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  1. - Top - End - #301
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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: Twilight - Love it, or Hate it?

    Quote Originally Posted by DamnedIrishman View Post

    Stardust & Coraline - adolescents
    For months now this has been in my mined and I have to get it out there (I just quoted so you would know what triggered it)

    [singing] Sweat Coraline/ dun dun da[/singing]
    Quote Originally Posted by ToySoldierCPlus View Post
    Now you're attempting to model physics when arguing your case for armor made by a guy who explicitly tells the laws of physics to sit down and shut up whenever he starts tinkering stacking with regular armor. Stop that.
    Miny city!
    Industrial miny city!
    transportation!
    round one, fight!

  2. - Top - End - #302
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    Default Re: Twilight - Love it, or Hate it?

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoeKun View Post
    There are two problems here. The first one is academic. In schools, books are thrust quite insistently into children's hands. They are told to read x number of pages by next class. There will be a test. In short, it's made into work. Busywork, at that. And a funny thing about people is that, normally, they don't like work. So what are we doing in school? We're teaching kids to hate books.

    Case in point: Wuthering Heights. Nearly everyone has read it. Most people hate it. The ones I've met who don't? Read it outside the context of high school. The very environment stifles the book. You can't help but hate it in school, its so inextricably linked to all those stupid book reports.
    I think a major problem with book reports is that too often you're told what to write. You have to write on a certain work, and you have to write a certain thing about it, or one of a few certain things about it. That greatly increases the chances that the student won't be interested in writing those things about it. This was a major problem I had in one of my college classes, where we had three essays, each of which had to be on a certain book. Didn't like the book or weren't that interested in it? Too bad! Had lots of ideas for an essay on a book we read in the course, but wasn't one of those three? Too bad! The worst was the essay on The Canterbury Tales, where we were given three passages from it (each of about 20 lines or so, can't remember exactly) and had to write about one of them. Had a great idea for an essay on The Canterbury Tales but it wasn't on something in those three passages? Too bad!

    The best way to assign an essay is to have there be several works to choose from, to give a list of possible topics that they can choose from, but to let students pick their own if they okay it with the teacher. That dramatically increases the chance they'll actually find something they're interested enough to write about, rather than (like me) having to think of how I can write for four pages on the description of the Squire in the General Prologue, a topic I have no real interest in.

    Notably, I got much higher grades on my essays in the classes where we WERE given a broader range of things to write about. Because, you know, I actually found something I was interested in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa View Post
    Interestingly enough I met a 15 or 16 year-old girl who read the Twilight novels. When I found this out I told her about the time Ebednezzer McCoy dropped a Soviet spy satilite right on top of the Red Court's warlord Duke Ortega.
    That was awesome. I still maintain The Dresden Files is the best contemporary example of how to write vampires.

  3. - Top - End - #303
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Twilight - Love it, or Hate it?

    Quote Originally Posted by DamnedIrishman View Post
    When I say that, I don't mean caucasian. I mean literally shiny, sparkly white. Everyone in heaven is shiny sparkly white perfection. Description of the angel Moroni who appeared before Joseph Smith:

    (from wikipedia)


    On the topic: Twilight teaches Mormonism?
    This is another bit that looks into it while trying to rip the series a new one.

    Fairly image heavy and on Livejournal. Also, obviously, spoilers

    V: Note, the link's content is not content that I produced or assembled. I am not sure if you actually think I did or not from the way we sometimes use "you." I do agree with several of your sentiments though.
    Last edited by Coidzor; 2009-06-03 at 11:03 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
    +3 Girlfriend is totally unoptimized. You are better off with a +1 Keen Witty girlfriend and then appling Greater Magic Make-up to increase her enhancement bonus.
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  4. - Top - End - #304
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    Lord Seth's Avatar

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    Default Re: Twilight - Love it, or Hate it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    This is another bit that looks into it while trying to rip the series a new one.

