Depression Thread IV: Read the first post or...

[KataraAltinaII]

Katara, I appreciate the advice. Moving out seems like a good idea, but not a smart one. I'm tight on funds, and still looking for a job (I technically have one now, but don't plan on having it for much longer. Telemarketing is suckage. Plus, it's a very temporary job). Even if it's only for a couple months, I think it's better off for me to just stick it out at home. Hopefully I'll find a job that's good enough for it to be an escape from home.

understandable. That's exactly how I felt. I felt that moving out would be the best idea, but not very smart once I looked at it. I saw it as "I'll tough out these next few months till I can get back to college"

and incidentally, my days got better.
of course, I can't guarantee this same luck, but you never know.
and yeah, telemarketing isn't something I can say I'm fond of.

but yeah, a couple months can get you a couple thousand extra dollars. one vast advantage about living with mom and pop is that there's no rent involved [unless they're evil]. the $100/month thing though IS true, as I've done it, and I work 20-25 hours a week at Sonic. [a drive-in fast food place for anyone who doesn't know.]

[Lycanthromancer]

As a preface, I really hope my story helps some of you. For those of you wanting to get better, to feel better, this is likely the best chance you'll ever get. Especially for those with long-term, clinical depression (or any other chronic disease, really). I've been there. I've done that. I know what it's like to suffer, and I know how great it is to get better.

Just keep reading, please.

...

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I used to suffer from depression so very badly, both dysthymic and severe. I felt down and just bad all the time. I had panic attacks, severe anxiety all day long, and got so stressed out for such long periods of time that I'd literally begin hallucinating as my mind snapped. There were days when I couldn't leave my room, and I'd pass out from hyperventilation if someone made me.

I was extremely overweight (I weighed over 300 lbs when I was 11, and my weight only went up from there), I was sick all the time, had constant headaches, and my blood sugar would plummet whenever I exerted myself. I also found myself having to gorge on food almost constantly, because I'd get so hungry that I'd double over with abdominal cramps.

I'd lived with misery for a very long time, for nearly 25 years (to give you an idea of how much of my life was spent suffering, I turned 29 in February). My life was a living hell, I couldn't function, and none of my family was sympathetic; they just assumed I was mopey and lazy. The cold, hard reality was that I was so miserable that I was ready to commit suicide numerous times (and probably would have, if I didn't have a panic attack every time I thought of it).

Depression medications did strange and terrible things to me. Every time I'd take anything my body and mind went haywire. One time when I'd started on a new med, for example, a quarter of a dose knocked me unconscious for over 3 days straight; I awoke lying in my own filth. And that was one of the better side-effects. So medications were out.

Exercise didn't help, either. About 10 years ago I started exercising, determined to change things, and managed to work my way out of passing out every time I pushed myself, though I'd still occasionally collapse from low blood sugar. I somehow managed to push myself to the point where I was exercising, and hard, for over 30 hours a week. I was eating 1200-1500 calories a day (mostly fruits and vegetables - which, luckily, I love). And I was gaining more weight than when I gorged myself (and not muscle, either).

I was desperate, and the doctors I saw either didn't realize how bad it was, or didn't care. The advice they gave, "just get over it," and "exercise and diet" certainly didn't do a damned thing to help.

I started doing research into why nothing helped, and found out some things that made me both very frightened, and very angry.

It turns out that the food that we eat, the stuff that's supposed to be so good for us, like fruits and vegetables? There's nothing in them. Because of the shortcuts that most farmers take to increase their profits, the plants they grow LOOK pretty, but they're growing with few-to-no nutrients in them, because of the cheap fertilizer they're using and the pesticides and such they spray on. One batch of oranges that were tested in a lab didn't have a drop of vitamin C in any of them.

And it seems that no matter how much of the 'good stuff' you eat, your body is starving for nutrition. And when your body doesn't have the tools it needs to stay healthy, it starts breaking down, and you get sick.

For me, the 'sick' was obesity, hypoglycemia, depression, stress, anxiety, panic attacks, and a host of other problems.

And so I started looking for a high-quality nutritional supplement to take, because I couldn't live in abject misery anymore; if this last-ditch effort didn't work, that was it. I was finally consigned to kill myself to end it all.

Problem is, here in the USA nutritional supplements are just barely regulated. The stuff I could get in health-food stores has to contain just 60% of what the labels claim, and that's not good enough. On top of that, most are just barely absorb-able (vitamin pills such as Centrum pass through your digestive system whole, because the body can't break them down).

I had to find supplemental nutrition that was made by a company that believed in helping people, and formulated its products with that in mind.

And you know what? I found one. One of the best, most stringently-tested products in the world, according to my research. I began supplementing my diet, and the pounds suddenly started dropping. I started having lots of energy, felt better than I had in...well...ever...and the miserable malaise I'd suffered with for decades steadily went away.

I no longer have panic attacks. I no longer feel stressed out constantly. I dropped a grand total of more than 400 lbs.

And. I. Feel. GREAT. I feel normal. I finally feel happy. It's almost hard to remember the angry, bitter, spiteful person I used to be.

