OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

[Wolf_Plague]

So, he is planning a repeat of the throne room scene, i.e. let them almost destroy the phylactery and paralyse them at the last minute?

Well, you should ask him personally if you want to be sure, but Xykon looks pretty confident in his powers and "stopping timer at 00:05" could be a nice way to humiliate some paladins and elves who think they gonna be the heroes of the day.
You know, Zorg-style...

Spoiler

Show

Yes.

Thanks for reminding me how awesome that strip was.

[Kaytara]

You know, regarding V's non-crushed windpipe, I'm inclined to think that Xykon wasn't really trying to kill him yet, either. I mean, you can't inflict lovecraftian, unimaginable sorts of pain on someone whom you've already killed.

Now notice how you say "perfect consistency" and "sometimes". You are admitting there is a sacrifice, a loss, and that the more it happens, the worse for the story.

By that logic, then we shouldn't burn wood to keep warm because there is a loss when we sacrifice wood to get fire.

A sacrifice need not be a bad thing, especially when it's less in the sense of "loss" and more in the sense of "trade" or "investment".

[Wolf_Plague]

By that logic, then we shouldn't burn wood to keep warm because there is a loss when we sacrifice wood to get fire.

That's wrong analogy. It implies that any inner logic in story is as expendable as it can get.
There is a line between "burning for warm" and "widespread fire".

Stephen King once said(quote is not accurate), that you can make reader believe in character blowing up whole Europe with a bomb no bigger than orange, but you will never be able to make reader believe that he took it out from safe by guessing 12-digit combination on 3rd try.
I'm ok with liches, magic and walking dead, but not ok with messed probabilities.

[The Pilgrim]

Very true. Also, Redcloak specifically told Jirix to go looking for additional invaders. If there *were* additional invaders, wouldn't it make perfect sense to grab a bunch of particularly strong healing potions? They just fought super-splice-elf. If additional invaders were even half that good, he would have been well and truly screwed.

I don't see the point in a hobbo carying a potion.

As we have seen in the comic, hobbos either die with one strike, or do not bother to heal their damage. Jirix didn't bothered to drink one of his potions or use a spell to cure his wounds from the battle with the spliced elf, even altrough he had been send to look for more invaders.

So, carrying potions would only serve one purpose: Allow attackers to take them and heal their damage after slaining you. That is, exactly, what happened.

[Dr. Cthulwho]

Slavish attention may not pay off, but knowledge of D&D rules definitely improves appreciation of this strip.

One could say that with the number of references to other stories, TV, comics etc that knowledge of them improves appreciation but isn't vital for it. Many non-DnD players read the strip and manage to appreciate it without extensive rules knowledge.

Something for everyone as it were.

So yes, the author is running a D&D simulation [and like most simulations, there are differences from the original, but it is still a simulation].

Or has built a narrative, a world, on a D&D foundation, but doesn't let it restrict the art of story telling.

Personally I don't imagine the Giant sitting there before every strip rolling dice to see whether his latest strip would work in pure D&D rule terms, whether it should be possible for X and Y to happen.

D&D gives us a much greater understanding about what is going on here.

Or maybe, and this is crazy, the story gives us the necessary understanding about what is going on.

When we refer to D&D rules, we are referring to our understanding of what is happening in the strip.

Again why not go by what the story is actually telling us? O-Chul grabbed the phylactery and V, and by some miracle manged to avoid getting smashed by Xykon's Meteor Shower.

One doesn't need to know D&D rules to know what is going on in this strip. It only becomes a problem if one says "But my understanding is that it shouldn't work because...", except it did in this setting and story.

And that means that each deviation from the rules carries an automatic black mark against it.

Only if one lets the fact the rule book isn't being used as the story bible every step of the way prevent enjoyment.

That mark can be overcome, sometimes easily, but it still exists and it is up to the deviation to justify itself.

How can this deviation justify itself? Have Xykon say he shouldn't have wasted time researching Xykon's "Marginally Less Lethal Meteor Swarm"?

Is it so important it even needs to be justified? Personally I think not, since it doesn't present a problem in my reading or understanding of the comic.

This is correct only in the short range and small numbers. The more we develop "facts" about how a world operates, the more such a claim jars and destroys our suspension of disbelief. When the Starfury moves fast, then slow, and then a completely different speed without obvious reason, we have problems.

We have a sufficient number of OotS-verse Meteor Swarms to be able to statistically say for certain what just happened jars up the facts of how we know this world operates?

Maybe the fact it happened in the story indicates it can happen in this world?

