Right now, if I were a smart warlord, I'd go barbarian hunting. In fact, I'd do hit and run attacks as fast as I could all over the map. Strike a village, kill everyone, decrypt, leave them there. Who cares that I won't be able to hold said villages, those troops cost me nothing but they will cost blood from my opponents to dislodge.

The pliers are as offensive as they get.

...because you either risk Wanda by sending her to the front lines, or you have to keep transporting corpses back to a safe place where Wanda is concealed.

No. Fast mounts- we have them. Veils- we have them. Hit, stealth decrypt and run ftw.

Either way, not any more gamebreaking than the hammer. The situation you see at the moment is the best case scenario for the wielder of the pliers, and it will never happen again.

The hammer, as we've seen it so far, functions as basically a high-level monster dwelling. The pliers can do much much more with what I've just described.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Perhaps the Decrypted can no longer receive leadership bonuses? "morale effects", in D&D terms?

I do have one question. Is an Archon still an Archon when Charles is no longer in charge?

Who's to say Charles is no longer in charge? :)

P.S. Look at the web adress its http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0159.html and OotS 159 was removed from the index. The erfworld is now at the top of the OotS index. And OotS 159 is skipped over by the arrows on 158. Thats odd, and interesting...

I visit this site through http://www.giantitp.com/comics/ootslatest.html and the corresponding erf link. That's the only way I noticed the switchup.

How long before Stanley and Wanda realize that a decrypted Parson would save them 1,000 Schmuckers per turn?

Thi is half of why we're looking for limitations. If they decrypt him, he might only be a level 2 warlord - no superintelligence.

I will only quote you, but I am actually referring to everyone in the "not overpowered, let's imagine drawbacks" crowd.

Don't you think you're clutching at straws here?

...

BUT, as I said once, what we see is Parson's hand, and it's pretty much a straight Flush. Who looks likely to have the better hand? Parson. And if someone just pulls out a Royal Flush, well in real-life sleeves would be called forth to be inspected.

Nobody's going to pull a royal flush. Drawbacks are innate to the arkenpliers, at least for my understanding of the word "drawback". And sleeves are being called forth for inspection - namely, Parson's and Wanda's. The Arkenhammer has three flaws listed in its character writeup. Two of them are useless, but they're still flaws. Is it unreasonable to assume that the Arkenpliers would also have flaws? Is it clutching at straws to assume that the game mechanic of decrypting has some nuance and subtle balances?

[Foryn Gilnith]

No. Fast mounts- we have them. Veils- we have them. Hit, stealth decrypt and run ftw.

Aside from the fact that the stealth part might break down if you need quantities of decrypted with any degree of haste, this sounds like something Parson could/would/should do. That is, if he wasn't freaked out by the mass deaths.

[Miklus]

I'm guessing, for limiting factors on the pliers:
...

2: Decrypted units no longer gain experience or levels.

...

We know that uncroaked warlords can gain levels, Stanley complained about it at some point. So why should a "decrypted" warlord not?

Each Arkentool seems to have a superunit related to it. The Arkenhammer has the dwagons, probably the best combat unit there is and they fly too. There are also several kinds. The Arkenhammer could apparently one-shot Caesar and all his little bats too.

The Arkendish has the archons. They have been seen combatting dwagons, they fly too and have all kinds of magical abilities. The Arkendish gives an enoumous strategic advantage, like having a spy sattelite network.

The Arkenpliers can also generate a kind of superunit, but unlike the other arkentools you must have a freshly croaked unit at hand. It could only generate "Unsom" because GK has just killed him the turn before. And with some trouble, I might add.

So I don't think the Arkenpliers are that overpowered. Although if used correctly, you can run amok across Erfworld momentum-style.

[BLANDCorporatio]

... So I don't think the Arkenpliers are that overpowered. Although if used correctly, you can run amok across Erfworld momentum-style.

Almost everyone keeps comparing the uber-units. I think this is wrong.

Yes, Archons and Dwagons are powerful. Suppose you have one of them, like a dwagon, and an opponent has a cloth golem.

You kill the cloth golem. The end.

Now, you with the pliers, and let's still give you a dwagon since GK has a few. The opponent has a cloth golem.

You kill the cloth golem. You have a cloth golem.

That is what makes the Pliers powerful. They don't need to summon uner-units. They summon the opponent's strength.

And considering the muscle that was thrown at GK lately, that is a lot.

Aside from the fact that the stealth part might break down if you need quantities of decrypted with any degree of haste, this sounds like something Parson could/would/should do. That is, if he wasn't freaked out by the mass deaths.

He is RUTHLESS.

(And I don't see why the stealth should break down by hasting, after all Stanley retreated in a hurry and it worked well enough for him. The only stealthy unit you absolutely need is Wanda anyway. The decrypted can be sacrificed by being left wherever they were. There's always the option to make more.)

[Foryn Gilnith]

He is RUTHLESS.

(And I don't see why the stealth should break down by hasting, after all Stanley retreated in a hurry and it worked well enough for him. The only stealthy unit you absolutely need is Wanda anyway. The decrypted can be sacrificed by being left wherever they were. There's always the option to make more.)

He doesn't seem to be acting very ruthless in the last few panels. In the battle, maybe; but perhaps after recovering he's no longer using any of the sword powers, because he no longer needs leadership and no longer wants influence on his mind.

The point is that you don't sacrifice the decrypted, because you need them for your army. If you spend a turn hitting and running from an enemy and take a handful of decrypted, your army isn't going to grow terribly fast. And keep in mind the rest of the world sees you as a threat.
Stanley had all fast units, and all hard-hitting units. The decrypted (because the purpose of the assault is to obtain them) are liable to be neither.

