OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

[ColonelFuster]

I know it's just an idea, but I'd like to see a return to form in the next few hundred strips - the whole team back together, all upgraded, older and wiser, and back to good old adventuring.

Man, what an idea.

The thing is, maybe Rich didn't want to get stale? Y'know, like, "okay, what kind of useless bard/ greedy rogue/ the fighter PC is the only one that read the rules/ the inetible evil PC/ elves are asexual/ dwarves like beer joke can I run today? Or should I make fun of D&D rules in general instead, again?"

The garfield dilemma.

[Feagurth]

Four words that instantly came to mind when reading this comic:

Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage

(I mean, as an alternative to meteor-swarming every round )

[kinai]

My knowledge of the liches is very limited. What would happen if they destroy the phylactery?? In the wikipedia it is stated that the lich would be destroyed if the phylactery is destroyed, but I can't believe that the comic is going to end as soon...

Kinai.

[banjo1985]

Ah, so that's O-Chul's idea. Somehow I can't see this turning out to well. Throwing Xykon's soul into the Snarl is surely just going to bind the two together into some kind of unstoppable world killer?

/apocolypsespeak

[David Argall]

And so continues the victory of immediate drama over any sort of plot consistency. Xykon pounded both O-Chul and V into very low hp, and now he uses his most powerful spell and he can't even hurt them. [For those who like the rules, the two should take about 84 hp each, save for half, if not much more, and neither should have over 30 hp, much less 42. For those who want to dodge inconvenient rules, Meteor Swarm has been shown as a very powerful spell, which somehow does zero damage here.
This scene is like a video game where O-Chul and V have been killed and started new lives.

Then we have Xykon more or less standing around while the duo is running around all over the place, and pausing to think and plan.

As a minor point, the rift should be about 3 times as far away as it is shown.

Seems only fair that once you lose the whole splice, you lose any and all benefits that came with it.

A look at V's complexion before and after the splice shows that the spell wasn't "fair". V is missing a whole lot of wrinkles [which at least means we have lost the V is a lich theory].

commentary spoilers from WaXPs:

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Rich has said that he isn't going to reveal what the MitD is until near the end of the strip. So unless he lets the MitD out of the box, and we don't get to see what it is, I wouldn't exactly count on the MitD getting out anytime soon.

[can't find it this fast, but I believe he merely said he would reveal it, not that he would do so late in the comic, tho that is the most likely place.]

Waaaiit a minute.
What's wrong with taking V's word for it?

We have quite a few anti-V posters who insist V's statements are not to be relied on.

O-Chul and V just survived that last Meteor Storm that Xykon threw at them. Is this a plot hole? It would be if their surviving it was impossible or, again, outlandishly improbable. However, if we can come up with reasonable explanations... Xykon rolled low, they rolled high, the healing potions were more effective than we at first thought, etc., then it's not a plot hole. And the comic doesn't have to explain this! As long as there's some reasonable explanation for them surviving, then there's absolutely no reason for us not to accept the fact that they DID survive it, as evidence that one such reasonable explanation is in effect.

But so far nobody has even started to produce such an explanation, much less made it a reasonable one.
And it does have to be reasonable, not just an explanation. Too many unreasonable ones just destroy our suspension of disbelief.

Now some ideas on next time...

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a-Bird gets phylactery into rift. Nothing happens. The rift is not harmful. It is the Snarl, who seems to be taking a nap, who is dangerous.
b-The phylactery wakes up the Snarl, who starts wiping out the city.
c-The phylactery bounces off the rift, which is still sealed.
d-likely as part of a, Xykon kills our dynamic duo.
e-Xykon goes after bird, and the two escape to find the resistance.

[Frog Dragon]

My knowledge of the liches is very limited. What would happen if they destroy the phylactery?? In the wikipedia it is stated that the lich would be destroyed if the phylactery is destroyed, but I can't believe that the comic is going to end as soon...

Kinai.

