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  1. - Top - End - #571
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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by One Skunk Todd View Post
    I've been wondering
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    if one of the potions might have increased his speed and possibly his dodge or evasion abilities. He does seem to really be rolling, and that might explain why they have a moment to chat before X catches up to them.
    I think they were both potions of healing, but ya, he does seem remarkable fast for a Fighter/Paladin.

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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    I don't see the point in a hobbo carying a potion.

    As we have seen in the comic, hobbos either die with one strike, or do not bother to heal their damage. Jirix didn't bothered to drink one of his potions or use a spell to cure his wounds from the battle with the spliced elf, even altrough he had been send to look for more invaders.

    So, carrying potions would only serve one purpose: Allow attackers to take them and heal their damage after slaining you. That is, exactly, what happened.
    Kind of already spoofed in #0024, though not exactly about potions. So, you may be on to something; Jirix having those potions in the first place might be a continuation of that same sort of joke about monsters and NPC's having loot solely for the PC's benefit.

    Though, then again, Jirix may have already drank a potion or healed himself off-panel, though it does leave the question as to why O-Chul took him down so easily. So maybe the joke about NPC's being too stupid to use their own items is a better explanation.

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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Military Man View Post
    I think they were both potions of healing, but ya, he does seem remarkable fast for a Fighter/Paladin.
    He had no armor on, that usually improves by 10ft. ...unless your a dwarf they're always slow

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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by jere7my View Post
    But you only think the probabilities are messed up because you're trying to apply D&D rules to the situation.
    Nope, not at all. The D&D rules merely add clarity to how weird the situation is. We can describe the scene without using D&D rules at all.
    V is badly damaged by spell X, and is then damaged some more, enough that one questions whether she is even still alive. He proves functional, tho obviously extremely hurt as Xykon badly damages O-Chul with the same spell. A second spell knocks O-Chul out.
    V now feeds him some potions that removes part, but only part of the damage. So now they are both badly damaged and hit by that same powerful spell that has always delivered boatloads of damage before, and they apparently aren't hurt a bit.
    This is simply the villain firing a full clip at point blank range at the hero and missing every time.

    Quote Originally Posted by jere7my View Post
    The potions did enough, because we saw them do enough.
    We never saw V drink a potion at all [and he remains as damaged as ever], and we saw them do only a partial cure, not enough to save O-Chul.

    Quote Originally Posted by motub
    a) they were not hit by the actual meteors at all...
    See 653, where V is obviously missed by the meteors, and takes a lot of damage. Being in the area of effect has been shown to be enough. We can give you this very unlikely point and we still have the basic case that the duo should be crispy critters.

    Quote Originally Posted by motub
    b) In panel 4, V is falling towards the ground (O-Chul let go of/dropped hir), and O-Chul is rising through the air (jumping, i.e. using Evasion,
    But we have had evasion pictured in the comic several times. The figure is shown outside the area of damage and clearly jumping. O-Chul looks he is being knocked over. So by the strip itself, O-Chul should be suffering damage here.

    Quote Originally Posted by motub
    Neither of them is even shown being hit very seriously by the fire effect surrounding the meteors--
    But that is precisely the sort of thing we are objecting to. By all the information we have, they should be taking damage, and they are not.

    Quote Originally Posted by motub
    Honestly, if you're going to go over the strip with a fine-toothed comb, then at least look at what you're looking at-- Rich is very precise in his art
    We are talking stick art. The word "precise" is wrong by definition. And our artist has made loads of mistakes, some corrected, some not. That may be a lot less than you or I would make, but that is not anything close to zero.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shatteredtower
    he is not bound by the rulebook, and is free to, for instance, introduce potions that do a little more healing than they "should" be able to.
    Precedent for such tweaking appears in strips such as Getting Closer (Strip #89). That one featured a downgrade, but that doesn't indicate a trend working in only one direction.
    However, notice that we are told we are using a special rule. We are not being asked to accept something on the theory that the writer might be using a different idea.

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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by David Argall View Post
    However, notice that we are told we are using a special rule. We are not being asked to accept something on the theory that the writer might be using a different idea.
    If a writer uses a "special rule" enough, as with Control Weather, Xykon's special version of Force Cage, the dismemberment of an eye of fear and flame to make it portable for Belkar, Shojo's version of the Mark of Justice, Pokeballs, and so on, will it really have to be mentioned every time a new one comes up?

    I say thee nay!

