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    Default a casting version of the BAB

    I need some homebrew wisdom:

    I once read (some brainstorming thread somewhere) about a proposed "casting aptitude bonus" progression, much like the BAB. So casters get full progression (like fighters get full BAB progression) while melee types get slow progression (like a wizard's slow BAB progression). You need to take a casting class to make use of your CAB, but once you do, all your class levels contribute to your casting [theoretically]. [Edit in blue]Your CAB becomes your caster level, not to be exceeded by your character level. Your CAB becomes your casting class level for spell levels accessible or spell slots available within a specific class, not to be exceeded by your character level. This concept seems simple and useful to me, and I like the way it encourages multiclassing, but tricky questions emerge very quickly...

    Seeking opinions on:
    1. Either this should be a rule applying to all, or this should be a re-write of the Practised Spellcaster feat, so that it costs a feat to access. I lean toward feat.

    2. What should the various progressions be?
    Full CAB: 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8...
    Medium CAB: 0,1,2,3,3,4,5,5...
    Slow CAB: 0,1,1,2,2,3,3,4...
    Are Slow and Medium distinct enough?

    3. What classes should get what CAB?
    Starting point: All full casters should get full CAB. All classes with partial casting (Paladin, Ranger) and/or Use Magic Device should get medium CAB. All other classes should get slow CAB.
    All PrCs with spellcasting get full CAB. All PrCs without spellcasting but with spellcasting, spell-like abilities or UMD requirements get medium CAB. All other PrCs get slow CAB.

    Should spell-like abilities (like the monk's Abundent Step) count towards getting medium CAB? Should Paladins and Rangers get their casting at earlier levels according to this progression?

    4. What happens with multi-classing casting classes? Wiz/Sor? or Wiz/Sor/Rog? Rang/Dru? Any class's CAB should be dedicated to it's own spellcasting, or dedicated to a specific other class's spellcasting. For the Wiz/Sor/Rog, the player must choose (once, applying all current and future levels) whether the Rogue's CAB is dedicated to the Wizard progression or the Sorcerer progression.
    Last edited by Fitz10019; 2009-06-05 at 10:16 AM.

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    Default Re: a casting version of the BAB

    1) All or Nothing. This should be a radical change in the game, or it's not very useful.

    2) Make the CAB like BAB:
    • Fast Progression: CAB=1HD
    • Moderate Progression: CAB=¾HD
    • Slow Progression: CAB=½HD

    3) Here's my thoughts on the core classes; other classes & PrCs should be decided on a case-by-case basis, with certain guidelines (like PrCs that fit into the archetype of core classes use that class's CAB).
    • Fast Progression = Cleric/Druid/Sorcerer/Wizard
    • Moderate Progression = Bard/Paladin/Ranger
    • Slow Progression = Barbarian/Fighter/Monk/Rogue

    4) Add all fractional values from multiple classes, then round down to determine total CAB. Non-caster CAB bonuses count for a particular spell list, determined at each level gain. Caster CAB bonuses always count toward their respective spell list.
    Last edited by Zeta Kai; 2009-06-05 at 08:49 AM.

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    Default Re: a casting version of the BAB

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeta Kai View Post
    1) All or Nothing. This should be a radical change in the game, or it's not very useful.
    Very true.

    I assume you meant moderate as 3/4th and 1/2 as slow.. Nevermind me, you editted it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fitz
    Your CAB becomes your caster level, not to be exceeded by your character level.
    That basically makes it impossible to ever dispel someone else's spells without very good rolls.

    My thoughts: The variant is nice, but ultimately not very useful. Why? Because CAB in no way affects spell levels accessible or spell slots available. Essentially it's a replacement for caster level, which is just fine as is. However, if you change it to apply to both spell levels and spell slots available then it becomes much useful.

    However, there's also the problem of UMD. There's no reason to use UMD with it since an item's caster level is already predetermined upon it's creation. However, with CAB in play you also have the question of: Why would you require the skill at all? Simply saying "My CAB applies to [Class with spells]" would presumably allow you to activate scrolls and wands on that class' spell list if it affects spell levels.
    Last edited by ZeroNumerous; 2009-06-05 at 09:00 AM.

