OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

[Undead Prince]

I'm not discriminating against D&D — I love D&D. I am saying that Rich is not running a D&D simulation, and thus slavish attention to the D&D rules is not going to pay off when analyzing his comic.

Don't ascribe your own views to the author. And stop with the passive-aggressive insults. "Slavish" attention to the rules? What, we're "slaves" now? Seriously! Have you ever read the author's own posts on what goes on in the comic? Did his attention to the rules "pay off"? Or would you prefer him just saying "Power of PLOT demands this, so begone, unbelievers!"? He didn't, right?

Now, there's a specific rule in the Forum Rules about not arguing that "roleplaying" is somehow inherently superior to "mechanics" (and vice versa), why do you think this does not apply to other differences of opinion? Why do you deny others the value of their points of view?

From the FAQ:

There is nothing in the FAQ that would proclaim complete disregard for the rules. Unoptimal behaviour of the characters - yes, that's more or less the fuel of the story. But D&D rules are the backbone of the story. And I refer you back to FAQ's #1 question - "The Order of the Stick is a comic that parodies fantasy roleplaying games, specifically, Dungeons & Dragons... ultimately, OOTS will remain rooted in gaming jokes in the future".

To make it explicit, everyone asking "How much healing could those potions have done?" and "How much damage could a Meteor Swarm do?" is really asking "How fast does a Starfury fly?" The answer is "They travel at the speed of plot": the potions did enough healing to survive a Meteor Swarm. Q.E.D.

You're arguing with yourself. My point was entirely different: the potions could, as per D&D, give the effect they gave; there was no Deus ex Machina, no bending of the rules to fit the plot. The result didn't follow the average rolls, but that's what luck is all about. So there is no reason to declare that D&D rules hold no sway. D&D is still the physics of the OoTS world, and thus a perfectly legitimate ground for discussing the comic.

I'm not sure I follow that. JMS's quote, above, was an acknowledgment that perfect consistency must sometimes be sacrificed to make the engine of the plot go, especially in an ongoing serial, and if you pick at it too much you'll make it harder for yourself to enjoy the story. I.e., the "speed of plot" serves the "rules of drama". Referring to an outside rulebook, which the author of the work has said he's not following precisely, is a whole 'nother animal.

The "rules of drama", as you call them, do not bind the author any more than D&D rules (in fact, less in my opinion). So there is no basis to claim that analysis based on "rules of drama" is inherently superior, and analysis based on D&D is always false.

I am claiming that Rich's approach is the one I lend more weight to.

No, that's your approach. See? Your, not the author's. You're not his mouthpiece, so stop claiming to be one.

Because your "shouldn't be able to" depends on something external to the comic — the rules of D&D — which the author has gone out of his way to say he's not following precisely.

He had also gone out of his way several times to painstakingly explain how the transpiring events are really true to the rules of D&D. And they are true (nearly always, much as I can say). Besides, the stated objective of the comic is parody of D&D. Therefore, analysis on the basis of D&D rules is a perfectly legitimate, if perhaps not all-encompassing, approach to the comic.

Any time you need to pull out a rulebook or look up the SRD to make your point, you've lost. "Those potions don't exist in D&D!" is a null argument.

Again, I refer you to all the instances when the author personally explained how certain events were consistent with D&D rules. Usually, this was done in response to doubting fans.

He tries hard to adhere to the rules. What you're doing is actually undermining this effort of his, claiming that it's useless and unimportant, and those that find it interesting and engaging are wrong. Well, guess what - it's your personal opinion, nothing more, and other posters have a right to approach the comic from their own angle.

By the rules of drama, the potions we saw them drink were Potions of Doing Enough Healing to Survive the Next Attack. You don't need to be able to find them in a rulebook somewhere to satisfy the rules of drama.

I will refer you to Redcloak scouring the sourcebooks to find undead that suited his needs; or Tsukiko going through sourcebooks to find needed spells; and numerous other occasions when characters consciously sought and used various supplementary rules.

