Erfworld 159 - tBfGK 146

[DevilDan]

In erf terms, 'artifact' vs. 'magic item' is a matter of origin, not power.

The bracer (and glasses & sword, too) was made by a spell, so technically is neither a magic item nor an artifact. It is, presumably, something new.

Wait, how do we know that they are not magic items?

[Moechi_Vill]

Wait, how do we know that they are not magic items?

They were created by Titans, if you are referring to the Arkentools.

[DoctorJest]

Jumping into the "Are the pliers overpowered?" discussion/arguement, I'd like to point some things out that I think is very important to deciding this.

Are we talking about overpowered in Gobin Knob's position, or for any side at all?

If you happen to be in possession of an entire city filled with thousands of corpses and no opposition at all... then I can see how the pliers might be considered overpowered. Under normal circumstances, however, I don't believe they are. They're just being used under currently ideal circumstances.

Alot of the "OMG!" over the pliers is because of the circumstances caused by Parson's gambit with the volcano, not because of the inherent power of the pliers themselves.

Are they powerful? You bet! They're a tool used to fashion the world itself, and as such are immensely powerful. Are they OVERPOWERED? I doubt that, especially since we haven't seen everything the other tools can do.

[DoctorJest]

They were created by Titans, if you are referring to the Arkentools.

They weren't. They were referring to Parson's glasses, calculator, and sword.

Sizemore says that the mathamancy device might qualify as an artifact. Charlie goes right out and calls it an artifact. I'm of the mind that they're probably artifacts.

[fendrin]

They weren't. They were referring to Parson's glasses, calculator, and sword.

Quite right. We know they are not magic items because they are made by the spell not 'a mortal'. Two of the three (the glasses and the armband) are things that no 'caster would ever create (the former because it replicates an ability all 'casters and warlords already have and the latter only works with Parson's watch).

Sizemore says that the mathamancy device might qualify as an artifact. Charlie goes right out and calls it an artifact. I'm of the mind that they're probably artifacts.

That depends on how an artifact is defined. If it is 'an object with magical properties not made by a mortal' then yes. However, if an artifact is 'an object with magical properties made by the titans' then no. We don't have that definition, so we don't know. It seems to me that Parson's items fall into a linguistic gap. They are technically neither magic items nor artifacts, but there isn't a word to cover that. Sizemore essentially says he doesn't know what to call it, and Charlie probably called it an artifact because that's the term Parson used in his sales pitch.

[Bogardan_Mage]

You assume they know about Wanda already. They won't at first.

No, I assume that they'll know about Wanda eventually. It only has to be eventually.

Added to that is the instance when we see Jack's veil in action (that page and the next battle pages. Bats, Transylivitan Warlords, Jillian, all primed to kill Stanley and no other distractions in all the hex. Stopped cold by "crypsis".

They weren't "stopped cold", they started trying to pierce the veil. And they pierced it, contrary to your apparent belief that it cannot be done. They didn't do so before Stanley had left the hex, it's true, but unlike your plan, my plan doesn't rely on working out perfectly in every battle. It relies on working out, by chance, once, and then never being needed again.

Everything has a risk. Based on some of the mechanics of the game, it is mitigated. Plus, "my entire" plan is an overstatement on your part. I have yet to see you comment on the intelligence gathering possibilities of the Pliers, or the rapid expansion scenario. No, a casual dismissal as "irelevant" is not a cogent argument.

Are you arguing that the other uses are broken to the extent that having them at Parson's disposal will make the story unworkable? If not, then I don't think they are relevant. And if so, I don't think you're right.

Yes, he most definitely would have eh? Read that. I don't think it says what you think it says.

But you think his opinion has changed?

The antagonist doesn't need to be superpowerful ... though it sometimes helps ... The idea rather is that GK survived a furious attack and barely escaped the jaws of defeat. You don't expect this kind of situation to result in a complete turning of the tables.

And yet it has, whether you are right about a schism or not. This line of argument baffles me, as it's quite obviously not what happened.

Agreed. It doesn't have to be a struggling underdog, it's just that GK is, and of course you can disagree with me here, far far far from the underdog right now. It's where the smart money is.

The smart money does not get placed with so many unknowns on the board. What is the position of Jetstone, of Transylvito, of Charlescomm? Gobwin Knob is in a position to rapidly recover. There are other sides in the world, though, and they are not in need of recovery.

Whoa, what? That's not just a classic, it's a staple!

Off the top of my head I can think of many epic tales that feature overpowered enemies:

Lord of The Rings
Star Wars
Erfworld Book 1 ()
Pick your favorite Cthulhu Mythos story
Matrix
Dark Crystal
Predator
Dracula
Sword of Truth
Alien
War of the Worlds
Thomas Covenant
Any Star Trek episode/move/book where they face off against the Borg
Just about every horror story ever written

I could go on, but I think my point has been made.

