Twilight - Love it, or Hate it?

[Jalor]

I didn't say its good or not, i said that vampires have a history of sparkle.

Did Nosferatu sparkle? Did Dracula sparkle? I think not.

[lisiecki]

Did Nosferatu sparkle? Did Dracula sparkle? I think not.

Im quite happy you think that?

Who's "nosferatu" BTW

You mean vampires in general, or the masqurade clan?

[lisiecki]

Oh waite....

You mean Count Orlok?

Yes, i give in to your superior knowledge of vampire fiction.
/me rolls eyes

[Catch]

Im quite happy you think that?

Who's "nosferatu" BTW

You mean vampires in general, or the masqurade clan?

No, it's a vampire movie. One of the first, actually.

There was vampire media before Anne Rice, Stephenie Meyer and LARP, surprisingly. It just wasn't on every teeny-bopper's mind.

[lisiecki]

No, it's a vampire movie. One of the first, actually.

There was vampire media before Anne Rice, Stephenie Meyer and LARP, surprisingly. It just wasn't on every teeny-bopper's mind.

yes...
the movie is called nosferatu

the character is Count Orlok

It seems quite unlikely the movie its self was able to sparkle

[KnightDisciple]

Hey, look. Dracula, in a 92 movie.
Style, but no "sparkles":

[lisiecki]

Hey, look. Dracula, in a 92 movie.
Style, but no "sparkles":

WOW

Ya apprently im beat here.
I have people showing pictures from movies made 100 years after Dracula was written.

I have people asking me if a movie, not the character IN the movie, but the movie its self sparkle.

And they alone know when an author is using a word metaphorically or literally

[Catch]

And they alone know when an author is using a word metaphorically or literally

There is a difference between "his skin seemed to shine" and "I can't go into sunlight. Or I'll sparkle."

Are you acting dense on purpose? It won't make the Twilight novels any better.

[lisiecki]

There is a difference between "his skin seemed to shine" and "I can't go into sunlight. Or I'll sparkle."

Are you acting dense on purpose? It won't make the Twilight novels any better.

No my brain is still hurting.

You do realise there's no one called Nosferatu in the movie Nosferatu right?

[KnightDisciple]

No my brain is still hurting.

You do realise there's no one called Nosferatu in the movie Nosferatu right?

Nosferatu isn't a name.

It's a classification. Count Orlock is a Nosferatu.

And I've heard the term used in reference to vampires before, outside of WoD.

[lisiecki]

There is a difference between "his skin seemed to shine" and "I can't go into sunlight. Or I'll sparkle."

Are you acting dense on purpose? It won't make the Twilight novels any better.

Your right. Luckly for us, Anne Rice does the first.

My hair I shook loose into the usual thick mane of glowing yellow shoulder-length waves. What would I look like to mortals? I honestly don't know. I covered up my blue eyes, as always, with black glasses, lest their radiance mesmerize and entrance at random-a real nuisance-and over my delicate white hands, with their telltale glassy fingernails, I drew the usual pair of soft gray leather gloves.

Rice, Anne. Vampire Chronicles 04 - The Tale of the Body Thief. New York: Ballantine Books, 1993 p9

the hair, its self, is glowing. Its not LIKE its glowing or AS IF its glowing, it is, its self, glowing.

Don't be dense

[lisiecki]

although if you acually want the word Sparkle

I obeyed. Then I sat on the bed opposite David, who had assumed a very relaxed yet commanding
attitude, rolling up the stiff starched cuffs of his shirt, which revealed the dark fleece of his arms. There was also quite a bit of dark hair on his chest, bubbling up through the open collar of the shirt. Only a little
gray mixed in with it, the gray that sparkled here and there in his heavy shaven beard. I found it quite impossible to believe he was a man of seventy-four.

Memnoch the Devil
I smiled. "Pink fingernails, and wet pink lipstick." I had seen her
sparkle.

The Vampire Armand

The lack of light would also make the sparkle of my eyes less noticeable; I knew this too. And the more I spoke, the more animated I became, the more human I would appear.