Now notice how you say "perfect consistency" and "sometimes". You are admitting there is a sacrifice, a loss, and that the more it happens, the worse for the story.

I see it the other way - nothing is sacrificed, there is no loss, if occasionally a spell fails to stop the heroes dead even though it normally would. I've known a GM who at important moments will fudge a roll so a player doesn't bite it in a way that will ruin the story and RPing going on.

And I rarely see a player in such a situation whine that their suspension of disbelief has been ruined in the current session because they aren't a greasy stain on the floor (or whatever). More likely they'll thank the dice gods, call it a miracle and play on. If it's done well nobody notices because the story is powering ahead and people are enjoying themselves.

Again with the quibble which reverses the meaning. He is following the rulebook, sometimes quite closely, and routinely usefully in understanding the story.

Where does the Giant say exactly that? And why aren't we understanding the story in the sense it is a story?

The D&D rules are an important aspect of the whole, like a skeleton, but they are far from the defining feature, which would be the narrative that is built on top of it and is what we actual see and interact with.

[Pronounceable]

As we have seen in the comic, hobbos either die with one strike, or do not bother to heal their damage. Jirix didn't bothered to drink one of his potions or use a spell to cure his wounds from the battle with the spliced elf, even altrough he had been send to look for more invaders.

Most goblins died in one hit as well. That won't happen to Redcloak, and no reason why Jirix can't be high level as well. WBL doesn't apply to NPCs, like, ever (especially with RC and X pumping out items). Not quaffing the Potion of Enough Healing to Survive the Next Attack, or PoEHtStNA (I love this name), can be chalked up to Jirix not expecting to get attacked that soon. A mistake that's acceptable for a non adventurer.

Even if not, NPCs carrying stuff for the benfit of PCs who'll defeat them is a time honored practice of DnD.

[Shatteredtower]

Perhaps a little perspective might help. If you're going to a community of fans of a comic you care enough about to comment on, but instead of engaging in lively discussion of theories and shared enthusiasm, you're spewing anger and frustration, and on top of that, doing line-by-line dissection of other people's posts in a seething rage, you are doing it wrong.

By that line of reasoning, if you're regularly dedicating posts to calling people out for doing such things, you're doing it wrong. Such posts are the opposite of helpful. The most constructive thing would be to not add more clutter -- assuming, that is, you view such posts as clutter. Those who don't are just going to ignore you anyway.

Of course, if your idea of fun is telling people they're posting incorrectly, knock yourself out.

My problem doesn't have to do with D&D mechanics, but with bad storytelling.

I admit some confusion, since you argue that it's bad storytelling based on how the mechanics play out.

It's like when a character is put in a fridge and a nuclear bomb explodes near him, he's blasted miles away and into the air and crashes on the ground and then miraculously gets out with out most of the bones in his body broken.

The reason I have no issue with that example is because it's from a movie series based on old adventure serials from the early 20th century. No matter how much it borrows from later sources, it's still going to play some things the way the old shows would, especially when it comes to trivializing the effects of explosive forces, nuclear or otherwise.

Sometimes, you just have to know what rules are being followed, eh?

It doesn't matter that I know Meteor Swarm is 9th level or 5th. As a reader I know it's a powerful spell (not a weak one) and Xykon is a powerful caster and V and O are already near death (a couple of times) and it's unreasonable that the poor goblin that died had "super" potions or something.

I've already mentioned that super potions weren't necessary, though we've seen precedent for that, as was noted by another poster. It can be covered by facts covered in the strips already:

1) Potions can duplicate variable spell effects, from healing (shown here, and it's worth noting that Roy refers to "healing" potions, rather than potions of Cure Light/Moderate/Serious Wounds) to Mage Armor and Heroism (strip #135).

2) We don't know what potions Jirix was carrying, or which were used. It's a safe bet that there were some "healing" ones in the mix, but we can't be certain they were all of the same type.

3) Jirix spent time around someone capable of casting Meteor Swarm -- and with a known disregard for the safety of nearby minions. Carrying potions that offer some protection against fire are a reasonable precaution for him to take. (Healing potions are also something of a given, though the more economically minded prefer wands in the long run.)

4) Xykon has been busy working on magic items. While there's no proof that he's been working on potions or is able to do so, we can't rule out the possibility that he'd be willing to create a few that offer protection to the more useful resources (his clerics) against one of his higher damage spells.

