OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

[Roderick_BR]

See, kids? That's why O-Chul rules. Even when he knows he have no means to win a direct battle, he thinks of an out-of-the-box solution.

What? People forget that good ideas can be used, aside from merely creating powerplayer characters? This is D&D, people, not Magic: The Gathering.

[Kaiser Omnik]

I just noticed MitD said 'O-Chul' for the first time.

Actually, it's the second time. OOTS 654

[fishguy]

I am thinking that RedCloak's holy symbol has, as one of the "so many abjuration spells protecting that thing, I've forgotten what half of them actually do." must be protection from and/or resist energy (fire)

... if that is the case it only takes a very small amount of house ruling to have it protect O'chul (even though not worn around his neck) and also V (because he is being carried by O'Chul at the time and therefore can, by a generous GM interested in a good story line, be considered to be a carried item or possession) ... then O'Chul only has to eat the impact damage from whatever meteors actually manage to hit him (looks like at least one did) and the fire damage from each explosion at -30hp damage each and V takes the fire damage at -30hp for each meteor

Does this make sense? Are there any good arguments against it (aside from the quibbles about what consitutes "properly equipped magic item" and "carried equipment"

[jere7my]

In other words you are saying this is a sacrifice of "realism" for the same of cheap thrills.

We saw Vaarsuvius holding an empty potion bottle and pouring two potions into O'Chul. Clearly, she gave herself a Potion of Sufficient Hit Points to Survive Meteor Swarm, and O'Chul two potions of Half the Necessary Hit Points to Survive Meteor Swarm. OK?

Now, you might say those potions don't exist in D&D, but Rich states in the FAQ that OotS, like a Starfury, moves at the speed of plot — if a potion needs to do something to advance the plot or set up a gag, it will, and as long as we're shown the potion bottles we don't need the mechanics spelled out.

In other words, it's worthwhile to criticize the comic according to the rules of drama, but as soon as you need to invoke the rules of D&D to make your point, as soon as you start talking about dice, you've lost. "That was too easy!" is a legitimate complaint (and, in this case, can be countered by "They drank a bunch of potions of unknown effect"). But "That should have caused 12d6 damage and they can only have up to 2d8+6 hit points" runs up against the stated intent of the author.

[Rotipher]

Presuming that the Oracle did not outright lie, how could X + O win now (by destroying Xykon) and the prophecy could still be fulfilled?

Another Soul Splice, perhaps? Tsukiko would kill for the chance to be Spliced to Xykon, and we know that Xykon would stop at nothing to avoid facing an eternity in the Lower Planes. Plus, Redcloak identified the Splice-effect right off, so perhaps the Dark One's told him how to accomplish the one-soul-to-a-customer version.

Not that I think Xykon is going to get disem-bone-ied at this stage: he's too much fun as a physical comedian for Rich to do that yet. I do think that the phylactery is toast, however.

[pendell]

YES! Yes, of COURSE it is!

Rich does not care about ANY of the things you care about. He does not care about consistency. He does not care about "realism" whatever that means when we're talking about liches throwing swarms of meteors. He does care about drama, and cheap thrills.

And that is why, for all your nitpicking analysis, he is a better writer than you would be. Because he knows when to break the rules. Because audiences care more about drama and cheap thrills than consistency and realism, and they always will. These things you rail against every day are insignificant. In the end, no one will remember whether O-Chul should have taken enough damage in Panel 4 of strip #658 to be killed. They will remember the main thrust of the story.

And you can spend all day pounding on the keyboard, dissecting other people's posts sentence-by-sentence, trying to convince people that they should care about the same things you care about, but they never will. Ever.

And for that, I am happy, because it means Rich will continue writing his story exactly the way he is: full of drama and cheap thrills.

No disrespect to David, but SPOD is right on the money. The objective is to tell an interesting story, not to run a simulation.

It's the same thing in a game. If it's a competitive game as at a tournament, then of course we go by the letter of the rules and never fudge a die roll. But if it's a pick-up game between friends, the DM has an overriding obligation to keep things fun. That means occasionally using a fudged die roll or a plot hammer to keep the party from dying instantly.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Undead Prince]

it's worthwhile to criticize the comic according to the rules of drama, but as soon as you need to invoke the rules of D&D to make your point, as soon as you start talking about dice, you've lost.