There is a difference between overpowered and merely powerful. None of them are gamebreakingly broken. I notice a few of them (among those with which I am familiar) have major and somewhat arbitrary weaknesses (Lord of the Rings, War of the Worlds...) I find that somewhat appropriate.

GK has got two tools. The owners of the other two tools may join forces against them, and backed by Parson's battle calculations they know when and with how many units to fight. Parson severely handicapped his own side with those promised calculations. Parson may have tough times ahead of him, at least for the next seven battles.

Besides, we have Vinny and if there's an Erfworldian that can find a way to cheat that's him.

Do you know what context is?

[teratorn]

Do you know what context is?

Maybe not, but I know when a poster is clutching at straws.

[Goshen]

Wrong.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F077a.jpg

Misty's body was moved. Not only moved, but buried in solid rock, and Sizemore knows where she is.

Woah! Can a decrypted caster cast? Probably!
It will be good to see her, again.

[BLANDCorporatio]

irt. Bogardan Mage:

I guess the only way to settle the (over)powerful issue is to play Erfworld several times and count outcomes; second best would be some spreadsheet crunching. Since none of those options is available, we'll stay undecided for a while yet.

You seem to agree that GK is in a position to rapidly recover its former strength. I say yes to that, adding that it could recover very easily at the expense of everyone else by employing all those things we've discussed (or not) about, like battle reinforcements through decryption, rapid city-rebuilding, intelligence gathering, and any ideas perfect Warlords Parson and Unsom come up with; all GK needs is competence in battle not perfection in either battle or diplomacy.

Whether Parson would gladly continue this game: here, probably not. His attitude changed, it is made obvious on his face, in his words. A klog would be definitive, but it is not necessary at this point. Can he get out of his obligation to Stanley, can someone or something cancel that, what about the other GK-ers? Something's got to give, too much build-up. We're in for an interesting Book 3 (no typo).

irt. Bogardan Mage and teratorn:

Well, I don't understand. Who's dissin' who and why?

[teratorn]

irt. Bogardan Mage and teratorn:

Well, I don't understand. Who's dissin' who and why?

Beats me... but then I don't know what context is.

[RMS Oceanic]

Woah! Can a decrypted caster cast? Probably!
It will be good to see her, again.

I do believe a klog said bodies decay completely one turn after death, if not altered by magic in anyway.

[teratorn]

I do believe a klog said bodies decay completely one turn after death, if not altered by magic in anyway.

It's not clear, «corpses which aren't uncroaked or moved just disappear at the start of the next turn.» What's moving? Picking Misty in his arms would allow her body to remain an extra turn? By moving one might be able to keep a body for a few turns. I wonder if they'd smell.

[BLANDCorporatio]

Beats me... but then I don't know what context is.

Why, I am also a chatterbot with context-free grammar, pleased to meet you!

[raphfrk]

There was an update to the wiki on this issue.

Corpses disappear at the start of their side's next turn.

[teratorn]

There was an update to the wiki on this issue.

Corpses disappear at the start of their side's next turn.

Well, but what amount of "moving" is needed? And RCC finished but units were still there in the morning.

A better phrasing would have been that they "survive" one enemy's turn.

[raphfrk]

And RCC finished but units were still there in the morning.

It is the start of their respective side's next turn, so Jetstone troops (for example) wouldn't de-pop.

However, you do make a good point. Charlie moves before GK, so the Archons should have de-popped.

A better phrasing would have been that they "survive" one enemy's turn.

Maybe, "Bodies depop at the start of their side's turn (or at dusk if their side was destroyed), as long as all sides have ended turn since the last time the corpse was moved".

[fendrin]

There is a difference between overpowered and merely powerful. None of them are gamebreakingly broken. I notice a few of them (among those with which I am familiar) have major and somewhat arbitrary weaknesses (Lord of the Rings, War of the Worlds...) I find that somewhat appropriate.

If by 'overpowered' you mean 'undefeatable' then I am right with you on none of those enemies not being overpowered. Seriously though. GK, even with Wanda and the 'pliers, is nowhere near as powerful as Sauron. I mean, Sauron was immortal. The only reason he lost the war with the elves is because his hubris got the better of him. Seriously, fighting on the front lines without using the invisibility power of the ring? Foolish. If it hadn't been for that, he never would have lost the one ring and would have had to trip and stumble into the Cracks of Doom in order to be destroyed. Stick a sword in Wanda and she's croaked. Seriously, no comparison.

[Letifer]

Hmm, the pliers would entirely change the way troops are put on the field. Looking at the old maps, troops tend to be put in groups of 8 as I believe that's the max group bonus. Doing that now means you lose. A huge group of GK can just go hex by hex through all of your troops replacing loses and adding new troops every step of the way with decrypted. Unless the enemy can mount attacks without loses (something that can be prevented with proper planning), attrition no longer applies to GK.

Zombie apocalypse for the win!

