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  1. - Top - End - #211
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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JeptCloak View Post
    plot hole
    Look, you're an evocation wizard with access to a master of teleportation, a powerful necromancer, and an archmage-sorcerer combo whose specialty was being able to cast everything without needing to prepare it. The fiends specifically said the splice replenished spells slots not spells. This is in line with how the rules work for normal rest, meaning prepare new spells (even if you pick the same spells as the day before, you are still preparing new spells). There is absolutely no need what so ever for V to have prepared a single utility spell while spliced since Jephton can cover it all freeing Vs spell slots for Evocation spells for maximum power. Maximum. Power. This was Vs line of thinking, its consistent with everything we know and see. This "hole" only appears if you didn't catch what was written and/or don't know how socerers/wizards work.

  2. - Top - End - #212
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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Moff Chumley View Post
    It's obvious in the extreme, but I LOVE how unpredictable The Giant can be...

    I'm offering...
    60% odds on MitD being being deboxed. (He's hinted strongly at it, and it's been about 600 strips. This joke is wearing quite thin.)
    20% chance of Blackwing destroying the phylactery, then getting eaten by the Snarl, with V being completely indifferent (twould be funny, but a tad predictable.)
    50% chance of V dying. (The jury's out.)
    75% chance of O'Chul dying. (It seems INCREDIBLY obvious. I can't imagine The Giant resisting the temptation. I'd love it, but we'll see...)
    About the MitD...

    commentary spoilers from WaXPs:

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    Rich has said that he isn't going to reveal what the MitD is until near the end of the strip. So unless he lets the MitD out of the box, and we don't get to see what it is, I wouldn't exactly count on the MitD getting out anytime soon.
    Last edited by Porthos; 2009-06-01 at 10:54 PM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Milskidasith View Post
    As far as I know, the rules state that Xykon's soul is in his body, and then "snaps" back to the phylactery when he is destroyed. The comic supports this; Xykon's Phylactery talks the one time he is destroyed (in the early strips, around 110, I think) is completely silent otherwise, even when Redcloak is nowhere near Xykon and being able to talk through the Phylactery would be useful (during the battle of Azure City, for example). So, if we assume Xykon's soul is "speaking" though the Phlactery, his soul has only ever been it when he didn't have a body.
    I've always wondered if that is meant to be up to the DM to decide or not. I suspect that the D&D designers expected that the players would have to defeat the lich before seeking out it's phylactory. However, the rules do say that the phylactory contains the life force of the lich so could be assumed that the soul of the lich is always there and that the body is remote controlled from it.

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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by holywhippet View Post
    I've always wondered if that is meant to be up to the DM to decide or not. I suspect that the D&D designers expected that the players would have to defeat the lich before seeking out it's phylactory. However, the rules do say that the phylactory contains the life force of the lich so could be assumed that the soul of the lich is always there and that the body is remote controlled from it.
    It's fairly clear that, in this comic, his soul is in his body at all times. While I can't guarantee it (only The Giant can), the circumstantial evidence (his soul speaking from his Phylactery only when he lost his body despite the fact it would be really useful in other situations his body was alive) seems to point towards the Phylactery being a new resting place for his soul after his body is crushed.

  5. - Top - End - #215
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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by holywhippet View Post
    I've always wondered if that is meant to be up to the DM to decide or not. I suspect that the D&D designers expected that the players would have to defeat the lich before seeking out it's phylactory. However, the rules do say that the phylactory contains the life force of the lich so could be assumed that the soul of the lich is always there and that the body is remote controlled from it.
    It might be up to the DM, yes. However in this case...

    Start of Darkness spoilers:

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    Xykon states that his soul isn't in the phylactery when it is threatened at one point. It is still up in the air whether or not Xykon could make a new one. But it would appear that Xykon wouldn't be acting the way he is if he could make a new one so easily.

    Thus when the phylactery goes away, Xykon is just one bad day away from Final Death.
    Last edited by Porthos; 2009-06-01 at 10:58 PM.
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  6. - Top - End - #216
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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JeptCloak View Post
    The ones making drama out of it are you guys. I am simply pointing out yet another plot hole, and muttering about it.

    Plot holes hurt suspension of disbelief, and mess up the story. I'd like them to be explained, or for the story to be written in a way that they aren't plot holes.

    V was already flying when the ABD came along, hence already had a flight spell going. We've seen no fly spell since then, so the one in effect the whole time was V's assumedly. The splice "replenished" his spell slots, so by a sensible reading he should have his fly spell back, even if he had only prepared one.