Again with the discrimination against D&D?

"Speed of plot" makes "rules of drama" just as worthless, or just as worthy, as rules of the game, in terms of criticism. The author is as free to break the former as the latter.

So don't go around claiming that your approach is the only legitimate one. OoTS is a parody of a specific game with specific rules. The author himself occasionally went to great lengths to explain how events transpired in the comic in compliance with the D&D ruleset, this very thread being a recent example. The game has a defining influence upon the comic, one that is not to be discarded so easily; and its aficionados have all the rights to examine the comic from this standpoint.

"That was too easy!" is a legitimate complaint (and, in this case, can be countered by "They drank a bunch of potions of unknown effect").

"Unknown effect" is again too easy a copout. Your argument is self-defeating, unless your "rules of drama" do not include believability, internal consistency, and respect for the audience. Why bother with potions at all if they're used to do something they shouldn't be able to?

However, that is not the case in the comic.

Cure Serious Wounds has a maximum effect of healing 39 hp. Two of those would be 78 hp.

Meteor Swarm's (2d6+6d6)*4 has a minimum of 32 damage, and that's assuming all the spheres hit and the target fails all the Reflex saves.

So, technically, two potions could give a negative-hp O-Chul enough wherewithal to withstand a Meteor Swarm. Sure, it would involve good luck on healing, and bad luck on damage rolls, but that kind of karma is within the artistic license, IMHO.

But "That should have caused 12d6 damage and they can only have up to 2d8+6 hit points" runs up against the stated intent of the author.

The author, to my knowledge, never stated an intent that the characters can do "whatever". Neither can this be corroborated from the comic. The characters' actions are in line with possible (though not often optimal) behaviour.

And a character with up to 2d8+6 hp (22 max) can survive 12d6 damage (12 min), if he rolled high on hp and the damage rolled very low.

This is, in my mind, one of the variations of the "Roleplaying vs. Mechanics" debates. The Rules are very specific regarding those. And I again refer you to the author's recent post for his position concerning the legitimacy of diverging opinions.

[rewinn]

That would be a different comic.

Ha! Excellent point! Which leads me to the Most Unlikely Prediction Ever....

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In issue 9999 , the Snarl gets free; the gods ask the Dark One for help, which he agrees to on condition they give him the East Continent to remake into Goblins but there's a screw-up and it turns into
ErfWorld. The End!

[rewinn]

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Not entirely. Roy did insist on helping those orcs in OtOoPCs, remember?

None of the good guys is very likely to reach out to Redcloak, and frankly, it would be a mistake if they did. To Redcloak's brother, to Redcloak's niece, maybe...But Redcloak has way too much invested in Xykon and his own inability to admit that he's wrong.

Thanks for the reminder about Roy!

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SoD suggests there's going to be A Very Awkward Moment when Xykon figures out that his plans conflict with those of Redcloak & The Dark One. (Actually, by now I would not think it unlikely that he's up on the situation, but is playing along because he's having fun. As he pointed out in SoD, he doesn't mind what Redcloak thinks so long as he obeys.)

When Xykon, Redcloak, The Dark One, the Gods of three pantheons and the Snarl all break into open conflict, the Order may have to ally with whatever it can. It'll be fun to see!

[Rotipher]

[So, technically, two potions could give a negative-hp O-Chul enough wherewithal to withstand a Meteor Swarm. Sure, it would involve good luck on healing, and bad luck on damage rolls, but that kind of karma is within the artistic license, IMHO.

Hmmm... maybe it is karma, in a way. The previous comic's title was "Second Chance", which is obviously a reference to V and O-Chul getting another opportunity to mess things up for Xykon ... but it's also very similar to "One Chance", the title of #629. On that page, V missed Mama Dragon with what, in game terms, had to be a natural 1 (= minimum possible result). So maybe karma was making up for that in #657, by letting vir get the maximum benefit from the potions this time?

