Twilight - Love it, or Hate it?

[Finn Solomon]

Metaphor or not, that WAS the plot of Order of the Phoenix.
Not really a tenuous or peripheral issue

Even so, it's one book in a seven book series. In opposition not of a teacher, but a government official being handed a role as a teacher in order to force ideas into the minds of students. A government known to be corrupt and morally wrong. In that case it's not so reprehensible.

[Lord_Gareth]

Dude, are you seriously ignoring my points here? 'Cause I'm about to get irritated up in here...

[Finn Solomon]

Also,
This MAY just be me, but i always thought that the interplay of father/son dynamics was a more important part of star wars, that fat people blowing up.

Precisely my point. The redemption of a father is the unifying theme of Star Wars series, just as the unhealthy relationship between Bella and Edward is the unifying theme of the Twilight series. However one is uplifting, while the other is perverse.

[lisiecki]

Even so, it's one book in a seven book series.

...

Yes...

ONLY in OftP do Harry and the rest plot against Snape.
How silly of me to take such a minor plot line, that in no way runs though all the books.

And was not the focus of the marketing for the last book, in any way...

How foolish of me to draw from such minutia

[lisiecki]

Dude, are you seriously ignoring my points here? 'Cause I'm about to get irritated up in here...

What...
you REALLY expected me to look up ANYTHING you suggested while using that sarcastic Go on. I'll wait thing?

While I disaggre with Finn he is presenting arguments in a mature and respectful way. I hope that he feels that i am doing the same.

I am not going to spend my time looking at websites that are suggested by some one whos going to be sarcastic.

[Lord_Gareth]

*Sigh*

Bold italics is emphasis, sir. I've spent a lot of time on both of those sites, and I knew precisely what you'd find there. In any event, sarcasm or not, it's not polite to ignore someone's points in a debate - and believe me, if I was being sarcastic, you'd know.

[Finn Solomon]

...

Yes...

ONLY in OftP do Harry and the rest plot against Snape.
How silly of me to take such a minor plot line, that in no way runs though all the books.

And was not the focus of the marketing for the last book, in any way...

How foolish of me to draw from such minutia

Snape? I thought you were referring to Umbridge. Since you've decided to fight your battle in the Potter arena, it is my task to defend it. *dons armour*

Book 1: No plotting against Snape specifically, but a concerted effort to keep a WMD-like device out of enemy hands.

Book 2: Trying to figure out who was attacking their fellow students. Stole some polyjuice potion ingredients, but that's about it. Plotted more against Malfoy.

Book 3: On the run under the threat of a convict. Snape actually helps them in this one.

Book 4: Triwizard tournament, escaping from Voldemort. Not much time to plot against Snape.

Book 5: Umbridge.

Book 6: Gearing up for the fight against Voldemort. Plotted more against Malfoy.

Book 7: Not even in school.

Seriously, plotting against teachers isn't the half of it. They're so wrapped up in other things.

[lisiecki]

*Sigh*

Bold italics is emphasis, sir. I've spent a lot of time on both of those sites, and I knew precisely what you'd find there. In any event, sarcasm or not, it's not polite to ignore someone's points in a debate - and believe me, if I was being sarcastic, you'd know.

Yes.

I would know.
I'm aware that i would know, because I noticed it when you were sarcastic before.

[Lord_Gareth]

*Prays for patience, as he already has two forum infractions*

Firstly, I was not being sarcastic.

Secondly, my first post with regards to your argument contained nothing that could even be construed as sarcasm.

And thirdly (warning: actual sarcasm ahead): pot calls kettle what?

[lisiecki]

Secondly, my first post with regards to your argument contained nothing that could even be construed as sarcasm.

If it had nothing that could be construed as sarcasm, how did i construe if for sarcasm?

[lisiecki]

whole big edit

Dang, you know i think your right.
It has been a while since ive read them, and its likely i may be playing up the Harry V Snape in my mind more than it actually was there.

Point: Finn

[Lord_Gareth]

Your argument is being somewhat undermined by the evidence; that is, Twilight is having these effects on people. And not just young girls either; float onto a dating site sometime and see how many people are "looking for my Edward".

Normally, reading books doesn't affect people like that. Your points would be valid...except that they aren't.

^ THAT post, thank'ee much.

The other post was the one wherein I actually listed the problems Twilight's been causing.