By your logic, this was all superfluous. In your opinion, readers don't need/want to hear about particular D&D rules & mechanics involved in the action. In your opinion, readers don't care about this. And those that do care, those that find this side of the comic fascinating and engaging, are wrong by default.

Well, you know what? Your "rules of drama" are actually "rules of bad writing". The sort of inconsistency when writers are forced to break their own world in order to accommodate their latest fancy is indeed the trademark of B-grade movies and TV shows. I am eminently glad that OoTS does not follow this path. The occasional liberties the author may take with regard to the D&D ruleset do not negate the general respect it enjoys. And those of us who like this part of the comic are perfectly entitled to analyse the rules' application in the strips.

[Charlie Kemek]

fyi, in this comic, V his/her self calls her raven a "he" in it.

[Sequinox]

Will it break if it drops a thousand feet? (Guess on the tower's height)

I mean, the common idea would be to say 'Yeah, it's d6 per 10 feet!' However, there are the protecting spells on the phylactery, and they might be enough to prevent its destruction.

Here's to hoping his phylactery gets busted, though.

[Milandros]

What could be going on here is that Xykon was attempting a Coup-de-grace and was stopped by O-Chul. Thus the sounds we heard was Xykon attempting the c-d-e, and the next strip showing O-Chul distracting Xykon enough (by stealing the phyclatry) to stop it.*

A bit of a kludge? Perhaps. But one that seems to be consistent enough for the spirit of DnD, if not the actual rules.

* Actually as a c-d-e allows for an Attack of Opportunity by a person who is threatening someone, then this makes perfect sense:

Xykon attempts to coup-de-grace V.
O-Chul grabs the phyclatry as an Attack of Oppritunity.
Xykon (in a minor fit of rule bending) breaks off his c-d-e.

Comic strip proceeds as seen.

Or, as seems most likely, the sound wasn't anything to do with V's windpipe, but indicated the invisibility fading.

[Hithros]

Errrr.....How does a familiar increase throw distance? Unless Blackwing is going to carry it....

[mec]

The characters are in Azure City.

A few months ago, the inhabitants of Azure City worshipped the Twelve Gods of the South. Plus there was a secret order of paladins bound to protect the rift.

Now, Azure City has been overthrown by worshippers of the Dark One, the Twelve Gods have a handful of worshippers left in the resistance, and just a few paladins.

O-Chul is a paladin of the Twelve Gods. He's also a badass, a paragon, and a living example of courage and fortitude to everyone who sees him.

So perhaps the Twelve Gods are backing him up with a little extra power.

[jere7my]

The "rules of drama", as you call them, do not bind the author any more than D&D rules (in fact, less in my opinion). So there is no basis to claim that analysis based on "rules of drama" is inherently superior, and analysis based on D&D is always false.

The rules of drama are universally applicable, and they can be used to examine any work of fiction (though they can, like all rules, be broken artfully). The rules of D&D only apply to D&D. (In particular, we have been told specifically that they don't always apply to OotS.)

No, that's your approach. See? Your, not the author's. You're not his mouthpiece, so stop claiming to be one.

I think what I'm doing is quoting Rich's own words from the FAQ, which I don't see you responding to.

Again, I refer you to all the instances when the author personally explained how certain events were consistent with D&D rules. Usually, this was done in response to doubting fans.

He tries hard to adhere to the rules. What you're doing is actually undermining this effort of his, claiming that it's useless and unimportant, and those that find it interesting and engaging are wrong. Well, guess what - it's your personal opinion, nothing more, and other posters have a right to approach the comic from their own angle.

Of course you have that right (though it might lead you in the wrong direction), and of course the strip is riffing off the rules and foibles of D&D. What I think is misguided is saying, "Rich screwed up because that couldn't happen in D&D," which I see time and time again on these boards. It's not a screwup if you say "I'm more interested in telling the story than I am in slavishly following every detail of the rules" and then go on to have some rule inconsistencies so you can tell a better story.

