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    Default The Surgeon- a precision dmg PrC (PEACH)

    The big orc sneered at Hajji, barely suppressing a bellowing laugh at his scrawny opponent. The man, eyes lowered, dressed in simple cloth and armed with only two slim blades, looked like easy prey. He lifted his enormous great axe, festooned with the jawbones of his fallen enemies, high above his head, ready to cleave the thin human in two. Hajji’s eyes snapped forward and, in a blinding flash, his short sword snaked forward into the monster’s green belly and viciously wrenched upwards. A wicked smile slowly spread across his face; he could tell from the orc’s gruesome shriek of pain that he had hit his mark. He had skewered the stomach, and the creature’s own digestive acids would soon do Hajji’s work for him, destroying the brute’s innards inside out.

    These terrifying swordsmen, nicknamed “Surgeons” are the masters of precision damage. After studying the anatomy of many creatures, a Surgeon knows exactly how to hit where it hurts. Surgeons are precise, graceful, coldly efficient and chillingly accurate. Unlike Fighters, the Surgeon does not focus on putting great force behind his blow to break through defenses, but rather striking the most vulnerable areas where defense is nonexistent. The Surgeon has little regard for the flashy antics of the Swashbuckler, and feels that their dynamic movements are simply a waste of energy. What use does one have for dodging when your opponent is already dead? The Surgeon is trained into often by rogues and assassins, for the nastiest strikes usually require careful positioning only attainable through stealth.

    Prerequisites:
    Weapon Finesse
    Base Attack Bonus +6
    4 Ranks in Heal

    Hit Dice: d8
    BAB: +1
    Skill Points: 4 + Int

    Level 1: Sneak Attack +1d6
    Level 2: Vital Spot
    Level 3: Sneak Attack +2d6
    Level 4: Vital Spot
    Level 5: Sneak Attack +3d6
    Level 6: Vital Spot
    Level 7: Sneak Attack +4d6
    Level 8: Vital Spot
    Level 9: Sneak Attack +5d6
    Level 10: Ravaging Assault, Vital Spot

    Ravaging Assault (Ex): The Surgeon has mastered his Vital Spots to such extremes that he can perform them in lightning quick succession, but at reduced accuracy. As a full attack action, the Surgeon may make a number of attacks equivalent to the number of Vital Spot attacks applicable to the creature, but all at a penalty of -5 to attack.

    Vital Spot: The Surgeon has mastered a vulnerable area of choice. Select one of the following special abilities when taking Vital Spot. A Surgeon cannot perform the same Vital Spot ability against a creature twice until the creature is healed. A Vital Spot attack requires finesse and accuracy rather than brute strength, so a Surgeon may only perform one when using a weapon he has taken the Weapon Finesse feat for. Vital spots cannot be used on creatures with no discernable anatomy, undead or constructs (unless otherwise noted). Vital Spots cannot be used in conjunction with Sneak Attacks- you are either trying to sneak attack for maximum damage, or striking a specific spot to attain a tactical advantage. You can only apply one vital spot to one attack per round, unless you use ravaging assault.
    Vital Spots----
    Gut Puncture- by tearing apart his victim’s digestive system, he can turn the creature’s own stomach acids against them. The surgeon deals additional acid damage to the creature. The creature must make a fortitude save every round or suffer acid damage. The DC is 10 + Surgeon class levels + Int modifier. This stops once the creature is healed. Herbivores take 1d4 acid damage per round, omnivores take 1d6 acid damage per round, and carnivores take 1d8 acid damage per round.
    Eye Gouge- The Surgeon can slash at an enemy creature’s eyes. If the attack connects, the creature is blinded for one round. Even after the blindness ends the creature suffers a -5 penalty to attack rolls and spot checks until healed.
    Hamstring- As the feat, except the Surgeon does not need to sacrifice sneak attack damage to perform it, and may perform it on a standard attack.
    Throat Slit- The Surgeon can sever a creature’s vocal cords. If the attack is successful, the creature is mute and cannot cast spells requiring a vocal component until healed.
    Cruel Strike- Whether it is an exposed groin, a soft underbelly or in the side of the neck, a Surgeon knows where to strike where it hurts. The Surgeon can deal an additional 12d4 subdual damage on a standard attack, fort save for half. The creature also takes two strength damage until healed.
    Arterial Strike- As the feat, except the Surgeon does not need to sacrifice sneak attack damage to perform it, and may perform it on a standard attack.
    Structural Damage- Although undead and constructs are magically animated and thus have no anatomically weak points for the Surgeon to exploit, a Surgeon can study up in the physics and mechanics of their movements to find structurally weak points which can impede their movement, such as an exposed, rotting kneecap, a rusted hinge or joint. If this attack is successful then the Surgeon can reduce an undead or construct creature’s dexterity by two points and their speed by ten feet.