It hurts to recall how I used to feel, and it hurts me whenever others are suffering like I used to; and so I decided I had to start telling people about it. And I figured that, since this stuff can only be gotten from distributors, that the best way to get the word out is to sell it myself.

Enter Reliv.

I know that advertising things here is against the rules, and I apologize if this breaks the CoC, but I can't stand to watch people suffer from those things I used to suffer from. I had to say something.

This stuff is 98% absorb-able, and literally has everything in it that the body needs to stay healthy.

It helped me so much, and I'll always be grateful for the wonderful lady that told me about it.

So if anybody is interested in learning more about it, PM me.

You might not be interested; not everyone believes that giving their body what it needs will help.

But I'm living proof that it does work. If you're wanting to try something that, in all likelihood, will change your life forever, give me a buzz.

[Zeb The Troll]

I have to wonder. If this stuff (Reliv) is so helpful (I'm up in the air on this. My in-laws believe in it fanatically. To the point where my brother-in-law once quipped that it could repair broken glass because his mother recommends it for ALL ailments.) and the company is so focused on helping people, why haven't they made it generally available to the public at grocery stores, pharmacies, or even health supplement stores like GNC? Why make it only available through distributors like it's an Avon product? Why withhold it from the populace and only sell it to the privileged few who happen to have encountered a distributor?

[Pyrian]

I'm always reminded of that guy who loudly recommended drinking a radioactive substance - and then it killed him horribly. The track record of panaceas in general, and anecdotive panaceas in particular, is quite terrible.

[afroakuma]

I tend to pop in here from time to time to vent. This is another one of those times.

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My life has become more stressful now that I'm home. Most of it seems to revolve around my father. For a very long time now (we're talking years), the most conversation I've ever gotten out of him is him lecturing me on this and that. "Keep your grades up" was the big one during high school. "College is important" popped up every now and then. Dunno why, because I actually looked forward to college, partly as an escape.

These days, it's "Get a job" and "Why aren't you going to church at school". The job one is worse. He hates that I'm being choosy. I admit, you really can't be too choosy in today's job market, but I want to have a job that I will enjoy to some extent. Working full time is unnecessary at the moment (he acts like I'm paying off my loans now, when this won't happen until I'm done with school. Saving is a good idea, and I plan to. But even if I work a full-time job, saving money after using it for other expenses won't amount to enough to pay off a couple years of school), and tends to drain me mentally. 20 hours a week seems fine to me, but to him I should be working close to 40. Work work work. It's all he really seems to care about.

The biggest reason why I don't want to work full time at this moment is because I don't want to end up like him in the future. He's always so concerned about work, and when I look at him, he never seems happy. I... don't want to be like that when I'm an adult. I want to enjoy life, not just worry about it all the time.

Another problem I have with him is that he never really seems concerned about me personally. Based on what he's said to me most of my life, he seems to care more about my success than me. Just take this past week for example. I've been ill since Saturday (if you haven't seen the tread asking for medical advice on the forums). Based on his actions, attitude, and what he's said, his response was "Suck it up". On Monday night, I woke up at 2 AM with abdominal pain and stomach upset so bad that I couldn't even sleep. That morning, due to the symptoms and the lack of sleep, I could barely get around the house. I called in to my work and left a message saying I was sick, and set up an appointment with my doctor. My dad was suspecting that I would do this, so he called that morning around the time that I would be at work. At that time, no one would be home, so I would give it away by answering it. I did the adult thing and picked up the phone. The very first words that came out of his mouth were "Why aren't you at work".

They say that parents nag and push you for success out of love, but I'm starting to have my doubts. In my opinion, he's driving me to be successful because I might possibly be the only one who will be. My brother has been struggling with grades, is rude to a lot of people (including my parents), and is generally a spoiled brat. One time, my mom and I were talking (don't remember what) and she finished one sentence with "if your brother goes to college." I inquired her about it, and she said that she had doubts whether or not my brother would be accepted anywhere. It's like they now consider him a lost cause, and now every ounce of responsibility is on me. I know it comes with being the eldest, but this seems overboard.

I dunno... I've been wanting to seek therapy for a while now, but my dad would probably get angry about that somehow too, saying that "I don't need it" or something. Even if he did let me go, he would want the "give it a name and a medication" treatment. I'll have to do it in secret if I want it at all.

*sigh* Though I had problems with college, it wasn't as bad as this. I miss it.

I thank anyone who took the time to read that. It's always nice when someone sits down and actually listens to someone else.

Slayer: you have my deepest sympathies. I endured a similar situation in my first year of university, with the exception that my father was right here during the term.

If you need a shoulder, my PM box is usually clear. I completely understand that sort of messed-up situation.

[Serpentine]

I tend to pop in here from time to time to vent. This is another one of those times.

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My life has become more stressful now that I'm home. Most of it seems to revolve around my father. For a very long time now (we're talking years), the most conversation I've ever gotten out of him is him lecturing me on this and that. "Keep your grades up" was the big one during high school. "College is important" popped up every now and then. Dunno why, because I actually looked forward to college, partly as an escape.