Rich is working in a unique situation here. When JMS was writing Babylon 5, there were no technical manuals for Starfuries out there, no timetables of jumpgate travel. If he wanted a Starfury to get to Z'ha'dum in 14 hours to make the plot work out, he could. Rich, on the other hand, has books and books of preexisting "rules" for his universe; if he limited himself to following them precisely, the story would be strangled. He knows the rules very well, and can twist them around in lots of fun ways to make the plot work, and in fact I'd be willing to bet that he finds it fun to tell a story within the strictures of the SRD. But sometimes the rules get in the way of the story. So he follows the rules when it suits him, as far as I can tell, and ignores them when they would hinder the plot. This is what I take his response in the FAQ to mean, and why I don't think there's much merit to bickering over rule minutiae.

That said, go to town, if that's what floats your boat. (Though when every reaction thread turns into a full-scale bickerfest over the meaning of the word "replenish", I reserve the right to wish you'd do it elsewhere.)

I will refer you to Redcloak scouring the sourcebooks to find undead that suited his needs; or Tsukiko going through sourcebooks to find needed spells; and numerous other occasions when characters consciously sought and used various supplementary rules.

By your logic, this was all superfluous. In your opinion, readers don't need/want to hear about particular D&D rules & mechanics involved in the action. In your opinion, readers don't care about this. And those that do care, those that find this side of the comic fascinating and engaging, are wrong by default.

You're putting a lot of words in my mouth. I believe people are "wrong by default" when they say, "That couldn't have happened because a D&D rulebook says otherwise." Rich is building off the D&D ruleset, sure, but he is not limited by it. Of course it's fun to point out all the callbacks and references to D&D, and that's clearly a part of what Rich is doing here. But the D&D rules shouldn't be seen as a limitation on what is possible in the comic, in part because its creator has come right out and told us that he doesn't use them that way.

[jidasfire]

Hey, remember when this thread was about how cool the comic is and not a bloody war of attrition about rules minutiae and telling the author he's wrong? Yeah, me neither.

Perhaps a little perspective might help. If you're going to a community of fans of a comic you care enough about to comment on, but instead of engaging in lively discussion of theories and shared enthusiasm, you're spewing anger and frustration, and on top of that, doing line-by-line dissection of other people's posts in a seething rage, you are doing it wrong. Go outside, take a breath, marvel at the world around you, and remember life's too short for nerd rage. No one will cheer you if you win anyway.

Seriously. Enjoy the ride or don't. But don't drag everyone else's time down, including the author's, because of it.

[One Skunk Todd]

Errrr.....How does a familiar increase throw distance? Unless Blackwing is going to carry it....

It would be interesting to see if

Spoiler

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O'chul could throw Blackwing and then Blackwing could fly further towards the rift in one round or turn or whatever it's called. Would that get him closer to the rift than him simply taking his action to fly to the rift.

[Red XIV]

And I refer you back to FAQ's #1 question - "The Order of the Stick is a comic that parodies fantasy roleplaying games, specifically, Dungeons & Dragons... ultimately, OOTS will remain rooted in gaming jokes in the future".

As I recall, the FAQ hasn't been updated in over 3 years. OOTS has evolved since then, and the story aspect has grown in importance over the "D&D rules jokes" aspect.

[rewinn]

Simple solution to this 'he couldn't have healed enough from the potions to survive the ...' quandry.

The potion bottles held more than one dose each.

Yep. Remember, this isn't just some abandoned booty from a 1st-level goblin hoard; it's the personal equipment of a very high-ranking officer in a very-well organized army of many thousands.

It's not at all implausible to think such an officer would keep potions sufficient to fully heal himself or Redcloak, who we know from 652 likes to take defensive precautions. It's a bit of backstory we'll probably never know, but wouldn't it be ironic if V took unknowing advantage of Redcloak's wise precaution to bring O-Chul back online?

[abishur]

Poor Blackwing.

Also, if the Snarl eats Xykon's soul, then he can't remake the soul-hidey place. Which means the next time he's gone, he's gone for good.

Actually, The Start of Darkness makes it 100% clear that destroying the phylactery while Xy is still "alive" won't do a single thing (page 74). His soul is only in there if his "body" is destroyed and then leaves again after it is regenerated. The only advantage of destroying the phylactery is that it might force Xy to retreat until a new one can be remade.

