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  1. - Top - End - #241
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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by doodthedud View Post
    If the phylactery is destroyed, wouldn't that mean that Xykon basically has 'one more life'?

    Or would the destruction of the phylactery cause Xykon to be destroyed instantly?
    Well, that's what the debate seems to be about. I mean, I don't know D&D very well at all, but from the viewpoint of someone who knows literature, it would make no sense to kill Xykon here and now- but in terms of plot progression, it does make sense for the phylactery to be destroyed and Xykon is now 'living on the edge'.

  2. - Top - End - #242
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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie View Post
    Well, that's what the debate seems to be about. I mean, I don't know D&D very well at all, but from the viewpoint of someone who knows literature, it would make no sense to kill Xykon here and now- but in terms of plot progression, it does make sense for the phylactery to be destroyed and Xykon is now 'living on the edge'.
    Ah, well my only D&D knowledge is from the game 'Neverwinter Nights' so all these teleport and flying and jumping spells are already beyond me....
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    They are just random numbers. There is no significance.

    Not everything in the comic has a hidden meaning.
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  3. - Top - End - #243
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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Werewindlefr View Post
    Power currently takes the form of a tiny-sized familiar.
    "Such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world: small hands (claws?) do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are elsewhere" - Tolkien

  4. - Top - End - #244
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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JeptCloak View Post
    No, because V no longer had the haggered lack of sleep, he was normal until Xykon dropped a rock on him giving him bruises.
    What exactly are you trying to accomplish with all your complaints? do you think you're helping Rich become a better writer and prevent more plot holes? (in my opinion theres none) because basically all you're becoming is an annoyance to most of the people here who actually enjoy this comic, seriously, if you don't like how the story develops, then please go watch something else you would like, you're taking a webcomic way too serious, and your comments are just making more and more people ignore you from now on.

    So, what's the point?

  5. - Top - End - #245
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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Possibly absurd alternate alternate theory--are magic-users automatically aware of what spells they have prepped? Is it possible that V has simply forgotten abut the spell slot refresh? Could this be a "Wait a minute, I had a 22" moment for V?

  6. - Top - End - #246
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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    fft fft fft fft fft fft fft fft fft...

    ~rawr...

  7. - Top - End - #247
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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0623.html

    On a lighter side, proof that V is no stranger to plotholes

  8. - Top - End - #248
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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Llelldorin View Post
    Possibly absurd alternate alternate theory--are magic-users automatically aware of what spells they have prepped? Is it possible that V has simply forgotten abut the spell slot refresh? Could this be a "Wait a minute, I had a 22" moment for V?
    based on what I know, No. V would certainly know what spells were available.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    They are just random numbers. There is no significance.

    Not everything in the comic has a hidden meaning.
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  9. - Top - End - #249
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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JeptCloak View Post
    But not the way most people would read it, hence- plot hole.
    Waaaiit a minute.
    What's wrong with taking V's word for it?

    If V says it, and it's not impossible or outlandishly improbable, why should we question it?

    Think of it this way. O-Chul and V just survived that last Meteor Storm that Xykon threw at them. Is this a plot hole? It would be if their surviving it was impossible or, again, outlandishly improbable. However, if we can come up with reasonable explanations... Xykon rolled low, they rolled high, the healing potions were more effective than we at first thought, etc., then it's not a plot hole. And the comic doesn't have to explain this! As long as there's some reasonable explanation for them surviving, then there's absolutely no reason for us not to accept the fact that they DID survive it, as evidence that one such reasonable explanation is in effect.

    It's necessary for the comic (or any of the people here) to come up with an irrefutable proof for the exact chain of events leading to V saying that she has no flight spells left. A single reasonable explanation—even a fairly unlikely one!—is quite sufficient.

    On the flip side, for all that JeptCloak is being chastised for being a reactionary, he's managed to debate this more calmly than most of the people who are attacking him.

    Well except for the Lame Trek crack.

    (<3 Star Trek)

  10. - Top - End - #250
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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Single_Lupus View Post
    ... Also, is Blackwing male or female?
    My vote is female.

    Snap.

    Xykon can't lose this easily. He has to live up to his BBEG/Recurring villain status. Being a combination of the two means he's got some serious plot armor - which he has apparently not relied on yet.

    Also he's the wittiest of all characters combined.
    Last edited by imp_fireball; 2009-06-01 at 11:49 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #251
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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Llelldorin View Post
    Possibly absurd alternate alternate theory--are magic-users automatically aware of what spells they have prepped? Is it possible that V has simply forgotten abut the spell slot refresh? Could this be a "Wait a minute, I had a 22" moment for V?
    It wouldn't be beyond V to forget thing- she's forgot Blackwing before...and this plot is all about the flaws in V as a person.