There is a difference between "his skin seemed to shine" and "I can't go into sunlight. Or I'll sparkle."

your quite right its not "His skin SEEMED to shine" the vampire shine, independently of outside forces.

I admit that some of these may be questionable, but in the Armand passage, he is trying to hide the fact that his eyes do sparkle in the light

Man, it sucks I'm so dense

[Rutskarn]

= Kiefer Sutherland kicking the crap out of Cullen for 24 hours.

I know this was posted yonks ago, but god damn do I want to see this.

Also, nothing against Twilight fans.

[lisiecki]

Hey, look. Dracula, in a 92 movie.
Style, but no "sparkles":

Hey, Look. Dracula in an 1897 novel.

Dracula Sparkled
for Mrs. Harker began to clap her hands. His eyes sparkled.

Mia Glowed
"Come!" she said, "come away from this awful place! Let us go
to meet my husband who is, I know, coming towards us." She was
looking thin and pale and weak; but her eyes were pure and glowed
.


Dose the book beat the movie, or does the movie beat the book?

I mean I know that when I think of the DEFINITIVE Dracula its francis ford coppola's version and not Bram Stokers version

[Avilan the Grey]

I didn't say its good or not, i said that vampires have a history of sparkle.

No they don't. One book series by a Hack do not a History make. I read Interview because at the time there were no other vampire fiction except Dracula.

I like vampires, but I am not even remotely interested in Twilight because at it's core it is not vampire fiction, it's teenage girl romance novels.

[lisiecki]

No they don't. One book series by a Hack do not a History make.

DUDE!

I TOTALLY aggre, Stroker IS a hack, but no one will aggre with me.
You and I alone know the truth

[Avilan the Grey]

Hey, Look. Dracula in an 1897 novel.

Dracula Sparkled
for Mrs. Harker began to clap her hands. His eyes sparkled.

Mia Glowed
"Come!" she said, "come away from this awful place! Let us go
to meet my husband who is, I know, coming towards us." She was
looking thin and pale and weak; but her eyes were pure and glowed
.

Methinks you do not read these paragraphs correctly. Is English your first language?
"Sparkling eyes" has nothing to do with "sparklnig" in the Twilight sense.

[Avilan the Grey]

DUDE!

I TOTALLY aggre, Stroker IS a hack, but no one will aggre with me.
You and I alone know the truth

Of course, most of the classic horror was written by "hacks". In this case though I put Stoker about 10 miles above Rice. There are degrees, you know.

[lisiecki]

Methinks you do not read these paragraphs correctly. Is English your first language?
"Sparkling eyes" has nothing to do with "sparklnig" in the Twilight sense.

So Dracula's eyes, sparkling in the sunlight, is nothing like Edward sparkling in the sunlight?

[Avilan the Grey]

So Dracula's eyes, sparkling in the sunlight, is nothing like Edward sparkling in the sunlight?

Exactly.

To explain: "Eyes sparkling" is an expression that describes a special look you can see in people's eyes when they get very excited, or agitated. Normal people. Like you and me.

[lisiecki]

Methinks you do not read these paragraphs correctly. Is English your first language?
"Sparkling eyes" has nothing to do with "sparklnig" in the Twilight sense.

Actually English is my first language.
However the English spoken in Michigan, is only tangentially related to American English

[Avilan the Grey]

Actually English is my first language.
However the English spoken in Michigan, is only tangentially related to American English

...Reminds me for some reason of the American 19 year old total moron (and no I do not make any comparisons to you!) in my wife's Swedish class when she first arrived here, who kept insisting that English was "invented" in America and then spread to England. If I remember correctly my wife was very proud of the teacher for not pointing and laughing...

[lisiecki]

...Reminds me for some reason of the American 19 year old total moron (and no I do not make any comparisons to you!) in my wife's Swedish class when she first arrived here, who kept insisting that English was "invented" in America and then spread to England. If I remember correctly my wife was very proud of the teacher for not pointing and laughing...

Hmmm...
I'm not saying we invented ENGLISH that was the English. (and the Germans and various Anglo-Saxon tribes before they started throwing in every word imaginable), however, Michigan is weird.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPPHjOX1wZc
http://www.michigannative.com/ma_home.shtml

living outside of Michigan, people give me blank looks when I use real words... and when i talk at 90miles an hour and slur everything

[Serpentine]

Your right. Luckly for us, Anne Rice does the first.

