What was the point of Celia?

[B. Dandelion]

Am I the only one who finds myself looking back on this past arc and wondering what purpose Celia's inclusion to the main storyline was supposed to serve?

Why was she there, narratively speaking? What did she do that was of real significance?

Obviously, she provided a different perspective to the group. But not only was it not really insightful, it didn't seem like it was SET UP to be insightful. Most of the time, it wasn't her and Haley disagreeing but having equally understandable viewpoints -- most of the time, it was her being ridiculously naive, and Haley at worst being callous. By itself, that might not have been so bad, but she's self-righteous on top of it, assuming the worst about Haley and blaming her for Belkar's excesses. That's not the formula for a sympathetic POV.

Personally, I continually found myself wanting to sympathize with her, wanting some excuse to do so, but it never really materialized. Her decision to promise away half of Haley's earnings, ill-gotten or not, in 622/623 was the final straw -- those people she's using Haley's money to resurrect, for the express purpose of buying off her OWN professed guilt, died because Haley and Belkar killed them to save her when she'd gone into Greysky after having been warned explicitly not to do so. I'm as bleeding-heart as they come and I'd call that a bitch move.

I might have agreed with her reaction to Haley's slaughter of Crystal later on, since by my terminology you might guess I didn't exactly approve of it (though it was very possibly neutral rather than evil), but of course that's the one time her opinion is unavailable.

So what was she there for, then? Her character didn't change or develop. Her impact on the plot was limited to her service as "exposition fairy" in Azure City and carrier of the Idiot Ball into Greysky -- was that it, really?

I sort of doubt she was brought in for comic relief.

What I'm thinking is that she might have been brought in either to signal or possibly even kick off future development for Haley. It may sound lame, but I'm wondering if the hair thing is supposed to be symbolic. One of the few times we see real closeness between Haley and Celia is when they braid one another's hair. Then Crystal cuts it, for revenge when Haley made fun of her own short haircut. Celia is even more upset over the cut than Haley herself, and afterward....

Haley, in rejecting everything Celia stood for, starts becoming more like Crystal. Thus, sort of redeeming Celia in the process?

Anyone else been wondering about this?

[Katana_Geldar]

Why was Celia in there? Let's take a little walk down memory lane...

Firstly, she was Ms Exposition as she provided the party with the information about Dorkuan at her first introduction (or soon thereafter). Next, she served as a nice way to get the Linear Guild on a bus.

Second, there was the trial, and bringing her back as the party's defence counsel is much better than bringing in a new character they have no relationship with. Also, she was Roy's love interest to show how much he had grown as a character after the whole Miko crush thing and as a little reward for him.

Her third purpose was again, Ms Exposition, revealing the information about the Cloister spell and giving Haley a little push to get going with Roy's body. Then, Celia stayed as she wanted to see Roy restored back to life and was not sure if Haley could do this, given her non-appearance in the Monster Manual perhaps. From then on, Celia showed a a rather different morality as well as a sort of comic "babe in the woods" sort of character when she was in Greysky City.

And now, given that Roy has been resurrected and the Order of the Stick is once together again, she can go safely on her way to the bus stop.

Oh, and as for the hair. Haley and Celia were braiding each others hair, and giving themselves pedicures, because they were bored. And hair is a big part of a girls' identity, particularly if you have a big chop after having it long. It's a little hard at first seeing yourself in the mirror as that's not the picture of you you carry in your head.

[Lissou]

Celia was there because Haley needed to learn about the Cloister spell (and so did the readers), as she needed a reason to leave Azure City. She'd still be over there otherwise, and nothing that happened to her and Belkar away from Azure City would have happened.

Then, she stayed, because upon learning her boyfriend had been killed, it wouldn't have made much sense for her to go "well, bye then, I'll be my way, drop me a call if my boyfriend is raised".
Of course, she was also instrumental into going to Greysky, which Haley wouldn't have done otherwise, and whatever resulted (Roy becoming a golem, Haley owing money to the guild, Haley killing Celia Crystal, Belkar being cured from his MoJ disease and faking character development as a result of his sickness...)