[factotum]

Actually, The Start of Darkness makes it 100% clear that destroying the phylactery while Xy is still "alive" won't do a single thing (page 74). His soul is only in there if his "body" is destroyed and then leaves again after it is regenerated. The only advantage of destroying the phylactery is that it might force Xy to retreat until a new one can be remade.

Plot speculation follows:

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Given how badly damaged Xykon is right now, I think his first move if they destroy the phylactery will be to go looking for Redcloak...and if Redcloak's Word of Recall *did* take him somewhere outside the bounds of Azure City, that could be the plot impetus that sees Xykon leave as well. Of course, that still leaves the minor matter of a sizeable hobgoblin army for V and O-Chul to get through, but the foreshadowing of a possible slave revolt we saw earlier might cover that.

[abishur]

Plot speculation follows:

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Given how badly damaged Xykon is right now, I think his first move if they destroy the phylactery will be to go looking for Redcloak...and if Redcloak's Word of Recall *did* take him somewhere outside the bounds of Azure City, that could be the plot impetus that sees Xykon leave as well. Of course, that still leaves the minor matter of a sizeable hobgoblin army for V and O-Chul to get through, but the foreshadowing of a possible slave revolt we saw earlier might cover that.

oh, absolutely.

[Omegonthesane]

Actually, The Start of Darkness makes it 100% clear that destroying the phylactery while Xy is still "alive" won't do a single thing (page 74). His soul is only in there if his "body" is destroyed and then leaves again after it is regenerated. The only advantage of destroying the phylactery is that it might force Xy to retreat until a new one can be remade.

Apparently it's more likely by the rules that liches can never remake their phylacteries, so destroying the phylactery won't directly hurt Xykon but it probably will mean he's on his last life, no continues, when he's down he's down. Sadly this will likely make him actually take every combat seriously, but he does when it begins to threaten his unlife anyway.

[Dr. Cthulwho]

Hey, remember when this thread was about how cool the comic is and not a bloody war of attrition about rules minutiae and telling the author he's wrong? Yeah, me neither.

Perhaps a little perspective might help. If you're going to a community of fans of a comic you care enough about to comment on, but instead of engaging in lively discussion of theories and shared enthusiasm, you're spewing anger and frustration, and on top of that, doing line-by-line dissection of other people's posts in a seething rage, you are doing it wrong. Go outside, take a breath, marvel at the world around you, and remember life's too short for nerd rage. No one will cheer you if you win anyway.

Seriously. Enjoy the ride or don't. But don't drag everyone else's time down, including the author's, because of it.

This man does speak the truth!

Errrr.....How does a familiar increase throw distance? Unless Blackwing is going to carry it....

I do believe that is what is being suggested - why throw it when you can fly it?

It would be interesting to see if

Spoiler

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O'chul could throw Blackwing and then Blackwing could fly further towards the rift in one round or turn or whatever it's called. Would that get him closer to the rift than him simply taking his action to fly to the rift.

Only O-Chul could improve on a bird's natural flying ability by throwing it first.

Still birds are pretty light and not the best shape for long distance throwing, unless you could get it hold position like a paper airplane.

[Dr. Cthulwho]

Plot speculation follows:

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Given how badly damaged Xykon is right now, I think his first move if they destroy the phylactery will be to go looking for Redcloak...and if Redcloak's Word of Recall *did* take him somewhere outside the bounds of Azure City, that could be the plot impetus that sees Xykon leave as well. Of course, that still leaves the minor matter of a sizeable hobgoblin army for V and O-Chul to get through, but the foreshadowing of a possible slave revolt we saw earlier might cover that.

My interest is seeing Xykon without Redcloak. Although he doesn't show it Xykon is pretty dependent on Redcloak for planning and thinking. So wandering off alone? With no idea where Redcloak is? It would be interesting to see.