As I understand it destroying the phylactery means the lich can't come back anymore. No more soul hidey place. But the lich does still have a physical body and won't be gone until that is destroyed.

[RMS Oceanic]

My knowledge of the liches is very limited. What would happen if they destroy the phylactery?? In the wikipedia it is stated that the lich would be destroyed if the phylactery is destroyed, but I can't believe that the comic is going to end as soon...

Kinai.

In the short term, nothing would happen: Destroying the phylactery doesn't immediately destroy the lich. The rules on the long term consequences are silent, although DM's usually interpret it in two ways.

1. The lich could make another phylactery to replace the lost one, but is vulnerable to permanent destruction before it's complete.
2. The phylactery is gone forever and can't be replaced. The lich (un)lives indefinately, but is dead dead once destroyed.

I suspect Rich intends to follow interpretation 2, but we'll just have to see.

[pjackson]

First off, on the note of if the sorcerer of the splice could cast Overland Flight or flight, I don't think so.

I do think so.

Whilst it makes perfect sense that the spliced sorcerer could only cast the spells he knows, any sensible high level sorcerer will have a flight spell of some kind amongst his spells known.

[ss49]

I'm missing something. Why would the Snarl destroy the phylactery? I recall that Dorukan's Gate destroyed Xykon's body, but that was the Gate, not the Snarl.

[RMS Oceanic]

I'm missing something. Why would the Snarl destroy the phylactery? I recall that Dorukan's Gate destroyed Xykon's body, but that was the Gate, not the Snarl.

The Snarl unmade the first world in less than half an hour, as well as slaying gods in a single strike. I think a trinket such as a heavily warded phylactery would be child's play to it.

[B9anders]

I am loving the character development for V over the past few strips. Deliciously ironic. Ever since he killed the dragon where he had legitimate intent to use his ultimate power, said power has for various reasons turned out to be useless for him, either by circumstance or because he simply didn't use it very well.

And in the past two strips, he is forced to rely on a meager invisibility spell and his own ingenuity and is actually making things happen. And now, he is down to using what has been well established as the most useless thing in any of the group's arsenal (save perhaps roy's bag of tricks) and actually making use of it.

What his uberspells couldn't accomplish against a lich, he looks like accomplishing now with the *right* use of a 2nd-level spell and his familiar.

[Prince Gimli]

Very, very nice. Excellent even.

Thanks Rich, for such a wonderful comic.

And Xykon is so epic, it's a shame he will probably have to bite the dust eventually. Altough in this comic, you never know. The Giant has a knack for surprising his readers with unexpected twists

[J.Gellert]

V looks much more badass with his new (evil and messy) hairstyle. I do hope Blackwing can be relied on this one time!

[motub]

But so far nobody has even started to produce such an explanation, much less made it a reasonable one.

Oh, really?

Oh, and it is a bit of a stretch, but I think that O-Chul dropped V (so the Meteor Swarm missed hir) and himself Evaded the meteors. But as we all may know from CRPGs, dodging an incoming ranged magic attack is often just that easy, so I'll take it.

No Meteor Swarm that Xykon has cast previously has ever exploded, so the fact that this one didn't either isn't strange.

[Draxonicar]

NOOOOOOOOoo don't die Xykon, you were my favorite!!!!!!!

[Bianco]

The tiny, little, written-in-blue "pop"-sound just made my day. Probably week and month too. Go Blackwing!

Also, as much as I loved V's bad ass -look, I love just as much to see her all beaten up. It's the change from all-powerful to all-vulnerable that gets me every time.

Please, V, don't die. I haven't had enough of you.

[Conuly]

This is only marginally related to the prior argument (and I don't want to start that up again, of course) but I thought it was established way back in the beginning of the comic that V didn't *have* Flight. Obviously that didn't matter when spliced - I mean, V didn't have Teleport either, usually - but did that change that V got Flight for reals at some point and I didn't notice?