[Boogastreehouse]

All good points, but I think she served another purpose as well.

She allowed Rich to explain how morality works in his setting. She reminds us, for instance, that good people in our world can't run around killing people just because those people are evil, but good people in the stick-world can.

One of the Giant's themes in this story is contemplating what a society would really be like if evil and law and chaos and good were tangible, measurable forces.

Celia provided a different perspective so the characters could debate the topic. She may have been annoying, but she fulfilled a vital role. Our deeper understanding of how morality works in this setting will make us appreciate even more whatever events are coming up.

[Katana_Geldar]

There is nothing wrong with using characters as vehicles. It's pretty much the entire point of NPCs anyway.

[Totally Guy]

Haley killing Celia,

That bit was awesome!

[Katana_Geldar]

Here's another thing about Haley's hair: people with naturally red hair usually don't like it, but everyone else thinks the colour is beautiful.

[73 Bits of Lint]

carrier of the Idiot Ball into Greysky -- was that it, really?

You act as if this were a minor thing. Celia led Haley and Belkar into Greysky, setting up Haley's reunion with her archrival, Belkar's vision quest and recovery (resolving a subplot that's been going on for ages), and leading to the Sending spell that partially reunites the Order (resolving another long running subplot).
Celia may have been obnoxious, quarrelsome, self-righteous, generally ignorant and a poor team player, but she kept the plot on track (like a certain other female B-lister).

[B. Dandelion]

You act as if this were a minor thing.

It is.

Haley and Belkar are traveling north, toward Cliffport, where they will pass Greysky en route. Greysky just happens to be the home of Haley's old Guild. We need a reason to contrive their entrance into the city -- that's not a setup that requires something major or exotic.

Celia led Haley and Belkar into Greysky, setting up Haley's reunion with her archrival, Belkar's vision quest and recovery (resolving a subplot that's been going on for ages), and leading to the Sending spell that partially reunites the Order (resolving another long running subplot).

Which tells us why Greysky was important. Not why Celia was important.

Celia may have been obnoxious, quarrelsome, self-righteous, generally ignorant and a poor team player, but she kept the plot on track (like a certain other female B-lister).

Getting the team to Azure City was considerably more difficult (requiring a "ludicrously complex" plot, to use Rich's own words), and Miko's impact on the plot was far more lasting -- not to mention it continued far beyond her role as "railroad conductor."

[Kaytara]

Celia may have been obnoxious, quarrelsome, self-righteous, generally ignorant and a poor team player, but she kept the plot on track (like a certain other female B-lister).

I see it! Upon her death, Miko reincarnated and merged with Celia!

It does sort of make you question Roy's taste in women...

[B. Dandelion]

Oh, and as for the hair. Haley and Celia were braiding each others hair, and giving themselves pedicures, because they were bored. And hair is a big part of a girls' identity, particularly if you have a big chop after having it long. It's a little hard at first seeing yourself in the mirror as that's not the picture of you you carry in your head.

There's potential symbolism to hairstyle changes. For one thing they're a way to provide narrative distance from earlier events. There's also an additional symbolism to a hair cut that is administered against one's will.

What I'm trying to do is establish a specific link to Haley's cut and Celia. Not sure if that's an idea with any traction, but hey -- it's hardly the zaniest theory floating around.

[LuisDantas]

Am I the only one who finds myself looking back on this past arc and wondering what purpose Celia's inclusion to the main storyline was supposed to serve?

Why was she there, narratively speaking? What did she do that was of real significance?

IMO she was spot-on perfect to expose the character flaws of Belkar and, mainly, Haley, who is a lot more self-righteous than she ever admits. That seems to me to be a setup for characters arcs for Haley and possibly Belkar. Given how weak the setup for Vaarsuvius' arc was, that is a welcome move.

Granted, I am apparently very much in a minority here. Most people seem to blame Celia, not Haley or Belkar. I don't quite get why.