[spanky69]

All I have to say it LOL about "Pop!" There's some classic gaming right there...

GM - You're using your rail gun?

PC - Yes.

GM - Where've you been carrying it?

PC - Uhh... on my back.

GM - But you haven't used the rail gun in at least 3 adventures... You've been carrying that rail gun and its pack with you all that time?

PC - Yes.

GM - Random Environment Encounter: A comet streaks down and lands on your dumb head and you die.

[aarondirebear]

I have a gut wrenching feeling that this is a Xanatos gambit of some kind.
That the phylactery isn't really the phylactery, but rather some other powerful artifact that Xykon can't destroy himself but NEEDS to have destroyed in order to obtain greater powers.

[jere7my]

Again with the discrimination against D&D?

I'm not discriminating against D&D — I love D&D. I am saying that Rich is not running a D&D simulation, and thus slavish attention to the D&D rules is not going to pay off when analyzing his comic. From the FAQ:

Writer and Babylon 5 creator J. Michael Straczynski had a standard answer for overzealous fans who would ask him obscure questions like, "How fast does a Starfury (the show's standard fighter ship) fly?" He would say, "They travel at the speed of plot," meaning that if the script called for them to get somewhere in a certain amount of time, they could; and if the script called for them to get there too late, they couldn't. The Order of the Stick travels almost exclusively at the speed of plot.

To make it explicit, everyone asking "How much healing could those potions have done?" and "How much damage could a Meteor Swarm do?" is really asking "How fast does a Starfury fly?" The answer is "They travel at the speed of plot": the potions did enough healing to survive a Meteor Swarm. Q.E.D.

"Speed of plot" makes "rules of drama" just as worthless, or just as worthy, as rules of the game, in terms of criticism. The author is as free to break the former as the latter.

I'm not sure I follow that. JMS's quote, above, was an acknowledgment that perfect consistency must sometimes be sacrificed to make the engine of the plot go, especially in an ongoing serial, and if you pick at it too much you'll make it harder for yourself to enjoy the story. I.e., the "speed of plot" serves the "rules of drama". Referring to an outside rulebook, which the author of the work has said he's not following precisely, is a whole 'nother animal.

So don't go around claiming that your approach is the only legitimate one.

I am claiming that Rich's approach is the one I lend more weight to.

"Unknown effect" is again too easy a copout. Your argument is self-defeating, unless your "rules of drama" do not include believability, internal consistency, and respect for the audience. Why bother with potions at all if they're used to do something they shouldn't be able to?

Because your "shouldn't be able to" depends on something external to the comic — the rules of D&D — which the author has gone out of his way to say he's not following precisely. Any time you need to pull out a rulebook or look up the SRD to make your point, you've lost. "Those potions don't exist in D&D!" is a null argument.

By the rules of drama, the potions we saw them drink were Potions of Doing Enough Healing to Survive the Next Attack. You don't need to be able to find them in a rulebook somewhere to satisfy the rules of drama. As long as it's plausible for Jirix to have had a few Potions of Doing Enough Healing to Survive the Next Attack, the rules of drama are satisfied.

[aarondirebear]

For those of you saying potions of, for instance, Heal, can't exist, I'd like to point out that there IS in fact a prestige class from the Forgotten Realms that allows one to brew potions of up to NINTH level.

[Menas]

I think the 'Second Chance' title for strip 657 was referring to Vaar having a second chance to help the paladins while invisible instead of bailing on them.

The first time (when the goblins were attacking AC) there wasn't really anything Vaar could have done to help the paladins - compromising his/her/it's invisibility with no spells left would have only resulted in Vaar's demise for no real purpose. It still haunted V. though, partially because of what one of the paladins said when they didn't receive any help from V.

This time Vaar had the opportunity to do something that could actually help O-Chul, instead of leaving him to die - which is exactly what Vaar did (after thinking about it), even though V. put his/her/it's life in danger by doing so.

V. had every opportunity to escape through the hole in the wall prior to coming back to save O-Chul. And now Vaar. might be rewarded for his Heroic behavior by being able to help destroy the phylactery!