    WARNING: Fairly image heavy and on Livejournal. Also, obviously, SPOILERS
    That's honestly awfully formatted. The technique some people use on youtube or other video sites to basically give a speech and have the video be random shots of things that vaguely relate to the words they're using works okay in video format (heck, Yahtzee makes a living off of it). After all, the images are just there for fun, to give your eyes something to be entertained by while your ears are, but trying to render that same thing into a text post just makes you look, well, rather foolish. There's more images than there is TEXT in that thing, and I honestly gave up trying to read it because the writer simply doesn't seem to understand that what works in a video doesn't work on a text post. Pictures are fine, but there shouldn't be more pictures than there is text, especially when the pictures are almost entirely pointless.

    In a video, the images/sound sync up nicely and that's what makes the effect work. Neither one interrupts the other. In a message board post, the images instead continually interrupt the text. It looks very bad and to me is a case of not understanding the medium in which you're trying to communicate.

  5. - Top - End - #305
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Twilight - Love it, or Hate it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hadrian_Emrys View Post
    In regards to the movie:
    1. It was a fair amount better than the book. That, alone, is a warning sign. Movies should NEVER overshadow the base material.
    I challenge that statement; Fight Club is my favorite movie and is, in fact, considered better than the original novel even by the author. Further proof: Princess Bride.

    Just, like to chime in the discussion and note that one of the most amusing vampire depictions I saw were in the fiction work Tales Of The Sun Sin, which lampooned all the vampire existential angst/melodrama.

    Observe:

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    Vampires: Back when the universe was young and the Sun Sin was only a millennium or two old, there existed a small, relatively modern planet known simply as “Snerk.” The population utilized both magic and technology to further their needs and to create a comfortable society. During this age of utopia, the people of Snerk immersed themselves into the wide variety of literature that became available when art replaced manual labor as the more highly demanded occupation. A very renowned writer at the time was Malace Grim, a crotchety old man who delighted in the sadistic treatment of his characters and the wicked wonders that lurked in the shadows.

    Grim wove a fantastic series of stories that gained a wide array of positive reviews and an unbelievably large group of cult-like followers. What was the subject of Grim’s fantasy story? A creature of purest malevolence, one that feasted on the blood of the innocent and fled from the rising sun. A beast that was so forsaken, so wretched, that he could not bare touch the symbol of God nor the water most blessed. Yet this creature was not without it’s powers. Charming, seductive, and with enough super-human strength and speed to make your stereotypical comic book super heroes blush, the monstrosity unleashed havoc upon townsfolk and their live stock before returning to his keep, fangs glistening a eerie crimson in the pale moonlight. Come sunlight the villagers would find that their own kin had taken the shape of the monster. The disease spread like wild fire and before long the entire world was said to be enveloped in the hatred and bestial hunger that could only come from the “vampire.”

    Malace Grim soon died, but his readership refused to. Not content to let the story end, those obsessed with his work strived to revive the tales of bloodsucking and raw power that Grim skillfully wove. Teens and young adults that were shunned by society flocked to the basements of their parents, dressed themselves as fiends of the night, and performed ritualistic ceremonies of mock battles and slaughter known among the more skeptical circles as “LARPs.”

    Yet these false idols were not pleased with merely imitating their hero. In a manic fit of passion, the wealthier members of Grim’s fan-cult pooled their resources and targeted the greatest magicians and biologists on their planet. Incomprehensible sums of money were offered to the greatest minds accessible if they could create a virus that gave them all the strengths and weaknesses of the mythical vampire. Though such mutilation of the human body was both sinful under the eyes of God and the constant vigilance of the newly formed Sun Sin, it is an undeniable truth that every man has his price; and the magicians’ and scientists’ hunger for wealth and prestige was well sated. They toiled day and night to master the human form only to tear it apart and reconstruct it. After much tears and bloodshed the vampirism disease, a thing of ancient sorcery and modern science run afoul and an abomination of the natural order, was finally finished and issued to all those still willing to receive it.