5) Protection from Energy is a 3rd level spell that absorbs no less than 60 hp of a specific type of energy damage before it expires. Most people prefer Protection from Energy, as it absorbs 10, 20, or 30 points of energy damage per source, depending on the caster's level. Either spell would be useful to Jirix for reasons mentioned above, so the possibility of him carrying them in potion form is not implausible. Either spell effect increases the likelihood of surviving a Meteor Swarm enough to make what we saw in this strip believable, especially if Xykon decided to forego the impact damage. (Why he'd do that is another matter, but survival was plausible in either case.)

There. I have established one way in which the pair could have survived Xykon's spell by the rules. I'm not saying that's how it played out, but it's enough to know that it could have been covered that way. (I'm still partial to the phylactery offering O-Chul and the wizard he's carrying as an "attended item" protection, simply because it's an appropriately silly mangling of the rules.)

I'm content with them surviving even if no such protection had been involved because the alternatives were: a) Xykon doing nothing, b) Xykon casting a less flashy save-or-die spell that didn't work, and c) the death of O-Chul and V. None of those are very satisfying, but I'm more than content to assume that Meteor Swarm did x damage against injured targets that have x+y hp remaining.

[rewinn]

I don't see the point in a hobbo carying a potion.

As we have seen in the comic, hobbos either die with one strike, or do not bother to heal their damage. Jirix didn't bothered to drink one of his potions or use a spell to cure his wounds from the battle with the spliced elf, even altrough he had been send to look for more invaders.

So, carrying potions would only serve one purpose: Allow attackers to take them and heal their damage after slaining you. That is, exactly, what happened.

At the very least, Jirix could be carrying Ultimate Heal Potion as Redcloak's donkey. Redcloak has been Wounded Unto Death before (in 462) and it's in his nature to learn from mistakes. He's evil but not stupid.

That Jirix chose to obey Redcloak's orders instead of healing himself may have been an error in hindsight, but from his POV obeying orders is always top priority.

[jere7my]

Stephen King once said(quote is not accurate), that you can make reader believe in character blowing up whole Europe with a bomb no bigger than orange, but you will never be able to make reader believe that he took it out from safe by guessing 12-digit combination on 3rd try.
I'm ok with liches, magic and walking dead, but not ok with messed probabilities.

But you only think the probabilities are messed up because you're trying to apply D&D rules to the situation. You're saying "Potions can only do X, and Meteor Swarm does Y, so it's improbable that Z happened." In terms of the comic, we saw them drink three potions between them, and then we saw them survive a powerful spell. King, if I may put words in his mouth, would have no problem with that — we saw the setup that earned the payoff. Only when you start looking up how many hit points a potion can cure is your belief strained — which is why I think there's not much point to doing so. The potions did enough, because we saw them do enough.

[rewinn]

While we're on the subject of suspension of disbelief, I wish to object to the illogical action of the Demon Cockroach in 654. Surely even a cockroach would know better to stand too close to an enraged high-level paladin who's holding a weapon. Remember kids: "Scuttle BEFORE you scream!"

I hope we can discuss this very important point for several pages.

[abishur]

We're really nitpicking over why a goblin had some nice heal potions on him? I mean come on, everyone here as played so RPGs before. Every enemy drops money and sometimes a random item. V is a seasoned adventure, he knows that the goblin probably has something useful on him. And considering the fact that they kinda know there's this whole resistance movement thing going on where people jump out of nowhere and start attacking, is it really that hard to believe that someone just might keeps a couple potions on them at all times?

As for the metor swarm issue. O-chu took a full one to the face and barely flenched. He got bit by a shark while swiming in a vat of acid and had some hit points to spare. These didn't have to be some uber heal potions here, they just have to be good enough to get him awake. He's freakin amazing, him dodging the metor swarm is totally within bound of what we know about his character.

Even still I don't see why you're complaing if it was a super potion, how many games have a potions whose description is along the lines of "restores all HP of one member of the party"? Besides he's a high ranking offical. Do you really expect me to believe that a high level character is really going to be carrying around a low level healing item? Do YOU carry around low level healling items at high levels?

And V living through the swarm? It's kinda important to note that s/he's wasn't in danger of dying. S/he definately lost a majoy portion of them when s/he lost the splice, but look at the way s/he is moving around while invisiable. That doesn't strike me as someone at death's door limping around. That's someone who has gotten beat up and is withdrawing because the battle just became unwinable. Getting (partially) hit by the metor swarm (something that, to my knowledge, has yet to directly kill a sinlge character in this strip. Even Roy died from the fall, but was still alive after taking a full hit) is within the realm of reason based off what Rich has shown us about the power of the metor swarm.