[Drascin]

So your saying that reading Lord of the Rings at the same age will teach them to take presents from creepy old men.

Actually, if it does influence you (some people are influentiable, some are not) that will probably give you a bit of a hero complex, not what you said. I rather think my own tendency to jump in harm's way for other people was greatly increased by a childhood excessively immersed in heroic fantasy (LotR, Dragonlance, Forgotten Realms, everything I could get my hands on) and shonens like Rurouni Kenshin, for example .

[raitalin]

I hate to see a good point ignored just because of its delivery, so maybe it'll help if I repost this without any emotion or attitude whatsoever.

Normally, your argument would be a sound one - except that here, Twilight is demonstrating results. What there has been for Twilight include:

- Several hundred cases of assault
- Three murders
- One cult (Cullenism)
- Innumerable reported cases of self-mutilation, usually in public (said to Robert Patterson at a book signing, "We did this for you, Edward!")


- Demonstrable cases of young women AND young men who consider the relationship both healthy and ideal

- Demonstrable cases of ADULTS who consider the relationship both healthy and ideal

[lisiecki]

^ THAT post, thank'ee much.

The other post was the one wherein I actually listed the problems Twilight's been causing.

Oh ok that one im more than happy to address.

Its not Twilight fault if idiots read it.
If people read a book that has an unhealthy relationship in it than thats the falut of the Readers

On these dating sights, do you ever see users looking for there "Romeo"

The relationship between Romeo and Juilet is one that people OFTEN say there looking for.

The fact that there idiots, dosnt take away from the play

[lisiecki]

I hate to see a good point ignored just because of its delivery, so maybe it'll help if I repost this without any emotion or attitude whatsoever.l[/URL]

Unhealthy people, do unhealthy things.
I am of the opinion that even if it wasn;t these events that inspired these behaviors, destructive things would have happened any ways.

Then again i don't believe that the events at Columbine are the result of playing quake

[Lord_Gareth]

For your point to be valid these incidents would have to be few and far between (like school shooters). The incidents related to Twilight spread like wildfire. The problem isn't that Twilight has some siren call to the mentally unhealthy; it's that Twilight relies on a romantic ideal that has deep roots in our society. Few people actually understand the two stages that romantic love goes through, and as such it's easy to mistake Bella and Edward's relationship for love - and since it's "love", much of our society will make excuses for it. How can it be bad? After all, they "love" one another.

However, the relationship is not healthy and they are not in love, and that means that millions of readers are idealizing and approving of something that is, frankly, horrible.

[thorgrim29]

Wait what, murders and self mutilation???? And I knew about the cult, but I foolishly believed it was more of a joke... Now I know.

On Lestat vs Edward: I've never actually read the Twilight books, but what I know is that Lestat is a jerk. Even when he was portrayed as a hero, he ended up sounding like a jerk. He is also very cool, in an insane sort of way. But I'd be very surprised if anyone idolized him as a perfect gay lover. BTW that's what's fun with the Vampire books, Lestat's a jerk, Louis' a whiny bitch, the Queen is bug**** insane, so is Claudia, Arman is too busy looking perfect to be an engaging character, he also is insane. I think the only sympathetic vampires in the 3 books I read were the red haired semi-Egyptian shaman and Marius.

[lisiecki]

Again, a little bit like Romeo and Juliet.

Also, I maintain my statement that I enjoyed the books.
And that these events them selves, do not prevent me from doing that.
I enjoy Fight Club, Despite the fact that there are plenty of idiots, teenage and otherwise, who started real fight clubs.

For your point to be valid these incidents would have to be few and far between (like school shooters). The incidents related to Twilight spread like wildfire. The problem isn't that Twilight has some siren call to the mentally unhealthy; it's that Twilight relies on a romantic ideal that has deep roots in our society. Few people actually understand the two stages that romantic love goes through, and as such it's easy to mistake Bella and Edward's relationship for love - and since it's "love", much of our society will make excuses for it. How can it be bad? After all, they "love" one another.

However, the relationship is not healthy and they are not in love, and that means that millions of readers are idealizing and approving of something that is, frankly, horrible.

[Finn Solomon]

You can't deny Twilight pulled the trigger, though. Correlation strongly implies causation. As for Romeo and Juliet, many people have commented how staggeringly unrealistic their relationship was.