[Whispri]

It's good to see Wanda's getting a happy ending and the bandit army getting a seconed chance. Shame about Bogroll though.

Why this hangup on lvl 10 Warlords?

Because a level ten Warlord represents a powerful force multiplier. That's what makes the bats and other weak units dangerous.

[BLANDCorporatio]

He doesn't seem to be acting very ruthless in the last few panels. In the battle, maybe; but perhaps after recovering he's no longer using any of the sword powers, because he no longer needs leadership and no longer wants influence on his mind.

The point is that you don't sacrifice the decrypted, because you need them for your army. If you spend a turn hitting and running from an enemy and take a handful of decrypted, your army isn't going to grow terribly fast. And keep in mind the rest of the world sees you as a threat.
Stanley had all fast units, and all hard-hitting units. The decrypted (because the purpose of the assault is to obtain them) are liable to be neither.

The fact that he isn't acting very ruthless, and that Sizemore would be much opposed (maybe) to my plan, makes me suspect a future rift. A conflict between Duty and ... well, Conscience maybe.

As for sacrificing the Decrypted, why, that is what they are made for! That's the whole point!

Imagine the Dwagon strike against the siege, but now with ArkenWanda. The siege is killed, and then decrypted. Sure it is slaughtered by the next turn but it goes down fighting. No real loss for ArkenWanda, but not only did the opponent pay for those units, now he pays to kill them too, in new blood!

The possibilities are endless!

I mentioned also barbarians, and small sides, because those will be easy to obliterate and convert in a more permanent fashion. But you don't need to grow attached to your decrypted. The goal is not to grow an army.

The goal is to create, in the mind of the enemy, the FEAR to attack! To inconvenience them as much as possible, to reduce, confuse, misdirect, delay their fighting force.

Having a big fighting force yourself is just one possible solution.

And this does not even begin to address my other speculation about the state of Erfworld. The RCC is dissolved and against all odds defeated by an "impossible" multi-hex dirtamancy trap. That will leave everyone scrambling for options, and in the confusion a new alliance is not, entirely, all that likely. Everyone would first want to know what happened, who exactly had a part in it (damn those Tardy elves, that's why they didn't show up!), could they do it again, could we find out how to do it. For a few turns, Stanley should be safe.

Because a level ten Warlord represents a powerful force multiplier. That's what makes the bats and other weak units dangerous.

Agreed, but in the rush to say how hard it is to get another lvl 10 warlord everyone forgets that GK has now several, as well as the fact that those weak and useless units are actually nothing of the kind.

So I am defending the honour of Marbits, Bats and Gobwins everywhere. Laugh in your citadels but the day will come when they will mob you down! The time of the lvl 1 units is nigh!

[Bogardan_Mage]

Yes, just like bats are basically useless.

Wrong. Every marbit, bat and gobwin counts.

Marbit < Dwagon. That is the extent of my power related argument. You seem to be under the entirely mistaken impression that I had some "hang up" on level 10 warlords, no doubt stemming from my entirely mistaken impression that you actually had a logical reason for believing the pliers were overpowered.

Financial troubles? He could afford to summon and upkeep Parson.

Yes. All the while complaining how much it cost, and more importantly how little he had to spend. 500000 schmuckers would "literally empty the treasury". So 350000, the cost he actually payed, would have been some 70% of his wealth. Considering the number of dwagons he had, and how long he kept them, they'd have to be at least undercosted for their power. And if the pliers' units have no upkeep why should the hammers'?

And it also appears that dwagons pop, but it takes time. So it could be that Stanley just couldn't make enough in time. Whereas, decryption provides units a lot faster after each engagement.

But they're weaker, and they need a corpse.

Defensive? Right now, if I were a smart warlord, I'd go barbarian hunting. In fact, I'd do hit and run attacks as fast as I could all over the map. Strike a village, kill everyone, decrypt, leave them there. Who cares that I won't be able to hold said villages, those troops cost me nothing but they will cost blood from my opponents to dislodge.

The pliers are as offensive as they get.

Uh huh. And what do you get from that? Weak villages, and weak units. Not totally free, because you gave up the opportunity to send your armies to more profitable locations. A reasonable strategy, but it's not what I'd call "as offensive as they get". That rather strikes me as the most defensive approach to offense I've ever heard.

No. Fast mounts- we have them. Veils- we have them. Hit, stealth decrypt and run ftw.

Veils can be pierced. Wanda is precious. Still risky.

The hammer, as we've seen it so far, functions as basically a high-level monster dwelling.

In my very first post in this thread I said we haven't seen Stanley tame a dwagon. You are arguing that this means it must be weaker than the pliers? You are prepared to assume extensive powers of the pliers but not the hammer?

The pliers can do much much more with what I've just described.

Because we've seen them in their best possible scenario, and we haven't seen the hammer in a hex of a thousand dwagons, the pliers must be the superior tool.

This situation will never be repeated. Gobwin Knob's enemies will soon learn to counter the pliers by not allowing their dead to fall into the hands of the enemy. It seems likely (at least possible) that units can only be decrypted once, and if this is the case all your strategies become substantially less effective. Stop basing your assessment on what Wanda is doing right now and consider what we don't know: the power of the other arkentools and the true nature of decrypted.

[Gez]

Yes, just like bats are basically useless.

Wrong. Every marbit, bat and gobwin counts.

If you can get them the 10th level warlords you don't understand why people are fretting about.

Defensive? Right now, if I were a smart warlord, I'd go barbarian hunting. In fact, I'd do hit and run attacks as fast as I could all over the map. Strike a village, kill everyone, decrypt, leave them there. Who cares that I won't be able to hold said villages, those troops cost me nothing but they will cost blood from my opponents to dislodge.