    Besides, I've already demonstrated a perfectly plausible, strictly by-the-rules (save where V is shown delivering two potions simultaneously to O-Chul, which gets a pass by virtue of being shown) means by which both of them could have survived the attack. Four attacks causing 6d6 hp of fire damage each are reduced to an average of 4 hp of damage by Resist Energy (fire) cast at 7th level of ability. As for the bludgeoning damage, maybe Xykon couldn't be bothered to make attack rolls, figuring the overkill a waste of effort on his part.

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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Good god!!!

    More complaining about the comic not being believable!!

    NEW FLASH! This just in!!

    ITS A COMIC!

    A FANTASY comic to boot.

    If its so damn unbelievable, stop reading it! Its quite simple! Just take a break, come back in a month or so, by then this arc will be over and you can find all new reasons to hate the comic! Geez!

    Besides, I think Rich puts stuff like this in on purpose, just to taste your tears.
    Last edited by Nevadie; 2009-06-04 at 03:10 PM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Shatteredtower View Post
    Thank you; that helps. Does it help you accept the scene now that you know that a potion duplicating the effects of a low level spell could easily allow a badly injured creature to survive the effects of such a high level spell?

    I see I made a mistake in my earlier post. That second Protection from Energy should be Resist Energy (a 2nd level spell). Sorry about that. One reason the latter is preferred over the former comes into play against Meteor Swarm, which is among the reasons why Meteor Swarm is considered pretty weak for its level.
    The main problem is V, since he didn't seem to drink any potions himself.
    Still it would have been better if there was some hint in comic. It's gotten a bit repetitive and unbelievable how many times in a row they are brought to the brink of death. I'm not saying it's bad, it's just mildly annoying. For all we know V might have drunk a strange potion too or whatever. I just think the strip was missing something. They seemed too near death not to die

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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    This reminds me of a movie I watched yesterday, 2012:Doomsday.

    Absolutely HORRIBLE movie, badly written, horribly acting, and horrible graphics.

    You know what I did? I stopped watching it and put on a different movie.

    Its THAT simple...
    ***DISCLAIMER***
    When I talk about a theory, belief, or any other way of thinking. This does not mean in any way that I believe in said theory, it also does not mean in any way that I am trying to make you believe it.

    I am simply bringing up it has a possible way to look at things. Because when a person decides what to believe, they should be aware of all sides of the subject. I don't care if you believe a giant pink rabbit created the universe, just be educated in making that decision.

  9. - Top - End - #579
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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    I actually have to agree with David Argall on this one. I still really like the comic, but right now it's confusing me. I'm hoping that it some of it might be cleared up next comic, but truthfully? I doubt it. I don't think that V or O-Chul should have survived that meteor swarm, but it doesn't bother me as much as V no longer choking. V's windpipe was crushed, and now she appears to be fine. What's going on there?

    Still love the comic, but this particular strip just bugs me.

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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Simanos View Post
    The main problem is V, since he didn't seem to drink any potions himself.
    True, though I look at it this way: if V can pour two potions at a time down O-Chul's throat, three wouldn't be a stretch either, suggesting that the empty bottle we see in the wizard's hand might not have been given to the paladin.

    There's no proof of that, of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by Simanos View Post
    It's gotten a bit repetitive and unbelievable how many times in a row they are brought to the brink of death. I'm not saying it's bad, it's just mildly annoying.
    I think it could have benefitted from tighter pacing, sure. One too many visits to the brink start to make the trip a lot less exciting in the long run.

    Quote Originally Posted by Logalmier View Post
    V's windpipe was crushed, and now she appears to be fine.
    I think you're only assuming that to be the case. The sound effect we see coincides with the slash marks across V's gut, which weren't there in previous panels.
    Last edited by Shatteredtower; 2009-06-04 at 03:36 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Nevadie View Post
    This reminds me of a movie I watched yesterday, 2012:Doomsday.

    Absolutely HORRIBLE movie, badly written, horribly acting, and horrible graphics.

    You know what I did? I stopped watching it and put on a different movie.

    Its THAT simple...
    So if the movie had an official forum and you happened to visit it all you'd see would be comments that the movie was great because those who thought it sucked would not post at all.
    And we're not talking about something so extreme anyway. We're talking about a mild annoyance at one small part of a movie. When you discuss the movie in a forum it is going to get mentioned along with all the good stuff about it.
    So no, your line of reasoning doesn't have much merit. You basically just told a bunch of people to shod off. Why are people so ill equipped to handle challenges to their world-views? Oh yeah, the human condition. Never mind then...

