OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

[Duaneyo1]

X will save his phylactery by blasting blackwing. This will give V and O'Chul a chance to escape. Also, I bet V has a feather fall or a polymorph to get them out of this pickle.

[Silverain]

Wow, V is still on his feet? He's tougher than I thought.

[Porthos]

If you want to believe that Rich wrote the story intending the replenishing to mean "you will be able to look over your spells and pick which ones you want then replenish them" (all offpanel, followed by V madly laughing), then fine, but let's not suggest it's the sensible reading as opposed to you reaching for answers.

Err... It's always what I thought happened. Right from when the strip in question was posted.

<joke>
Does that mean I'm not sensible?
</joke>

So, at least for me, I ain't reaching for nothin'.

[Llelldorin]

If you want to believe that Rich wrote the story intending the replenishing to mean "you will be able to look over your spells and pick which ones you want then replenish them" (all offpanel, followed by V madly laughing), then fine, but let's not suggest it's the sensible reading as opposed to you reaching for answers. Ironically the same people making this suggestion are the ones who scoffed at the idea that V necessarily knew what spells the splices had, which means we are to believe V had time to go over and pick which spells he wanted in that instant of splicing, but was unable to look over the spell list the splices had. Ridiculous.

It'd be more natural to suggest that the replenishment didn't survive the end of the splice. The replenishment was "due to the rejuvenating effects of the splice," which could translate in comic terms into "while you look like a black-robed badass." In fact, the replenishment itself might be akin to a "spell with an ongoing duration," which would end when the splice does.

[Daen]

Irony of power -

Four words: "Blackwing, destroy the phylactery!"

[The MunchKING]

It'd be more natural to suggest that the replenishment didn't survive the end of the splice. The replenishment was "due to the rejuvenating effects of the splice," which could translate in comic terms into "while you look like a black-robed badass." In fact, the replenishment itself might be akin to a "spell with an ongoing duration," which would end when the splice does.

That's suprisingly plausable...

[Jamie]

X will save his phylactery by blasting blackwing. This will give V and O'Chul a chance to escape. Also, I bet V has a feather fall or a polymorph to get them out of this pickle.

Not a bad thoguht actually, O'Chul destroys the Phyalactery, throwing something into the snarl with that much magic attached to it would probably cause some kind of light show on impact, everyone gets distracted, V and O'Chul jump down with V using Feather Fall on them both.

[Firelock_ny]

Did anyone see blackwing coming? If so, they didn't say anything.

*Raises hand* back in #656.

[Kornaki]

Irony of power -

Four words: "Blackwing, destroy the phylactery!"

As long as we're willing to accept that the reason V orders this is to prove at the end that it's the wizard who got the job done, I think we've got ourselves a theory here

[theboredone]

Well im not sure but couldnt they get blackwing to fly out with the necklace (Cant spell phlactry or whatever.) out to the pit and drop it in?

[Forealms]

Treacherous avian!

[KyrtFurey]

Yeh, I'm quite clear on him having lost his flight spell (the one in use), it's just he got his slots replenished, which under any sensible reading means he should now be ablt to cast it again. It's not complicated.

No...you're just assuming that when his slots got refreshed, he chose to fiull them up with the same spells. Furthermore, you are assuming he didn't cast any such spell off camera.

You are, in fact, just choosing an explanation - and not even a likely explanantion - that fits in with your idea of how things should have gone down (If I cast Soul Splice, it'll simply refresh the days spells as if they'd never been cast) instead of how it appears to be (When I cast Soul Splice, it'll rejuvenate me as if I'd spent an entire night rested and so allow me to immediately imprint the magical matrices as if I'd studied....).

EJL

[Deuce]

I'm kind of thinking:

Spoiler

Show

Blackwing takes the phylactery and hovers over the rift for a stand-off. The only potion for Xykon that keeps him from doing something that may well seal his doom is to kill O-Chul. Kill V or Blackwing, and the phylactery drops into the rift.

Not really sure how to end the stand-off though. Resistance attack? Ala James Bond fight toward the end when many nameless commandos die?

[JeptCloak]

That's suprisingly plausable...

But not the way most people would read it, hence- plot hole.

[Milskidasith]

I'd like to point out something I've noticed people saying. People are acting like dropping Xykon's Phylactery in the rift would kill him. As far as I am aware, Xykon's soul is only confined in the Phylactery when his body has been destroyed. While it would be a tremendous loss for him to lose his Phylactery, it will not instantly kill him.

[Forbiddenwar]

*Raises hand* back in #656.

Sorry, apparently several people have called this ahead of time. I didn't see it.

[WarriorTribble]

Seems to me if the rejuvenating effects of the splice was a temporary thing, then this should've been highlighted with V regaining his semi-deranged/dead looks. While this little blip doesn't bother me too much, I do agree with JeptCloak, plot hole.

[Porthos]

But not the way most people would read it, hence- plot hole.

Serious question.

If it's such a big plot hole, why aren't more people complaining?

Sure you're going to have some people join you on your interpretation of events (as Warrior Tribble just chimed in). But scanning this thread it sure doesn't look like anything approaching a majority of readers.