[Shatteredtower]

In terms of the comic, we saw them drink three potions between them, and then we saw them survive a powerful spell.

It's also worth noting that the number of potions shown is not necessarily relevant either. It can mean, "Three potions were consumed," or "Several potions were consumed." The action may matter more than the number, especially if the number is shown to be greater than one.

[allenw]

You know what really hurts my suspension of disbelief?

Nobody has noses.

How do they smell?

[abishur]

How do they smell?

a wizard must have done it

lol, or we could always say that they smell because the plot demands they must

[jere7my]

Slavish attention may not pay off, but knowledge of D&D rules definitely improves appreciation of this strip.

I quite agree.

This is correct only in the short range and small numbers. The more we develop "facts" about how a world operates, the more such a claim jars and destroys our suspension of disbelief. When the Starfury moves fast, then slow, and then a completely different speed without obvious reason, we have problems.

Sure. And if we'd seen these particular potions before this strip, I would agree. But these were (at least) three unnamed potions of unknown effect, so they are free to do enough healing to survive the next plot problem.

Again with the quibble which reverses the meaning. He is following the rulebook, sometimes quite closely, and routinely usefully in understanding the story.

Sure. But he is not bound by the rulebook, and is free to, for instance, introduce potions that do a little more healing than they "should" be able to. Quibbling over exactly what D&D potions they must have been, and complaining that a strip makes no sense because those potions don't exist in D&D, seems to me exactly the sort of thing that Rich was talking about in the FAQ, and in his occasional comments here. He tells us, flat out, that he will sometimes ignore the details of the D&D rules to tell a good story, that that is his intent, and yet the forums are still full of people saying "This comic doesn't make sense because rules rules splatbook rules."

[rewinn]

How do they smell?

Xykon smells ... badly!

[Darzil]

No plot problem at all, actually. The energy needed is actually quite trivial, as long as you've got a handy matter/antimatter reactor on at all times to power your warp drive. e=mc^2, and that equation like any other works both ways. It only takes the mutual annihilation of the exact mass of whatever is desired to be created by the replicators. The matter is converted to energy in the reactor, then back to matter at the point of replication. Add a trivial amount of matter for any inefficiencies in the system and you're done.

So a replicator achieves pretty much the same thing as just having food on board, except that it needs a way of storing anti-matter safely, rather than food safely? (Assuming that both replicator and reactor are 100% efficient with no losses between them either) Wierd design. Still, I recall from trying devise a Sci Fi gaming system that obeyed most physical laws that the energies for some things get crazy.

On the matters of strict adherance to rules, I tried GMing / playing AD&D (2nd Ed) and many other rpgs, many years ago, and eventually determined that for me, at any rate, story (the player/GM story, not just GM story) trumps rules there too. I ended up running rpgs with dice and no system, as that allowed some chance, but few rules to get in the way of the story/plot/players.

Darzil

[Shatteredtower]

Sure. But he is not bound by the rulebook, and is free to, for instance, introduce potions that do a little more healing than they "should" be able to.

Precedent for such tweaking appears in strips such as Getting Closer (Strip #89). That one featured a downgrade, but that doesn't indicate a trend working in only one direction.

[Wolf_Plague]

But you only think the probabilities are messed up because you're trying to apply D&D rules to the situation. You're saying "Potions can only do X, and Meteor Swarm does Y, so it's improbable that Z happened."

I'm not a D&D player and I'm not a specialist in rules.
I never said anything about potions or any calculations. I only mentioned, that something like one hurt and one badly hurt guy surviving what looks like a portable MLRS needed some explanation beside "luck/unluck". Also I provided one, which fits Xykon character pretty well.
Also in 4th panel they look like they have been hit by spell which threw them to sides. And then we got 5th panel, when they are fine - looks like that sequence is causing a lot of confusion.

In terms of the comic, we saw them drink three potions between them, and then we saw them survive a powerful spell. King, if I may put words in his mouth, would have no problem with that — we saw the setup that earned the payoff. Only when you start looking up how many hit points a potion can cure is your belief strained — which is why I think there's not much point to doing so. The potions did enough, because we saw them do enough.

I have nothing against hobgoblin general carrying powerful potions.

My complaint is about one specific elf with non-heroic constitution, who took a shipload of damage and then was brutally darth-vadered to near death only to fully restore his functionality in a couple of strips without any potions. Add this to my previous point above and you get a lot of regarding this comic.