    EDIT: Removed Backstab
    EDIT: Removed Disable
    EDIT: Changed up Eye Gouge
    EDIT: Clarified when Vital Spots and Ravaging Assault can be used
    EDIT: Clarified Gut Puncture's DC

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    Default Re: The Surgeon- a precision dmg PrC (PEACH)

    Problem - under 3.5, there is no facing - the Surgeon will never be at someone's "back". Maybe you meant "any flanking target"...
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    Default Re: The Surgeon- a precision dmg PrC (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Glyphstone
    Problem - under 3.5, there is no facing - the Surgeon will never be at someone's "back". Maybe you meant "any flanking target"...
    Oh... I never bought the 3.5E books because I'm too cheap to buy the same book twice. And I do recall facing rules being present in 3E when I read through them... or perhaps I was just assuming from having been playing 2E.

    Hmmm... perhaps it could be a maneuver? The Surgeon could flip over the target Prince of Persia style and stab the guy as he's landing behind him... Yes. It would be a move equivalent action, requiring a balance check, and if successful the Surgeon gets a free sneak attack... I will edit it now.

    EDIT: I cannot believe I wrote that, forgetting that feint does the exact same thing! I guess I can improve it by making it one entire round of attacks... I also changed it to tumble opposed to balance.

    EDIT: I think I am really too tired to be doing this kind of thing right now (I wrote the whole thing around a week ago). I will just take out the ability entirely and replace it with something that makes sense when I am not stupid.

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    Default Re: The Surgeon- a precision dmg PrC (PEACH)

    But... there's already a thing like that. It's called Improved Feint. Feinting is a standard action -- a Bluff check opposed by a Sense Motive + BAB check. Improved Feint makes it a move action.
    And if anything that maneuver would require a Tumble check.
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    Default Re: The Surgeon- a precision dmg PrC (PEACH)

    I'd suggest changing the "Disable" vital spot attack to, "The creature suffers a -5 attack bonus to attacks with that arm or appendage." It wouldn't make sense for a two-weapon fighter to have -5 to both weapons if the Surgeon only hit him once. Maybe have the Surgeon able to do as many "Disable" attacks as there are arms or appendages; and specify that it doesn't apply to bite attacks.

    I really like the description on this one. It reminded me a little of Robert Howard's descriptions of Solomon Kane. Ruthlessly efficient swordplay; not the fanciest fighter in the world but he didn't need to be.
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    Default Re: The Surgeon- a precision dmg PrC (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Telonius
    I'd suggest changing the "Disable" vital spot attack to, "The creature suffers a -5 attack bonus to attacks with that arm or appendage." It wouldn't make sense for a two-weapon fighter to have -5 to both weapons if the Surgeon only hit him once. Maybe have the Surgeon able to do as many "Disable" attacks as there are arms or appendages; and specify that it doesn't apply to bite attacks.