Obviously, she provided a different perspective to the group. But not only was it not really insightful, it didn't seem like it was SET UP to be insightful. Most of the time, it wasn't her and Haley disagreeing but having equally understandable viewpoints -- most of the time, it was her being ridiculously naive, and Haley at worst being callous. By itself, that might not have been so bad, but she's self-righteous on top of it, assuming the worst about Haley and blaming her for Belkar's excesses. That's not the formula for a sympathetic POV.

Haley is a lot more self-righteous than Celia ever was. Come to think of it, so is Belkar, and so are most other characters.

Sometimes I can't help but wonder why Celia is so ill-liked.

Pesonally, I continually found myself wanting to sympathize with her, wanting some excuse to do so, but it never really materialized. Her decision to promise away half of Haley's earnings, ill-gotten or not, in 622/623 was the final straw -- those people she's using Haley's money to resurrect, for the express purpose of buying off her OWN professed guilt, died because Haley and Belkar killed them to save her when she'd gone into Greysky after having been warned explicitly not to do so. I'm as bleeding-heart as they come and I'd call that a bitch move.

I don't. I blame Celia for failing to notice the rather obvious danger signs of the situation that made Roy's corpse a Golem. But other than that, she has lots more sympathy from me than Belkar, and a significant amount more than even Haley. The way Haley handled the Guild Siege situation lost her a lot of points with me, with her callous self-righteousness and her puzzling (and dangerous) failure to reign on Belkar.

I might have agreed with her reaction to Haley's slaughter of Crystal later on, since by my terminology you might guess I didn't exactly approve of it (though it was very possibly neutral rather than evil), but of course that's the one time her opinion is unavailable.

Because by that point Celia was lying outright to Celia. The Giant's intent seems (to me at least) to be to highlight how dangerous is Haley's current path.

So what was she there for, then? Her character didn't change or develop.

But she did, very much so indeed. She compromised her principles for expediency's sake, for one thing. She learned not to expect too much acceptance from the likes of Haley and Belkar. She apparently even sobbered up for how unlike her path is from that of Roy.

Her impact on the plot was limited to her service as "exposition fairy" in Azure City and carrier of the Idiot Ball into Greysky -- was that it, really?

Nope.

[jidasfire]

Haley? Self-righteous? The girl who constantly talks about how she's not a good enough person and fears people will hate her if they know the real her? For that matter, Belkar? Belkar has no concept of what righteousness is, so there's really no way he could consider himself such. Inigo Montoya is spinning in his grave, sir.

In my opinion, the reason for Celia was to test Haley's skills as a leader. On one hand, she had Belkar, a CE death machine who, while useful in combat situations, made everything else harder because of his belligerence and selfishness. On the other hand, she had Celia, a LG Pollyanna who considers the adventuring standard of life and death, which most gamers and OOTS readers take for granted, to be horribly immoral. She was useful in non-combat situations, but made any dangerous situation harder because of her naivete and passiveness.

Haley was stuck in the middle. She needed them both, but neither would compromise with each other, or her for that matter, on everything. Your mileage may vary on how well she succeeded, but I think Haley did a decent, if not perfect, job of balancing the two extremes. It did, perhaps, leave her a little burnt out on leadership.

[Teddy]

Haley and Belkar are traveling north, toward Cliffport, where they will pass Greysky en route. Greysky just happens to be the home of Haley's old Guild. We need a reason to contrive their entrance into the city -- that's not a setup that requires something major or exotic.

Haley had a hundred reasons to stay away from Graysky City, and Belkar wasn't capable of traveling on his own. Haley wouldn't ever touch Greysky ground wouldn't it be because of Celia.

[Kish]

Haley? Self-righteous? The girl who constantly talks about how she's not a good enough person and fears people will hate her if they know the real her?

Talks to herself and never admits uncertainty to anyone else except, very recently, Elan, you mean?