Quite simply, neither you nor I know whether or not people (never mind "most" people) think this a plot hole. Or in fact, even considered the point when they read the strip.

All either of us can really say is this:

It didn't work for you (and you think it is a plot hole)
and
I did work for me (and I don't think it is a plot hole)

Sure you can explain why you think it is a plot hole, and I can explain why I think it isn't (I just think he didn't memorize a new fly spell, that's all). But when it comes right down to it, this is just another example of the famous phrase two equally intelligent people can look at the same set of facts, and come up with two different, and equally correct, conclusions.

Art is especially notorious for holding to this standard.

[Sijo]

O-Chul is smarter than he looks, he snatched the phylactery and V instead of attacking Kykon, ANd he figured out how to destroy it. Now THAT is an epic Paladin hero! Miko, if you ever get raised, you'd better learn from him!

Though destroying the Phylactery might not necessarily destroy Xykon. I can't remember the rules on that right now. It sounds too soon to do him in, anyway. Unless Redcloak takes over, which many of us would be glad to see. (Xykon is getting insufferable.)

"Roach killer!" Heh! I must admit the demon roaches are funny sometimes. Still, they're evil demons and I can't wait to see them all wiped out. (Or returned to the Abyss, I guess.)

I was surprised to see the raven familiar back. Will it help? Given how much it seemed to resent V, it's not certain.

In any case, it still seems that O-Chul and V are doomed, unless MitD finally breaks out and does- ANYTHING. Seriously, I'm tired of the box gig. Even the tea party was more fun. C'mon, MitD, go!!

[DougTheHead]

But not the way most people would read it, hence- plot hole.

It's the way I read it, too, and at least three other people before me. Maybe we're not the ones making the silly assumptions.

And you might want to check your definitions- I don't think "plot hole" is defined as "an alternative reading of a text."

Also, I'm not sure V's Flight spell lasts the ~30 minutes it's been since the pre-splice flight when fighting against the ABD.

[Twilight Jack]

The ones making drama out of it are you guys. I am simply pointing out yet another plot hole, and muttering about it.

Plot holes hurt suspension of disbelief, and mess up the story. I'd like them to be explained, or for the story to be written in a way that they aren't plot holes.

V was already flying when the ABD came along, hence already had a flight spell going. We've seen no fly spell since then, so the one in effect the whole time was V's assumedly. The splice "replenished" his spell slots, so by a sensible reading he should have his fly spell back, even if he had only prepared one.

Another entirely sensible reading is that, even if the replenishing of his spell slots included another fly or overland flight, that those extra replenished spells went the way of the dodo once the splice broke. Seems only fair that once you lose the whole splice, you lose any and all benefits that came with it.

[Milskidasith]

O-Chul is smarter than he looks, he snatch the phylactery and V instead of attacking Kykon, ANd he figured out how to destroy it. Now THAT is an epic Paladin hero! Miko, if you ever get raised, you'd better learn from him!

Though destroying the Phylactery might not necessarily destroy Xykon. I can't remember the rules on that right now. It sounds too soon to do him in, anyway. Unless Redcloak takes over, which many of us would be glad to see. (Xykon is getting insufferable.)

"Roach killer!" Heh! I must admit the demon roaches are funny sometimes. Still, they're evil demons and I can't wait to see them all wiped out. (Or returned to the Abyss, I guess.)

I was surprised to see the raven familiar back. Will it help? Given how much it seemed to resent V, it's not certain.

In any case, it still seems that O-Chul and V are doomed, unless MitD finally breaks out and does- ANYTHING. Seriously, I'm tired of the box gig. Even the tea party was more fun. C'mon, MitD, go!!

As far as I know, the rules state that Xykon's soul is in his body, and then "snaps" back to the phylactery when he is destroyed. The comic supports this; Xykon's Phylactery talks the one time he is destroyed (in the early strips, around 110, I think) is completely silent otherwise, even when Redcloak is nowhere near Xykon and being able to talk through the Phylactery would be useful (during the battle of Azure City, for example). So, if we assume Xykon's soul is "speaking" though the Phlactery, his soul has only ever been it when he didn't have a body.

[DSCrankshaw]

Blackwing! Like one of my familiars.

I love how Rich plays on the fact all PCs seem to forget their PC's familiar at some point or another. Even I as a DM sometimes do when the players don't remind me.

My character's probably an exception to this rule.

Spoiler

Show

I'm running a scholarly wizard who completely dumped Wisdom... he's pretty much the absent-minded professor type. What I realized, though, is that my owl familiar's smarter than the fighter and much wiser than my wizard. So while my wizard's forgetting to prepare useful spells for the day or busy counting the dragon's scales, his familiar's always there to remind him to prepare Unluck and getting him to pay attention to the fight, and that now might be a good time to actually cast Unluck, rather than Arcane Sight because he really wants to see if that interesting portrait in the dragon's hoard is magical.

But that neither's here nor there. I just hope Blackwing can do the job without getting eaten by the Snarl.