Of course Azure City still has lots of lower level Hobgoblin clerics and Tsukiko, so being badly damaged shouldn't be a huge hindrance to Xykon. I imagine if he does leave he'll probably be taking Tsukiko and MitD with him.

[David Argall]

I'm not discriminating against D&D — I love D&D. I am saying that Rich is not running a D&D simulation, and thus slavish attention to the D&D rules is not going to pay off when analyzing his comic.

Slavish attention may not pay off, but knowledge of D&D rules definitely improves appreciation of this strip. So yes, the author is running a D&D simulation [and like most simulations, there are differences from the original, but it is still a simulation].
D&D gives us a much greater understanding about what is going on here. When we refer to D&D rules, we are referring to our understanding of what is happening in the strip. And that means that each deviation from the rules carries an automatic black mark against it. That mark can be overcome, sometimes easily, but it still exists and it is up to the deviation to justify itself.

To make it explicit, everyone asking "How much healing could those potions have done?" and "How much damage could a Meteor Swarm do?" is really asking "How fast does a Starfury fly?" The answer is "They travel at the speed of plot": the potions did enough healing to survive a Meteor Swarm. Q.E.D.

This is correct only in the short range and small numbers. The more we develop "facts" about how a world operates, the more such a claim jars and destroys our suspension of disbelief. When the Starfury moves fast, then slow, and then a completely different speed without obvious reason, we have problems.

JMS's quote, above, was an acknowledgment that perfect consistency must sometimes be sacrificed to make the engine of the plot go,

Now notice how you say "perfect consistency" and "sometimes". You are admitting there is a sacrifice, a loss, and that the more it happens, the worse for the story.

Referring to an outside rulebook, which the author of the work has said he's not following precisely,

Again with the quibble which reverses the meaning. He is following the rulebook, sometimes quite closely, and routinely usefully in understanding the story.

I am claiming that Rich's approach is the one I lend more weight to.

Of course, but that does not mean it is without error.

[Jowston]

Let's follow where that leads. Assume you are right, and that some of the spells protecting the phylactry have been overcome by the Meteor Swarm. In effect, it has reduced hit points. Assume

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X, while not the brightest bulb in the chandelier, recognizes this. If Blackwing is flying to the Snarl with the phylactry, does he hesitate to blast Blackwing for worry of destroying his own bling? Or does he forget, blast away, and destroy Blackwing and the phylactry he is trying to save?

It would be kind of cool, you know, to have Xykon do it himself.

That would be the twist I would love to see. Xykon goes <insert spell here> and laughs pointing, we then see bot bird and phylactry evaporate away..
2 panels of Xykon staring and pointing and finally his jaw falls off.

[Simanos]

...

My problem doesn't have to do with D&D mechanics, but with bad storytelling. It's like when a character is put in a fridge and a nuclear bomb explodes near him, he's blasted miles away and into the air and crashes on the ground and then miraculously gets out with out most of the bones in his body broken. In fact he's quite well, merely a flesh wound. It doesn't matter that I know Meteor Swarm is 9th level or 5th. As a reader I know it's a powerful spell (not a weak one) and Xykon is a powerful caster and V and O are already near death (a couple of times) and it's unreasonable that the poor goblin that died had "super" potions or something.

[factotum]

and it's unreasonable that the poor goblin that died had "super" potions or something.

But WHY is that unreasonable? Firstly, we've seen super healing potions before--Elan got healed to full health by one back in one of the early comics. Secondly, Jirix was high-ranking enough to be hobnobbing with Xykon and Redcloak, which implies he's a bit more than your average run-of-the-mill goblin and might well have a few decent potions about his person.

To be honest, the only thing I find a little hard to believe about the whole situation is that V apparently knew the potions were there, and one could suppose he just checked without having a plan B for what would happen if Jirix didn't have any healing on him...

[Simanos]

But WHY is that unreasonable? Firstly, we've seen super healing potions before--Elan got healed to full health by one back in one of the early comics. Secondly, Jirix was high-ranking enough to be hobnobbing with Xykon and Redcloak, which implies he's a bit more than your average run-of-the-mill goblin and might well have a few decent potions about his person.