    I really like the description on this one. It reminded me a little of Robert Howard's descriptions of Solomon Kane. Ruthlessly efficient swordplay; not the fanciest fighter in the world but he didn't need to be.
    Hmm... the problem here is that I really want to make sure that he can only do it once... because then the Surgeon could do it to both arms of someone who is wielding a greatsword and give them -10... and if I gave him more than one use it'd mess up Ravaging Assault.

    Maybe I'll just take out Disable entirely.

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    Default Re: The Surgeon- a precision dmg PrC (PEACH)

    I don't think you need to take it out totally; just specify exactly what you want it to do. Only one attack vs wielders of 2h or ranged weapons, for -5 total. Up to (total number of attacking limbs) attacks on wielders of 1h, light, or natural weapons, for -5 on each limb.
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    Default Re: The Surgeon- a precision dmg PrC (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Telonius
    I don't think you need to take it out totally; just specify exactly what you want it to do. Only one attack vs wielders of 2h or ranged weapons, for -5 total. Up to (total number of attacking limbs) attacks on wielders of 1h, light, or natural weapons, for -5 on each limb.
    Actually now that I think about it, lowering a character's attack bonus is kind of counter intuitive compared to *blinding* them. If they have tremorsense or blindsight or whatever, then those are powerful abilities that I don't feel the Surgeon should be able to override. Furthermore, -5 to attack is quite powerful if taken straight anyways- it's like level draining a fighter by 5 levels which is nasty. Also, slicing a character's arm so that they cannot use it as effectively seems out of place in a world where a barbarian could have nine arrows sticking out of him and still be able to swing his axe five times in six seconds. Besides I already have WAY too many vital spot attacks when you can only select 5. I think I will remove it entirely.

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    Default Re: The Surgeon- a precision dmg PrC (PEACH)

    What are the class skills? I'm curious whether the Surgeon can continue being a useful rogue after switching to this PrC, or if he sacrifices his lockpicking and trap-disarming progression in order to beef up his damage-dealing abilities.

    Regardless, I like the flavor. The Heal prerequisite suggests to me that these are often people who have had genuine medical training, and the idea of a bespectacled, white-smocked doctor calmly eviscerating an opponent is pretty wicked.
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    Default Re: The Surgeon- a precision dmg PrC (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by MagFlare
    What are the class skills? I'm curious whether the Surgeon can continue being a useful rogue after switching to this PrC, or if he sacrifices his lockpicking and trap-disarming progression in order to beef up his damage-dealing abilities.
    Have not decided yet... but I'm thinking mostly the hide, tumble, move silently skills... but definitely not the open lock and disable device ones. He's going to lose skillmonkey abilities. But he's definitely getting the heal skill.
    Regardless, I like the flavor. The Heal prerequisite suggests to me that these are often people who have had genuine medical training, and the idea of a bespectacled, white-smocked doctor calmly eviscerating an opponent is pretty wicked.
    I've been juggling whether or not to add more "medical"-ness to the fluff, because I agree that an insane doctor dual wielding scalpels is pretty cool. But I don't want to make the class too entrenched in a certain profession, because otherwise it would be hard to build anything BUT the maniacal, bloodstained pediatrician with the rapier.

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    Default Re: The Surgeon- a precision dmg PrC (PEACH)

    While this class flavour-wise is very interesting, but I think it's overpowered.

    Ravaging Assault would allow for three of the vital spot attacks in one round all at your highest attack bonus. Very overpowered.

    I can't see a finesse fighter stabing through metal armour to use a Gut puncture attack.

    Blindness is very hampering, and yet you can cause it stead of a regular attack. Hitting someone in the eye in the middle of combat is nigh unto impossible, even more so if they are wearing a helmet.

    There is no way to damage vocal functions without opening the wind pipe.