These days, it's "Get a job" and "Why aren't you going to church at school". The job one is worse. He hates that I'm being choosy. I admit, you really can't be too choosy in today's job market, but I want to have a job that I will enjoy to some extent. Working full time is unnecessary at the moment (he acts like I'm paying off my loans now, when this won't happen until I'm done with school. Saving is a good idea, and I plan to. But even if I work a full-time job, saving money after using it for other expenses won't amount to enough to pay off a couple years of school), and tends to drain me mentally. 20 hours a week seems fine to me, but to him I should be working close to 40. Work work work. It's all he really seems to care about.

The biggest reason why I don't want to work full time at this moment is because I don't want to end up like him in the future. He's always so concerned about work, and when I look at him, he never seems happy. I... don't want to be like that when I'm an adult. I want to enjoy life, not just worry about it all the time.

Another problem I have with him is that he never really seems concerned about me personally. Based on what he's said to me most of my life, he seems to care more about my success than me. Just take this past week for example. I've been ill since Saturday (if you haven't seen the tread asking for medical advice on the forums). Based on his actions, attitude, and what he's said, his response was "Suck it up". On Monday night, I woke up at 2 AM with abdominal pain and stomach upset so bad that I couldn't even sleep. That morning, due to the symptoms and the lack of sleep, I could barely get around the house. I called in to my work and left a message saying I was sick, and set up an appointment with my doctor. My dad was suspecting that I would do this, so he called that morning around the time that I would be at work. At that time, no one would be home, so I would give it away by answering it. I did the adult thing and picked up the phone. The very first words that came out of his mouth were "Why aren't you at work".

They say that parents nag and push you for success out of love, but I'm starting to have my doubts. In my opinion, he's driving me to be successful because I might possibly be the only one who will be. My brother has been struggling with grades, is rude to a lot of people (including my parents), and is generally a spoiled brat. One time, my mom and I were talking (don't remember what) and she finished one sentence with "if your brother goes to college." I inquired her about it, and she said that she had doubts whether or not my brother would be accepted anywhere. It's like they now consider him a lost cause, and now every ounce of responsibility is on me. I know it comes with being the eldest, but this seems overboard.

I dunno... I've been wanting to seek therapy for a while now, but my dad would probably get angry about that somehow too, saying that "I don't need it" or something. Even if he did let me go, he would want the "give it a name and a medication" treatment. I'll have to do it in secret if I want it at all.

*sigh* Though I had problems with college, it wasn't as bad as this. I miss it.

I thank anyone who took the time to read that. It's always nice when someone sits down and actually listens to someone else.

Have you tried actually telling your dad about this? Maybe one morning, when he goes to have a go at him again, cut him off with a "Father. Whatever you're about to say, you've already said it, over and over again. I'm sick of it. I already know it. If you want to talk to me today, make it about something else. Otherwise, I will not listen. So, how's work been?"
That last bit, I think, could be particularly helpful. Divert the attention back onto him. When he tries to talk about you, aside from telling him you don't want to, try asking him how he is, what he's been doing lately, what he wants to do, what he's going to do when he retires, etc. Maybe - maybe -if you initiate the conversation sometimes, you'll have more control over it. But most of all, talk with them - don't let them talk at you.

[Thanatos 51-50]

Thanatos being rude and posting abut himself tiem [sic] (I promise I'll be better about this thread, really.)

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Now, first, as a few general disclaimers:
I'm aware that the Navy has given me a "sweet gig". Any fellow military pointing this out again will be mildly chastised, mentally, to myself, where no-one else can hear it.
I generally have low self-esteem and can be critically self-depreciating. Any attempts to adress this as the problem will be throughly ignored.