My hair I shook loose into the usual thick mane of glowing yellow shoulder-length waves. What would I look like to mortals? I honestly don't know. I covered up my blue eyes, as always, with black glasses, lest their radiance mesmerize and entrance at random-a real nuisance-and over my delicate white hands, with their telltale glassy fingernails, I drew the usual pair of soft gray leather gloves.

Rice, Anne. Vampire Chronicles 04 - The Tale of the Body Thief. New York: Ballantine Books, 1993 p9

the hair, its self, is glowing. Its not LIKE its glowing or AS IF its glowing, it is, its self, glowing.

Don't be dense

"Glowing yellow". It's the description of a colour. When you tell a pregnant woman she has a "glow" about her, you're not saying you could use her as a light source.

I obeyed. Then I sat on the bed opposite David, who had assumed a very relaxed yet commanding
attitude, rolling up the stiff starched cuffs of his shirt, which revealed the dark fleece of his arms. There was also quite a bit of dark hair on his chest, bubbling up through the open collar of the shirt. Only a little
gray mixed in with it, the gray that sparkled here and there in his heavy shaven beard. I found it quite impossible to believe he was a man of seventy-four.

Not literal, literary. The paler colour of the grey made it look "sparkly"-ish, not "the light reflected off it in a shiny light-producing fashion".

Memnoch the Devil
I smiled. "Pink fingernails, and wet pink lipstick." I had seen her
sparkle.

I'd need the context of this one. It could mean any number of things. Her sparkling personality, the metaphorical "sparkle" in her eye, a bright, cheery, cheeky comment...

The Vampire Armand

The lack of light would also make the sparkle of my eyes less noticeable; I knew this too. And the more I spoke, the more animated I became, the more human I would appear.

This is the only one so far that you could have a case for, though with context (which I don't have) it could be refering to a metaphorical "predator" sparkle, or look.

Hey, Look. Dracula in an 1897 novel.

Dracula Sparkled
for Mrs. Harker began to clap her hands. His eyes sparkled.

Mia Glowed
"Come!" she said, "come away from this awful place! Let us go
to meet my husband who is, I know, coming towards us." She was
looking thin and pale and weak; but her eyes were pure and glowed
.

Entirely well-documented literary stock. "Sparkling eyes" is a metaphor for cheekiness, cheeriness, daring-do, happiness, excitement, etc. "Glowed", too, is not meant to be taken literally. Her eyes could not substitute for torches. They merely indicate interest, liveliness, attentiveness, alertness, etc.
These are (almost) all ENTIRELY METAPHORICAL OR LITERARY TROPES. The Twilight vampires (so I'm told) literally sparkled. As in, the light reflected from their skin like sun on fish scales. If these are your only examples of a history of sparkly vampires then you are, to be blunt, wrong. None of the above sparkled anything even remotely resembling like the Twilight ones. The eyes is the closest, and that's still way off, even if I do take it literally.

Nosferatu is another word for vampire. Maybe not widely known (I pretty much assumed the vampire in Nosferatu was called that, but seems I was mistaken), but still so.

Finally: That was Dracula? I thought he looked like Dorian Grey from League of Extraordinary Gentlemen...

[Starla]

Now see this kind of sounds to me like you're suggesting that the majority of men have to exercise large amounts of restraint to avoid raping women they find attractive. I really hope this isn't anything like what you're saying, but nonetheless I feel that I must ask for a little clarification as to what it is you're alluding to here.

No I am not refering to rape but all the things that I remember the Friends show alluding to as being okay. I don't agree with their morals and I got the impression from that show that in general men don't rape women, but they will "take care of themselves" through other means.

So, I remember why I haven't visited these forums in so long. It is really impossible to keep up with the posts. I could never catch up. As I was digging through these pages there were some twists and turns in the conversation that got me surprised and ruffled. But some of the main issues that continue to come up I think I can respond to. Just don't be surprised if I never get to come back because I am sure that anything you reply to for me will be so buried when I have time to look again I may never see it.