Do barbarian villages really exist? What we know of Barbarians is that they're members of a defeated side who haven't been croaked or captured. If they're defeated, they don't have a village anymore, since it has been destroyed or seized by an enemy. If they still have it, then they're not barbarians.

Anyway, that plan still involve risking the source of your army -- the attuned plierer -- everywhere across the map. If you don't want to lose her to an ambush or to an enemy better defended than you thought, you'd have to conduct your attacks with overwhelming force. Which translates to a slow RCC-like column, which cannot perform hit-and-run attacks very well.

[snafu]

So I don't think the Arkenpliers are that overpowered. Although if used correctly, you can run amok across Erfworld momentum-style.

In the old Microprose strategy game Master of Magic there were many ways to create a horribly broken wizard build that would easily demolish all the AIs in a very short time even on the hardest level.

Possibly the worst of these was to spend your entire points allowance on Death spellbooks. This let you start the game with the extremely powerful Wraiths spell. It summons a unit of wraiths, which are flying, life-draining, undead-raising, game-breaking horrors.

You'd begin casting on turn 1, and pour everything you had into it to get the summoning complete as soon as possible (it takes a little while, you're supposed to be a lot more powerful by the time you get this spell). Then you'd summon your wraiths.

If you ran across a rival wizard's city early on, of course you'd take it out then and there. His small early-game garrison of spearmen would be no obstacle. Then, as someone upthread suggested, you'd go barbarian hunting. The world is littered with unaligned towns and villages at the start of the game, but none of them have anything that can fight Wraiths. When you get to the last surviving wizard, he might by then have some units that could harm Wraiths - magic weapons, or energy blasts, or such things - but you'd also be bringing with you a colossal undead horde.

(Personally I preferred the item crafter's approach. It was possible to get casting bonuses that made the creation of items and artefacts so cheap that it cost less mana to make them than you recovered from breaking them. Result: profit. By continually making and breaking cheap magic swords, you'd end up very powerful, very fast. Then recruit a hero, enchant him the most powerful artefacts you can, and turn him loose upon the world!)

[Gez]

Imagine the Dwagon strike against the siege, but now with ArkenWanda. The siege is killed, and then decrypted.

And archery gets their hitsies. On Wanda.

[SteveD]

I'm less interested in game mechanics right now then I am that the writers seem to be making a point with the Decrypted units colour scheme. We know from the toolbox that Ansom's original colour scheme was going to be identical to the soldiers (black and red).

So are these units loyal to Wanda rather then Parson or Stanley? Previously uncroaked units displayed Stanleys colours and Parson's heraldry. That these new units would display Wanda's colours and heraldry would imply they are separate from this.

From previous strips I considered it unlikely that Wanda would turn on Stanley...now I find it a distinct possibility.

Other fans have been trying to figure out the Duty mechanic; how could Stanley have committed regicide if duty bound him to his ruler? But what if attuning to an arkentool actually does what Parson/Stanley suggested; chose an Erfworlder for a divine reason to be a ruler?

What if the Arkentools grant free will?

[BLANDCorporatio]

Marbit < Dwagon. That is the extent of my power related argument. You seem to be under the entirely mistaken impression that I had some "hang up" on level 10 warlords, no doubt stemming from my entirely mistaken impression that you actually had a logical reason for believing the pliers were overpowered.

Flattery will get you everywhere !

Yes. All the while complaining how much it cost, and more importantly how little he had to spend. 500000 schmuckers would "literally empty the treasury". So 350000, the cost he actually payed, would have been some 70% of his wealth. Considering the number of dwagons he had, and how long he kept them, they'd have to be at least undercosted for their power. And if the pliers' units have no upkeep why should the hammers'?

Because the no-upkeep bit was delivered as a bit of a surprise info.

Uh huh. And what do you get from that? Weak villages, and weak units. Not totally free, because you gave up the opportunity to send your armies to more profitable locations. A reasonable strategy, but it's not what I'd call "as offensive as they get". That rather strikes me as the most defensive approach to offense I've ever heard.

Define profitable. We've seen Parson mount a strike on a siege column with good success- that was profitable. With stealth-decrypt, even more so.

Plus, having pockets of troops in places on the map can be a great asset to delay the enemy or deny, at least for some time, a patch of land or resource. Yes, this is very offensive. The point is, nothing is safe anymore. Pick any spot on the map that is lightly defended- there's got to be a few- and suddenly it belongs to you! Even if there are not many troops there, they are there to be willingly sacrificed and deliver inconvenience to the opposition. Thus, they (the opposition) can only grow weaker.

Of course you can mount conventional assaults too, with plenty of casualties and opportunities for decryption and army increase; but you don't have to think in those terms alone.

Veils can be pierced. Wanda is precious. Still risky.

Everything is risky- but this time, it looks like it's more than worth it!

In my very first post in this thread I said we haven't seen Stanley tame a dwagon. You are arguing that this means it must be weaker than the pliers? You are prepared to assume extensive powers of the pliers but not the hammer?

I argue that the hammer functions as a dwelling that produces units. I argue that the pliers function as something else, which turns out better. See a post above.

Because we've seen them in their best possible scenario, and we haven't seen the hammer in a hex of a thousand dwagons, the pliers must be the superior tool.

This situation will never be repeated. Gobwin Knob's enemies will soon learn to counter the pliers by not allowing their dead to fall into the hands of the enemy. It seems likely (at least possible) that units can only be decrypted once, and if this is the case all your strategies become substantially less effective. Stop basing your assessment on what Wanda is doing right now and consider what we don't know: the power of the other arkentools and the true nature of decrypted.