I didn't get the impression Rich sat down with the idea "Haley is right and Celia is wrong" (or, for that matter, "Celia is right and Haley is wrong"). Each regards the other's moral stance with contempt--they don't understand and they don't want to understand any better than they do. The money thing just makes me laugh (Someone in Haley's group stole from her, it's hilarious!) and since Haley's never shown so much as a twinge of guilt for the times she stole from the rest of the Order--including Elan--I find the fact that she thinks she's entitled to frame her protest in terms of "You had no right!" incredibly hypocritical.

[Elan's Modron]

Well, certainly this comes down to a matter of personal tastes
& whatever that old Latin quote is: "de gustibus non disputem est" - (which I know I just butchered there- forgive me spirits of Cato & Virgil)

a.k.a. "Your Mileage May Vary."

I liked Celia, and *because* I do, I won't particularly argue her case, because - if I like her, and some of y'all don't- so what? (Be forewarned though- my dad is a secret agent man, and can beat up all of your dads.)

So- I won't really argue her case here- because again- everyone's gonna have their own opinion anyway- but I will say- in addition to many of the excellent points made by threaders before me:

-I appreciated Celia as an outsider, from another plane entirely- it's that old trick that Tolkien did- of referencing vast other stories and backgrounds - which ventilates the main narrative, and gives narrative depth. It's a way to imply infinity.

-Plus, I like anything that smacks of Planescape! I'd love to see more of the other OotS-verse planes- as I said on another thread.

-And finally, I like how ALL the OotS characters are mixed bags. *Everyone's* got both their irritating traits and their personal charm. All the PCs are irritating to varying degrees, and all the villains have some moxie or style you can't help but admire...

(Me and my buddy once used to write and direct an online animated series called "Piki & Poko"- and the greatest compliment anyone ever paid me was when they said "I like it because your heroes are as interesting as your villains.")

My two c.p.s

[Godskook]

Maybe, just maybe, Celia's inclusion isn't a 'literary technique'. Maybe Celia is included because that's what the Giant believes is the most logical turn of events? You know, give the story a sense of realism?

Actually, that's a form of literary technique too, but still a possibility.

[theinsulabot]

Maybe, just maybe, Celia's inclusion isn't a 'literary technique'. Maybe Celia is included because that's what the Giant believes is the most logical turn of events? You know, give the story a sense of realism?

Actually, that's a form of literary technique too, but still a possibility.

try to avoid occam's razor around here, most people seem to take simple direct answers as an insult.



i dont even know if i am kidding

[factotum]

I think it's reasonably clear that the Giant always knew Celia was going to be summoned at SOME point, or else he wouldn't have put the Chekov's Gun of the summoning talisman into the strip. As already pointed out, maybe the whole reason for that was to give Haley a reason to go into Greysky and have the run-in with the Thieves' Guild; I think we'll have to wait and see if the commentaries in the next book confirm that before we can be sure, though.

[Harr]

Aside from the fact that Celia was the one who told Haley about Cloister and forced her to leave Azure City in the first place (something said very early in the thread which OP seems to be ignoring), the strip is partly a comedy; comedy involves the protagonists getting into ridiculous/weird situations that can be mined for jokes and humor.

Without Celia, Haley and Belkar on their own would never have gotten into half the stuff that they did; it was fine to see them bumbling around and making huge mistakes in the early phases of the strip (e.g. Belkar's "when in doubt, set something on fire"), but nowadays and after all they've been through it would fall pretty flat to still see them continue to do that kind of stuff at every turn. Thus they needed someone to push them into doing that stuff for them. Enter Celia.

And yes, it's perfectly obvious to everybody that the stuff that Celia did COULD have been done by someone else, or another contrivance COULD have been found, but the Giant chose to do it through Celia, just as he MIGHT have chosen to do it through anything/anybody else had he wanted, and that's not a question of whether something is better or necessary... it's just a question of what the Giant chose to do.

[Kaytara]

The money thing just makes me laugh (Someone in Haley's group stole from her, it's hilarious!) and since Haley's never shown so much as a twinge of guilt for the times she stole from the rest of the Order--including Elan--I find the fact that she thinks she's entitled to frame her protest in terms of "You had no right!" incredibly hypocritical.