PEDOPHILE--- Why do you all have a problem with generation gaps in relationships? Ever read Emma? Ever heard of a 40-60's bar? SO not uncommon.

STALKING--- Most relationships the girl likes the guy and calls him way too much and he runs away from her because "he needs space." Girl stalking guy almost never works out. Totally the opposite for a girl. I would call it stalking if the attention is unwanted. Bella wanted the attention.

what else was there?

Oh yeah, Stephanie Myer's teaches "Mormonism" through her book. *Gags. There was a link, but I don't have access to it from here. I read the article and I cringed a lot. I know Mormon is a popular term for my religion because The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is quite a mouthful. I saw how the conclusions were drawn in the article, but when I read the book I saw more correlations to Jane Eyer and Rebecca than I did to mormonism. It is more a sappy love story than a religious reference. I said in my original post that I was impressed by her ability to completely disregard our religion in her writing and I think she did. There was no mention of Christ or the second coming and effect that it might have on the "undead." I remember thinking while reading the book, "If vampires and werewolves were real, could they be saved by the atonement?" If I was creating the story I really don't know how I would handle it either. Harry Potter at least died and came back to life, to "save" the world from Lord Voldemort. I just don't see anything close to that in Twilight.

Well I am out of time. Going back to facebook.

[Juhn]

Hmmm...
I'm not saying we invented ENGLISH that was the English. (and the Germans and various Anglo-Saxon tribes before they started throwing in every word imaginable), however, Michigan is weird.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPPHjOX1wZc
http://www.michigannative.com/ma_home.shtml

living outside of Michigan, people give me blank looks when I use real words... and when i talk at 90miles an hour and slur everything

I sound exactly like that fellow in the video. I even say "crans" instead of "cray-ons", "close" instead of "clothes", and "grow-shrees" instead of "grow-ser-ees". Although I do pronounce "roof" to rhyme with "tool" and not "book", and I say the whole word when I say "refrigerator".

Of course, considering I live about a half-mile from Detroit, this probably not surprising. Although that half-mile does put me in an entirely different country, so...

Oh. And to actually include something on topic, as to why the maximum acceptable age-difference depends on age, I direct you to this. 40>37

[Mx.Silver]

No I am not refering to rape but all the things that I remember the Friends show alluding to as being okay. I don't agree with their morals and I got the impression from that show that in general men don't rape women, but they will "take care of themselves" through other means.

Masturbation? Is that what you're trying to say here? Because, y'know, even if you do assume there's something 'wrong' about that it's still not exactly comparible to vampirism, as it's only something that effects the man personally, rather than harming anyone else (which vampirism indisputably is).
Or was it consensual, casual (or at least unmarried) sex? To be fair, this could well be what Meyer was aiming for, but again that wouldn't exactly undermine the whole 'mormonism' thing.

PEDOPHILE--- Why do you all have a problem with generation gaps in relationships? Ever read Emma? Ever heard of a 40-60's bar? SO not uncommon.

I have no problem with generation gaps in relationships, provided that both particpants are consenting adults. A 40 year old with a 60 year old might raise the odd eyebrow, but it's nothing to get particularly worried about. A 30 year old with a 10 year old however is a very different matter (for reasons I really shouldn't have to explain). When it's late-teens and early 20s with an infant/toddler then you're entering a territory that's just all kinds of messed-up.

STALKING--- Most relationships the girl likes the guy and calls him way too much and he runs away from her because "he needs space." Girl stalking guy almost never works out. Totally the opposite for a girl. I would call it stalking if the attention is unwanted. Bella wanted the attention.

Stalking is not the same as attention. At all. Stalking is a more specific kind of attention/behaviour pattern. Whether the person being stalked is aware of it or even if they like does not change the fact that they are being stalked. Calling someone a lot during a relationship is not stalking at all. Following someone around and watching/spying on them without their knowledge as part of a fixation/obsession, on the other hand, is. Especially is it's carried out for a long period of time.

There was no mention of Christ or the second coming and effect that it might have on the "undead."