[Ellye]

Here's a tip for the people complaining about the lack of "D&D-realism":
Go sit at the side of a RPG table watching a playgroup instead of reading a comic. And gods forbid the group you're watching from rolling behind a screen.

This is a story. This is not a game, and it's not a story about a game. It's a story, and an excellent one. Just appreciate it.

[Kish]

I think the 'Second Chance' title for strip 657 was referring to Vaar having a second chance to help the paladins while invisible instead of bailing on them.

It's "Second Chances," plural, and I think it means at least two. One (more than one, actually) is Vaarsuvius' chance to help O-Chul. Another is O-Chul's chance, being free and next to Xykon's phylactery again.

I'm still not certain that the dream Vaarsuvius experienced while trancing is meant to be a recreation of a literal event, rather than his/her subconscious tormenting him/her about not being able to help the Sapphire Guard in the previous scenes we saw. If it is, though, s/he failed in one big obvious way that I'm surprised you're glossing over here:

S/he remained silent until they were dead.

You don't need spells, or to break an invisibility spell, to reply to a request for help with, "I have no spells left, fly you fools!" For that matter, considering the meta nature of OotS, Vaarsuvius might feel guilty for having focused on wizardry as the cure for everything.

[Lamech]

Meteor Swarm has a Big area of effect. 40' radius. 80' from side to side, and the standard movement is 30. Quite simply O-Chul can't get out of the range of V unless one of those potions was haste, which means he dies from damage.

Really? Because it doesn't look like it. Not in this or any of the swarms that have been shown. Ever. The radius is much smaller than is standard DnD

As far as I can see, O-Chul in panel 1 is the same as in panel 6. And V is also not changed in damage.

They took no damage? Hmm... readied move action away from where the meteor swarms were targeted. If we go with reduced radius it would be possible. Hurrah for badly defiened readied action rules! (You set in regards to a condition.) At the very least one of them would be protected, both if Xykon aimed his spell at the ground.

I'm too lazy to do the math, but the chance of getting 65-80 points of curing is on the order of 5%. You are rolling 9 dice and when you start rolling handfuls of dice, you end up really close to average a really large percentage of the time.
And of course, this is assuming they are all Cure Serious.

Looking at the standard deviation of a 8 sided die and using what I remember about the applying it (which may be totally wrong I took stats like two years ago.) Getting a result in the 60s is about three in ten. I'm just going to assume that Rich doesn't analyze the odds of these things happening with math, but uses experience. A little observation bias on his part and he would think that this is fairly likely. And it is not as bad as other stuff.

[Logalmier]

Okay, I don't care much about the meteor swarms... Rich's world, Rich's rules. I am however confused why v is no longer choking, can someone please explain?

[Kish]

Okay, I don't care much about the meteor swarms... Rich's world, Rich's rules. I am however confused why v is no longer choking, can someone please explain?

...Because Xykon's hands aren't around his/her throat anymore? Is this a joke I'm not getting?

[One Skunk Todd]

...Because Xykon's hands aren't around his/her throat anymore? Is this a joke I'm not getting?

I could be wrong but I think in the real world if a human throat is crushed, simply releasing the pressure won't necessarily open it back up again.

[Kaytara]

It's "Second Chances," plural, and I think it means at least two. One (more than one, actually) is Vaarsuvius' chance to help O-Chul. Another is O-Chul's chance, being free and next to Xykon's phylactery again.

Actually, I'm pretty sure it's Second Chance, singular. ^^; Double-checked it before posting. Not that it really matters...

I'm still not certain that the dream Vaarsuvius experienced while trancing is meant to be a recreation of a literal event, rather than his/her subconscious tormenting him/her about not being able to help the Sapphire Guard in the previous scenes we saw. If it is, though, s/he failed in one big obvious way that I'm surprised you're glossing over here:

Well, DnD elves cannot dream, i.e. see something that did not happen in their trancing. They can only review and meditate on that which already happened. But more to the point, Vaarsuvius explicitly calls it a memory: "It is... inefficient to review the same memory over and over. And over." in "Running Away".

S/he remained silent until they were dead.