    Pandemonium burst out as superhuman monstrosities roamed the street with the only thought on their minds being the blood of mortals. Bullets and explosives seemed to simply go straight through the villains, with the only thing capable of killing them being the morning sun, items of blessed origin, a blade through their heart, or the removal of their head. It wasn’t long before half the planet’s population was infected with the disease.

    Understandably furious at this disregard for human life, the Sun Sin stood up to the bloodsucking horrors and easily tamed them with their superior magic. Those responsible for creating and unleashing the virus were punished appropriately while the innocent victims were sent to uninhabited planets to live in peace until a cure was found.

    For millions of years the myths and legends of vampirism spread throughout the universe, even reaching the ears of unaware planets, such as Earth. Hungry for fresh new ideas for the next earth-shaking story, writers imitated the work of the late Malace Grim until the word “vampire” became a household name on nearly every known planet. When a cure for vampirism was finally made some rejected it in favor for their new found fame. Total aversion from sunlight and an unquenchable blood lust was worth universal recognition, they reasoned.

    A constant cycle of affliction, spreading, and death followed the path of vampires. Though they are few in number thanks to the easily accessible cure and the perpetual hunting by wizards, vampires have been known to live happy, even productive lives. Those who live by a strict diet of sheep’s blood are more than welcome among the tower planet as missionaries and diplomats. “Welcome” being the operative word; vampires are the butt of many a joke from wizards and battle mages who view their angst and disdainful view of life as entirely too “emo.”


    Apparently, that was created before all the Twilight rage.
    "Power is merely the faculty to act. It is a kinetic quantity few can grasp. The deaths of these fanatics costs me nothing. I can replace them. Because I never stop moving."

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  6. - Top - End - #306
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    DamnedIrishman's Avatar

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    Default Re: Twilight - Love it, or Hate it?

    Quote Originally Posted by SITB View Post
    I challenge that statement; Fight Club is my favorite movie and is, in fact, considered better than the original novel even by the author. Further proof: Princess Bride.
    Except for the ending in Fight Club.
    Last edited by DamnedIrishman; 2009-06-04 at 10:34 AM.
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    Default Re: Twilight - Love it, or Hate it?

    Quote Originally Posted by SITB View Post
    I challenge that statement; Fight Club is my favorite movie and is, in fact, considered better than the original novel even by the author. Further proof: Princess Bride.
    Don't forget Gone With the Wind. I've variously heard the novel described as 'tedious', 'dull', and 'thick' by more avid fans.
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    Default Re: Twilight - Love it, or Hate it?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Tygre View Post
    Don't forget Gone With the Wind. I've variously heard the novel described as 'tedious', 'dull', and 'thick' by more avid fans.
    I've occasionally heard the same sentiments about the movie.

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  9. - Top - End - #309
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    Default Re: Twilight - Love it, or Hate it?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Tygre View Post
    'tedious', 'dull', and 'thick'.
    Like most Twilight fans.

    I'll admit that there are exceptions to the rule I spoke of, but that's all they are. When a film is better than the book because it IMPLIES a depth of interpersonal connection that was never included in the source material, there is something seriously wrong here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Innis Cabal View Post
    Toho has retroactive powers of awesome. He makes things that he hasn't done, and have already happened, better by his existence
    Quote Originally Posted by Ganurath View Post
    If anything, the term should be What Would Toho Do?
    Of course, in all situations the answer is Be A Badass.

  10. - Top - End - #310
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    Default Re: Twilight - Love it, or Hate it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hadrian_Emrys View Post
    Like most Twilight fans.
    OHHH SNAP.

    OH NO YOU DI'ANT!