    Now, sure, you can invent ways around this, just like people tried to claim Xykon had an unseen rod of maximising, or that some unknown character who exited the story thereafter cast Xykon's invisibility. It's just these explanations are lame, and if you need to invent bizarre explanations like this then it's probably not a very well executed story.

    If you want to believe that Rich wrote the story intending the replenishing to mean "you will be able to look over your spells and pick which ones you want then replenish them" (all offpanel, followed by V madly laughing), then fine, but let's not suggest it's the sensible reading as opposed to you reaching for answers. Ironically the same people making this suggestion are the ones who scoffed at the idea that V necessarily knew what spells the splices had, which means we are to believe V had time to go over and pick which spells he wanted in that instant of splicing, but was unable to look over the spell list the splices had. Ridiculous.

    I can guess what you mean by "a spell that may or may not have been disjunction", but do you really want to go there?
    You sat in the theater and screamed that Star Trek sucked because warp drives are impossible, didn't you?

    Here's the explanation: The rules, while very similar to D&D 3.5 edition, aren't completely the same. We in fact know this is the case, as we have seen other differences before (you are also labeling these "plot holes"). Except, if there is a difference between how you say they work, and how the author says things work, guess who wins?

    SCRUBBED.

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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Man, that whole "sound in space" thing really made it hard for me to enjoy Star Wars.

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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Wow, what a bunch of crying over a web comic! Don't you folks get it? Enjoy the story, take it with a grain of sand, laugh a little, and move on!

    The way some of you argue about minute details like they are a matter of life or death make you sound as pathetic as they made some Star Trek fans sound when Shatner was on SNL.

    "What was the combination of the safe in episode <blah blah blah>?"

    Seriously, does every single detail have to be dissected so much? Were any of the legs on the roaches too short? Did the MitD have one too many yellow pixels for eyes? Were the wound marks on V just a hair shorter from one frame to the next, with no explanation? ARGH!

    I used to really enjoy some of the good points folks would make about cute facets I may have missed, or references I may not have gotten. I've enjoyed many a spoiler. But this constant nit-picking over supposed flaws that some readers just can't let go of gets to be too much.

  9. - Top - End - #219
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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JeptCloak View Post
    See here...
    V looked completely different while under the effects of the soul splice. When it ended, he looked exactly like he had before it was started. That makes sense, does it not?

  10. - Top - End - #220
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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Final panel was epic. I literally lol'ed.

    I have been thinking for a while that Xykon's phylactery might get thrown into the Snarl. Never predicted Blackwing though. lol

    Oooo. I just thought of something...

    Spoiler
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    What if the Snarl is able to get control of Xykon's soul after destroying the phylactery and use it to control Xykon? That would be pretty insane.

    Edit: Oh, I guess this is unlikely since others have pointed out that Xykon's soul stays out of the phylactery except when his body is destroyed. But that gives me another idea: what if the Snarl holds onto the phylactery instead of destroying it, and next time Xykon bites the dust, he gets regenerated next to the Snarl and it takes control of him. Still pretty unlikely I guess, but it would be pretty crazy.
    Last edited by fruityjanitor; 2009-06-01 at 11:08 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #221
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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Porthos View Post
    It might be up to the DM, yes. However in this case...

    Start of Darkness spoilers:

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    Xykon states that his soul isn't in the phylactery when it is threatened at one point. It is still up in the air whether or not Xykon could make a new one. But it would appear that Xykon wouldn't be acting the way he is if he could make a new one so easily.

    Thus when the phylactery goes away, Xykon is just one bad day away from Final Death.
    Even if it is possible to make a new Phylactery (rulebooks disagree) it still takes a week of work and a large amount of gold, not to mention the time spent putting abjurations on it to protect it. Though considering they captured a huge city and he has the biggest army for a few hundred miles and a cloister effect up, it's unlikely he would be killed while working on the Phylactery; scry and die wouldn't exactly work again (and by "work" I mean "teleport in and start attacking" and not "teleport in and successfully defeat Xykon" because we know how that turned out) since nobody has epic teleports at this point.

  12. - Top - End - #222
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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Lowkey View Post
    You sat in the theater and screamed that Star Trek sucked because warp drives are impossible, didn't you?

    Here's the explanation: The rules, while very similar to D&D 3.5 edition, aren't completely the same. We in fact know this is the case, as we have seen other differences before (you are also labeling these "plot holes"). Except, if there is a difference between how you say they work, and how the author says things work, guess who wins?