[Kaytara]

That's wrong analogy. It implies that any inner logic in story is as expendable as it can get.

You think wood is expendable? XD

There is a line between "burning for warm" and "widespread fire".

Stephen King once said(quote is not accurate), that you can make reader believe in character blowing up whole Europe with a bomb no bigger than orange, but you will never be able to make reader believe that he took it out from safe by guessing 12-digit combination on 3rd try.
I'm ok with liches, magic and walking dead, but not ok with messed probabilities.

I wasn't really going for an analogy. But David's original point sounded like he was saying that a sacrifice is always a bad thing. I made a counter-example of a sacrifice not necessarily being bad. It often is, but this is one of those cases where, if we sacrifice something within limits, we may gain more than what we gave up.

Incidentally, did anyone complain about Shojo's "Apparently not everyone agrees with your analysis" line? Characters in negative hitpoints and on the brink of death should be unable to speak, if I recall correctly, though it's quite possible that I don't...

But the point stands. The DnD rules are supposed to be a framework for this story, not a straitjacket. Rich isn't telling a story to show how well he can stick to the rules, he's using the rules to make telling the story easier. In cases where they get in the way, they may be bent, broken or ignored. And finally, Rich reserves the right to houserule any and every rule as he sees fit. It really makes no sense to complain that the game doesn't follow OUR rules when it was never supposed to in the first place. If Meteor Swarm has no huge area effect in OotS-verse, fine. If Xykon intentionally missed them because he wants to keep the prisoners alive for torture, even better, because that actually makes sense from the story and character perspective. (You mentioned it earlier, too, I'm aware. :) )

[RPGAgmJAY]

LOVE XYKON. There is just something about Liches and Artifical Intelligence (basically, the Sci-Fi version of a lich) that really gets my attention.

Something interesting about phylacteries... they're crafted by hyper intelligent creatures (liches), who will go to great lengths to defend them. The best defense isn't magic at all but subterfuge. I postulate the following:

The amulet is not XYKON's phylactery. That's why he let's redcloak walk around with it. Very likely, it is something he wants destroyed, but doesn't have the capability of doing himself. I would venture a guess that the amulet is actually one of the "gates" that was enchanted so that only a "lawful good person can destroy..." you see where this is going?

Why else would a vastly powerful being allow PCs to live through constant encounters with it's awesomeness?

Hopefully, Xykon will be dining on roast raven in the next strip... paired with a glass of elven "blood wine", while enjoying the lovely conversation (read: screams of torture) of O'chul the thrice cursed.

Just my 2 copper pieces worth...

-Jason

[deworde]

Of course, it remains unclear how V can possibly be out of fly spells... we have not seen him cast Fly since he got his awesome powers, which leaves 2 options available:
1) V was using his pre-existing flight spell from the island, or
2) V has since cast a new one off screen.
In the first scenario, V should still have fly because his slots were replenished. It makes no sense he'd have used his own fly spell if he had to use it again, because his fly spell is so inferior to the spliced characters fly spells (they could do overland flight for instance), and would be very prone to the ABD or Xykon dispelling it. So even if V had only a single fly spell prepped, V should still have it. But hey, it'd be less dramatic.

How do you think he was flying here? http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0635.html

[TheRiov]

The amulet is not XYKON's phylactery. That's why he let's redcloak walk around with it. Very likely, it is something he wants destroyed, but doesn't have the capability of doing himself. I would venture a guess that the amulet is actually one of the "gates" that was enchanted so that only a "lawful good person can destroy..." you see where this is going?

its already been established that it is his Phylactery.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0147.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0148.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html - one assumes that Soon can certainly determine what is what (any scrying he would do would be with "Epic Inside")

[motub]

Also in 4th panel they look like they have been hit by spell which threw them to sides. And then we got 5th panel, when they are fine - looks like that sequence is causing a lot of confusion.