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    Default Re: Twilight - Love it, or Hate it?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Tygre View Post
    Don't forget Gone With the Wind. I've variously heard the novel described as 'tedious', 'dull', and 'thick' by more avid fans.
    Gone with the Wind is also a bunch of racist, sexist, romanticized Confederate propoganda with about as much literary quality (and historical accuracy) as your high school history textbooks. If you've gone through History 101 at any halfway-decent college, you know how much BS goes into those books.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
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    Default Re: Twilight - Love it, or Hate it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth View Post
    Gone with the Wind is also a bunch of racist, sexist, romanticized Confederate propoganda with about as much literary quality (and historical accuracy) as your high school history textbooks. If you've gone through History 101 at any halfway-decent college, you know how much BS goes into those books.
    You seem to carry some rather potent vitriol for books that are traditionally quite highly regarded. I'm not especially interested in dissuading you from your opinions, but your particular word choice has been interesting.

    Rather than discussing your enmity, what would your personal recommendation be to someone asking you about books with artistic and literary merit?

    edit: the more I post in this thread, the more sesquipedalian I seem to become. I need to make a less formal post before I start wanting to smack myself... <.<;;
    Last edited by PhoeKun; 2009-06-04 at 06:22 PM.

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Twilight - Love it, or Hate it?

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoeKun View Post
    You seem to carry some rather potent vitriol for books that are traditionally quite highly regarded. I'm not especially interested in dissuading you from your opinions, but your particular word choice has been interesting.

    Rather than discussing your enmity, what would your personal recommendation be to someone asking you about books with artistic and literary merit?

    edit: the more I post in this thread, the more sesquipedalian I seem to become. I need to make a less formal post before I start wanting to smack myself... <.<;;
    Pssh, we lahv you Phoe, and you know it. Just be yourself, and be happy with it.

    On topic: Pedophilia+Necrophilia= Wrong... Twilight embodies that.

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    Default Re: Twilight - Love it, or Hate it?

    It wouldn't bother me if the world didn't keep flashing it in my face every three days.

    Join twilightsucks.com (if you want to)
    Last edited by littlequietguy; 2009-06-15 at 10:57 PM.
    Thanks Dogmantra for the two-face dressed up as him.
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    Thanks to Nevitan for the Two Scale Dragon Avatar!
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    Thank you Nevitan

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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Twilight - Love it, or Hate it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth View Post
    Gone with the Wind is also a bunch of racist, sexist, romanticized Confederate propoganda with about as much literary quality (and historical accuracy) as your high school history textbooks. If you've gone through History 101 at any halfway-decent college, you know how much BS goes into those books.
    I'm gonna' go ahead and assume you're talking about the book. Don't make this about the movie man. The movie didn't hurt you. And if you think -it's- racist, I dare you to look up a little book called 'Wind Done Gone'. There are places in Georgia, GEORGIA, that have banned this book.
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    Flumph

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    Default Re: Twilight - Love it, or Hate it?

    Quote Originally Posted by bluewind95 View Post
    And... that's why I find Twilight to be so fascinating... but at the same time... I find it very frightening.
    Great post, very insightful. I read the series as it came out, thought they were pleasant to read and finished the series. At the same time as enjoying them, many of the events and the characters were shallow, disturbing, or ridiculous and I didn't know why I liked the books except for the general feeling of enjoying the read.

    I disagree with those who say that the writing is bad. It's difficult for me to write clearly. Even when the plot was strange or jumpy, she made it easy to follow and created a sense of action or excitement with her words (except book 4). Reading the books was very smooth and her skill at writing is excellent. I agree with the poster who said that the powers make sense a lot better than other series and are well thought out.

    It's the story that is bad in my opinion. I think it portrays warped values or actions that are wrong as being good and presents an immature, shallow viewpoint.

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    Default Re: Twilight - Love it, or Hate it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Parlity View Post
    I disagree with those who say that the writing is bad. It's difficult for me to write clearly. Even when the plot was strange or jumpy, she made it easy to follow and created a sense of action or excitement with her words (except book 4). Reading the books was very smooth and her skill at writing is excellent. I agree with the poster who said that the powers make sense a lot better than other series and are well thought out.