    You are wrong about how things work. You are arrogant in declaring you know the story better than the author. Your temper tantrum about it is annoying. There is no plot hole. Now be quiet.
    Yes, it is a plot hole, and no I don't watch Lame Trek.

    You don't rise to the level of an annoyance for me as it happens, but feel free to keep trying.

  13. - Top - End - #223
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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Alteran View Post
    V looked completely different while under the effects of the soul splice. When it ended, he looked exactly like he had before it was started. That makes sense, does it not?
    No, because V no longer had the haggered lack of sleep, he was normal until Xykon dropped a rock on him giving him bruises.

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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JeptCloak View Post
    If you want to believe that Rich wrote the story intending the replenishing to mean "you will be able to look over your spells and pick which ones you want then replenish them" (all offpanel, followed by V madly laughing), then fine, but let's not suggest it's the sensible reading as opposed to you reaching for answers. Ironically the same people making this suggestion are the ones who scoffed at the idea that V necessarily knew what spells the splices had, which means we are to believe V had time to go over and pick which spells he wanted in that instant of splicing, but was unable to look over the spell list the splices had. Ridiculous.
    This makes no sense. A blank spell slot is a blank spell slot, they don't "remember" what spells you had in them before. You can't claim that he would have had to "look over his spells" to get new ones because, logically, he still would have had to do that to get his previous set of spells. The splice magically filled up all of his slots, there's nothing in the rules that says anything about this because this simply doesn't exist otherwise. If the splice can replenish his previously prepared spells, spells he already has written down in his spell book, then the splice can just as easily replenish ANY OTHER spell he has written down in his spell book.

    The splice obviously removed the "sitting down and study your book" requirement of replenishing spells. However, I have confidence that V knows what his spells do well enough without having to study his spell book for hours. He could easily decide to fill his spell slots with spells he's sure will be useful without spending an hour thinking about it.

    There's no plot hole. You're being upset for the sake of being upset.

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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by KyrtFurey View Post
    It's not a plot hole. You just think it is.
    The existence of rationales does not mean a story is without plot holes. With that mindset then things like the Star Wars and the Star Trek series would have perfect consistency, and the die-hard fans themselves would admit this isn't so. Even one of the more popular plot holes; how did people know about Rosebud in Citizen Kane when the guy died alone, has a perfectly reasonable rationale; the man had a nurse so he might've been medically monitored or even recorded.

    For now V should have a flight spell since that's what the Fiends promised. Maybe later Rich will explain why V is magically depleted (perhaps the loss of the splices drained V's mental fortitude?) then assuming the explanation makes sense this won't be a plot hole, but for now I'm afraid it is. If it'll appease anyone though, I do believe it's a minor one.
    Last edited by WarriorTribble; 2009-06-01 at 11:22 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    I'm not sure what's more amusing. JeptCloak's ire over Rich Burlew's comic, or everyone else's ire over JeptCloak.

    The real plot hole we should be looking into is, where did that tower COME from?

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    cool Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    The way that I read the Monster Manual ("a magic phylactery in which the character stores its life force.") has always meant: destroy said phylactery, no more lich. So what if he said his soul wasn't there? That could easily be a lie.
    Last edited by Ghostwheel; 2009-06-01 at 11:20 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Prediction:
    Blackwing succeeds in dropping the phylactery into the rift, Xykon kills O-chul, soul binds him, animates his corpse, then subdues the fleet and has O-Chul's zombie slaughter countless azurites while his soul watches.

    Xykon also does more or less the same for V
    Last edited by Zombie Nixon; 2009-06-01 at 11:26 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by WarriorTribble View Post
    For now V should have a flight spell since that's what the Fiends promised.
    "The rejuvinating effects of the Soul Splice will allow you to start with all spell slots fully replenished."

    That's what was promised, I can't speak for others, but I read that as the effect being like V sitting down to prepare all h** new spells. Maybe it does just restore the spells V previously had, but there's no evidence either way. If it is the first way, then it's well within V's character to not think h** ongoing flight spell would be dispelled.
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  20. - Top - End - #230
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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostwheel View Post
    The way that I read the Monster Manual ("a magic phylactery in which the character stores its life force.") has always meant: destroy said phylactery, no more lich. So what if he said his soul wasn't there? That could easily be a lie.
    SoD Spoilers:

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    Redcloak buys Xykon's logic. And between the two of them, they really should know.
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  21. - Top - End - #231
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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostwheel View Post
    The way that I read the Monster Manual ("a magic phylactery in which the character stores its life force.") has always meant: destroy said phylactery, no more lich. So what if he said his soul wasn't there? That could easily be a lie.
    The fact that his soul has been there only when his body was destroyed means nothing to you? The fact that (in branch books) there are rules about making a new Phylactery is also a bit of a dent in your theory. (50k gp and a week of work, I think. Or it might have been 5k gp.)