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    Default Re: a casting version of the BAB

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeta Kai View Post
    2) Make the CAB like BAB:
    • Fast Progression: CAB=1HD
    • Moderate Progression: CAB=¾HD
    • Slow Progression: CAB=½HD
    That's my starting point, so we agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeta Kai View Post
    3) Here's my thoughts on the core classes; other classes & PrCs should be decided on a case-by-case basis, with certain guidelines (like PrCs that fit into the archetype of core classes use that class's CAB).
    • Fast Progression = Cleric/Druid/Sorcerer/Wizard
    • Moderate Progression = Bard/Paladin/Ranger
    • Slow Progression = Barbarian/Fighter/Monk/Rogue
    The bard is a full caster, within his list, so no need to hold him back even more.
    I guess we disagree on Rogues.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeta Kai View Post
    4) Add all fractional values from multiple classes, then round down to determine total CAB. Non-caster CAB bonuses count for a particular spell list, determined at each level gain. Caster CAB bonuses always count toward their respective spell list.
    I must disagree -- managing fractions and deciding level-by-level would be bookkeeping nightmares.
    Last edited by Fitz10019; 2009-06-05 at 09:40 AM.

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    Default Re: a casting version of the BAB

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroNumerous View Post
    Because CAB in no way affects spell levels accessible or spell slots available.
    This is how I meant it, for spell levels and slots. Sorry for my misuse of "caster level." Editing now...

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroNumerous View Post
    [UMD] Simply saying "My CAB applies to [Class with spells]" would presumably allow you to activate scrolls and wands on that class' spell list if it affects spell levels.
    No, you missed, "You need to take a casting class to make use of your CAB" in the first paragraph. UMD would still be useful to the pure rogue.
    Last edited by Fitz10019; 2009-06-05 at 09:41 AM.

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    Default Re: a casting version of the BAB

    Quote Originally Posted by Fitz10019 View Post
    This is how I meant it, for spell levels and slots. Sorry for my misuse of "caster level." Editing now...
    Terrible idea. No offense, but observe.

    Cleric 1/Wizard 1/Druid 1/Sorcerer 1/Archivist 1/Warlock 1/Artificer 1/Warmage 1/Dread Necromancer 1/Beguiler 1/Healer 1/Favored Soul 1/Truenamer 1/Shadowcaster 1

    Full casting in all 14 classes, as my CAB is a 20. See the issue? What could stand against such a character? I can do pretty much everything, ever, and do it all day to boot. This is a serious problem...and the above character wouldn't even be that impossible, as I'd only need good mental stats.

    EDIT: Also, how do things like Truenaming, Invocations, Incarnum,
    Shadowcasting, Psionics, and Binding fit into this?
    Last edited by Djinn_in_Tonic; 2009-06-05 at 09:47 AM.

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    Default Re: a casting version of the BAB

    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn_In_Tonic View Post
    Terrible idea. No offense, but observe.

    Cleric 1/Wizard 1/Druid 1/Sorcerer 1/Archivist 1/Warlock 1/Artificer 1/Warmage 1/Dread Necromancer 1/Beguiler 1/Healer 1/Favored Soul 1/Truenamer 1/Shadowcaster 1

    Full casting in all 14 classes, as my CAB is a 20.
    Hah, no, you missed, "Any class's CAB should be dedicated to it's own spellcasting, or dedicated to a specific other class's spellcasting. " So no levels count towards more than 1 casting class. Also, your example's CAB is 14, 1 for each class.

    To your point about abuse, however, I guess a Cleric1/Druid19 could dedicate his druid CAB to cleric spellcasting and then have the cleric spell list while still being able to wildshape.
    Last edited by Fitz10019; 2009-06-05 at 09:58 AM.

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    Default Re: a casting version of the BAB

    I like that it encourages multiclassing.

    If I am interpreting this correctly, it basically replaces caster level, correct?

    So a 10th level wizard / 10th level cleric would have a caster level of 20 for any spells it casts, but only have access to 5th level spells from either side?

    That seems like a poor trade off to me.

    Hmm.

    If you let them cast full, then no one would ever go straight caster. EVERYONE would take as many dips in full caster classes as possible in order to get access to 5+ sets of full casting (wizard, bard maybe, druid, cleric, sorcerer, then you start getting Dread Necromancer and Favoured Soul and etc.) and absolute madness and brokenness ensues.

    So that's out.