    At the very least you should only be aloud to use these abilities when you would be able to use a sneak attack. You should include that these abilities, except for Structural Damage, only work if the creature has a dicsernable anatonmy. After all it's hard to gouge an ooze's eye's.
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    Default Re: The Surgeon- a precision dmg PrC (PEACH)

    I think it's slightly overpowered, mainly the ravaging assault attack. Let's take a rogue 8/surgeon 10. With the ravaging assault attack, you can use 5 vital spot attacks. 45d6 damage if all of the sneak attacks hit, along with(possibly) a gut puncture for some more d6's, 12d4 subdual damage, the target is muted, and blinded as well. 157.5 regular damage on average, 26 subdual damage on average full round sneak attack(discounting a successful saving throw) Also, if your target is blinded, this generally means that it's an easy target(as well as letting you do a full round of sneak attacks at regular BAB next round.)

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    Default Re: The Surgeon- a precision dmg PrC (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by NullAshton
    I think it's slightly overpowered, mainly the ravaging assault attack. Let's take a rogue 8/surgeon 10. With the ravaging assault attack, you can use 5 vital spot attacks. 45d6 damage if all of the sneak attacks hit, along with(possibly) a gut puncture for some more d6's, 12d4 subdual damage, the target is muted, and blinded as well. 157.5 regular damage on average, 26 subdual damage on average full round sneak attack(discounting a successful saving throw) Also, if your target is blinded, this generally means that it's an easy target(as well as letting you do a full round of sneak attacks at regular BAB next round.)
    Hmm... you're right. I never thought of combining ravaging attack with sneak attack, so the idea that 5 attacks at highest BAB leading to 5 definite shots of 10d6 never occured to me. I should define that Ravaging Assault cannot be done in concordance with sneak attack.

    The idea here, is that since all the vital spots can only be done ONCE, a surgeon could never do ravaging assault twice on the same guy. And it would only do around 3d6 acid and 12d4 (save for half) subdual, plus the damage from the five attacks and the status afflictions... the damage is not a big deal compared to what heavy fighters or mages could do at that level.

    BUT I think I need to rethink the Eye Gouge attack. Blindness is a bit overpowering, if it can be done at will. Perhaps blinded for a round? Would that make more sense?

    I can't see a finesse fighter stabing through metal armour to use a Gut puncture attack.
    Erm... this is DnD. I can't see a vorpal blade slicing the head off of a great wyrm dragon, (with the relative size of the vorpal blade being similar to a toothpick to a creature of that size) but there you go. I can't see a ranger firing five arrows in six seconds, either. The damage is not that much compared to fighters, or hell, even a normal sneak attack. And you can't do these with sneak attacks anymore (I edited it)

    Blindness is very hampering, and yet you can cause it stead of a regular attack. Hitting someone in the eye in the middle of combat is nigh unto impossible, even more so if they are wearing a helmet.
    You are correct and I am greedy and stupid. I've changed it to 1 round of blindness... enough for him to do some sneak attacks... and because of the fact that Vital Spot can only be done once to a particular creature until it is healed, he can't keep repeating this Eye Gouge->Sneak Attack combo. I'll put a -5 to spot checks that is there until the guy is healed just to make it clear. (That is, if he already has a -5 to spot checks after his round of blindness is cleared, he can't do eye gouge again)

    There is no way to damage vocal functions without opening the wind pipe.
    Yeah... that is kind of the point. But I think I will change it to muted for a round or something as well... with
    At the very least you should only be aloud to use these abilities when you would be able to use a sneak attack. You should include that these abilities, except for Structural Damage, only work if the creature has a dicsernable anatonmy. After all it's hard to gouge an ooze's eye's.
    Discernable anatomy written in. I thought I wrote it down somewhere. Oh well.

    The idea is since it is only doable once to each creature, it's balanced... since you can't really puncture someone's gut twice in a row. It's already empty on the second strike. Maybe I should make that more clear... but I really don't want to make a sneak attack dependent character (even though he does have sneak attack) because of the fact that sneak attacks are hard enough to pull.

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    Default Re: The Surgeon- a precision dmg PrC

    So... you can use an orison to heal them 1 point, then gut them again? ;D

    And no clue what those two feats are. Also, you forgot class skills.