You don't need spells, or to break an invisibility spell, to reply to a request for help with, "I have no spells left, fly you fools!" For that matter, considering the meta nature of OotS, Vaarsuvius might feel guilty for having focused on wizardry as the cure for everything.

Yeah, that's how I read it, too. The fact that V somewhat shakily but immediately admits to O-Chul that he has no escape spells remaining is also meant to be in contrast to that, I think. Back during the battle, the idea itself of not having spells that could save the day left him completely paralyzed with panic and indecision. (While he did not say anything, it's noteworthy that he did not leave, either.) Now, the fact that he immediately admits it to O-Chul and to himself may have the purpose of showing that he's gotten over thinking inside the Power=Spells and Only Spells box.

[Menas]

It's "Second Chances," plural, and I think it means at least two. One (more than one, actually) is Vaarsuvius' chance to help O-Chul. Another is O-Chul's chance, being free and next to Xykon's phylactery again.

Hmm... well, if you look at the index of the comic strips, it actually says 'Second Chance' (singular), which is why I took it to have the meaning I applied to it:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots.html

Although this is definitely another chance for O-Chul to have a shot at freeing himself and putting the hurt on Xykon.

Based on the way V. was drawn and alluded to during the strip, I was drawn towards believing that the title was more about V. than anything else.

I'm still not certain that the dream Vaarsuvius experienced while trancing is meant to be a recreation of a literal event, rather than his/her subconscious tormenting him/her about not being able to help the Sapphire Guard in the previous scenes we saw. If it is, though, s/he failed in one big obvious way that I'm surprised you're glossing over here:

S/he remained silent until they were dead.

You don't need spells, or to break an invisibility spell, to reply to a request for help with, "I have no spells left, fly you fools!" For that matter, considering the meta nature of OotS, Vaarsuvius might feel guilty for having focused on wizardry as the cure for everything.

That's true, V. could have given a verbal warning at least which would have been ideal. But he's not used to being completely out of spells and feeling useless, so he might have been shell-shocked and not thinking clearly.

Also, if he'd made too much noise the goblins might have heard him and then he still would have died for no good reason.

Kaytara's post went up for mine and made a lot of good points. Sorry for any redundancies that appeared in mine as a result!

[Kish]

I could be wrong but I think in the real world if a human throat is crushed, simply releasing the pressure won't necessarily open it back up again.

Good thing Vaarsuvius isn't human then, eh? Sorry, I couldn't resist. More seriously, the question seems to answer itself. Would Vaarsuvius still be unable to breathe if Xykon had crushed his/her windpipe before letting go? Yes. Can Vaarsuvius breathe? Yes. Therefore, Xykon did not do that.

Hmm... well, if you look at the index of the comic strips, it actually says 'Second Chance' (singular), which is why I took it to have the meaning I applied to it:

So it does. Huh. I think it was "Second Chances" when it was in the sidebar, but I'm not positive, in any case. I still think multiple meanings are intended, though.

That's true, V. could have given a verbal warning at least which would have been ideal. But he's not used to being completely out of spells and feeling useless, so he might have been shell-shocked and not thinking clearly.

Which gives him/her something very concrete to feel guilty about, doesn't it?

Also, if he'd made too much noise the goblins might have heard him and then he still would have died for no good reason.

How could they have found him/her? "We're outdoors, we have no spellcasters with us, and there's an invisible elf here!--Somewhere!"

[Menas]

How could they have found him/her? "We're outdoors, we have no spellcasters with us, and there's an invisible elf here!--Somewhere!"

Well, I think it was in the frame directly after one of the paladins realized Vaar. was there, that the goblins ran in and hacked them all to pieces. So it would be kind of foolhardy for V. to yell out a warning at the top of his lungs to the soldiers when the goblins are about 10 yards away and coming right at him. It wouldn't take much for them at that point to realize the yell hadn't come from any of the soldiers they were about to kill, along with allowing them to pinpoint Vaar's approximate location.