In a few words as possible: The Navy is giving me problems. Again. At times, it feels like I'm being, speciically 'targetted' by my Chief and LPO.(Although, looking through evidence and applying logic, this seems to not be the case). Of all things, the one I'm constantly counseled for, to the point of standing a Disciplinary Review Board (DRB) because of it, is cleanliness.

~~~Few words as possible ends here~~~
That's right, the Navy yells at me for not keeping my bloody barracks room clean enough for them. This would be justifiable if I lived in Open Bay or aboard ship, But I live, for all intents and purposes, alone. I have one room-mate whom I never see, and our common area is almost never the issue. He's held just as responable for common area issues as me, anyway.
No, it's the actual place where I sleep, eat, compute, read, and do practically everything save expell waste and practice personal hygene from.

For the record, said room has about two paces of width at it's widest point, with the majority of the being narrow enough for me to put my foot through my TV from my bed. And maybe three paces of length.
To further matters, I generally don't do much there, intentionally distubing as little as possible to achieve whatever goal I have. I get chided for organisation. Because, apparently, the place looks like it's disorganised. The complaint isn't that my books or whatever appear to be in particular order (arranged by size, for the curious), but that I put stuff on top of other stuff, or that things are arranged in a less-than-conventional manner.
(My cell phone was spotted on my desk, plugged in, and on top of my 4th ed books. This was a hit.)
I got a hit for stowing my backpack on a chair, my boots next to my bed, and hanging a collapsed umbrella on the doorknob to my closet.
It's pretty ridiculous.
I've contested that, in the face of actual, legitimate hit, that I'm just not very good at cleaning. They have, occasionally, been called a health issue, but I believe that my command finally noticed that I'm almost never sick, and I've gone to sick call a total of twice - one of which was because I was just attacked by a hawk.

And then there's the occasional claim that my work isn't up to snuff (It's, indeed, better than most of my peers, and quite oten outstrips one of my second class's.) And even the ridiculous claims that I'm avoiding doing it, seemingly ignoring the fact that my work is always done, and on the few occasions it's not 'on time' (Read: Hours earlier than it needs to be), there is always a very good reason that was beyond my control or mitigation powers (The <data source> was down, <Program> crashed, Network-wide <system> reboot without giving me enough time to save <project>, et. cetera.)

In other, non-spoilerriffic and self-centered news; my PM box is ALWAYS open, and my MSN account is usually open. I'll make an effort to monitor this thread and ofer advice better.

Edit:
Looking back at that wall o' text, and all I can think is Wow, I'm Petty.

[Mr. Mud]

Thanatos being rude and posting abut himself tiem [sic] (I promise I'll be better about this thread, really.)

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Now, first, as a few general disclaimers:
I'm aware that the Navy has given me a "sweet gig". Any fellow military pointing this out again will be mildly chastised, mentally, to myself, where no-one else can hear it.
I generally have low self-esteem and can be critically self-depreciating. Any attempts to adress this as the problem will be throughly ignored.

In a few words as possible: The Navy is giving me problems. Again. At times, it feels like I'm being, speciically 'targetted' by my Chief and LPO.(Although, looking through evidence and applying logic, this seems to not be the case). Of all things, the one I'm constantly counseled for, to the point of standing a Disciplinary Review Board (DRB) because of it, is cleanliness.

~~~Few words as possible ends here~~~
That's right, the Navy yells at me for not keeping my bloody barracks room clean enough for them. This would be justifiable if I lived in Open Bay or aboard ship, But I live, for all intents and purposes, alone. I have one room-mate whom I never see, and our common area is almost never the issue. He's held just as responable for common area issues as me, anyway.
No, it's the actual place where I sleep, eat, compute, read, and do practically everything save expell waste and practice personal hygene from.

For the record, said room has about two paces of width at it's widest point, with the majority of the being narrow enough for me to put my foot through my TV from my bed. And maybe three paces of length.
To further matters, I generally don't do much there, intentionally distubing as little as possible to achieve whatever goal I have. I get chided for organisation. Because, apparently, the place looks like it's disorganised. The complaint isn't that my books or whatever appear to be in particular order (arranged by size, for the curious), but that I put stuff on top of other stuff, or that things are arranged in a less-than-conventional manner.
(My cell phone was spotted on my desk, plugged in, and on top of my 4th ed books. This was a hit.)
I got a hit for stowing my backpack on a chair, my boots next to my bed, and hanging a collapsed umbrella on the doorknob to my closet.
It's pretty ridiculous.
I've contested that, in the face of actual, legitimate hit, that I'm just not very good at cleaning. They have, occasionally, been called a health issue, but I believe that my command finally noticed that I'm almost never sick, and I've gone to sick call a total of twice - one of which was because I was just attacked by a hawk.

And then there's the occasional claim that my work isn't up to snuff (It's, indeed, better than most of my peers, and quite oten outstrips one of my second class's.) And even the ridiculous claims that I'm avoiding doing it, seemingly ignoring the fact that my work is always done, and on the few occasions it's not 'on time' (Read: Hours earlier than it needs to be), there is always a very good reason that was beyond my control or mitigation powers (The <data source> was down, <Program> crashed, Network-wide <system> reboot without giving me enough time to save <project>, et. cetera.)

In other, non-spoilerriffic and self-centered news; my PM box is ALWAYS open, and my MSN account is usually open. I'll make an effort to monitor this thread and ofer advice better.

Edit:
Looking back at that wall o' text, and all I can think is Wow, I'm Petty.

Thanatos, I was born and breed in the midst of Navy culture... and if you need a shoulder, a hug, or someone to spot you when you bench press the tears away, please, PM me . (If you don't want to use PM, just PM me your MSN).

[Lycanthromancer]

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I have to wonder. If this stuff (Reliv) is so helpful (I'm up in the air on this. My in-laws believe in it fanatically. To the point where my brother-in-law once quipped that it could repair broken glass because his mother recommends it for ALL ailments.) and the company is so focused on helping people, why haven't they made it generally available to the public at grocery stores, pharmacies, or even health supplement stores like GNC? Why make it only available through distributors like it's an Avon product? Why withhold it from the populace and only sell it to the privileged few who happen to have encountered a distributor?

Reliv relies on word-of-mouth advertising because viral marketing tends to be incredibly successful, and people who've experienced great things with it (ie, nearly everyone who takes it) are more than willing to share with others. It's also the best way to spread education and information about how the products work. Since Reliv's overarching goal is to help people truly take control of their health and their lives, would you say that spreading legitimate information about nutrition is important?

There's a reason the phrase "Knowledge Is Power" is touted so often, no?