[lisiecki]

You can't deny Twilight pulled the trigger, though. Correlation strongly implies causation. As for Romeo and Juliet, many people have commented how staggeringly unrealistic their relationship was.

Honestly, I dont know enough about the topic to talk about it.

However, again, if there is causation, then it will not have affected me enjoying the books when I read them last summer.

Perhaps I'm mistaken, we are talking about the words between the covers of the book Twlite, or are we only talking about the events that it may have caused?

[Finn Solomon]

I've got no problem with you enjoying the book. Some people like watching American Idol and some people hate Firefly, after all. Taste is subjective. I'm merely making the point that Twilight is dangerous because it is actively appealing to a demographic that would be most influenced by it and are likely to cause them to do things and think things that are not healthy.

[lisiecki]

I've got no problem with you enjoying the book. Some people like watching American Idol and some people hate Firefly, after all. Taste is subjective. I'm merely making the point that Twilight is dangerous because it is actively appealing to a demographic that would be most influenced by it and are likely to cause them to do things and think things that are not healthy.

Oh, Ok.

I can state that I'm going to look in to these things you and Gareth have mentioned, and if i come to the same conclusion, I will be upset.

Although i LOVED firefly when it was called Star Wars

[Lord_Gareth]

Although i LOVED firefly when it was called Star Wars

....We are clearly talking about different series here. The only thing Firefly has in common with Star Wars is the fact that both are in space. Even the laws of physics (hearing in SPAAAAAAAAAACE!) are different between 'em.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Although i LOVED firefly when it was called Star Wars

Off topic, but...

What?

The differences are staggering. About the only similarities I can come up with are "Antagonistic Governing Body" and "In Space."

Star Wars is, while many consider it an excellent story (I'm more on the fence about that one), a story of good and evil, and a fight against a totalitarian rule of...well...evil being.

Firefly is all about shades of grey. Our protagonists aren't the best people around...but they have their morals. The "enemy" is the same way. They aren't the nicest, but they have boundaries they respect. Additionally, it's a fight to survive, not to strike back (until Serenity, which was a little different. Still not Star Wars though).

Anyway, tiny rant over. Proceed.

Edit: Heh. Same wavelength as usual, Gareth.

[lisiecki]

....We are clearly talking about different series here. The only thing Firefly has in common with Star Wars is the fact that both are in space. Even the laws of physics (hearing in SPAAAAAAAAAACE!) are different between 'em.

No no its the show with the

Gruff But Lovable Starship Captain.
The Mysterious and Wise Old Man
The Siblings with the clues to a secret that can tare down a corrupt government
and the wookie

Right?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

No no its the show with the

Gruff But Lovable Starship Captain.
The Mysterious and Wise Old Man
The Sibblings with the cluse to a secret that can tare down a corrupt goverment
and the wookie

Right?

You mean the typical genre cliches for...well...ANYTHING? Gruff But Lovable _____, Mysterious and Wise ______, Siblings or Individual whose secret can _______ the ______, and a guy who happens to be good at beating stuff until it stops moving? Those are not unique to Star Wars by any means. And the characterization between Firefly and Star Trek, as well as the plot and the morals, are so different that I still don't understand you calling them the same.

[Finn Solomon]

Well...yeah...but that's pretty darn superficial. It's like saying Tim Hunter, Harry Potter and Ponder Stibbons are the same man because they've got dark hair, wear glasses and practise magic.

[lisiecki]

You mean the typical genre cliches for...well...ANYTHING? Gruff But Lovable _____, Mysterious and Wise ______, Siblings or Individual whose secret can _______ the ______, and a guy who happens to be good at beating stuff until it stops moving? Those are not unique to Star Wars by any means. And the characterization between Firefly and Star Trek, as well as the plot and the morals, are so different that I still don't understand you calling them the same.

let me have my fun

:P

[thorgrim29]

Well, I'll give you the Mal/Han thing, they are pretty similar, but the rest of the cast? Please. You can't compare Book and Obi-Wan, one is a wise mentor, the other is an emotionally scarred old man running from his past. Jayne and Chewy is even more ridiculous, and Simon couldn't care less about overthrowing the government, he just wants to keep his sister safe and possibly heal her.

Besides, even if the characters had been more similar, the plot has absolutely nothing to do with Star Wars.