    And the reason why I thought you could sneak attack WHILE using those vital spot attacks, is because two of them say you do not have to sacrifice sneak attack damage to do them.

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    Default Re: The Surgeon- a precision dmg PrC (PEACH)

    You might consider something based on this: The Touch of Asclepius.
    Doing:
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    Default Re: The Surgeon- a precision dmg PrC (PEACH)

    I'm a little confused- are the Vital Spot attacks used as an overlap on a normal attack? Can you use more than one per round? If not, is it a standard or a full-round action to use one?

    Also, Ravaging Assault- is it that each attack in the full attack will deal Vital Spot damage, or are you simply just getting a bunch of extra attacks for one round?

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    Default Re: The Surgeon- a precision dmg PrC (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by adriankas
    Gut Puncture- by tearing apart his victim’s digestive system, he can turn the creature’s own stomach acids against them. The surgeon deals additional acid damage to the creature. He deals additional 1d6 damage if the creature is herbivorous, 2d6 if omnivorous, 3d6 if carnivorous and up to 5d6 if the creature can digest non-organic objects and minerals or otherwise has highly acidic stomachs. This attack only works on creatures with some sort of discernable digestive system.
    I know someone whose stomach got punctured and he spent a day in agony before seeking medical help.. and it took a few days for the doctors to sort him out or something.. not sur eon the actual story, anyway, point is.. stomach acids work quite slowly, theres no real immediate damage at all, it can take days to do anything bad with natural healing rates. Maybe just give them a penalty to attacks and movement and skill checks due to pain, theres no real immediate damage.

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    Default Re: The Surgeon- a precision dmg PrC (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonmuncher
    I'm a little confused- are the Vital Spot attacks used as an overlap on a normal attack? Can you use more than one per round? If not, is it a standard or a full-round action to use one?
    Yes I need to clarify this. Vital Spot attacks should only be usable once per round, as an overlap to one attack, unless you use Ravaging Assault.
    Also, Ravaging Assault- is it that each attack in the full attack will deal Vital Spot damage, or are you simply just getting a bunch of extra attacks for one round?
    You can basically perform all your vital spot attacks in one round with ravaging assault.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobold
    I know someone whose stomach got punctured and he spent a day in agony before seeking medical help.. and it took a few days for the doctors to sort him out or something.. not sur eon the actual story, anyway, point is.. stomach acids work quite slowly, theres no real immediate damage at all, it can take days to do anything bad with natural healing rates. Maybe just give them a penalty to attacks and movement and skill checks due to pain, theres no real immediate damage.
    Hmm... I would think that there is a bit difference between a small stomach puncture and having an entire sword impale your stomach. But I do know that Gastric Acids are at 1 to 2 pH, which means that they can cause serious damage. Perhaps I'll just make it 1d6 acid damage every round until a successful fort save to turn off the damage.

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    Default Re: The Surgeon- a precision dmg PrC (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by adriankas
    Yes I need to clarify this. Vital Spot attacks should only be usable once per round, as an overlap to one attack, unless you use Ravaging Assault.
    You can basically perform all your vital spot attacks in one round with ravaging assault.


    Hmm... I would think that there is a bit difference between a small stomach puncture and having an entire sword impale your stomach. But I do know that Gastric Acids are at 1 to 2 pH, which means that they can cause serious damage. Perhaps I'll just make it 1d6 acid damage every round until a successful fort save to turn off the damage.
    Maybe change it to 1d6 per two rounds for herbivores, 1d6 per round for carnivores, etc.? I really like the flavour of having it do different damage to creatures with different digestive systems personally.
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    Default Re: The Surgeon- a precision dmg PrC (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Thray

    Maybe change it to 1d6 per two rounds for herbivores, 1d6 per round for carnivores, etc.? I really like the flavour of having it do different damage to creatures with different digestive systems personally.
    Yeah... I didn't write it in in the last edit because I hadn't decided how to vary the damage and I was juggling whether or not making it so complex was even such a good idea.