    Face it, the only info we have here is that the game is homebrew and anything goes, and that Xykon has only ever had his soul speak through his phylactery when his body was totally destroyed. I'm placing my bets on "phylactery only hides his soul when his body is destroyed."
    Last edited by Milskidasith; 2009-06-01 at 11:31 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    I fear this may be the end for V ...

    At least Xykon was funny.

    What would your fellow paladins say if they saw you picking pockets to make ends meet? You know, if I hadn't murdered them.

    Last edited by FoE; 2009-06-01 at 11:30 PM.

  23. - Top - End - #233
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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    I always balk at 'creating black holes.' They're not all that mysterious. We know they can't be spontaneously created any more than ice cream sundaes can be spontaneously created.

    The difference here is that the source material is also fiction, and thus it's not a huge deal if the details get muddled.

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    confused Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Ok, I didn't want to wade thru 8 pages, so if someone bought this up already, I apoligize in advance, but if V sends hir familiar into the rift, won't that damage V? Losing a familiar results in permanent loss of con and Hp if I remember correctly.
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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by DBear View Post
    Ok, I didn't want to wade thru 8 pages, so if someone bought this up already, I apoligize in advance, but if V sends hir familiar into the rift, won't that damage V? Losing a familiar results in permanent loss of con and Hp if I remember correctly.
    It really doesn't matter if V is about to die.

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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    It would seem that Rich's logic is you have to destroy the Lich and the Phylactery. Which makes sense to me and it is an area that is up for DM interpretation.

    The next thing is that it is already established that the Phylactery doesn't hold Xykon unless his body is destroyed first.

    In an earlier thread it was figured out that it would take about 4 months to rebuild the Phylactery and cost an enormous amount of money. From the way Xykon is acting - peeved but not frantic - he probably can rebuild it, but he may not have the money right now and he certainly doesn't want to have his soul's hidey hole taken away, making him vulnerable to permanent death by the next lot of heroes who decide to jump him, maybe tomorrow or next Friday.


    O-Chul is under the idea that destroying the Phylactery will destroy Xykon, not just inconvenience him.


    So, who is correct? I think we'll find out in the next two or three pages.

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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Teatime View Post
    The real plot hole we should be looking into is, where did that tower COME from?
    It's always been there.

    Seems Xykon grew it after Cloister.
    Last edited by wzeller; 2009-06-01 at 11:39 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by garylian View Post
    Wow, what a bunch of crying over a web comic! Don't you folks get it? Enjoy the story, take it with a grain of sand, laugh a little, and move on!

    The way some of you argue about minute details like they are a matter of life or death make you sound as pathetic as they made some Star Trek fans sound when Shatner was on SNL.

    "What was the combination of the safe in episode <blah blah blah>?"

    Seriously, does every single detail have to be dissected so much? Were any of the legs on the roaches too short? Did the MitD have one too many yellow pixels for eyes? Were the wound marks on V just a hair shorter from one frame to the next, with no explanation? ARGH!

    I used to really enjoy some of the good points folks would make about cute facets I may have missed, or references I may not have gotten. I've enjoyed many a spoiler. But this constant nit-picking over supposed flaws that some readers just can't let go of gets to be too much.
    A valiant effort, my friend, but one that will fall on deaf ears. I try to do actual analysis all the time and it's just shouting in the darkness. But any rules question is met with swarms of responses. I agree that people should just enjoy the ride, but momentum is in the opposite direction here.

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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    I am guessing the Phyalctery will get destroyed...or lost (would I rule out V/Ochul dropping it and with a bit of Deus Ex Machina, it falls into the hand of Thanh or someone?)

    I can't see end of phylactery= end of Xykon. If anyone is going to kill Xykon, it would most likely be Roy, not V.

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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie View Post
    I am guessing the Phyalctery will get destroyed...or lost (would I rule out V/Ochul dropping it and with a bit of Deus Ex Machina, it falls into the hand of Thanh or someone?)

    I can't see end of phylactery= end of Xykon. If anyone is going to kill Xykon, it would most likely be Roy, not V.
    If the phylactery is destroyed, wouldn't that mean that Xykon basically has 'one more life'?

    Or would the destruction of the phylactery cause Xykon to be destroyed instantly?
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    They are just random numbers. There is no significance.

    Not everything in the comic has a hidden meaning.
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