    It's the story that is bad in my opinion. I think it portrays warped values or actions that are wrong as being good and presents an immature, shallow viewpoint.
    Not to put too fine a point on it, but... her skill at writing is far from excellent. It is bad. Actually, factually, bad.

    To wit: she does not have control over her language, and her books are stuffed to capacity with unnecessary words. Themes, lines, words, and descriptions are repeated ad nauseum, occasionally even in rapid-fire succession. Largely, these fall on Bella's attempts at describing her darling Edward, but it's quite common throughout the books. These are the marks of amateur writing, and the Twilight series would be drastically improved if she were to take pruning sheers to her published drafts. Compare her writing to, say, Robert Olmstead (for the sake of dropping a lesser known name), and it becomes easier to understand.

    You may be wondering how it is that the books read so "smoothly" if the writing is indeed as bad as I'm accusing it of being. Luckily, I've got an answer. Stephanie Meyers (I keep seeing it written both ways, does it have the s or not? Arg!) is not an idiot, by any stretch of the imagination. She has a very screwed up sense of romance and what is acceptable behavior, but she's not stupid. She's able to conceive of a story from start to finish, and she doesn't need to wrestle with grammar to pound out her sentences. What she writes does nothing to get in the reader's way. She does not move carefully, but she does move in a straight line from beginning to end. There's almost nothing but the story, that goes a long way to making it "flow". You will encounter nothing in Twilight more difficult to read than a Golden Age comic book. It can't help but read steadily, the poor thing tripped and fell down a hill at the very start. There's no way to get lost, and the pace can neither slow down nor speed up.

    If Twilight can be praised, then the thing to praise it for is containing a whiff of mystery and wonder that will make most readers turn the next page. One cannot say she did not have an interesting idea for a story. Everyone has one novel in them, and nearly everyone has at least enough skill to put it out on the same level as Twilight. However, not everyone can find that one story inside them, so Ms. Meyers deserves some credit for unearthing what she did. But there's no value, no substance to Twilight. The writing is not good. It's merely there.

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    Default Re: Twilight - Love it, or Hate it?

    Forgive my (as of late, rather characteristic) drive-by posting, but I have only this to contribute:

    Buffyverse, Dresden, The Lost Boys. These are the only worthwhile steps away from Nosferatu.
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    <-I won this from Dr. Bath.
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    Default Re: Twilight - Love it, or Hate it?

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoeKun View Post
    Not to put too fine a point on it, but... her skill at writing is far from excellent. It is bad. Actually, factually, bad.

    To wit: she does not have control over her language, and her books are stuffed to capacity with unnecessary words. Themes, lines, words, and descriptions are repeated ad nauseum, occasionally even in rapid-fire succession. Largely, these fall on Bella's attempts at describing her darling Edward, but it's quite common throughout the books. These are the marks of amateur writing, and the Twilight series would be drastically improved if she were to take pruning sheers to her published drafts. Compare her writing to, say, Robert Olmstead (for the sake of dropping a lesser known name), and it becomes easier to understand.

    You may be wondering how it is that the books read so "smoothly" if the writing is indeed as bad as I'm accusing it of being. Luckily, I've got an answer. Stephanie Meyers (I keep seeing it written both ways, does it have the s or not? Arg!) is not an idiot, by any stretch of the imagination. She has a very screwed up sense of romance and what is acceptable behavior, but she's not stupid. She's able to conceive of a story from start to finish, and she doesn't need to wrestle with grammar to pound out her sentences. What she writes does nothing to get in the reader's way. She does not move carefully, but she does move in a straight line from beginning to end. There's almost nothing but the story, that goes a long way to making it "flow". You will encounter nothing in Twilight more difficult to read than a Golden Age comic book. It can't help but read steadily, the poor thing tripped and fell down a hill at the very start. There's no way to get lost, and the pace can neither slow down nor speed up.