    I was thinking about how best to implement the varying degrees of damage, since I don't like "every two rounds" and using number of dice makes it overpowered (3d6 damage a round for carnivores?!) I decided on changing the damage die... 1d4 herbs, 1d6 omnis and 1d8 carns.

    I've edited it to reflect that, thanks.

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    Default Re: The Surgeon- a precision dmg PrC (PEACH)

    What about things that have a discernable anatomy, but don't need it? For example, a vampire/wight/mohrg? The Mohrg, in particular, will doubtfully notice a ruptured stomach....it has intestines dangling out of its mouth...

    Oh, and what exactly is the save? Did you mean DC=class levels? Or DC=10+Class levels+Int modifier?
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    Default Re: The Surgeon- a precision dmg PrC (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Glyphstone
    What about things that have a discernable anatomy, but don't need it? For example, a vampire/wight/mohrg? The Mohrg, in particular, will doubtfully notice a ruptured stomach....it has intestines dangling out of its mouth...

    Oh, and what exactly is the save? Did you mean DC=class levels? Or DC=10+Class levels+Int modifier?
    I'll edit it to include undead... as for the DC, definitely the latter. I meant specifically SURGEON class levels, so the max DC with the former would be 10, which is pretty easy in and of itself.

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    Default Re: The Surgeon- a precision dmg PrC (PEACH)

    Herbivores take 1d4 acid damage per round, omnivores take 1d6 acid damage per round, and carnivores take 1d8 acid damage per round.
    Herbivores tend to have more and bigger stomachs than carnivores, and they also break down tougher substances.

    The only things I noticed missing were Noogie, Charlie Horse, and Indian Burn. ;D

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    Default Re: The Surgeon- a precision dmg PrC (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Spuddly

    Herbivores tend to have more and bigger stomachs than carnivores, and they also break down tougher substances.

    The only things I noticed missing were Noogie, Charlie Horse, and Indian Burn. ;D
    Ah yes, but Herbivores do a ton of chewing, so they need less potent acids in their stomachs. Carnivores swallow their food whole. Yes it's true that cellulose is harder to break down than proteins, but herbivores have developed special mechanisms to break down those plant fibers. No matter how acidic the stomach is, cellulose isn't going to break down into glucose... instead, many herbivores have cecums which harbor bacteria that break down the cellulose for them. For example, the cow has four stomachs. And that's why they chew their cud: they need the extra chewing to break down the cellulose. On the pH scale, a carnivore's stomach is much more acidic. In fact, vegetarians compare human stomach pH with carnivore and herbivore stomach pH's in order to prove that we are supposed to be vegetarian.

    As for the latter abilities: that sounds like great material for Project C.U.T.E. No I'm serious. Post those as feats there or something.

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Devil

    Join Date
    Apr 2006
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    Metro Manila, Philippines
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    Default Re: The Surgeon- a precision dmg PrC (PEACH)

    This is kind of out of the blue, but I'd suggest raising the skill prereq. 4 ranks is very easy to get, even at CC, and 4 ranks in Heal does not guarantee that you immediately know how to strike vital organs in combat.

    Either that, or somehow tie in Heal ranks like the Bard ties in Perform to its abilities. That way, your Surgeon can hurt and heal. ;D
    "You can never have enough dakka."

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Surgeon- a precision dmg PrC (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pyre
    This is kind of out of the blue, but I'd suggest raising the skill prereq. 4 ranks is very easy to get, even at CC, and 4 ranks in Heal does not guarantee that you immediately know how to strike vital organs in combat.

    Either that, or somehow tie in Heal ranks like the Bard ties in Perform to its abilities. That way, your Surgeon can hurt and heal. ;D
    I don't think there are enough classes who have heal as a class skill.

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Halfling in the Playground
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    Jul 2006
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    Default Re: The Surgeon- a precision dmg PrC (PEACH)

    Mods, please move this thread into Homebrew? Thank you!

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