[Porthos]

(bolding for emphasis)

Rich stated a long time ago that he is writing a story, not transcribing a gaming session. If you find that Rich writing a story based on a world that runs mostly by D&D rules to not work unless every last mechanic is enforced and Rich actually "writes" the story by rolling the dice rather than dramatic writing, then you are only going to get upset, as I am pretty sure that Rich has no intention of changing. If it's that much of a problem, then please don't make yourself unhappy by fighting a battle that you are only going to lose to the author.

The point that is being missed:

In D&D we roll dice when we attempt an action and the dice describe the result of our attempt. This is the opposite to writing, where the result is determined first. Any "mechanics" then have to match the result, not the other way round.

This.

This, this this.

Look very few people, including Rich, are arguing that the rules of DnD are unimportant. What people are arguing, however, is that if push comes to shove, that if the story absolutely demands it, that if there is no way to simulate what is going on without being clunky, then damn the rules.

This isn't being discriminatory against DnD. This is realizing that this a different art form than a game session. Yes, Rich does try to make sure that everything in the comic applies to DnD logic. For instance, he won't have Roy suddenly casting spells. And he won't have Xykon suddenly be a master swordsman. And, yes, he will make sure that characters approximately act according to their power level (at least the power level in his head).

But what he won't do is allow the rules and tropes of DnD to override his main story. So if that means he creates spells and artifacts that explicilty break the rules, so be it. If he creates potions that are too powerful by Core, again, so be it. And if he ignores things like splash damage on Meteor Swarm, again, so be it.

The thing is, the comic is at least 99% consistant with DnD rules (if not how it is "expected" to be played). So if there is a stray rule-bending/rule breaking along the way (like a potion of Cure Critcial Wounds), so be it.

[Porthos]

Okay, I don't care much about the meteor swarms... Rich's world, Rich's rules. I am however confused why v is no longer choking, can someone please explain?

I could be wrong but I think in the real world if a human throat is crushed, simply releasing the pressure won't necessarily open it back up again.

What could be going on here is that Xykon was attempting a Coup-de-grace and was stopped by O-Chul. Thus the sounds we heard was Xykon attempting the c-d-e, and the next strip showing O-Chul distracting Xykon enough (by stealing the phyclatry) to stop it.*

A bit of a kludge? Perhaps. But one that seems to be consistent enough for the spirit of DnD, if not the actual rules.

* Actually as a c-d-e allows for an Attack of Opportunity by a person who is threatening someone, then this makes perfect sense:

Xykon attempts to coup-de-grace V.
O-Chul grabs the phyclatry as an Attack of Oppritunity.
Xykon (in a minor fit of rule bending) breaks off his c-d-e.

Comic strip proceeds as seen.

[Pip]

Simple solution to this 'he couldn't have healed enough from the potions to survive the ...' quandry.

The potion bottles held more than one dose each.

[Alaska Fan]

I am thinking that RedCloak's holy symbol has, as one of the "so many abjuration spells protecting that thing, I've forgotten what half of them actually do." must be protection from and/or resist energy (fire)

... if that is the case it only takes a very small amount of house ruling to have it protect O'chul (even though not worn around his neck) and also V (because he is being carried by O'Chul at the time and therefore can, by a generous GM interested in a good story line, be considered to be a carried item or possession) ... then O'Chul only has to eat the impact damage from whatever meteors actually manage to hit him (looks like at least one did) and the fire damage from each explosion at -30hp damage each and V takes the fire damage at -30hp for each meteor

Does this make sense? Are there any good arguments against it (aside from the quibbles about what consitutes "properly equipped magic item" and "carried equipment"

Let's follow where that leads. Assume you are right, and that some of the spells protecting the phylactry have been overcome by the Meteor Swarm. In effect, it has reduced hit points. Assume

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X, while not the brightest bulb in the chandelier, recognizes this. If Blackwing is flying to the Snarl with the phylactry, does he hesitate to blast Blackwing for worry of destroying his own bling? Or does he forget, blast away, and destroy Blackwing and the phylactry he is trying to save?

It would be kind of cool, you know, to have Xykon do it himself.

[Zea mays]

It's refreshing to see V being well, nice to a paladin (or anyone). Last time someone expected flying help from him he didn't react so well.

Character development for the win.