    [EDIT:: Lots of discussion happened whilst I was thinking about this. I see I was interpreting that wrong, but I still like the idea I formed eventually.]

    What if you had, say, CAB that didn't replace caster level, and then the straight casting classes wouldn't actually get full CAB?

    Maybe the more hybridy classes would get full CAB (bard, rogue, ranger, paladin, monk?) and every one else gets 0.75 (no need to gimp melee that want to multiclass). Then these levels apply as such to other casting classes.

    So a 10 / 10 wizard / cleric would cast spells as a 17th wizard and 17th cleric with a CL of 17 for each.

    Hmm. Still broken, but better.

    Actually, I take that back about the hybrids getting full CAB. If you do that, you can go wizard 1 / rogue 19 and voila, full wizard casting as a 19th level rogue.

    Ok, what if every one has 1/2 CAB progression? A straight 10/10 split gets you access to 8th level spells and whatever goodies come from the other class, which isn't terribly broken but is generally favourable to straight classing in whatever. (Why be a ranger when you can be a druid / fighter and get more feats AND 8th level druid spells AND an animal companion AND wildshaping?)

    Seems like no matter what, you really encourage taking casting multiclassing, unless they have their heart set on batman.

    Could be fun, though.
    Last edited by TSED; 2009-06-05 at 09:59 AM.

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    Default Re: a casting version of the BAB

    Quote Originally Posted by Fitz10019 View Post
    Hah, no, you missed, "Any class's CAB should be dedicated to it's own spellcasting, or dedicated to a specific other class's spellcasting. " So no levels count towards more than 1 casting class.

    To your point about abuse, however, I guess a Cleric1/Druid19 could dedicate his druid CAB to cleric spellcasting and then have the cleric spell list while still being able to wildshape.
    ...wow. I feel stupid now.

    Somehow I just missed that sentence.

    To fix the problem, what if spellcasting classes automatically apply their CAB to their own spellcasting, and possibly half of that to another? That makes the Cleric 10/Druid 10 cast as a 15th level caster in both (so he's not to far behind), but keeps the Cleric 1/Druid 19 20th level Cleric caster stuff from happening. Such a character would cast as a Druid 19 and Cleric 10.

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    Default Re: a casting version of the BAB

    I guess part of what I was thinking was that if a caster is tempted to dip into a melee class, he can dip 2 or 3 levels for the same loss of spellcasting as a 1 level dip -- he's just 1 CAB 'behind' if he dips up to 4 levels into a medium CAB class. I like multiclassing, but not 1 level dips.

    I wasn't trying to encourage inter spellcasting dips, but obviously that needs to be examined.

    Perhaps this addendum, "Any full CAB class's CAB must be dedicated to that class."

    Djinn's suggestion, about 1/2 CAB double-counting in an additional class, sounds like a good feat.

    Another problem here is referring to this as "just like BAB" because BAB applies to the character, while CAB is meant to apply to a class or two or more. A Wiz6/Cleric6/Rogue4 who dedicates his Rogue CAB to his Wizard levels will have WizCAB 9 and ClericCAB 6. Unlike BAB, it can be 2 or more numbers.

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    Default Re: a casting version of the BAB

    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn_In_Tonic View Post
    Also, how do things like Truenaming, Invocations, Incarnum, Shadowcasting, Psionics, and Binding fit into this?
    Oh, and I'm ignoring this part of your post because I've never run any of those, and I don't feel like reading up on 6 new topics. Let's test the sink-or-swim for 'normal' spellcasting first.

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    Default Re: a casting version of the BAB

    Quote Originally Posted by Fitz10019 View Post
    Djinn's suggestion, about 1/2 CAB double-counting in an additional class, sounds like a good feat.


    I feel the urge to protest, as I had that idea before he did.

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    Default Re: a casting version of the BAB

    Quote Originally Posted by TSED View Post
    ...Ok, what if every one has 1/2 CAB progression? A straight 10/10 split gets you access to 8th level spells and whatever goodies come from the other class, which isn't terribly broken but is generally favourable to straight classing in whatever. (Why be a ranger when you can be a druid / fighter and get more feats AND 8th level druid spells AND an animal companion AND wildshaping?)

    ...

    Could be fun, though.
    Hah, about the ranger, is that different than NOW? Seriously, though, in a CAB system, the Ranger would have better CAB than the Fighter after 2 levels, so those later levels might be preferred over the Fighter feats.