    BTW I think V's windpipe was not crushed. Xykon started doing it, but didn't get to finish it all the way. That's what you get for doing things slowly
    Last edited by Simanos; 2009-06-04 at 03:42 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by David Argall View Post
    Nope, not at all. The D&D rules merely add clarity to how weird the situation is. We can describe the scene without using D&D rules at all.
    V is badly damaged by spell X, and is then damaged some more, enough that one questions whether she is even still alive. He proves functional, tho obviously extremely hurt as Xykon badly damages O-Chul with the same spell. A second spell knocks O-Chul out.
    V now feeds him some potions that removes part, but only part of the damage. So now they are both badly damaged and hit by that same powerful spell that has always delivered boatloads of damage before, and they apparently aren't hurt a bit.
    This is simply the villain firing a full clip at point blank range at the hero and missing every time.
    Perhaps one of those potions was the protection from energy so many have guessed at. That would have absorbed all of the damage. And V could have been protected by a couple readied move actions, with the trigger "I feel like it." It would clear the radius by 20ft even if we go with the normal DnD radius. Hmm... looks like almost no damage. In fact 28 average. Less than the average healed.

    On the crushed windpipe. Really? Lets chalk it up to DnD silliness and HP totals. Or Rich's ignorence from watching too many movies.
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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Logalmier View Post
    I don't think that V or O-Chul should have survived that meteor swarm, but it doesn't bother me as much as V no longer choking. V's windpipe was crushed, and now she appears to be fine. What's going on there?
    The explanation I prefer is... Xykon has already made it clear that he wanted both of them to remain alive to see all the unimaginable ways he can hurt them. Ergo, he wasn't trying to hit with that Meteor Swarm (supported by the fact that he was making O-Chul an offer at the time) and he wasn't trying to crush V's windpipe merely seconds after threatening him with all kinds of pain.

    Although, granted, the fact that it took O-Chul some impressive acrobatics and elf-tossing to escape the Meteor Swarm damage is a slight flaw in that idea... But I think the explanation is as good as any, anyway.
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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaytara View Post

    Although, granted, the fact that it took O-Chul some impressive acrobatics and elf-tossing to escape the Meteor Swarm damage is a slight flaw in that idea... But I think the explanation is as good as any, anyway.
    Well, if he wasn't gonna dance around for Xykon, he didn't deserve to dodge it.

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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaytara View Post
    Although, granted, the fact that it took O-Chul some impressive acrobatics and elf-tossing to escape the Meteor Swarm damage is a slight flaw in that idea... But I think the explanation is as good as any, anyway.
    If someone threw burning balls of fire in your general direction, you'd try to dodge out of the way too.
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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Lamech View Post
    On the crushed windpipe. Really? Lets chalk it up to DnD silliness and HP totals. Or Rich's ignorence from watching too many movies.
    A "crushed" windpipe needn't stay crushed, provided the hyoid bone isn't broken. Most of the trachea is held open by cartilage, which is rather elastic, rather than brittle bone. Nor does the larynx need to be crushed to render someone unable to talk, as stopping airflow also prevents speech.

    Unlike those of living, meaty hands, Xykon's skeletal fingers are pencil-thin: he could easily have squeezed V's neck without snapping the hyoid or damaging vir larynx. It's not as if he were an assassin, with professional expertise at the best way of strangling people; he just grabbed vir neck too low.
    Last edited by Rotipher; 2009-06-04 at 05:32 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaytara View Post
    Although, granted, the fact that it took O-Chul some impressive acrobatics and elf-tossing to escape the Meteor Swarm damage is a slight flaw in that idea... But I think the explanation is as good as any, anyway.
    ... and, since O-Chul tossed hir (meaning that shi didn't "dodge" under hir own power at all, but at his choice of speed and direction), doesn't that effectively make V "covered" (sheltered) by O-Chul's Reflex save, rather than hir own (in the same way that the phylactery might have been an "attended object", as it were)?

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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Simanos View Post
    The main problem is V, since he didn't seem to drink any potions himself.
    We don't know if ve drank one or not. V's already got an empty potion bottle in vir off hand, in the panel where ve's pouring one into O-Chul's mouth. We didn't see if ve fed that one to the paladin also, or chugged it virself.

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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaytara View Post
    The explanation I prefer is... Xykon has already made it clear that he wanted both of them to remain alive to see all the unimaginable ways he can hurt them. Ergo, he wasn't trying to hit with that Meteor Swarm (supported by the fact that he was making O-Chul an offer at the time) and he wasn't trying to crush V's windpipe merely seconds after threatening him with all kinds of pain.
    Xykon might've taken a grip that would kill V slowly rather than quickly, but it's pretty clear he wants vir to die. O-Chul's the one he intends to torture some more, but even so, I doubt he'd be pulling punches while the phylactery is still at risk.