[KyrtFurey]

The ones making drama out of it are you guys. I am simply pointing out yet another plot hole, and muttering about it.

It's not a plot hole. You just think it is.

V was already flying when the ABD came along, hence already had a flight spell going. We've seen no fly spell since then, so the one in effect the whole time was V's assumedly.

Which is pure assumption. Boring events happen off camera. We don't need to see V cast Fly because it has no real impact on the story. Further, if V cast Overland Flight - he doesn't need more than 1.

No chance of losing after all.

And if the Flight spell was the sorcerors...he didn't need to devote any specific slot to it at all. If he needed it again, he'd just get the sorceror to cast it.

The splice "replenished" his spell slots, so by a sensible reading he should have his fly spell back, even if he had only prepared one.

Another assumption. You're assuming, yet again, that your understanding of the spell is correct even though it is a house rule.

Now, sure, you can invent ways around this, just like people tried to claim Xykon had an unseen rod of maximising, or that some unknown character who exited the story thereafter cast Xykon's invisibility.

None of these are relevant. They are mechanisms that will explain Xykons apparanet rise on power, are readily apparent to anyone even slightly familiar with the universe and are not relevant to the story arc at all. We don't need to see who cast invisibility because, ultimately, that's not important. We just need to know he is invisible.

It's just these explanations are lame, and if you need to invent bizarre explanations like this then it's probably not a very well executed story.

No...they are lame because Rich doesn't have the screen space to devote to every single spell cast, whether needed or not.

If you want to believe that Rich wrote the story intending the replenishing to mean "you will be able to look over your spells and pick which ones you want then replenish them" (all offpanel, followed by V madly laughing), then fine, but let's not suggest it's the sensible reading as opposed to you reaching for answers.

Magic, in some iterations of D&D anyway, works by having the mage imprint spell matrices upon himself. This is what his nightly study does....allows him to imprint the energy matrix of the spell. Using that model, it is not a wild leap to point out that the rejuvenation effect of the spell will perform the same function as sleep and allow V to imprint a new selection of spells.

EJL

[Wadoka]

"Kodai-san... prepare to fire the Wave Motion Gun!"

Blackwing won't do it for V. Blackwing will do it for O-Chul.

[Moff Chumley]

It's obvious in the extreme, but I LOVE how unpredictable The Giant can be...

I'm offering...
60% odds on MitD being being deboxed. (He's hinted strongly at it, and it's been about 600 strips. This joke is wearing quite thin.)
20% chance of Blackwing destroying the phylactery, then getting eaten by the Snarl, with V being completely indifferent (twould be funny, but a tad predictable.)
50% chance of V dying. (The jury's out.)
75% chance of O'Chul dying. (It seems INCREDIBLY obvious. I can't imagine The Giant resisting the temptation. I'd love it, but we'll see...)

[JeptCloak]

Seems to me if the rejuvenating effects of the splice was a temporary thing, then this should've been highlighted with V regaining his semi-deranged/dead looks. While this little blip doesn't bother me too much, I do agree with JeptCloak, plot hole.

See here...

[appending_doom]

I hope Xykon doesn't lose his phylactery now, that would be disappointing

Why would it be disappointing? Destroying a phylactery doesn't destroy a lich, it only makes him mortal again. It actually takes Xykon's plan, which was undertaken out of boredom, and gives him a more desperate, legitimate reason for pursuing it to the end.

It will take Xykon's half-hearted villainy and likely turn it up to 11, just because Xykon no longer has the "ace in the hole" of guaranteed resurrection, and so cannot afford to toy with his enemies.

But that's just how I'd read his motivations and likely consequences of the destruction of his phylactery.

And, of course, none of this takes into account the fact that

Spoiler

Show

The Plan is really Redcloak's and the Dark One's, and may survive Xykon's destruction, especially now that Redcloak is beginning to see some hope for goblin society becoming a reality.

Peace Out

[Milskidasith]

It's obvious in the extreme, but I LOVE how unpredictable The Giant can be...

I'm offering...
60% odds on MitD being being deboxed. (He's hinted strongly at it, and it's been about 600 strips. This joke is wearing quite thin.)
20% chance of Blackwing destroying the phylactery, then getting eaten by the Snarl, with V being completely indifferent (twould be funny, but a tad predictable.)
50% chance of V dying. (The jury's out.)
75% chance of O'Chul dying. (It seems INCREDIBLY obvious. I can't imagine The Giant resisting the temptation. I'd love it, but we'll see...)

So... no odds on Blackwing refusing, destroying the phylactery and not dying, or anything less specific? While all the other choices are cut and dry "it's either this, or it isn't this" options, the Blackwing bet is... well, a lot more specific (to fit in with the rest, it would have to be something like "Blackwing destroys the Phylactery.)

EDIT: I'm just saying, it's a 20% chance of that specific scenario, but no odds for which specific situation that isn't exactly the one you predicted.

[Porthos]

See here...

Strangely enuf, I agree with you. I doubt that ther rejuvination effects were temporary (though I could be pursuaded, given enuf evidence/arguments).

Good thing that my reading of the event doesn't rely on that in the slightest.