    It sounds like you're saying the CAB is used like purchase points, like cross-class skills. An interesting but completely different idea.

    About your protest, I believe you said .75, again, a completely different idea.

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    Default Re: a casting version of the BAB

    Concepts:
    List Level
    Tradition Level

    Your List level in a class is the average of your class level (including any PrCs that advance spellcasting in the class) and your character level. Your list level is limited by twice your class level (plus any PrC levels) in the class that provides the list.

    Each class belongs to a tradition. There are Divine, Arcane and Psionic traditions (and maybe some more).

    Your Tradition Level for a tradition is the average of your Caster levels in classes that correspond to that tradition, and your Character level. If a given PrC adds to your Caster level in more than 1 class from a Tradition, it only contributes 1 level to your Tradition level. Your Tradition level is limited by twice the sum of your Caster levels within that tradition.

    Hybrid classes (Paladin and Ranger) count has half a Divine Tradition level. Note that this boosts the Paladin and Ranger casting levels to a certain degree.

    Both of these values are limited by your character level, and you round down.

    Your Tradition level determines your Caster level in a class.

    Some "multi-class PrCs" may have to be modified.

    ...

    Examples:
    Wizard 10/Fighter 10
    Has an Arcane Tradition level of 15.
    Has a Wizard List level of 15.

    Wizard 10/Sorcerer 10
    Has an Arcane Tradition level of 20
    Has a Wizard List level of 15.
    Has a Sorcerer List level of 15.

    Wizard 7/Paladin 3/Eldrich Knight 10
    (Effective Wizard Level = 7+9 = 16)
    Has an Arcane Tradition of 18
    Has a Wizard List level of 18
    (Note: EK is a multi-class PrC. Needs to be rebalanced under these changes.)

    Wizard 1/Cleric 1/Druid 1/Sorcerer 1:
    Has an Arcane Tradition level of 3
    Has a Divine Tradition level of 3
    Has a Wizard List level of 2
    Has a Cleric List level of 2
    Has a Druid List level of 2
    Has a Sorcerer List level of 2

    Sorcerer 3/Bard 2
    Has an Arcane Tradition level of 5
    Has a Sorcerer List level of 4
    Has a Bard List level of 3

    Wizard 2/Cleric 2/Mystic Theurge 10
    (EWL: 12, ECL: 12, CL: 14)
    Has a Divine Tradition level of 13
    Has an Arcane Tradition level of 13
    Has a Wizard List level of 13
    Has a Cleric List level of 13
    (Again, a multi-class PrC. This probably need rebalancing. Note that earlier entry is possible than under standard rules.)
    Last edited by Yakk; 2009-06-05 at 11:00 AM.

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    Default Re: a casting version of the BAB

    I use a Multiclass Caster feat, that allows a character to add half the number of levels in all other classes to the Caster Level for the selected class. (Levels in PrCs that raise caster level don't count.)
    - You get only caster level. No additional spell slots or spells known.
    - If you have more than one spellcasting class, you can take the feat multiple times for every spellcasting class.
    - The CL for a class can never be greater than twice the class level.

    A Fighter4/Wizard6 with the Multiclass Wizard feat, gets a Wizard CL of 8th. (4/2 = +2)
    A Fighter4/Wizard6/Cleric3 with the Multiclass Wizard feat gets a Wizard CL of 9th. (7/2 = +3)
    A Fighter4/Wizard6/Cleric3 with the Multiclass Wizard feat and the Multiclass Cleric feat gets a Wizard CL of 9th and a Cleric CL of 6th. (10/2 = +5; Maximum is 3*2 = 6th)
    Last edited by Yora; 2009-06-05 at 11:03 AM.

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    Default Re: a casting version of the BAB

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    I use a Multiclass Caster feat
    - You get only caster level. No additional spell slots or spells known.
    Thanks, it's a good feat for the current system. This system is explicitly meant to let spell slots and spells known progress.

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    Default Re: a casting version of the BAB

    Quote Originally Posted by Yakk View Post
    Concepts:
    List Level
    Tradition Level
    I like this. I was just struggling with the idea of a Wiz1/Fighter19 having the spellcasting of a 10th level wizard under the CAB system as currently stated. A cap on how far class casting can grow from non-casting is needed.