Just out of curiosity, when did she actually steal from the group? All I remember is the "ordinary rock with no value whatsoever" incident after the first book.

Off-topic: Elan's Modron, your avatar is hilarious. :) I only now really took a close look at it in connection to your username... XD

[Elan's Modron]

Off-topic: Elan's Modron, your avatar is hilarious. :) I only now really took a close look at it in connection to your username... XD

[Shale]

In Dorukan's dungeon, she stole a potion from...Roy, I think? The "My father was a first-edition thief" incident. And the time she looted an entire room, pried gems out of a statue, etc, and passed the gains off as "feminine hygiene products" to avoid giving her teammates a share.

[Sewblon]

Someone had to tell Haley about the cloister spell so she and Belkar would leave Azure City and the rest of the order could track them down, and if she never went into Greysky City Belkar would still have the Mark of Justice and still wouldn't get to do anything most of the time.

In Dorukan's dungeon, she stole a potion from...Roy, I think? The "My father was a first-edition thief" incident. And the time she looted an entire room, pried gems out of a statue, etc, and passed the gains off as "feminine hygiene products" to avoid giving her teammates a share.

She stole the potion from Belkar.

[Kaytara]

In Dorukan's dungeon, she stole a potion from...Roy, I think? The "My father was a first-edition thief" incident. And the time she looted an entire room, pried gems out of a statue, etc, and passed the gains off as "feminine hygiene products" to avoid giving her teammates a share.

Oh, right. Can't believe I forgot that... Probably because it was back in the early strips.

[LuisDantas]

Haley? Self-righteous? The girl who constantly talks about how she's not a good enough person and fears people will hate her if they know the real her?

That does not relate to the matter much, now does it?

For that matter, Belkar? Belkar has no concept of what righteousness is, so there's really no way he could consider himself such.

That is true. Partially because he is so strongly self-righteous that he may be incapable of conceiving of any other way of being.

Inigo Montoya is spinning in his grave, sir.

Uh?

In my opinion, the reason for Celia was to test Haley's skills as a leader. On one hand, she had Belkar, a CE death machine who, while useful in combat situations, made everything else harder because of his belligerence and selfishness. On the other hand, she had Celia, a LG Pollyanna who considers the adventuring standard of life and death, which most gamers and OOTS readers take for granted, to be horribly immoral. She was useful in non-combat situations, but made any dangerous situation harder because of her naivete and passiveness.

Haley was stuck in the middle. She needed them both, but neither would compromise with each other, or her for that matter, on everything. Your mileage may vary on how well she succeeded, but I think Haley did a decent, if not perfect, job of balancing the two extremes. It did, perhaps, leave her a little burnt out on leadership.

A fair analysis.

[B. Dandelion]

try to avoid occam's razor around here, most people seem to take simple direct answers as an insult.



i dont even know if i am kidding

A simple direct answer such as

Celia's inclusion wasn't a 'literary technique'. She was included because that's what the Giant believed was the most logical turn of events, to give the story a sense of realism.

Would not at all have seemed insulting. Whereas, if a response such as...

Maybe, just maybe, Celia's inclusion isn't a 'literary technique'. Maybe Celia is included because that's what the Giant believes is the most logical turn of events? You know, give the story a sense of realism?

...is insulting, it's not because he's using Occam's Razor.

IMO she was spot-on perfect to expose the character flaws of Belkar and, mainly, Haley, who is a lot more self-righteous than she ever admits. That seems to me to be a setup for characters arcs for Haley and possibly Belkar. Given how weak the setup for Vaarsuvius' arc was, that is a welcome move.

That's why I've been talking about her potential application in future arcs. If she starts to look more relevant later on, that's a sort of "retroactive justification" for her inclusion, which seems empty to me at this point in time.

Haley is a lot more self-righteous than Celia ever was.