    Although, granted, the fact that it took O-Chul some impressive acrobatics and elf-tossing to escape the Meteor Swarm damage is a slight flaw in that idea...
    Hey, maybe O-Chul took a few levels in Devoted Defender back in the 3E era, and his defensive tactics were grandfathered in when Stickverse went 3.5? If so, the paladin could've used Harm's Way to absorb a Meteor aimed at V, while hurling vir to the outer corner of the AoE, thus letting the elf suffer only 6d6 (3d6 with a save) hp of fire damage. Assuming V had some hp left over after the rock-bash and passed vir Con checks while being strangled, ve could potentially endure that much.

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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Wow! I sure hope Blackwing doesn't start getting all "not-gonna-do-stuff for you..." It would take some kinda loyalty to fly up next to that rift, knowing the Snarl's propensity for grabbing/killing stuff that comes too close. Given the evidence we have of the strength of the master/servant bond between these two, I don't think Blackwing's going for it. By the way, isn't Blackwing a great name for a familiar? just the sort of thing I'd come up with when I realized that my just-made cool-elf-wizard character sheet doesn't actually have one; it does a magnificent job of evoking that sort of last minute I-don't-give-a-**** feeling you get with familiars.
    Last edited by Mr. Pin; 2009-06-04 at 06:19 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rotipher View Post
    A "crushed" windpipe needn't stay crushed, provided the hyoid bone isn't broken.
    Thanks Rotipher, I was trying to remember what that bone was called and hadn't gotten around to looking it up yet.
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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by David Argall View Post
    However, notice that we are told we are using a special rule. We are not being asked to accept something on the theory that the writer might be using a different idea.
    Indeed. To see the author saying that, you need to check the FAQ.

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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Surviving a meteor swarm is less annoying to me than being asked to believe V didn't prep fly (after being asked/told to believe he got to instantly select his spells from memory off panel, before laughing like a maniac). V is in such a hurry he doesn't want to wait 10 minutes for Roy to come back, forsaking the chance to show off to his team mates... he clearly has a good idea the splice is running out... but we are asked (under this new retrofit explanation) to believe that a guy with a minimum of 8 lvl 3 spell slots (remember, he has a ring of wizardry), didn't prep fly with any of them, knowing the splice was running out v.soon. I guess he needed some extra attack spells, given how logical it is that they'd be useful if the 3 splices failed him against the dragon...
    Last edited by JeptCloak; 2009-06-04 at 07:45 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Hey David and Jept, you know what? I'm convinced, you are absolutely right. What's happened in these comics recently could not have possibly happened - it's all a horrible sham. My suspension of disbelief is shattered, and I can no longer read on. I cannot believe how naive I was before. O what a terrible story. Thanks for showing me the light.

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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Jept actually makes some good arguments. He just has really low tolerance for plot holes concerning V.

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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by spargel View Post
    Jept actually makes some good arguments. He just has really low tolerance for plot holes concerning V.
    Agreed. I for one find it more annoying that some people immediately yell at Jept without examining his argument, than the fact that Jept points out all the plot holes.

    I just don't understand the argument that V swapped out his spells for new ones at the moment of the splice. I mean, when would this have happened? Even if the energies from the splice allowed V to speed up the process, it should have taken conscious thought at least, right?

    Plot holes don't ruin my enjoyment of the strip, but denying they exist doesn't do any good.
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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JeptCloak View Post
    he clearly has a good idea the splice is running out...
    Quote Originally Posted by JeptCloak View Post
    knowing the splice was running out v.soon.
    The splice had a time limit?
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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JeptCloak View Post
    Surviving a meteor swarm is less annoying to me than being asked to believe V didn't prep fly (after being asked/told to believe he got to instantly select his spells from memory off panel, before laughing like a maniac). V is in such a hurry he doesn't want to wait 10 minutes for Roy to come back, forsaking the chance to show off to his team mates... he clearly has a good idea the splice is running out... but we are asked (under this new retrofit explanation) to believe that a guy with a minimum of 8 lvl 3 spell slots (remember, he has a ring of wizardry), didn't prep fly with any of them, knowing the splice was running out v.soon. I guess he needed some extra attack spells, given how logical it is that they'd be useful if the 3 splices failed him against the dragon...
    This is all correct, but this is also the very point of the story line