    If Twilight can be praised, then the thing to praise it for is containing a whiff of mystery and wonder that will make most readers turn the next page. One cannot say she did not have an interesting idea for a story. Everyone has one novel in them, and nearly everyone has at least enough skill to put it out on the same level as Twilight. However, not everyone can find that one story inside them, so Ms. Meyers deserves some credit for unearthing what she did. But there's no value, no substance to Twilight. The writing is not good. It's merely there.
    THIS. This right here... Is why I fan boy over Phoe. :3
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    Default Re: Twilight - Love it, or Hate it?

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoeKun View Post
    You seem to carry some rather potent vitriol for books that are traditionally quite highly regarded. I'm not especially interested in dissuading you from your opinions, but your particular word choice has been interesting.

    Rather than discussing your enmity, what would your personal recommendation be to someone asking you about books with artistic and literary merit?

    edit: the more I post in this thread, the more sesquipedalian I seem to become. I need to make a less formal post before I start wanting to smack myself... <.<;;
    Don't worry about the formality - that's just your style ^_^

    I don't necessarily hate all of "the classics" - this thread has just happened to bring up a couple I've got axes to grind against. Specific books I'd reccomend - classic or modern - include:

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    The Invisible Man, 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea (and anything else by Jules Verne), The Portrait of Dorian Grey, A Conneticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court, American Gods (and anything by Neil Gaiman), Good Omens: The Nice and Accurate Prophecies of Agnes Nutter (Witch), Lolita, Sailor Nothing, House of Leaves (be careful with that one - it doesn't even buy you a drink before it rapes your brain), The Modern Prometheus (I prefer that title, so sue me), Stargirl (and its sequel), Watchmen (see also V for Vendetta)


    The list goes on and on and on.

    Are you sure you didn't mean to ask me what, specifically, I'm looking for in "good" literature?


    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
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    Default Re: Twilight - Love it, or Hate it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth View Post
    Are you sure you didn't mean to ask me what, specifically, I'm looking for in "good" literature?
    That would probably start a discussion that would derail this thread even further.

    That is to say, Twilight has nothing to do with standards of quality in literature.

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    Default Re: Twilight - Love it, or Hate it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth View Post
    Don't worry about the formality - that's just your style ^_^

    I don't necessarily hate all of "the classics" - this thread has just happened to bring up a couple I've got axes to grind against. Specific books I'd reccomend - classic or modern - include:

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    The Invisible Man, 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea (and anything else by Jules Verne), The Portrait of Dorian Grey, A Conneticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court, American Gods (and anything by Neil Gaiman), Good Omens: The Nice and Accurate Prophecies of Agnes Nutter (Witch), Lolita, Sailor Nothing, House of Leaves (be careful with that one - it doesn't even buy you a drink before it rapes your brain), The Modern Prometheus (I prefer that title, so sue me), Stargirl (and its sequel), Watchmen (see also V for Vendetta)


    The list goes on and on and on.

    Are you sure you didn't mean to ask me what, specifically, I'm looking for in "good" literature?
    Thank you kindly.

    And yes, I'm quite sure I asked you the appropriate question. The books themselves should give me an idea of what it is you look for in a narrative. And as an added bonus, any titles I do not recognize can now go on my "to read" list. It's win/win! ^_^

    Quote Originally Posted by Night Surgeon View Post
    THIS. This right here... Is why I fan boy over Phoe. :3
    Quoted for unalienable truth.
    I... have a fanboy? Since when?
    Last edited by PhoeKun; 2009-06-04 at 11:57 PM.

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    Default Re: Twilight - Love it, or Hate it?

    Like I said, be careful with House of Leaves. An additional heads-up - Sailor Nothing is a web original.

    Two questions: One, does anyone want to start a thread discussing good literature in general and two, what do you, Phoe, look for in literature?


    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhoeKun View Post
    Not to put too fine a point on it, but... her skill at writing is far from excellent. It is bad. Actually, factually, bad.