That is precisely what I am arguing against. For all I know, Jillian might be Titan and will Parson into defeat with the power of her mind. I do not base any conclusion on information not revealed yet.

What has been revealed is the power of the Pliers and until I see what weakness they are supposed to have the only rational conclusion is that they are one extremely powerful tool.

That is not all however- all of GK's assets, as well as the reasonable assumption (based on what Caesar found out from Bunny) that Erfworld is currently in a state of confusion, provide the supposedly perfect warlord Parson with enough options to curb stomp everyone with relative ease.

[BLANDCorporatio]

And archery gets their hitsies. On Wanda.

Stealth. Decrypt. Dammit!

... If you ran across a rival wizard's city early on, of course you'd take it out then and there. His small early-game garrison of spearmen would be no obstacle. Then, as someone upthread suggested, you'd go barbarian hunting. The world is littered with unaligned towns and villages at the start of the game, but none of them have anything that can fight Wraiths.

Agreed. I must confess my thinking is clouded by the HORROR that Ghosts were in HoMM2. If I could get my hand on just one of those things, no peasant stack was safe! After which, armed with 2 20k stacks of ghosts, no AI could oppose me!

[Bogardan_Mage]

Because the no-upkeep bit was delivered as a bit of a surprise info.

But not so surprising as to be unheard of.

Define profitable. We've seen Parson mount a strike on a siege column with good success- that was profitable. With stealth-decrypt, even more so.

I said "more profitable". More profitable than travelling to the four corners of Erfworld picking up weak villages. You have now applied my answer to a scenario that I was not referring to, but let's take a look at that anyway:

- Parson does his attack and retreat thing. Note that Stanley's objection is valid, the units attacking will not level. This is a (ahem :)) defensive strategy, which trades unit XP for targetting a specific type of unit (in this case, seige). But anyway:
- Wanda flies in with Jack and a fast mount to decrypt the seige. Everything else on the stack gets a chance to notice the veil (recall Transylvito's 300 chances).

More on this later.

Everything is risky- but this time, it looks like it's more than worth it!

The risk is revealling the woefully undefended cornerstone of your entire plan. There's usual risk that things don't work. This time the risk is that Wanda croaks, and your entire strategy that you place so very much stock in fails forever.

I argue that the hammer functions as a dwelling that produces units. I argue that the pliers function as something else, which turns out better. See a post above.

Dwelling? Either you're using that word to mean something other than I understand it, or your view of the hammer's function is so far removed from any other, popular or canon, that you really can't take it as fact. The dwagons don't live in the hammer.

That is precisely what I am arguing against. For all I know, Jillian might be Titan and will Parson into defeat with the power of her mind. I do not base any conclusion on information not revealed yet.

I wouldn't expect you to. However, your conclusion seems to be based on the assumption that no more information will ever be revealed. You complain that an overpowered Arkenpliers leads to a poor narrative, yet you reject all suggestions of how it might not be so overpowered. You have concluded that the story is ruined, and will not accept any other explanation. Why are you still here?

What has been revealed is the power of the Pliers and until I see what weakness they are supposed to have the only rational conclusion is that they are one extremely powerful tool.

You have seen it at its most powerful! You have, by way of comparison, seen the Arkendish make some phone calls and the Arkenhammer crack walnuts. Rather than assuming every battlefield will offer Wanda the same leisure as this one, or that the Arkenhammer is a dwelling (that doesn't even make sense!), consider the full power of the other tools. The hammer tames dwagons, much more powerful than any decrypted unit. Despite both of our baseless guesses we really don't know what restrictions are on that. The Arkendish has demonstrable power, Charlescomm is arguably the most powerful side seen in the comic.

That is not all however- all of GK's assets, as well as the reasonable assumption (based on what Caesar found out from Bunny) that Erfworld is currently in a state of confusion, provide the supposedly perfect warlord Parson with enough options to curb stomp everyone with relative ease.

Erfworld is not in a state of confusion. The Royal Crown Coalition does not comprise the entire world, Charlie's reference to the "Western Conflict" demonstrates this. Furthurmore, forces sent to the Coalition do not comprise the entire forces of the various sides. See Caesar himself and his Transylvitto buddies. Yes, Parson is no longer in charge of a doomed side. That doesn't mean he can't face challenges. He has a large army of decrypted, and a king's ransom in gems, but that's it. He's still got only the one city, and it's in ruins. That's a far cry from the entire world.

Stealth. Decrypt. Dammit!

Saying "Stealth decrypt" over and over again until it becomes even more annoying that it was to begin with won't make it any easier for Parson and Jack.

[joosy]

Whoa. More questions answered, more questions (and decrypted units) raised.

I shed a tear for Bogroll. I think he deserves a hero's burial or at least a monument. At least set a roll of toilet paper on fire and flush it down the cesspit in his memory.

Not many limits to Decryption other than having croaked bodies available and those must be in relatively one piece. Thrilling and yet ominous.

Gk now has full fledged Archons (thanks for the donation, Charlie!), Weiner-rammers, probably Altruist Elves with their natural healing abilities, etc. . Looks like Sizemore will get a huge army of cheap labor in the form of Marbits and Gobwins, complete with tunnel bonuses to create a new dungeon, tunnels and mine for gems.

On the Arkentools. I think its been mentioned before that the ones we have seen appear to align themselves to various magic disciplines on the Fate axis

Arkendish - Thinkamancy
Arkenpliers - Croakamancy
Arkenhammer - Carnymancy (guessing of course, but I think Rob and Jamie gave us hints with the 'turning pigeons to walnuts' shtick)

That would imply that even though there is one more known Arkentool, there may be four more out there.