To be honest, the only thing I find a little hard to believe about the whole situation is that V apparently knew the potions were there, and one could suppose he just checked without having a plan B for what would happen if Jirix didn't have any healing on him...

Well I didn't say impossible. But the improbabilities keep piling up in this scene and it's hurting my suspension of disbelief. Though I guess one could say that 10% is a small chance, but a million to 1 chance is a sure thing, so this scene development might be a good thing LOL
Jirix didn't seem that important or powerful to have so much healing in potion form and my main complaint isn't that O didn't drop, I'm mostly bothered by V who didn't seem to drink any potions. I guess one could say that V drank some off-panel or that he wasn't that hurt to begin with (the rock stunned him only), but that keeps pushing and pushing the probabilities.
I guess my main problem with the strip is that Rich could have used a better story element to allow them to escape Xykon's spells for that one round. It's disappointment on my part really.

[Ridureyu]

You know what really hurts my suspension of disbelief?

Nobody has noses.

[Wolf_Plague]

You know what really hurts my suspension of disbelief?

Nobody has noses.

Very funny.
I guess when the next conflict will be solved by a god, descended via some lifting mechanism you will call it "A great twist!".

Whatever.

Since Xykon is seen talking(demanding surrender) even after he casts MS it could be possible for him to miss deliberately, just trying to scare V and O. Also he seems to fire it in the direction of the hole they are running to, so meteors could just fly outside, without going off in the room.

[raphfrk]

Since Xykon is seen talking(demanding surrender) even after he casts MS it could be possible for him to miss deliberately, just trying to scare V and O.

So, he is planning a repeat of the throne room scene, i.e. let them almost destroy the phylactery and paralyse them at the last minute?

[Pronounceable]

Nobody has noses.

Boots not being equal sized has destroyed my suspension of disbelief from strip#1.

I guess when the next conflict will be solved by a god, descended via some lifting mechanism you will call it "A great twist!".

Yes.

[Rotipher]

Nobody has noses.

Not true! Not true at all! Xykon has a nose! It's right there, between his eyes and above his mouth!


{Kicks back to watch the nitpickers fight it out over the semantic quibble of whether or not a hole counts as a "nose"}

[Freelance Henchman]

Hm, I was just wondering if the Cloister effect will play havoc with Redcloak's Word of Recall since it's not an Epic Teleport. As in, he might get redirected somewhere else or other shenanigans happen.

[Selene]

By the rules of drama, the potions we saw them drink were Potions of Doing Enough Healing to Survive the Next Attack.

That was great.

Yep. Remember, this isn't just some abandoned booty from a 1st-level goblin hoard; it's the personal equipment of a very high-ranking officer in a very-well organized army of many thousands.

It's not at all implausible to think such an officer would keep potions sufficient to fully heal himself or Redcloak, who we know from 652 likes to take defensive precautions. It's a bit of backstory we'll probably never know, but wouldn't it be ironic if V took unknowing advantage of Redcloak's wise precaution to bring O-Chul back online?

Very true. Also, Redcloak specifically told Jirix to go looking for additional invaders. If there *were* additional invaders, wouldn't it make perfect sense to grab a bunch of particularly strong healing potions? They just fought super-splice-elf. If additional invaders were even half that good, he would have been well and truly screwed.

I find it kind of... depressing that some people's enjoyment of the comic is so dependent on absolute adherence to D&D rules. Remember that person who got all upset about the forcecage thing? Rich told him that he really doesn't care what the rules have to say about it; in OotS, it works the way he says it does. If that kind of thing sincerely upsets people, perhaps those people would be happier reading something else.

You know what really hurts my suspension of disbelief?

Nobody has noses.

They really wanted noses, too. (See third comic down.)

[Kaytara]

Hm, I was just wondering if the Cloister effect will play havoc with Redcloak's Word of Recall since it's not an Epic Teleport. As in, he might get redirected somewhere else or other shenanigans happen.

Nope, we were specifically told that the Cloister only affects incoming spells, not outgoing ones.