[DoctorJest]

It is the start of their respective side's next turn, so Jetstone troops (for example) wouldn't de-pop.

However, you do make a good point. Charlie moves before GK, so the Archons should have de-popped.

Nope, because Charlie joined the RCC so his turn moved to the same turn as theirs. Parson even commented on it that "our turn is next. Charlie at least did that for us by joining Ansom".

[fendrin]

Hmm, the pliers would entirely change the way troops are put on the field. Looking at the old maps, troops tend to be put in groups of 8 as I believe that's the max group bonus. Doing that now means you lose. A huge group of GK can just go hex by hex through all of your troops replacing loses and adding new troops every step of the way with decrypted. Unless the enemy can mount attacks without loses (something that can be prevented with proper planning), attrition no longer applies to GK.

Stacks of 8, yes, but you can have multiple stacks in a hex. In fact, we have no indication what (if any) limit there is to the number of units that can be in a hex.

[Bogardan_Mage]

irt. Bogardan Mage and teratorn:

Well, I don't understand. Who's dissin' who and why?

I responded to you. Teratorn responded to me stating what was basically my argument, but taking my statement out of context so it looked like I was arguing against it. It pokes rather more holes in your argument than it does mine, and I was annoyed that it was used as though it was arguing against me when I had just be arguing the exact same thing against you.

If by 'overpowered' you mean 'undefeatable' then I am right with you on none of those enemies not being overpowered. Seriously though. GK, even with Wanda and the 'pliers, is nowhere near as powerful as Sauron. I mean, Sauron was immortal. The only reason he lost the war with the elves is because his hubris got the better of him. Seriously, fighting on the front lines without using the invisibility power of the ring? Foolish. If it hadn't been for that, he never would have lost the one ring and would have had to trip and stumble into the Cracks of Doom in order to be destroyed. Stick a sword in Wanda and she's croaked. Seriously, no comparison.

So you also agree with me but think you don't? You agree that BLANDCorporatio's fears are unfounded?

[SteveMB]

Stacks of 8, yes, but you can have multiple stacks in a hex. In fact, we have no indication what (if any) limit there is to the number of units that can be in a hex.

Presumably there's some limit -- of some reason why putting too many units in a hex is a Bad Idea -- or else the multi-hex "column" formation wouldn't have existed.

[BillyJimBoBob]

[Ordering troops to "engage that caster!"] has so far proven very unsuccesful against a guarded but clearly visible and looking for trouble Sizemore- twice.

True, but not relevant to the point. You seemed to be indicating that Wanda would not be targeted until her newly expanded powers had been displayed. This is not the case. As a caster she will be attacked with whatever resources can be brought to bear against her. She looks to be a fairly significant character in Book 3 (or whenever the story resumes with GK after Book 2) and so will probably enjoy a fair amount of plot armor. But she will still be attacked as often and as vigorously as any wise opponent is able to muster.

Presumably there's some limit -- of some reason why putting too many units in a hex is a Bad Idea -- or else the multi-hex "column" formation wouldn't have existed.

Something in the game mechanics might discourage larger stacks. Such as traps, or any "AOE" type effect.

[Rockphed]

Firstly, I love Stanley's brutal takeover of Faq. Yelling "Stop! ... Hammertime." while zapping a balloon pants wearing creature just screams class. The only way to make it better would be repeated claims of untouchability.

Furthermore, while I was looking at the cast page, I noticed that both Stanley and the Arkenhammer have "Taming Dwagons" listed as strengths. Does this mean that Arkentools align with people who share at least one strength with themselves? Perhaps the power of the arkentool is determined by the degree to which the tool's strengths and those of the wielder align.

[DevilDan]

Quite right. We know they are not magic items because they are made by the spell not 'a mortal'. Two of the three (the glasses and the armband) are things that no 'caster would ever create (the former because it replicates an ability all 'casters and warlords already have and the latter only works with Parson's watch).

That depends on how an artifact is defined. If it is 'an object with magical properties not made by a mortal' then yes. However, if an artifact is 'an object with magical properties made by the titans' then no. We don't have that definition, so we don't know. It seems to me that Parson's items fall into a linguistic gap. They are technically neither magic items nor artifacts, but there isn't a word to cover that. Sizemore essentially says he doesn't know what to call it, and Charlie probably called it an artifact because that's the term Parson used in his sales pitch.

In other words, there's no real reason to believe that the spell-created equipment for Parson should not be classified as magic items, just the desire to call them artifacts. Why couldn't they be magic items? They are a byproduct of a spell created and cast by mortals.

Don't forget we are talking about two different things, the bracer, glasses, and sword are not directly what puzzles Sizemore: it's Parson's calculator watch, which uses semiconductors, "magic" from Parson's world and thus new to Sizemore.

Now what I find cool is that the items pop with the food, so that the perfect warlord spell is seen to integrate with the existing magic system that deals with upkeep, that provides food for regular Erf units.