As far as being overpowered? Maybe but I think that is the point. I'm sure when Stanley attuned and got control over Dwagons that seemed overpowered. Same for Charlie and his Archons. They may seem unstoppable until the battle tactics are changed to balance things out. In this particular case, they may only seem overpowered because everything is extremely ideal for Decryption (lots and lots of croaked everywhere, no immediate battle threat, etc.)

Pure speculation: Since Predictamancy is in the Fate axis, I would GUESS that the Faq Predictamancer may have been attuned to that particular Arkentool. That is why they were able to make such spot-on and far reaching predictions. They realized that Faq would fall eventually but that it was necessary in order to bring about Faq's vision of peace to all of Erfworld. Of course, a simpler answer would be that the Predictamancer was just uber-awesome.

Eagerly awaiting the next page. Sad that it is coming to a close, but, given the 1 or 2 page a week schedule it may be mid-summer before Chapter 1 is truly over.

[BLANDCorporatio]

I said "more profitable". More profitable than travelling to the four corners of Erfworld picking up weak villages. You have now applied my answer to a scenario that I was not referring to, but let's take a look at that anyway:

- Parson does his attack and retreat thing. Note that Stanley's objection is valid, the units attacking will not level. This is a (ahem :)) defensive strategy, which trades unit XP for targetting a specific type of unit (in this case, seige). But anyway:
- Wanda flies in with Jack and a fast mount to decrypt the seige. Everything else on the stack gets a chance to notice the veil (recall Transylvito's 300 chances).

More on this later.

No, let's settle this now. Who says that Wanda has to be there when the croaking gets done? From what we can see so far, it is possible to (all within one turn of course)

- send the shock troops (EDIT: Dwagons AND Archons apparently) against something they can easily defeat;
- NOW send Wanda; the veil is so that units further away don't see her;
- decrypt;
- retreat Wanda and you heavies, leave the decrypted.

See?

The risk is revealling the woefully undefended cornerstone of your entire plan. There's usual risk that things don't work. This time the risk is that Wanda croaks, and your entire strategy that you place so very much stock in fails forever.

I'd rather say that you aren't even trying to understand what I say. Which is why I "annoyingly" repeat stealth decrypt. My bad, I should be more clear apparently.

Dwelling? Either you're using that word to mean something other than I understand it, or your view of the hammer's function is so far removed from any other, popular or canon, that you really can't take it as fact. The dwagons don't live in the hammer.

HoMMx, and other games: "dwelling" is a structure that produces certain units. Likewise, it appears that the hammer grants Stanley the ability to pop dwagons. One just popped over GK this turn! Where did it "live"? In the sense that the hammer produces a certain kind of unit every turn (dwagon), it functions as a "dwelling".

I wouldn't expect you to. However, your conclusion seems to be based on the assumption that no more information will ever be revealed. You complain that an overpowered Arkenpliers leads to a poor narrative, yet you reject all suggestions of how it might not be so overpowered. You have concluded that the story is ruined, and will not accept any other explanation. Why are you still here?

ALL RIGHT, STRAWMAN.

If you'd have taken the time to read what I was saying, repeated to the point of "annoyance", is NOT that the story so far and up until and including now is bad. What I was saying is that, in order to remain interesting, I expect that either Parson will change sides, or Wanda will change sides, or that we will have a new protagonist hereafter.

The hammer tames dwagons, much more powerful than any decrypted unit. Despite both of our baseless guesses we really don't know what restrictions are on that. The Arkendish has demonstrable power, Charlescomm is arguably the most powerful side seen in the comic.

The Arkenpliers do something that the Hammer does not. The Hammer merely provides a powerful, but as we have repeatedly seen not invincible, unit. The Pliers open up entirely new strategic and tactical avenues for the Warlord commanding their power for which I have yet to see an effective counter.

We don't know what the Arkendish can do, true. It could have its own bonuses that are equivalent to the Pliers'. Haven't seen, won't comment.

Erfworld is not in a state of confusion. The Royal Crown Coalition does not comprise the entire world, Charlie's reference to the "Western Conflict" demonstrates this. Furthurmore, forces sent to the Coalition do not comprise the entire forces of the various sides. See Caesar himself and his Transylvitto buddies. Yes, Parson is no longer in charge of a doomed side. That doesn't mean he can't face challenges. He has a large army of decrypted, and a king's ransom in gems, but that's it. He's still got only the one city, and it's in ruins. That's a far cry from the entire world.

The RCC, meaning supposedly those sides closest to Stanley, are in a state of confusion. That is all that matters. Any other sides present in the world are a bonus for Stanley. They weren't in the RCC before, and they won't ally against Stanley in a few turns either (why would they?).

Saying "Stealth decrypt" over and over again until it becomes even more annoying that it was to begin with won't make it any easier for Parson and Jack.

Saying Marbit < Dwagon, or that you need to kill lvl 10 Warlords to be able to Decrypt them, is just as annoying trust me. This is to severely underestimate what GK can do right now.

[Natio]

No, let's settle this now. Who says that Wanda has to be there when the croaking gets done? From what we can see so far, it is possible to (all within one turn of course)

- send the shock troops against something they can easily defeat;
- NOW send Wanda; the veil is so that units further away don't see her;
- decrypt;
- retreat Wanda and your heavies, leave the decrypted.

See?

We haven't seen Wanda uncroak units in a hex that gobwin knob did not control. We can then suggest reasonably that the same would be of decrypting and that in your scenario it would require the shock troops to take the entire hex for wanda to use this tactic.

How then would gobwin knob know where there was such a hex with a suitable target? Well unless dragon units are scouting everywhere and at risk of attack or another lookamancer is popped I don't think it would be that easy.