    V is being stupid, he's being arrogant, bull headed, and an all around jerk. He’s completely assured of his own magical supremacy that he never considers that ultimate arcane power does not mean undefeatable. When did he forget to bring a fly spell? It looks to me like he’s been flying the whole time from the moment the soul splice went into action. (Remember Rich has a tendency for having characters use up specific spell off screen for the sake of allowing a specific plot point to be plausible.)

    edit: I just checked again and V never did cast fly (meaning one of the casters had it naturally?) which only furthers my point in the fact that V was being overly arrogant in the assurance of arcane power, which is the whole point of this arc

    Jept has hit the nail squarely on the head. It defies all common logic to do it, but that is PRECISELY why it had to happen. This is a V character development arc. That means that V’s dogged pursuit of the arcane, which has been going on since the end of the Azure battle, had to be completely shattered. V put his total faith in the arcane and it bit his butt hard.

    #658 is showing how V can succeed, despite all odds, when his mind begins to explore options outside the arcane. He goes out on a limb and searches the lieutenant and finds the potions (which, again, is completely within the realm of reason when you consider the fact that they are constantly having to worry about the resistance attacking randomly, for a high ranking official to be NOT be carrying some kind of healing object, be is potion, scroll, or otherwise, makes no sense). He saves O-chu and O-chu rescues him from choking to death and from taking full damage (or perhaps any damage) from the meteor swarm (which I would like to point out has killed zero people in all the times Xy has cast it over this comic).
    This all makes perfect and logical sense based on the rules of the universe Rich has created as well as what we know about the individual people themselves.
    Last edited by abishur; 2009-06-04 at 08:57 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by One Skunk Todd View Post
    The splice had a time limit?
    Building on this, is the slice still in effect even though the souls are no longer there? Technically V didn't end it, and knowing demons this seems to be something they would jump all over in terms of technicalities.
    Last edited by Twin2; 2009-06-04 at 08:55 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Shatteredtower View Post
    If a writer uses a "special rule" enough, as with Control Weather, Xykon's special version of Force Cage, the dismemberment of an eye of fear and flame to make it portable for Belkar, Shojo's version of the Mark of Justice, Pokeballs, and so on, will it really have to be mentioned every time a new one comes up?
    Let's see, in 3 of the 5 cases, it was mentioned, and the Pokeballs are pretty much plot neutral. So the answer seems to be yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shatteredtower View Post
    Besides, I've already demonstrated a perfectly plausible, strictly by-the-rules (save where V is shown delivering two potions simultaneously to O-Chul, which gets a pass by virtue of being shown) means by which both of them could have survived the attack. Four attacks causing 6d6 hp of fire damage each are reduced to an average of 4 hp of damage by Resist Energy (fire) cast at 7th level of ability.
    Potions are routinely created at the minimum level, 3rd in this case, and we do not see V drinking any potions at all. Then we have that neither resist nor protection allow you to choose when damage is suffered. So we have about a 4/5 chance the potion is useless. In essence, this is plausible only in the sense it is plausible that Xykon rolled 4 one's to hit. It may be physically possible, but it is so bloody unlikely it is not at all plausible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shatteredtower View Post
    As for the bludgeoning damage, maybe Xykon couldn't be bothered to make attack rolls, figuring the overkill a waste of effort on his part.
    That is called really reaching. If it was worth the bother of a ninth level spell, it was worth the trouble of aiming.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaytara
    Xykon has already made it clear that he wanted both of them to remain alive to see all the unimaginable ways he can hurt them. Ergo, he wasn't trying to hit with that Meteor Swarm
    While we don't have anything like a full list of Xykon's spells, he surely has better capture spells than something so likely to kill them outright.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaytara
    (supported by the fact that he was making O-Chul an offer at the time)
    letting you keep two of your organs, even if we take the most favorable reading, still amounts to saying "I'll let you select how you are to painfully die."

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaytara
    Although, granted, the fact that it took O-Chul some impressive acrobatics and elf-tossing to escape the Meteor Swarm damage is a slight flaw in that idea...
    Look at that picture. O-Chul is not jumping or dodging. And he was not tossing V anywhere. In essence he was at ground zero of the explosion and was flung away, dropping V in the process. There is no sign that either is out of the area of effect.

    Quote Originally Posted by motub
    ... and, since O-Chul tossed hir (meaning that shi didn't "dodge" under hir own power at all, but at his choice of speed and direction), doesn't that effectively make V "covered" (sheltered) by O-Chul's Reflex save, rather than hir own (in the same way that the phylactery might have been an "attended object", as it were)?
    Leaving aside the rules problems, and the physical problems of heaving 100 lbs of elf any distance at all, we have no reason to think O-Chul has a higher reflex save than V.

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