    To wit: she does not have control over her language, and her books are stuffed to capacity with unnecessary words....

    The writing is not good. It's merely there.
    I agree with your comment on the grammar, however I think that is part of the good writing. That the writing is merely there serves to better make Bella a see-through non-character, referring back to bluewind95's point that the books are a wish-fulfillment for the reader. The broken sentences and repeats make it read more like the reader is Bella, not listening to Bella's story in her words. I believe bluewind95 wrote something to this effect.

    In my experience, my thoughts come in sentence fragments, they wander around, I get distracted and do not think a cohesive paragraph about a topic. When I think of something, my thoughts are frequently repeats. I have mostly the same opinion of a person when I meet them again. I see those as strategies to help the reader pretend to be Bella.

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    Par, my friend, you're not going to win this particular debate. There is an objective standard for good writing, mechanically speaking. Stephenie Meyer has failed to meet that standard. Thus, her writing is bad. That's about as complex as that point goes.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth View Post
    Par, my friend, you're not going to win this particular debate. There is an objective standard for good writing, mechanically speaking. Stephenie Meyer has failed to meet that standard. Thus, her writing is bad. That's about as complex as that point goes.
    Quoted for truth. *shrug*

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth View Post
    The Modern Prometheus (I prefer that title, so sue me)

    Really? I mean, I agree with the title, but the book was crap.

    I mean, talk about a book badly in need of an editor...

    It's all personal taste, I guess. Hell I liked Eragon. The first time I read it. Which was when I had my brain off. Yeah, second time through I was like what is this crap?

    ... wow, so off topic in an already totally off topic post replying to an already off topic post. Talk about having your brain off.

    My theory on why we all hate Twilight so much? It's not about the messed relationships or the bad writing, there's tons of stuff out there like that. And it does so bringing in lots of scary fangirls who are, I'll freely admit, worthy of much taunting.

    We revile Twilight because it intrudes on the domain of the Geek, on Buffy, Nosfaratue, Carpe Jugulum and the Maskarade. I think we all react so... defensively to Twilight because we are, more or less, a semi-opressed subculture. And we're both proud and ashamed of our position on the social ladder. And because of that, we see a lot of infighting. On this forum you can see Wizards vs. all other classes, Powergamers vs. Roleplayers, 3rd vs. 4th ed. D&D and a few other running battles, which are subsets of the other geek wars, ala this. So yeah, anyway, the only main reason 'we' (by which I mean me, my invisible friends, and anyone who agrees with me) like to rip on Twilight is because she chose to write about one of 'our' topics but got a bunch of screaming tween girls to read it, and so connected 'our' topic, even retroactivally, not to Bela Lugosi but to Edward the Shiny and his cult. Anything else is justification, but not causation. That said, if it had been good we'd probably all be defending the damn thing, but if it were good, mass popularity with the wrong demographics wouldn't be an issue.

    Yeah, it might all be crap, but I got an essay out of it. Think I still have it somewhere around here.

    ... I got off topic with in my post, but it somehow placed me on the thread topic.
    Last edited by The_JJ; 2009-06-05 at 12:19 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth View Post
    Par, my friend, you're not going to win this particular debate. There is an objective standard for good writing, mechanically speaking. Stephenie Meyer has failed to meet that standard. Thus, her writing is bad. That's about as complex as that point goes.
    I'm not debating or fighting, and therefore have neither won nor lost. I'm trying to discuss and praise bluewind95's insightful essay while adding in my own comments. In my view, english grammar has no relationship to good writing or good storytelling (and good books can be written in other languages). Good writing serves the purpose it was intended for. What objective standards are you thinking of for good writing? I have never heard of any universal standard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parlity View Post
    I'm not debating or fighting, and therefore have neither won nor lost. I'm trying to discuss and praise bluewind95's insightful essay while adding in my own comments. In my view, english grammar has no relationship to good writing or good storytelling (and good books can be written in other languages). Good writing serves the purpose it was intended for. What objective standards are you thinking of for good writing? I have never heard of any universal standard.
    While it's true that there is no objective standard of writing, there is one that is subjective but is accepted enough that many people consider it objective; this is true of all art. Fundamentally, criticism is reaction, and reaction is, obviously, largely individual.