The issue with Reliv is that it's not something that always has immediately noticeable results. It's not a drug that covers up symptoms; it's a nutrient-rich food product that nourishes the body in the ways it needs. It takes time (could be a week, could be 6 months) because it helps the body to repair itself. Healing is often a slow process, mostly because the actual problems are being addressed. Since the effects aren't always noticeable immediately, relying on person-to-person communication keeps people going for the period of time necessary to do what the body needs to be done.

If the product was available in stores, quietly sitting on a shelf somewhere, what do you think would happen to people who are used to our instant gratification-based society? Would they stay on a product that didn't have immediately noticeable results? Would they generally be patient enough to see their body gradually getting better, to the point where their problems go away, more or less permanently?

Probably not.

The point isn't to sell more product and see people fail because they're not being patient; it's to do the most good possible, to get the most people healthy possible over the long haul, one person at a time.

It's a service-oriented company, first and last. It promotes the need to help others. And giving people the power to enrich their own lives to help others improve theirs spreads the idea that maybe the phrase "love thy neighbor" means something after all.

And this is the way the founders of Reliv International thought best to accomplish those goals.

I'm always reminded of that guy who loudly recommended drinking a radioactive substance - and then it killed him horribly.

I'm not quite sure that consuming some highly hazardous substance, known to kill those who are exposed to it, is quite the same as giving your body the tools needed to fix itself.

Would you agree that the body cannot keep itself healthy if it doesn't have the means available to do so? Can you drive a car with saltwater in the gas-tank and Crisco instead of motor oil, and expect it to run?

Your body is designed to keep going, to keep you alive, even when it's starving for nutrition; it can't do it indefinitely, but it can do it. Even with the ability to do without what it needs, it still breaks down eventually, slowly but surely.

Have you noticed how society is getting sicker and sicker? And how all of these chronic diseases keep popping up and not getting better? Once upon a time, diabetes was practically unheard of. Nobody knew what rheumatoid arthritis was. Cancer was extremely rare.

And now they're all over the place.

There's a reason for that, don't you think?

The track record of panaceas in general, and anecdotive panaceas in particular, is quite terrible.

I'm not claiming that this is a "cure-all". If your body is getting sick because it's not getting the proper nutrition, and it suddenly starts getting the nutrition it needs, what else would you expect, but for the problems to go away?

Reliv has gone for a full 21 years without a single lawsuit levied against it. It's listed on the NASDAQ, has won awards by notables such as Forbes and Fortune Magazine.

Do you really want to dismiss something that has over 21 years of helping people successfully? Or worse, to prevent someone else from getting well?

You can believe in it or not; that's none of my business. But can you really afford to dismiss it so easily, if it works as well as personal experience has told me it does?

You can suffer if you want, but I choose to live without depression.

Anyway, let's not derail the thread. PM me with comments, unless they're relevant to the discussion of depression, please.

[Pyrian]

No.

Reliv is a "multi-level marketing" gimmick. Much of what you just stated is verifiably untrue with only a tiny amount of poking around. You are personally acting as an advertising/marketing agent, and presumably stand to personally profit from anybody you lure into this scheme. As such, I find your claims not credible and your blatant marketing activities against the forum rules.

[Lycanthromancer]

No.

Reliv is a "multi-level marketing" gimmick. Much of what you just stated is verifiably untrue with only a tiny amount of poking around. You are personally acting as an advertising/marketing agent, and presumably stand to personally profit from anybody you lure into this scheme. As such, I find your claims not credible and your blatant marketing activities against the forum rules.

Heck, I'd be willing to give the business to someone else, if it'll prove that I'm not doing this for my own good. Though there's a 30-day, 100% money-back guarantee if you don't like what you see, so it's not like there's any risk involved anywhere.

And of course it's multi-level marketing. That's one of the best ways of doing business and making money around, for everyone involved (including the customers). You say that like it's a bad thing.

Now, enough of this derailment. PM me if you want to say something.

[Serpentine]

Lycanthromancer:

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The issue with Reliv is that it's not something that always has immediately noticeable results. It's not a drug that covers up symptoms; it's a nutrient-rich food product that nourishes the body in the ways it needs.

"Food product"? Or "pill"? (No, wait, powder. Same diff) And I would argue the idea that it "nourishes the body in the way it needs" - the body needs food to be nourished in the way it needs. Can we get some evidence that US (I presume) food is nutritionally deficient? I wouldn't exactly be surprised, but claims like that really need to be backed-up, and I would argue that giving up on it completely isn't exactly fixing the problem. Buying organic or other good food and/or growing your own could be a better start.
Alright, read the links in your initial post. Regarding the one relevant here, I found a few similar or same papers on it. Looks about right - though it only seems to have been done in the US and the UK. There was one line in one of them, though: "Since horticultural products in general, and fruits and nuts in particular, are relatively small contributors of minerals to the average UK diet, historical changes in mineral composition are unlikely to be significant in overall dietary terms." Doesn't mean it isn't still a problem, of course.

Have you noticed how society is getting sicker and sicker? And how all of these chronic diseases keep popping up and not getting better? Once upon a time, diabetes was practically unheard of. Nobody knew what rheumatoid arthritis was. Cancer was extremely rare.