What makes you say this? As I'm going back over their altercations, I'm continually struck by how Haley will always graciously concede a point to her in their arguments, even if she's angry or annoyed. "You make a convincing argument," "that's actually a really good point," and she doesn't gloat when Celia makes a really stupid mistake by doing something she'd warned her against. The same CANNOT be said in reverse. Celia never concedes anything, graciously or otherwise, and whenever she's right she rubs it in.

I don't. I blame Celia for failing to notice the rather obvious danger signs of the situation that made Roy's corpse a Golem.

That's not really what I'm talking about. I'm talking about how Haley told her not to go to Greysky, which she did anyway, and in doing so endangered all of their lives to the point that Haley had to kill a number of people in order to save her. Then, feeling guilty over the lives she'd indirectly helped take, she freely offers up Haley's own money. Please note that she never did anything of the sort for Solt Luryurg -- she was content to let his body grow cold by the side of the road, and why? Because she could blame Belkar and Haley for it. But because she feels bad about the thieves that died as a result of her own stupidity, she thinks that gives her the right to rob Haley.

That's what I'm pissed about.

The way Haley handled the Guild Siege situation lost her a lot of points with me,

In what aspect? I'm curious.

and her puzzling (and dangerous) failure to reign on Belkar.

What was she supposed to do with Belkar? While I'll admit I wasn't exactly thrilled with this either, I draw a blank in trying to come up with alternatives. Leaving him after the incident with the Oracle was a good move, surely? Not her fault her memory got wiped. And she had no idea afterwords what had happened or that his condition wasn't temporary.

Because by that point Haley was lying outright to Celia. The Giant's intent seems (to me at least) to be to highlight how dangerous is Haley's current path.

I don't know, if anything, it seems like a contrast to the situation re: Vaarsuvius and Hinjo. V leaves it out and Elan points out that their need to lie to Hinjo about it is probably a good sign there was something screwed up about her actions. Haley doesn't tell Celia simply because she doesn't want to hear her carping about it. Unlike Hinjo, Celia has no authority (even a quasi-authority) over the group, and she doesn't have a compelling need to know about what happened to Crystal, while Hinjo certainly had several reasons for needing to know what had happened to Kubota. V's out of line. Haley? Not so much, or at least, if she's out of line it's not evidenced by that particular aspect.

But she did, very much so indeed. She compromised her principles for expediency's sake, for one thing.

What are you referring to?

She learned not to expect too much acceptance from the likes of Haley and Belkar.

I wouldn't call that "growth".

She apparently even sobbered up for how unlike her path is from that of Roy.

I didn't get the sense she really came to any kind of significant growth in understanding there. She started with "I don't understand all the violence" and ended with "I don't understand all the violence."

[spargel]

That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about how Haley told her not to go to Greysky, which she did anyway, and in doing so endangered all of their lives to the point that Haley had to kill a number of people in order to save her. Then, feeling guilty over the lives she'd indirectly helped take, she freely offers up Haley's own money. Please note that she never did anything of the sort for Solt Luryurg -- she was content to let his body grow cold by the side of the road, and why? Because she could blame Belkar and Haley for it. But because she feels bad about the thieves that died as a result of her own stupidity, she thinks that gives her the right to rob Haley.

That's actually a good point.

[Warren Dew]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet: she provided a mechanism for character interaction after Belkar's curse was triggered. Without Celia, Haley would have been basically solo for half the arc, which is probably enough strips for internal monologue to become really old.

[Tannhaeuser]

Just a couple of little matters of detail.

It's "de gustibus non diputandum est", where disputandum is a gerundive indicating necessity or desirability. (Sorry, Pavlovian response on the part of an old Latin teacher.)

It was Belkar from whom Haley stole the potion, in The Benefit of a High Bluff Score. As she did it to save Elan's life, I personally am willing to forgive her, especially as Belkar was the victim.

On the main point, my own opinion is that Celia is not one of the Giant's most vividly realized characters. She does come across more as a device than as a person. I don't love her; I don't hate her. I don't think about her much.