Yes, clearly-- because

a) they were not hit by the actual meteors at all... neither visibly, in that the meteors are seen to impact neither O-Chul nor V, nor "after the fact", since every time previously that O-Chul has been hit by such a fire-based spell, he was smoking afterwards, and no smoke is visble rising off his body, or V's, in panel 5. Therefore, the meteors did not hit.

b) O-Chul was running (on the ground) in panel 2, carrying V by hir collar. V is more or less flat on hir back, with hir legs and feet stretched out behind hir (O-Chul is strong, and he's running really fast, and he's got... Momentum ). In panel 4, V is falling towards the ground (O-Chul let go of/dropped hir), and O-Chul is rising through the air (jumping, i.e. using Evasion, or possibly Jump skill, which we know he has as we've seen him use acrobatic abilities before). This is then supports and is supported by 1) the meteors not visibly hitting either of them (because neither of them was where the meteors had been aimed-- V was lower (flat on the ground because O-Chul dropped hir), and O-Chul was higher (because he was doing his acrobatics thang), and 2) the fact that they are both able to run normally in the next panel (if O-Chul had been knocked aside by one or more meteors, he would likely not have landed on his feet, running, and although V probably was a bit woozy for a second or two extra (having had the wind knocked out of hir when shi was suddenly dropped flat to the ground, on hir back, even, and plus it takes a couple more seconds to get up, turn around and start running from a prone position on your back than it takes to keep running from landing on your feet), shi was still able to respond immediately and run under hir own power almost as fast as O-Chul (as an Elf, shi's light on hir feet, and of course is in fear of hir life).

Neither of them is even shown being hit very seriously by the fire effect surrounding the meteors-- O'Chul has a hand in it, but you can't draw injuries on a stick hand, and V was behind it, so maybe hir eyebrows got singed, but that's no biggie in terms of making you unable to run the heck away. Not even worth rising smoke being drawn.

Honestly, if you're going to go over the strip with a fine-toothed comb, then at least look at what you're looking at-- Rich is very precise in his art (evidenced by just a few strips ago when people complained that Xykon must have taken damage from the backlash of the Superb Dispelling, but none was shown.... and Rich put it in).

If the meteors are not shown to hit the characters, and they are not shown to be burned, then the meteors didn't hit them, and they were not burned.

I am wondering though, where/when did V get that black eye? It's interesting; I don't think I've ever seen that particular representation of "painful but not really life-threatening" damage in the comic before; maybe Rich just decided to mix it up a bit, being tired of the eternal lines representing scratches and gouges.

[factotum]

So a replicator achieves pretty much the same thing as just having food on board, except that it needs a way of storing anti-matter safely, rather than food safely?

This is going way off topic, but I'm pretty sure I remember from one of the Star Trek Technical Manuals that the authors clearly realised how ludicrous that idea is and changed things so that you need "feedstock"--a chemical soup containing all the elements found in typical foodstuffs. What the replicator then does is transport appropriate quantities of this "feedstock" and puts it back together in the right order to produce food. Still working like a transporter but without the requirement to carry tons of anti-matter (over and above what the ship already requires for warp core fuel) around.

[Simanos]

I admit some confusion, since you argue that it's bad storytelling based on how the mechanics play out.

I specifically left mechanics out of my post and focused on realism. I used phrases like powerful spell, already near death and such.

[Wolf_Plague]

Honestly, if you're going to go over the strip with a fine-toothed comb,

What? I did quite the opposite - quick glanced through it and noticed, that heroes look better after MS then before.

If the meteors are not shown to hit the characters, and they are not shown to be burned, then the meteors didn't hit them, and they were not burned.

Yeah... Um... Your logic defeated me!

I am wondering though, where/when did V get that black eye? It's interesting; I don't think I've ever seen that particular representation of "painful but not really life-threatening" damage before; maybe Rich just decided to mix it up a bit, being tired of the eternal lines representing scratches and gouges.

#653
He face-attacked floor for massive cosmetic damage.

[Simanos]

Yeah... Um... Your logic defeated me!

Except he is basing his logic on Meteor Swarms doing no damage on a miss. Actually they still do a lot of damage. You only avoid 2d6 bludgeoning damage and still get 6d6 fire damage and get a hard reflex save for half that. Not to mention that Xykon would have to roll 1 on the d20 for each of the 4 meteors to miss.

[Shatteredtower]

I specifically left mechanics out of my post and focused on realism. I used phrases like powerful spell, already near death and such.

Thank you; that helps. Does it help you accept the scene now that you know that a potion duplicating the effects of a low level spell could easily allow a badly injured creature to survive the effects of such a high level spell?

I see I made a mistake in my earlier post. That second Protection from Energy should be Resist Energy (a 2nd level spell). Sorry about that. One reason the latter is preferred over the former comes into play against Meteor Swarm, which is among the reasons why Meteor Swarm is considered pretty weak for its level.

[One Skunk Todd]

O-Chul is strong, and he's running really fast

I've been wondering

Spoiler

Show

if one of the potions might have increased his speed and possibly his dodge or evasion abilities. He does seem to really be rolling, and that might explain why they have a moment to chat before X catches up to them.