Umm... Nyet. People used to complain all the time about their arthritis and gout, and although there's a good chance that gout isn't the same as rheumatoid arthritis I doubt many people would have distinguished between them (and I don't know why you specified that type, anyway). Diabetes is easily attributed to poor diet (not just plain "sick society"), and anyway it was by no means "practically unheard of" - peoples all over the world knew it very well. Finally, cancer. Nope. It's just that people are living long enough to get it - it is, to a large degree, an age illness, not, say, a "diet" one. In any case, this too was not "extremely rare", but rather very well-known. As for the idea that "chronic diseases keep cropping up" - I would suggest that that is more due to some combination of a perceived increase because non-chronic diseases are now largely treatable and so chronic ones seem more common, lifestyle issues such as overuse of antibiotics and over-protection from pathogens at an early age, and probably some other factor. Again, it's not new.
As my medieval history lecturer tells phone-ringing and door-knocking missionaries who try to tell him how terrible the world is nowadays: Actually, compared to the way things used to be, we've got it pretty damn good.

Reliv has gone for a full 21 years without a single lawsuit levied against it. It's listed on the NASDAQ, has won awards by notables such as Forbes and Fortune Magazine.

Of course, that doesn't actually mean it works. Doesn't mean it doesn't, either. I did look at the website, and while it describes in some detail its "Scientific Advisory Board", I can't actually find any real evidence that it works. I am not saying that it does not, or that people shouldn't take it as a supplement to their diets where poor nutrition is out of their control. I am saying that if you are going to offer health advice, you ought to recommend with evidence, not proselytise.

Do you really want to dismiss something that has over 21 years of helping people successfully? Or worse, to prevent someone else from getting well?

Diseases were treated on the basis of entirely fictional "humours" for hundreds of years. Age != reliability. Also, I fail to see where anyone has suggested that people should be "prevented from getting well".

You can believe in it or not; that's none of my business. But can you really afford to dismiss it so easily, if it works as well as personal experience has told me it does?

If you're trying to make us "believe" in it, then you're selling superstition or religion, not medicine. Personal experience can tell lots of people lots of things. If you're recommending a scientifically-founded medical product, you need evidence to be convincing.

You can suffer if you want, but I choose to live without depression.

You're getting dangerously close to dismissing clinical depression with a "if you don't use this product, you're choosing to be depressed".
Now, looking at that website, it does seem to be relatively good, so far as "nutritional supplements" go. I also agree that diet and general health most likely plays a huge role in mental and emotional wellbeing. However, I would much prefer to be convinced by someone who can offer proper, reliable evidence and answer perfectly reasonable questions on the product without an onslaught of overly defensive passive-aggressive rhetorical questions and pseudo-science.

[Lycanthromancer]

Serpentine:

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Lycanthromancer:

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"Food product"? Or "pill"? (No, wait, powder. Same diff) And I would argue the idea that it "nourishes the body in the way it needs" - the body needs food to be nourished in the way it needs. Can we get some evidence that US (I presume) food is nutritionally deficient? I wouldn't exactly be surprised, but claims like that really need to be backed-up, and I would argue that giving up on it completely isn't exactly fixing the problem. Buying organic or other good food and/or growing your own could be a better start.
Alright, read the links in your initial post. Regarding the one relevant here, I found a few similar or same papers on it. Looks about right - though it only seems to have been done in the US and the UK. There was one line in one of them, though: "Since horticultural products in general, and fruits and nuts in particular, are relatively small contributors of minerals to the average UK diet, historical changes in mineral composition are unlikely to be significant in overall dietary terms." Doesn't mean it isn't still a problem, of course.
Umm... Nyet. People used to complain all the time about their arthritis and gout, and although there's a good chance that gout isn't the same as rheumatoid arthritis I doubt many people would have distinguished between them (and I don't know why you specified that type, anyway). Diabetes is easily attributed to poor diet (not just plain "sick society"), and anyway it was by no means "practically unheard of" - peoples all over the world knew it very well. Finally, cancer. Nope. It's just that people are living long enough to get it - it is, to a large degree, an age illness, not, say, a "diet" one. In any case, this too was not "extremely rare", but rather very well-known. As for the idea that "chronic diseases keep cropping up" - I would suggest that that is more due to some combination of a perceived increase because non-chronic diseases are now largely treatable and so chronic ones seem more common, lifestyle issues such as overuse of antibiotics and over-protection from pathogens at an early age, and probably some other factor. Again, it's not new.
As my medieval history lecturer tells phone-ringing and door-knocking missionaries who try to tell him how terrible the world is nowadays: Actually, compared to the way things used to be, we've got it pretty damn good.