So Assuming gobwin knob gets another lookamancer we have the following invested in your supposed "game breaking theory".

Dragons for fast movement and we can have them double as the shock troops/heavies.
A lookamancer
A high level foolamancer
And Wanda, a high level croakamancer with an artefact.

Now this is a huge amount of power and smuckers invested in decrypting as many low level units as possible and they can't be everywhere at once. They are out in the field and it is possible that running such a tactic would bring down more attention than gobwin knob would want.

[BLANDCorporatio]

How then would gobwin knob know where there was such a hex with a suitable target? Well unless dragon units are scouting everywhere and at risk of attack or another lookamancer is popped I don't think it would be that easy.

Lack of a lookamancer is a valid objection.

GK will have to do with Thinkamancy's ability to locate units (we know it works on multiple hexes, Maggie confidently announced no RCC units were left after the multi-hex trap that worked on hexes not controlled by GK).

But agreed, getting Misty nr. 2 is a high priority. (EDIT: and so is restoring the World Map Link, that was sweet!)

So Assuming gobwin knob gets another lookamancer we have the following invested in your supposed "game breaking theory".

Dragons for fast movement and we can have them double as the shock troops/heavies.
A lookamancer
A high level foolamancer
And Wanda, a high level croakamancer with an artefact.

Now this is a huge amount of power and smuckers invested in decrypting as many low level units as possible and they can't be everywhere at once. They are out in the field and it is possible that running such a tactic would bring down more attention than gobwin knob would want.

Love the scare quotes.

But glad you agree that it's a huge amount of power- because, except for the lookamancer, GK has it all. Used this way, it will not be weakened by engagements.

Now, my initial suggestion a few posts up is to "hunt barbarians". That should keep a low enough profile, until Stanley decides to take out some smaller side like maybe FoxMUD. It is reasonable to assume that nobody is planning, just yet, to gang up on Stanley again (what send our units to GK and get them obliterated again? no thanks we need to figure out a few things first).

[SteveMB]

the current behavior of Ansom seems to suggest otherwise however. And Wanda herself seems reasonably cooperative still. If anything, she seems to be liking Parson more (he not only saved her ass, but he brought about her prophecy!), and has no problem giving her new pet warlord to him as a minion.

Thinking back, that might explain Wanda's bitter outburst ("You are not... the perfect warlord. Your plans... f-fail.") even though she clearly knew better than that when pitching the plan to Stanley ("Undefeatable?" "I... don't think so."). She thought the prophecy was on the verge of being fulfilled, only to have the Arkenpliers snatched away while still just out of reach -- that would make anybody angry and bitter, at least for the moment.

It also puts a different spin on Wanda's reaction to Stanley the Tool's new title -- privately, she's probably interpreting it in terms of Stanley's role as her tool in bringing the prophecy to pass.

[Bogardan_Mage]

No, let's settle this now. Who says that Wanda has to be there when the croaking gets done?

Um, certainly not me.

From what we can see so far, it is possible to (all within one turn of course)

- send the shock troops (EDIT: Dwagons AND Archons apparently) against something they can easily defeat;
- NOW send Wanda; the veil is so that units further away don't see her;
- decrypt;
- retreat Wanda and you heavies, leave the decrypted.

See?

Are we or are we not talking about Parson's anti-seige strategy shown earlier? If we are not, then earlier my point stands. You are only going to be decrypting forces weaker than your own which, while useful, is not as gamebreakingly powerful as your scenarios that assume all forces are weaker than your own would have us believe.

I'd rather say that you aren't even trying to understand what I say. Which is why I "annoyingly" repeat stealth decrypt. My bad, I should be more clear apparently.

Do you think that veils are unbreakable? Because they are canonically not!

HoMMx, and other games: "dwelling" is a structure that produces certain units. Likewise, it appears that the hammer grants Stanley the ability to pop dwagons. One just popped over GK this turn! Where did it "live"? In the sense that the hammer produces a certain kind of unit every turn (dwagon), it functions as a "dwelling".

Ok, I was unfamiliar with that particular slang, but that seems reasonable. The use of the word "tame" suggests to me that that's not the whole story, though. But assuming you're right, Stanley is garunteed dwagons on a regular basis, while Wanda needs a fresh supply of corpses.

ALL RIGHT, STRAWMAN.

If you'd have taken the time to read what I was saying, repeated to the point of "annoyance", is NOT that the story so far and up until and including now is bad. What I was saying is that, in order to remain interesting, I expect that either Parson will change sides, or Wanda will change sides, or that we will have a new protagonist hereafter.

OR new information will be revealed that makes the pliers not quite as powerful as you now believe them to be. Why is that such a hard possibility to accept?

The Arkenpliers do something that the Hammer does not. The Hammer merely provides a powerful, but as we have repeatedly seen not invincible, unit.

So decrypted are invincible now are they? Even if they can be decrypted multiple times, it still requires Wanda to be there and yes a Foolamancer and a fast flying mount can be a good combo but it's by no means unstoppable.

The Pliers open up entirely new strategic and tactical avenues for the Warlord commanding their power for which I have yet to see an effective counter.

Then you weren't listening to me when I told you. The obvious counter is to not allow one's dead to fall into the hands of the enemy. Bogroll shows us it's possible for a corpse to be damaged beyond decryption. Maybe not all, but surely most opponents will be able to remove or destroy their dead before Wanda can decrypt them.

The RCC, meaning supposedly those sides closest to Stanley, are in a state of confusion. That is all that matters. Any other sides present in the world are a bonus for Stanley. They weren't in the RCC before, and they won't ally against Stanley in a few turns either (why would they?).