    However, very few would laud Meyer as a literary giant; few of the people whose lives are based or literary criticism regard her as competent, honestly, including myself. I know how much the average person cares for a literary critic's opinion, but still.

    That is not to say that using fragmentation is not a powerful aim - Joyce pioneered it and it has by no means died with modernism - but that does not excuse failures in other regards, namely euphony, syntax, diction, and pacing. Some writers can pull off sentence fragments and come off as terse and visceral, e.g. Cormac McCarthy. But it's difficult, very difficult, to do so without either coming off as completely amateurish or confusing. Grammar is order, and the mind is predisposed towards order, and moreover grammatical rules are reinforced constantly. The stigma attached to transgression is significant, reinforced throughout schooling and editing and life in general. It is either difficult to surmount or, when a book is otherwise as inelegant as Meyer's are, impossible.

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    Default Re: Twilight - Love it, or Hate it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Parlity View Post
    I agree with your comment on the grammar, however I think that is part of the good writing. That the writing is merely there serves to better make Bella a see-through non-character, referring back to bluewind95's point that the books are a wish-fulfillment for the reader. The broken sentences and repeats make it read more like the reader is Bella, not listening to Bella's story in her words. I believe bluewind95 wrote something to this effect.

    In my experience, my thoughts come in sentence fragments, they wander around, I get distracted and do not think a cohesive paragraph about a topic. When I think of something, my thoughts are frequently repeats. I have mostly the same opinion of a person when I meet them again. I see those as strategies to help the reader pretend to be Bella.
    "It's like that on purpose" is not a justification for it being there, although it tends to be a common misconception among writers (and readers too, don't despair). What purpose is served in taking your main character and compressing her into a blank doormat for every reader to walk on and squeeze themselves into? What do you take away from wish fulfillment? What makes the book worthwhile?

    Now, while those rhetorical questions are busy demonstrating why Twilight has no place in the literary canon, I'll take the time to talk a little bit more about why the writing is bad. If you stop and take a close look at a few sentences here and there (the cheapest examples remain any time Bella dotes on Edward). Notice the diction, or at least the attempt. People do not talk like this. They do not think like this. It is not so much that Meyers has skillfully crafted a Choose Your Own Adventure book and torn out all the bad endings as it is that she was not able to create a protagonist with a strong personality. She is in full-on writer mode, but she lacks the skill to translate this into anything except a nice diving cage for herself (and as a consequence, her readers) to go swimming with the sharks on an escapist vacation. The books are hollow. They are empty. And if they are designed to be hollow and empty, then they are designed to be bad.

    There is a distinctive difference between enjoyable writing and good writing. Good writing will change something about you for having read it. Enjoyable reading might do this, but it will probably fall far short of the mark. Good writing is skillfully arranged and organic. It feels real when it needs to, looks at the world as more than a tool for revealing plot, and gives purpose to every character and conversation. To dig deeper in the vault than anyone has dared so far in this thread - if you read Chretien de Trois, you have read good writing (a word of warning: you will also have read literature that is many hundreds of years old. It may lack for a modern flow and rhythm to your eye). If you have read Stephanie Meyer, you have not.

    And if you subscribe to the subjectivist belief that good and bad are all and always in the eye of the beholder, then your opinion counts for infinitely more than mine, and have no reason to speak to any of you for any reason on this subject. I personally find that idea maddening, don't you?

    edit: Ozymandias gets a coupon for one free hug, for being the most eloquent ninja I did ever lay eyes upon.
    Last edited by PhoeKun; 2009-06-05 at 01:29 AM.

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