Of course, that doesn't actually mean it works. Doesn't mean it doesn't, either. I did look at the website, and while it describes in some detail its "Scientific Advisory Board", I can't actually find any real evidence that it works. I am not saying that it does not, or that people shouldn't take it as a supplement to their diets where poor nutrition is out of their control. I am saying that if you are going to offer health advice, you ought to recommend with evidence, not proselytise.
Diseases were treated on the basis of entirely fictional "humours" for hundreds of years. Age != reliability. Also, I fail to see where anyone has suggested that people should be "prevented from getting well".
If you're trying to make us "believe" in it, then you're selling superstition or religion, not medicine. Personal experience can tell lots of people lots of things. If you're recommending a scientifically-founded medical product, you need evidence to be convincing.
You're getting dangerously close to dismissing clinical depression with a "if you don't use this product, you're choosing to be depressed".
Now, looking at that website, it does seem to be relatively good, so far as "nutritional supplements" go. I also agree that diet and general health most likely plays a huge role in mental and emotional wellbeing. However, I would much prefer to be convinced by someone who can offer proper, reliable evidence and answer perfectly reasonable questions on the product without an onslaught of overly defensive passive-aggressive rhetorical questions and pseudo-science.

It took me awhile, but I found this and this. I couldn't find the studies for the other products.

The powder is used as a shake. It's considered a food-product, and as a powder it's far more soluble and digestible than pills are.

[Alarra]

While the topic of Reliv (and actually nutritional supplements in general) is interesting and the discussion has merit, this isn't the thread for it. While the initial post was topical, as a possible depression treatment (although it did come close to violating the anti-advertising rule), the ensuing discussion has rather derailed the thread. If people are interested in continuing this discussion, I would recommend starting a new thread for it.

[Serpentine]

That's a start, but neither of those are scientific papers. I found this one, but it still doesn't seem so reliable to me, the abstract just doesn't read right.These ones look better - and are pretty much the only decent articles on Reliv I can find.
Incidentally, I also found this book, You Can Be Rich By Tuesday: The Secrets of Making a Fortune in Multi-level Marketing, in which the Reliv company is specifically mentioned
edit: Whoops... Um... I wrote this before that was put in. Can I leave it?

[Jacklu]

Okay, because I didn't rant nearly enough in my normal chat group already tonight:

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I've been struggling with a pretty heavy depression for the last few months and it is killing me. Not literally, but sometimes it might as well be. I am increasingly resentful of myself for being as depressed as I am all the time. My life is really good, all things considered. I sometimes wish there was something medically wrong with me, just so I could feel justified for feeling as bad as I do. I never seem to be accomplishing anything aside from getting up in the morning (and by morning, I mean no earlier than noon over the last two months), wasting my day on the computer, and going to bed exhausted despite having done nothing. I hate myself for doing badly at the things I fail in, and when I do succeed, I can't shake the feeling that somehow I cheated and don't deserve to have done well. Most of all, I resent the fact that I am so good at hiding just how screwed up I am to anyone in my life that might be able to see that there is something wrong and help fix it. Day in and day out I lie and pretend that I am doing fine, then at night I log onto the web and spend my time venting and complaining to the group of people I know online. I feel like such a burden to the people that care about me, and I don't feel like I ever give anything back. Even as I am writing this I can't help admonishing myself for it and feeling like this is nothing more than a self-centered cry for sympathy and attention. At the same time, there are times when I feel almost angry at the people who try to comfort me, because deep down, no matter how much I hate feeling like this, I feel like it is my fault that I am depressed, and that I deserve to be like this. That I must have done something and this is my punishment for it.

For those in my chat group that already heard this rant, I apologize for wasting you time twice in one night.

[Cheesegear]

@ Jacklu

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I never seem to be accomplishing anything aside from getting up in the morning (and by morning, I mean no earlier than noon over the last two months), wasting my day on the computer, and going to bed...

You've got 'Computerised Depression', or, Lazy Man's Syndrome; ...You're not feeling like you're accomplishing anything...Because you aren't. Sadly.

You wrote it yourself. You're wasting your days. You know the problem.

Simple as that. I had a trick once, to prove a point to myself. I took my computer's power cord, and put it somewhere really inconvenient to get to. To be honest, I would've thrown it on the roof if I wasn't afraid of weather damage. So, instead I put it under...Something yuck. If I wanted to use the power cord, not only did I have to go get it, but it needed cleaning as well. I'm sure I could find something better to do.

So, basically I had no computer for week. If I wanted to use the internet, I had to drive at least ten minutes to the town library, or twenty minutes to University (which was the preferable option). Or ask my family members very nicely if I could use their computers.

Since anything was preferable than that, on the days that I wasn't working or at Uni; I was in town, I was reading books, I was doing housework, I was gardening. I was exercising. I got things done.

As cliché as it sounds; Computers really do ruin your life if you let them. Just ask John Connor.

going to bed exhausted despite having done nothing.

Waking up at noon is also a (probably related) problem. Or, at least, non-functional unless you have a really good reason, since plenty of people wake up at noon after being on 14 hour long shifts and getting home at 3am. An easy way to wake up, is to set your alarm at a reasonable time (6:00am for me. But, I'm sure most people do alright with 7:00am), and then put your clock/alarm device somewhere where you actually have to physically get up to turn it off.
Once your body starts moving, it doesn't like going back to sleep.

Check your diet? Better yet, now that you've quit your computer (because you are going to, right?) you can go exercise. The (Australian) government recommends 30 minutes a day. Since that's the minimum, and lazy people who like to wake up at noon usually only do the minimum; I recommend 90 minutes, five days a week.
That should get you sufficiently tired (especially if you're not used to it), it'll keep you healthy, and, if your body knows what it's doing; It'll start craving foods that it needs to keep up the regime.
Sitting on the computer requires next to no energy; So, chances are all's your body does is require the ingredients to stay awake for a minimal amount of time (glucose/sugar) and that's it, and once the sugar runs out, it's off to bed.