The RCC still isn't in a state of confusion, any more than Gobwin Knob is (and let's be fair, it is). They have garrisoned units still.

Saying Marbit < Dwagon, or that you need to kill lvl 10 Warlords to be able to Decrypt them, is just as annoying trust me. This is to severely underestimate what GK can do right now.

I said both of those things once, I have no intention of saying either ever again, and I said both in order to make points, upon which I elaborated when pressed. "Stealth decrypt" is a cutesy name you gave to your strategy and you seem to think it serves as a substitute for providing an actual defense of said strategy. Case in point, I was addressing your response to Gez pointing out a genuine flaw in your argument. You cannot remove a flaw by shouting "Stealth decrypt" over and over! Even if you don't understand that this is a flaw (which seems increasingly likely) your cutesy one-liner does nothing to remove this misunderstanding.

For the record, veils can be broken. That is the flaw. Saying "stealth decrypt" again won't remove it.

[Gez]

Stealth. Decrypt. Dammit!

Then you have to risk two casters, not one.

We had seen before hand that casters were overpowered. People have said that about Wanda, about Sizemore, about Jack, maybe even about Maggie.

Yet they're not used on the frontlines, usually. Parson and Stanley did because they were basically all that they had left.

Now, if casters represent such a huge tactical advantage, why aren't they used more? Because they're extremely vulnerable.

"Stealth Decrypt" it just like "Stealth Uncroak". Everything you said about the possible use of decrypting to make expendable villages of the damned here and there just to annoy your opponents apply just as well with traditional croakamancy. The Decrypted are stronger units, but given your insistence on marbits, the unit's power isn't that important, is it?

Agreed. I must confess my thinking is clouded by the HORROR that Ghosts were in HoMM2. If I could get my hand on just one of those things, no peasant stack was safe! After which, armed with 2 20k stacks of ghosts, no AI could oppose me!

There is a huge difference between that scenario and Erfworld.
HoMM2 Ghost: turns fallen enemy units into more ghosts.
Erfworld Wanda: doesn't turn fallen enemy units into more plier-wielding Wands.

There's still only one unit capable of doing the conversion. And it still takes time -- it's not like the Trioxin spell where she raised all the croaked at once, here she has to decrypt them one by one, or by small groups at most.

In your scenario of attack, win, decrypt, retreat, time is an important factor since you want to do all that in just one turn.

No, let's settle this now. Who says that Wanda has to be there when the croaking gets done?

You, when you talked about things such as attacking the column.

The Arkenpliers do something that the Hammer does not. The Hammer merely provides a powerful, but as we have repeatedly seen not invincible, unit. The Pliers open up entirely new strategic and tactical avenues for the Warlord commanding their power for which I have yet to see an effective counter.

#1. It's not a new strategic and tactical avenue, it's merely a fresh layer of asphalt on an old one. It is quantitatively better than uncroaking (units have better stats, more unit types can be raised), but it's not qualitatively new. It's just a more powerful way of doing what could already be done.

#2. We have yet to see an effective use of that avenue in the first place. Counters will naturally arise once they'll be needed.


On many points, this reminds me of similar discussions every time Parson devised a new gambit. The Donut of Doom? The entire column was going to be destroyed one by one with no loss for Parson's side. The army of undead? Now the odds were even, and Parson had the homebase advantage, the Coalition would never manage to break the walls. Dance fight bonus to the uncroaked? No way the RCC would ever offset that one. Uncroaking the volcano? Great, now Parson will ride around the world ontop of a giant volcano golem with a city in its head, belching forth lava on every army and stomping enemy defenses like ants.

[DigoDragon]

I must say I'm really liking the new coalition uniforms. The Punisher design is a classic . That Archon looks cute as well.

This. I too think the new threads are a great look for the evil side... *ahem* I mean, for Stanley's side. I also like the cute confused looks on the faces of the new troops.

[Killer Angel]

- send the shock troops (EDIT: Dwagons AND Archons apparently) against something they can easily defeat;
.

I don't want to enter in a discussion on the tactic you suggest, but i wonder what is the actual power of these decrypted archons.
We know that their effective offensive capacity was given to them by Charlie... so here we don't have overpowered archons, but only the "basic" version.

Unless Wanda can spend resources to empower them...

[BLANDCorporatio]

Do you think that veils are unbreakable? Because they are canonically not!

They are harder to pierce when there's no one left in the hex to do the piercing. Plus, since there'd be no one left to retaliate, you don't risk Wanda being attacked, and there's a good chance she's not spotted by units further away. That's the idea.

OR new information will be revealed that makes the pliers not quite as powerful as you now believe them to be. Why is that such a hard possibility to accept?

Because, somehow, it seems both unlikely and unsatisfying. I have a fear that if the Pliers get nerfed in the following strip, there'd be some kind of rushed-balanced feeling to it.

So decrypted are invincible now are they?

Nope, not invincible. Recycled. It makes all the difference, because in so being they are dirt cheap, expendable, and immensely annoying to be on the business end of.

Even if they can be decrypted multiple times, it still requires Wanda to be there and yes a Foolamancer and a fast flying mount can be a good combo but it's by no means unstoppable.

It looks like a (too) good idea to me because you can swell your ranks for no expense easily against whatever neutral units or small sides happen to be in the neighbourhood. Heck, with its new army which is almost all of RCC (considered a large force when in its prime), GK can mount conventional strikes too. But it doesn't need to limit itself to this anymore.

It has mobility, firepower on that mobility, and the ability to leave inconveniences wherever it goes. An opponent cannot be sufficiently defended everywhere. The only weakness I concede is that GK has an impaired targeting ability until they complement Thinkamancy with Lookamancy.