The name Jesus Christ is not specifically mentioned in the Narnia books either. That does not make them any less obviously Christian. Secondly, although I'm not particularly knowledgeable about mormonism, I'm pretty sure there's rather a lot more to it than just 'the second coming of the messiah'. Just because one particular aspect of doctrine is mention does not mean that others aren't. There's also the whole subtext thing, so just because Meyers is not explicitly stating that 'Mormonism rocks and you should join it' every chapter doesn't mean that there isn't a fairly strong subtext. Indeed, the article itself suggests that a fair part of it may be accidental outpurings of Meyers' subconsciouss rather than the result of a direct planning.

[Starla]

Well I was wrong I guess this subject is slowing down. I just finished watching High School Musical 3 and I was thinking about the 2 main characters Troy and Gabriella versus Edward and Bella. Theirs is obviously a much healthier relationship and they have all the elements of a what everyone here was saying that Edward and Bella's character's lacked. So I think I have to agree on those points.

Mr. Silver in response to your comments: Sexual Addiction would be a more accurate description of what I worry about. I know a few men with that problem and it affects more than just them. It affects their relationship with their wives and children and it is very destructive of their self esteem and teh problem just spirals downward. I have watch two marriages fall apart because of it and I am hoping 2 others won't go the same way. So maybe that clarifies my endearment to Edward abstaining from his lust for flesh. I apologize for being vague, but I wasn't sure how blunt I should be.

I still don't think Jacob should be called a pedophile since his relationship development with Renesmee would be comparable to the relationship in Emma. The books dealt with 3 different examples of the soul mate thing with love triangles and such and not all of them where generation gaps.

Stalking: Okay Edward followed Bella around stealthily. You can think of her as his prey and you could say his intentions were unlawful. Then in your interpretation he was stalking her is correct. But you can also see that Bella looked for Edward when he wasn't around. She liked and wanted his attention. But that is just more fuel to the argument for it being an unbalance, unhealthy relationship.

Narnia: CS Lewis actually wrote those books with the intention of explaining Christianity. The plots have very specific parallels to the atonement (Lion, Witch and Wardrobe), baptism (Eustice turns into a dragon and needs Aslan to peel the skin away), faith (Prince Caspian), and the Second Coming (the Last Battle) are the ones I remember most clearly. His books are more allegorical since they are meant to represent teachings of Christ.
While your arguement that Myers wrote subconscious parallels to her religion is not impossible, I just disagree with the idea that these parallels were obvious.
I also disagree with some of the parallels the article drew in the first place. The article compared the vampires to Gods because of their "superhuman" abilities. I never thought of their abilities as "God-like." And comparing a vampire bite to sealing ceremony in the temple is so off base I can't find words to describe my reaction. Ludicrous comes to mind.
I remember in my AP english class we had to write a paper about the symbols in poem about a dead, decaying groundhog and our teacher shared a gem from a student in her early teaching days. He decided the poem was talking about love and communism and used supportive statements like "bummer rhymes with summer, so the author was disappointed in the death of communism." Somehow the arguments in the aforementioned article follow that same line of thinking for me. Sure Bella is going to unlive forever with her vampire husband, but that is more the opposite of what a temple marriage represents. Sure they will repeat Highschool over ad infinitim but that isn't progressing...they aren't learning--they are just acting. Edward doesn't have to pay attention in class because he already knows the answers.
I have also read the Ender's game series by Orson Scott Card who also is a member of the same church. I also think he did not include our religion in his series, but he does deal with issues of forgiveness, marital and family relationships and living unnaturally long. Do you think he was subconsciously writing about Mormonism? If someone pulled parallels out of the air and said that he was would you believe it?
What it comes down to is that all the comparisons in the article were not principle teachings of Mormonism but cultural teachings. Our religion is not based in marriage or the temple, but in Christ. We build our temples to perform ordinances of Christ. Not the other way around. I am not about to go around telling you all what vampires should be like or trying to act like I know more about DnD than you just because I have played in a few campaigns, don't tell me that an outsider is an authority on my religion just because she wrote an article about a vampire book subconsciously teaching it.