  12. - Top - End - #252
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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    This is certainly an interesting turn of events. I really hope that V's familiar will help out with O-chul's plan. Or that V has a Bull's Strength or Cat's Grace spell prepared. Both should help with that thrown object problem.
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  13. - Top - End - #253
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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie View Post
    It wouldn't be beyond V to forget thing- she's forgot Blackwing before...and this plot is all about the flaws in V as a person.
    This is one of "is it a game or reality" things. Even if V the wizard should know what spells are available, V's player might easily forget in the heat of the game that spells had been refreshed. (This is particularly true if the fairly intelligent V were being role-played by a less-intelligent player. It's hard to play an 18-INT character with a 13-INT brain )

  14. - Top - End - #254
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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by appending_doom View Post
    Destroying a phylactery doesn't destroy a lich, it only makes him mortal again. It actually takes Xykon's plan, which was undertaken out of boredom, and gives him a more desperate, legitimate reason for pursuing it to the end.

    It will take Xykon's half-hearted villainy and likely turn it up to 11, just because Xykon no longer has the "ace in the hole" of guaranteed resurrection, and so cannot afford to toy with his enemies...

    And, of course, none of this takes into account the fact that
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    The Plan is really Redcloak's and the Dark One's, and may survive Xykon's destruction, especially now that Redcloak is beginning to see some hope for goblin society becoming a reality.
    Rifting the phylactery neatly solves the problem that this story arc simply canNOT end with Xykon's destruction, yet SOMETHING has to happen to change the dynamics between the Heroes and the Big Bad (...otherwise, you don't have plot ... and OOTS knows plot!) Making Xykon suddenly vulnerable to the Real Death is especially significant after his explaining-motivation speech in the last 2 panels of 652.

    To take your analysis one step farther, Redcloak ...
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    ...has good reason to think Xykon won't go along with Redcloak's Ultimate Plan. Therefore, will the Order help Redcloak backstab Xykon at the key point?

    This would be an easier sell if the Order were somehow to appreciate the fundamental justice of Redcloak's plan to set up a goblin society, free from being mere XPs for humanoids. Establishing that growing realization would be a huge plot meta-arc. So far, O-Chul is the only member of the order to reach across racial lines (with MiTD).


    At any rate, unless the Giant has decided to call it quits by next Friday, Operation Rift Toss can be only a partial success ... still massively heroic of course.

  15. - Top - End - #255
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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Llelldorin View Post
    This is one of "is it a game or reality" things. Even if V the wizard should know what spells are available, V's player might easily forget in the heat of the game that spells had been refreshed. (This is particularly true if the fairly intelligent V were being role-played by a less-intelligent player. It's hard to play an 18-INT character with a 13-INT brain )
    I like this view on things.

    Haha, well...I think Rich might be trying to talk about D&D through this almost. The same way Miko was a represenation of ridiculous Paladins, V in this state could be that of people who play with high-level characters straight off, with no idea how to play them.

  16. - Top - End - #256
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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by DBear View Post
    Ok, I didn't want to wade thru 8 pages, so if someone bought this up already, I apoligize in advance, but if V sends hir familiar into the rift, won't that damage V? Losing a familiar results in permanent loss of con and Hp if I remember correctly.
    Near as I can see, the rift doesn't extend infinitely upwards. Blackwing could just fly above the rift and let the phylactery go. Problem solved.
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  17. - Top - End - #257
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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by RMS Oceanic View Post
    "The rejuvinating effects of the Soul Splice will allow you to start with all spell slots fully replenished."

    That's what was promised, I can't speak for others, but I read that as the effect being like V sitting down to prepare all h** new spells. Maybe it does just restore the spells V previously had, but there's no evidence either way. If it is the first way, then it's well within V's character to not think h** ongoing flight spell would be dispelled.
    For what you're saying to be true, we need a scene where V gets the splice, then sits around for an hour while perusing his spellbook. The splice was merely a torrent of energy with three souls attached that revitalized V. There's no indication that it also gave him the opportunity to somehow speed through an hour worth of study to prepare new spells.

  18. - Top - End - #258
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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by WarriorTribble View Post
    For what you're saying to be true, we need a scene where V gets the splice, then sits around for an hour while perusing his spellbook. The splice was merely a torrent of energy with three souls attached that revitalized V. There's no indication that it also gave him the opportunity to somehow speed through an hour worth of study to prepare new spells.
    As I said earlier, Advanced Time Stop explicitly breaks DnD rules (at least for anything short of the gods). So why couldn't Soul Splice break the "1 hour of study" rule?
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  19. - Top - End - #259
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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by WarriorTribble View Post
    For what you're saying to be true, we need a scene where V gets the splice, then sits around for an hour while perusing his spellbook. The splice was merely a torrent of energy with three souls attached that revitalized V. There's no indication that it also gave him the opportunity to somehow speed through an hour worth of study to prepare new spells.
    Yes, there is. The indication that you're looking for is V just said he was out of Fly spells. This is all the explanation that is needed for us to say, "Oh, I guess it didn't work that way."