Then you weren't listening to me when I told you. The obvious counter is to not allow one's dead to fall into the hands of the enemy. Bogroll shows us it's possible for a corpse to be damaged beyond decryption. Maybe not all, but surely most opponents will be able to remove or destroy their dead before Wanda can decrypt them.

If they are defending, and it is GK's turn on the attack, I don't think this will work. Unless the other sides start strapping dynamite to their troops.

The RCC still isn't in a state of confusion, any more than Gobwin Knob is (and let's be fair, it is). They have garrisoned units still.

Confusion is not lack of units. I say confusion because everyone in RCC thought they had the conflict in the bag, and in the end they lost everything. It would make everyone wonder what exactly happened there. It would make them interested in finding out, true ... Maybe, just maybe, also suspicious of others as well.

Nobody will attack Stanley while they have even a suspicion that he will be able to obliterate the attacking force again.

[BLANDCorporatio]

IRT Gez, a few remarks:

We had seen before hand that casters were overpowered. People have said that about Wanda, about Sizemore, about Jack, maybe even about Maggie. ... On many points, this reminds me of similar discussions every time Parson devised a new gambit.

While I resent that implication, it's a valid point. Every once in a while, something happens and some of us will go screaming "imba"; when a counter was found, people screamed "not fair". Right?

It is unfortunate, we don't know much about Erfworld and we are getting surprised- not always pleasantly sometimes- as we find things out along with Parson.

However, at each step, it is interesting. The Donut of Doom MUST succeed, you see, the odds against GK are too bad to allow failure. If it succeeds we might just pull through this ... oops we lost Dwagons, what to do? Get back to the drawing board etc.

Right now, what I see is all the chips falling for GK. Too much is too much for me, which is why I expected that split, for what I repeatedly said were "story" reasons.

People, like you, expect a "gameplay" solution to this (perceived by me) problem of ArkenPlier UberPower (EDIT: more like GK uber-power, really). Wasn't Erfworld supposed to be not just a game, but a story? That's why I expect the solution to be story-driven, and imply that some split, or change in perspective, is necessary.

"Stealth Decrypt" it just like "Stealth Uncroak". Everything you said about the possible use of decrypting to make expendable villages of the damned here and there just to annoy your opponents apply just as well with traditional croakamancy. The Decrypted are stronger units, but given your insistence on marbits, the unit's power isn't that important, is it?

I thought uncroakeds were weaker than the originals, especially if hastily made. OTOH, it looks like Wanda can Decrypt units with lots of haste indeed, just look at the "With what army" panel.

[Opal Tide]

Lots of good discussion going on over the arkenpliers, but I think we are all rushing to judgement. We are seeing them in an ideal situation: the attuned having free range over a massive battlefield where one of the largest armies ever assembled fell. I may be wrong, but I don't think this happens every day in Erf World.

It is certainly possible that there are limitiations to the pliers: must have control of a hex, must be done inside a city etc. They are likely not very large weaknesses (after all this is a boopin' artifact), but I do not foresee the pliers being as powerful as we are seeing now in more common circumstances such as pithced battles where the enemy has the potential to withdraw from the field. At that point (assuming decrypted cannot be decrpyted again) Wanda may not be able to replace her loses on a one to one basis.

A large enough army might be able to fight a series of battles sapping a decrypted army of its strength even if the enemy forces withdrew everytime (taking a tip from Parson's tactics). Granted I do not know if such a coaltiion could be organized and led in such a way, especially with Ansom out of the picture, but Erf world is big and this area was just one corner of it (part of the "Great western conflict"). Also, don't forget Charlie still has a lot of calculations left andmight be angry enough to reduce his rates to get revenge or at least to return Erf World back to a status quo he can continue to make schmuckers off of. He is a businessman afterall and could view such actions as a long-term investment to maintain the viability of his product.

In any event, Parson has the beginnings of a very potent force. Add Stanley's new found (and hopefully long lasting) empathy and dwagons, the newly discovered financial resouces, Ansom's intimate knowledge of foriegn factions and Erf World rules and many nearby factions weakened by the coalition's defeat and Parson is sitting pretty with time and resources to build up a strong army.

Several side notes:
-Jillian and the Vamps are still around. vinnie and his crew have come out of this conflict mostly intact and how they will react to decrypted and Arkenpliers may be ani nteresting wild card.
-What is the hippymancer conspiracy's end game?
-What will be the fate of FAQ?
-will the remainig factions pull a Stanley and try to summon their own perfect warlord(s)?
-Will Red/Scarlet show up as a decrypted unit forcing fans of her to change their witty acronyms?

The answers to these questions and many more on the next Erf World!

R.Is.D.Y.

[BLANDCorporatio]

R.Is.D.Y.

"Red Is Decrypted, Yo!"/"Scarlett Is Now Decrypted, Yo!"

[mrlovanhey]

Heyyy, nice page.

I really like the stewardess hat on the skull logo on the decrypted archon's skirt.

Also, I really wonder what's going to happen when Stanley gets back. I'm beginning to believe that Wanda is completely autonomous and she is in the middle of making her own army, to be controlled and led by her. The skull logo, which seems to be hers, seems to confirm that.

So that makes me wonder because Parson is under Stanley's control, since he's his perfect warlord. Will Parson be forced to act against Wanda under orders from Stanley because Wanda's army is not under control by Stanley and Stanley is the type of guy who likes control (and owning arkentools)? If that is the case, why did Ansom state that he will act as Parson's captain. He must be able to see whether or not a unit is a member of his own side.
If they ARE on the same side, why do these unit not have Parson's logo, the hamstard? All the other uncroaked units so far have.