[RMS Oceanic]

This is only marginally related to the prior argument (and I don't want to start that up again, of course) but I thought it was established way back in the beginning of the comic that V didn't *have* Flight. Obviously that didn't matter when spliced - I mean, V didn't have Teleport either, usually - but did that change that V got Flight for reals at some point and I didn't notice?

(S)he didn't get the 3rd Edition (i.e. Better) version of Fly, because they came in randomized booster packs. (S)he must have picked up the 3.5 version, because we see h** cast it on the day of Kazumi and Daigo's wedding.

[Conuly]

(S)he must have picked up the 3.5 version, because we see h** cast it on the day of Kazumi and Daigo's wedding.

Oh you're right, we do! Well, now I feel silly. I was wondering why nobody mentioned that! Thanks :)

[Ave]

Hmm, either the rebels or the gobbos in the castle yard will taste chicken in next strip :)

[Selene]

Go, O-Chul! LOVE that he grabbed the phylactery and the elf, and took off running! With a pretty good plan, even!

Also, Blackwing, before you go could you please remind V that he has a feather fall ready? Because he clearly just forgot about it while he was thinking of flight spells. Right? Right?

And MitD, don't let them die!

[Pyron]

Go, O-Chul! LOVE that he grabbed the phylactery and the elf, and took off running! With a pretty good plan, even!

Also, Blackwing, before you go could you please remind V that he has a feather fall ready? Because he clearly just forgot about it while he was thinking of flight spells. Right? Right?

And MitD, don't let them die!

Don't worry. O'Chul can survive the fall. He has that special class feature. :-)

Badass (Ex)

At will, O'Chul is just badass!

[Dukesh8r]

This is only marginally related to the prior argument (and I don't want to start that up again, of course) but I thought it was established way back in the beginning of the comic that V didn't *have* Flight. Obviously that didn't matter when spliced - I mean, V didn't have Teleport either, usually - but did that change that V got Flight for reals at some point and I didn't notice?

Most likely, Since V is mid level(least stated by Xykon) he could have picked it up along the way. Fly is only a 3rd lvl spell and Overland Flight a 5th lvl one(by D&D rules) it makes sense that V woulda ran into a mageshop along the way, snagged a scroll and copied it into his spellbook.

[Dr. Cthulwho]

V looks much more badass with his new (evil and messy) hairstyle. I do hope Blackwing can be relied on this one time!

I think it is a nice touch that V's new found heroism could rub off on Blackwing - we've seen previously it didn't want to sacrifice itself for V, and did the same thing as V would later do (retreat against unwinnable odds).

Now? It looks like it might have a go at flying Xykon's phylactery into near certain doom! It will deserve a statue if it succeeds.

NOOOOOOOOoo don't die Xykon, you were my favorite!!!!!!!

Please, V, don't die. I haven't had enough of you.

Don't worry, I'm sure they will both survive for the many adventures ahead.

If he reverted to mortal would he age appropriately (perhaps killing him of old-age) and lose all of those lich-powers?

No. He is still an immortal undead, just an easier to kill immortal undead. Kill a lich who still has its phylactery and it just gets a new body eventually.

So you have to destroy the phylactery to ensure the Lich wont rise again after you destroy its physical body.

And so continues the victory of immediate drama over any sort of plot consistency. Xykon pounded both O-Chul and V into very low hp, and now he uses his most powerful spell and he can't even hurt them.

It looked like at least two of the spheres missed, maybe three. The fourth looks like it [i]might[i] have gotten O-Chul (who managed to take three or four spheres earlier at not quite full health). Since there are no scorch marks maybe it missed as well.

Besides which, O-Chul at least got healed well from the potions, going from the reduction in his damage markings.

For those who like the rules, the two should take about 84 hp each, save for half, if not much more, and neither should have over 30 hp, much less 42.

If it hits or misses but still catches the target in the explosions - in the normal rules. For all we know three of the spheres might have missed and gone sailing out the large hold they were running towards.