    If the scene works with Explanation A but does not work with Explanation B, then guess what? Explanation A is valid until proven otherwise.

    All anyone needs to do is stop looking for an excuse to criticize the author's skill.

    EDIT: Plus, V was offscreen for some time between popping out from the Azure City fleet and Haley entering her room. He may have chosen to re-cast his Fly spell at that point for whatever reason. There are multiple possibilities, none of which are explicitly forbidden by the rules. Especially since the main effect, the Soul Splice, was invented by the author to act however he found convenient.
    Last edited by SPoD; 2009-06-02 at 12:16 AM.
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  20. - Top - End - #260
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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    The ironic thing is that if it wasn't being advanced only as part of an overall "Vaarsuvius was robbed of his/her rightful victory over everything" grudge, I would find "Vaarsuvius didn't take any time to study or even apparently think about which spells to prepare, so the splice probably gave him/her back the exact same spells s/he had prepared that morning" a very interesting and compelling point.

  21. - Top - End - #261
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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by garylian View Post
    Wow, what a bunch of crying over a web comic! Don't you folks get it? Enjoy the story, take it with a grain of sand, laugh a little, and move on!
    Do you enjoy every single pice of entertainment out there? You nver had reasons for not liking something only for others to think you're just being nitpicky or a killjoy? If the answer to either is no, then what right do you have for telling people to just shut up and like something?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    The ironic thing is that if it wasn't being advanced only as part of an overall "Vaarsuvius was robbed of his/her rightful victory over everything" grudge, I would find "Vaarsuvius didn't take any time to study or even apparently think about which spells to prepare, so the splice probably gave him/her back the exact same spells s/he had prepared that morning" a very interesting and compelling point.
    While V... wasn't himself these past few strips I like to think he still had enough foresight to prepare a flight spell while stuck on an island in the middle of nowhere (where a simple wave could kill him). I mean imo that's on par with a lich guarding his Phylatery.
    Last edited by WarriorTribble; 2009-06-02 at 12:13 AM.

  22. - Top - End - #262
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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    so...well Blackwing help with throwing the thingy or will he carry it? Actually...do we even know the gender of Blackwing? It's annoying enough to not know the gender of Vaarsuvius
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    cool Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Milskidasith View Post
    The fact that his soul has been there only when his body was destroyed means nothing to you? The fact that (in branch books) there are rules about making a new Phylactery is also a bit of a dent in your theory. (50k gp and a week of work, I think. Or it might have been 5k gp.)

    Face it, the only info we have here is that the game is homebrew and anything goes, and that Xykon has only ever had his soul speak through his phylactery when his body was totally destroyed. I'm placing my bets on "phylactery only hides his soul when his body is destroyed."
    Understood. I don't have any knowledge from those other books. I was just relating my experience with the game as I have played and ran it.

    While the Giant is showing a home brew world, we all have our own expectations and pre-conceptions about the rules that the world of OotS follows. I don't get bent out of shape if Rick's rules are different than mine. I just love the story that he is telling.

  24. - Top - End - #264
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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Destroying the phylactery would mean that Xykon is mortal and easily (relatively) destroyed until he can create a new one.

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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by [TS] Shadow View Post
    Holy Crap Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Blackwing Ftw!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Woo-hoo! Go Blackwing!!

  26. - Top - End - #266
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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    So the question becomes: What is the average airspeed of an unladen schrodinger's familiar?


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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by WarriorTribble View Post
    Do you enjoy every single pice of entertainment out there? You nver had reasons for not liking something only for others to think you're just being nitpicky or a killjoy?
    Generally speaking, when I don't like something in a work of fiction, I don't spend week after week ranting about it on a message board SCRUBBED.

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  28. - Top - End - #268
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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Angafirith View Post
    The kind of power doesn't matter as much as you'd think. Indeed.
    That level 1ability will freaking destroy a philarky...with attached soul....wow I wonder what that will do to Xykon?
    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
    If the players figure out and try to stop this from occuring, the wizard instantly crafts a HUGE mound of quarterstaves and clubs to obscure himself before teleporting out.

  29. - Top - End - #269
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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Aside from alertness, is there any possibility Blackwing grants accuracy or something like that?

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    Default Re: OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Llelldorin View Post
    It'd be more natural to suggest that the replenishment didn't survive the end of the splice. The replenishment was "due to the rejuvenating effects of the splice," which could translate in comic terms into "while you look like a black-robed badass." In fact, the replenishment itself might be akin to a "spell with an ongoing duration," which would end when the splice does.
    You know, that's how I've been automatically reading it this whole time. Why would the fiends have left their mark with any extra power after ze had stopped racking up soul-debt?

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