Anyway, someone way back in the pages talked about popularized books' excuse for their lack of substance was "at least it gets kids reading" and I immediately thought of Farenheit 451. Let's get back to Tennyson and Whitman. Shakespeare and Dickenson deserve some props. When I read Laura Ingalls Wilder and the way they learned in the early colonial days I marvel at what we have regressed to. I got all miffed when a comment about Farenheit 451 said it's main message was "Censureship is bad" and that the book took too many pages saying it. We do need to move up the bar in schools. My son learned his letters and their sounds by the time he was 2, by 3 he could read words. By 4 he was reading books on his own. Last year in Kindergarten his teacher told me she tested him to the 3rd grade reading level. Our goal now is comprehension and getting him to tell us what he just read in his own words. My friend says he loves reading because he sees us, his parents doing it. I hope he will always love reading. I hated some of the books in Highschool, but I loved reading nonetheless. I agree that we need to make reading enjoyable, but we also need to improve the quality. Some of the degradation in our society is due the loss of substance in our books and movies and the isolation of people. Not to say that an internet community isn't good, but when you are too busy to spend time with neighbors because you are always on your computer then you are one step closer to calling your TV "the family."

Oh gee, see what happens when the kids are in bed and my husband is playing WOW? Time for sleep.

(I saw all the spelling errors but I just can't get my eyes to focus enough to correct them. I am sorry)

[lisiecki]

This is the only one so far that you could have a case for, though with context (which I don't have) it could be refering to a metaphorical "predator" sparkle, or look.

So... Just to make sure I have this right. All of these other references are metaphorical and the Twilight vampires sparkling IS NOT a metaphor. OR
The Twilight vampires sparkling is literial, and all the other vampires sparkling IS NOT literal...
wow that seems REALLY convenient for people who are disagreeing with me.

"Well Lisiecki, your wrong because your wrong, the word 'sparkle' is a metaphor when we want it to be a metaphor, but literal when we want it to be literal"

"Glowing yellow". It's the description of a colour. When you tell a pregnant woman she has a "glow" about her, you're not saying you could use her as a light source.

Along with the glassy nails and the raident eyes, that is one glowy vampire, for a vampire that doesn't glow.

"Sparkling eyes" is a metaphor for cheekiness, cheeriness, daring-do, happiness, excitement, etc. "Glowed", too, is not meant to be taken literally. Her eyes could not substitute for torches. They merely indicate interest, liveliness, attentiveness, alertness, etc.

These are (almost) all ENTIRELY METAPHORICAL OR LITERARY TROPES. The Twilight vampires (so I'm told) literally sparkled. As in, the light reflected from their skin like sun on fish scales. If these are your only examples of a history of sparkly vampires then you are, to be blunt, wrong. None of the above sparkled anything even remotely resembling like the Twilight ones. The eyes is the closest, and that's still way off, even if I do take it literally.

Nosferatu is another word for vampire. Maybe not widely known (I pretty much assumed the vampire in Nosferatu was called that, but seems I was mistaken), but still so.

Finally: That was Dracula? I thought he looked like Dorian Grey from League of Extraordinary Gentlemen...

[/QUOTE]

Ok, so other vampires sparkle IN the light others, Edward sparkles, IN the sunlight but independently from the light.

As for the Nosferatu comment, im still trying to figure out if the person who mentioned it means that the movie its self sparkles in the light.

I have it on DVD, so, yes, my copy of the movie does sparkle

Of course, considering I live about a half-mile from Detroit, this probably not surprising. Although that half-mile does put me in an entirely different country, so...

Michigan is weird.
My Dad grew up in a lower middle class home .5 miles from the tunnel, he has no accent, and is perhaps the most well spoken person I have ever meet with a completely neutral accent.

My Mom grew up in an upper class home and has a slight Michigan accent.

Im one of those people who picks up an accent in a few days where ever I am.
Go to Georgia for a week? I have a southern accent.
Go to Ireland for a wedding, I come home talking like im from there.

In Michigan where ive spent 99% of my life, I take on all the worst aspects of the accent.

And I drive at 90mhp down dirt roads.

[KnightDisciple]

Ok, you're obviously not trying to actually hold an intelligent conversation.