    I assume in this example:
    Wizard 10/Fighter 10
    Has an Arcane Tradition level of 15.
    Has a Wizard List level of 15.

    ...the player chose for the fighter to be counted as Arcane, and a Cleric10/Fighter10 would have a Divine Tradition level 15, and Cleric List level of 15. Correct?

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    Default Re: a casting version of the BAB

    The Fighter is a non-Arcane class. Nor is it an Arcane Hybrid.

    You take the sum of your Arcane Class Levels, and average it with your Character Level, to get your Arcane Tradition Level (round down). This is capped at twice your Arcane Class Levels.

    For your "Spell List level", you take the number of class levels that contribute to your spell list progression (usually just the base class, plus any PrCs), then average it with your character level. Round down. This is also capped by twice your "class levels that contribute to your spell list progression".

    So two Divine classes work together for caster level, but a second divine class doesn't advance your spell list progression any better than any other class.

    So a Cleric 6/Wizard 6/Fighter 6 has
    (6 arcane class levels + 18 character levels)/2 = 12 Arcane Tradition Levels
    (6 wizard class levels + 18 character levels)/2 = 12 Wizard Spell List Levels.
    And the same for Divine and Cleric levels.

    A Cleric 6/Druid 6/Fighter 6 would have:
    (12 divine class levels + 18 character levels)/2 = 15 Divine Tradition levels
    (6 cleric class levels + 18 character levels)/2 = 12 Cleric List levels
    (6 druid class levels + 18 character levels)/2 = 12 Druid List levels

    By being a double-divine class, their divine casting level is a touch higher than the Wizard/Cleric character. This encourages things like Paladin/Clerics.

    A Paladin 6/Cleric 6 would have:
    9 Cleric List levels
    9 Paladin List levels
    10 Divine Tradition Levels

    A Paladin 12 would have:
    12 Paladin List levels
    9 Divine Tradition levels (6 levels from paladin + 12 character levels)/2 = 9.

    A Paladin 6/Cleric 14 would have:
    18 Divine Tradition levels (casts divine spells as an 18th level caster)
    17 Cleric List levels (spell list of a level 17 cleric)
    13 Paladin List levels (spell list of a level 13 paladin)

    The Divine Tradition level acts as your caster level for Divine classes. So under this system, pure-class Rangers and Paladins have a higher caster level than under the standard system.

    But a level 19 fighter who splashes a level of wizard gets an arcane tradition level of 2 and a wizard list level of 2 -- not 10.
    Last edited by Yakk; 2009-06-05 at 11:59 AM.

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    Default Re: a casting version of the BAB

    Quote Originally Posted by Yakk View Post
    Hybrid classes (Paladin and Ranger) count has half a Divine Tradition level.
    Considering UMD as class skill, should the Rogue be considered an Arcane Hybrid, count as half a Divine Tradition level?

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    Default Re: a casting version of the BAB

    /shrug?

    I gave Paladins and Rangers "Divine Hybrid" status because, under the core game, they have a divine caster level equal to half of their class level.

    By default, any class with that property I'd consider to be a "X Hybrid", where X is the kind of class they are.

    As I'm adding together Druid and Cleric class levels for the purpose of their Divine Tradition Caster Level, it seemed rude to neglect the Paladin and Ranger.

    ...

    The explicit motivation behind it was an actual play example of someone who built a 5th level character as a Bard 3/Sorcerer 2 (who didn't realise the trap)

    Under this system, this character would be an Arcane Tradition 5/Bard List 4/Sorcerer List 3 character -- a more viable class. And it makes sense, at least to me, that your Sorcerer arcane blood would make your Bard spells more powerful (while doing so in a Divine/Arcane cross seemed pushing it -- the power sources are themed as quite distinct).

    In short:
    Your X Tradition represents your affinity to the power source. You gain levels in the tradition from character growth, and faster if you gain a level in that tradition's classes.

    Two classes in the same tradition add power-wise.

    Your X List rating represents your mastery of that sub-section of that power source's magic. Two classes in the same tradition don't do anything super-special with Lists.

    Averaging of your character and effective class level is an easier to explain way to say "all classes that don't contribute to your effective class level now contribute 1 for every 2 levels". The math works, and the explanation is much easier.

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