OotS magic can and does sometimes behave differently to rule book magic.

Then we have Xykon more or less standing around while the duo is running around all over the place, and pausing to think and plan.

No he isn't. He has cast at least one spell...

As a minor point, the rift should be about 3 times as far away as it is shown.

Why? We aren't seeing the rift proper, more the long cracks that creep off of it.

Besides, while Redcloak was interrogating O-Chul he said it might grow a bit bigger, he wasn't sure. Plus, at that time it was still close enough to the tower for Hobgoblins to apparently be able to chuck full grown humans into it and possibly hear stuff they might yell back.

[pendell]

New comic is up.

THAT IS SO COOL!

Applause all around. For Rich Burlew for such a great strip. And for V and O-chul finding something to achieve, most likely at the cost of their lives and un-deaths. That's heroism, that is.

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I'm not sure how this is going to work, however. Surely the Chekhov's gun of V owing the
fiends 30-45 minutes of hir soul cannot go unfired? Therefore V must survive?

Regardless, it's a brave and good thing that they are doing. Tearing up a bit here.

ETA: This is why I like OOTS better than some other web strips. Actually sympathetic protaganists who do heroic and/or good things.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[motub]

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I'm not sure how this is going to work, however. Surely the Chekhov's gun of V owing the
fiends 30-45 minutes of hir soul cannot go unfired? Therefore V must survive?

You know, this made me think of something.....

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OK, the Fiends can't act in the Material Plane except when making a deal. But that doesn't have anything to do with Qarr, does it? Qarr is not a Fiend, and is not actually involved in the making of the deal (unless you count opening the envelope, which I don't). So couldn't he, as a free agent, Plane Shift in there and... do something distracting... so that at least V (since I would doubt that Qarr has any interest in saving O-Chul anyway) could escape?

[Taekwondodo]

Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha! *breathes* Hahahahahahahahahaha! *sigh*

Oh dear, the only question is if Blackwing will actually take it. Could probably throw from closer but dangerous...

[Dr. Cthulwho]

You know, this made me think of something.....

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OK, the Fiends can't act in the Material Plane except when making a deal. But that doesn't have anything to do with Qarr, does it? Qarr is not a Fiend, and is not actually involved in the making of the deal (unless you count opening the envelope, which I don't). So couldn't he, as a free agent, Plane Shift in there and... do something distracting... so that at least V (since I would doubt that Qarr has any interest in saving O-Chul anyway) could escape?

That sounds like a good plan, though I don't know if they need any more of a distraction then Blackwing racing towards the Rift with Xykon's phylactery in hand (beak).

[snafu]

I always balk at 'creating black holes.' They're not all that mysterious. We know they can't be spontaneously created any more than ice cream sundaes can be spontaneously created.

In Star Trek they spontaneously create ice cream sundaes all the time. Well, presumably they do: I don't know if we've ever seen that specific order, but an ice cream sundae can't be any harder to create than 'Tea, Earl Grey, Hot'.

[derfenrirwolv]

Re spells: Its a homebrew plot device deus ex diablica. The author literally can't break the rules of it because its something entirely of its own making.

re: the meteor swarm: I think xykon realized that tossing meteor swarm on his phylactery could be a bad idea and "shot to miss" as a warning, like shooting the ground in front of a trespasser.

Now, i don't see why blackwing would have to make a heroic sacrifice here. Just fly up over the rift and drop it in.

I wonder if we'll see the return of mister barky from Start of Darkness? Xykons never been shown with a familiar, but if he had anything it would probably be mr barky. It could pop into reality for some familiar on familiar aerial action.

The raven flies at the same speed as someone with overland flight on them.

Xykons means of stopping Blackwing? Xykon is dumb enough to forget that familiars have improved evasion and try something like a maximized lightning bolt or fireball (repeatedly) before switching to magic missle. I can see blackwing surviving one, MAYBE two magic missiles but not if they're empowered.