I hate myself for doing badly at the things I fail in, and when I do succeed, I can't shake the feeling that somehow I cheated and don't deserve to have done well.

That's extremely vague. But, essentially, you should feel bad for failing. Most people do. The simplest answer to failing, is to try again and not fail. Find out where you went wrong, how can you fix it? Fix it. Do it again. Succeed. Accomplish something. Feel good.

Most of all, I resent the fact that I am so good at hiding just how screwed up I am to anyone in my life that might be able to see that there is something wrong and help fix it. Day in and day out I lie and pretend that I am doing fine, then at night I log onto the web and spend my time venting and complaining to the group of people I know online.

That's...Not 'normal'. But definitely not unique. I, for one, believe in 'hiding who you are', especially if it's a negative image. The world doesn't like negative people. It's a sad fact, but, most people don't want to hear about depression, especially because (usually) it's not something they know how to deal with. Worse, is when it keeps getting thrust in their face.
I've lost one or two friends because I kept on harping on about how bad my life was; Fact is, they didn't want to hear it. They couldn't help, it made them feel bad. I made them feel bad. They thought it simpler just not to talk to me if I was going to 'be like that'.
Simply, there are people who you can talk to, and people you can't. It's not your fault.

Secondly, venting 'online' doesn't even compare with physically talking to someone in the same room. A microphone/headset makes online venting marginally better, but still, you're better off finding your best friend in real life, and talking to them.

If you don't have a friend (sadly, it happens), go talk to a professional.

I feel like such a burden to the people that care about me, and I don't feel like I ever give anything back.

That's probably (definitely) not true. And unless the words "Stop talking to me about all your crap!" or something to that effect are actually spoken, then your friends are still your friends. And probably want what's best for you. And if they really are your friends, they don't want anything in return. Better yet, straight-out ask them.

At the same time, there are times when I feel almost angry at the people who try to comfort me, because deep down, no matter how much I hate feeling like this, I feel like it is my fault that I am depressed, and that I deserve to be like this. That I must have done something and this is my punishment for it.

...Yep. Time to see a professional. There are somethings that 'talking to your friends' doesn't fix. And the (emphasised by me) keywords and sentences above are not some of the things your friends - nor we in the Playground - can fix.

More than anything else; If what you're doing doesn't make you happy, then stop doing what you're doing and try something else.

[V'icternus]

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Just gonna post about a paragraph of an update, gonna keep it short for ince...
Okay, well, for anyone interested, my school issues have recently become less important, as I'm finally up to date. Now I only have to deal with all the usual problems that exist in my life. (For those of you not keeping track since the last thread, that's still a lot).

My brother's still... well, my brother. My parents haven't changed a bit, the dogs are annoying as hell, and despite the fact that I was the one fully opposed to getting both dog #1 and #2, I'm still expected to put in more than my share of work for them.

And then, you know, the rest, which I wont get into here as a rant on my bizzare emotional state would be long-winded and in the end, anyone who wanted to know could find out elsewhere anyway...

But yeah, anyway, long story short, I'm back to "normal" levels of stress, anxiety and generally low on the depression scale for the time being. THis probably has a lot to do with the D&D session I just got back from, but the school thing is also a big help to my mental state.
Well, this post is already longer than I thought it would be, so I'll stop now.

Oh, and Jacklu? I can't exactly help, but I can relate. The only advice I can offer is to listen to Cheesegear there... he seems to have some good ideas that I would apply to my own life if, well... if I actually wanted to "fix" it. And really, I doubt you are as far gone as me into the depths of not caring... So you really should try to fix things in your life. Get away from the internet at all costs, and screens in general should be avoided, at least as prime time-uses. If you don't think you can do it, ust do it anyway and prove that you can.

...I need to find a way to make my "one paragraph" posts stop lasting so damn long...

[almyki]

WARNINGWARNINGWARNING Textwall of ridiculously annoying proportions coming... MY BAD. If you don't want to bother, don't worry, I'll understand, my forum etiquette probably sucks worse than yours anyway =P . Also horribly sorry if I make any rude statements or assumptions (*tactless*) , but I was hoping I could help. Primarily because we are kin spirits, and I feel a deep understanding connection here XD . And voodoo magic is definitely not involved!

I say this because reading your post I noticed that almost everything you felt, I have felt as well, when I had been in middle school. I've gotten over it now and am happy and confident in myself, but I still remember what it was like, and hope to maybe help with a bit of... er... pep talk? Uh... advice? What to call it...? My problem was 'being teased' while yours is 'not going anywhere', so there will obviously be some discrepancies (ex. I was probably far angrier than you, who seems more just depressed), but hopefully I won't make many gruesome mistakes =3 .

@Jacklu

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I've been struggling with a pretty heavy depression for the last few months and it is killing me. Not literally, but sometimes it might as well be. I am increasingly resentful of myself for being as depressed as I am all the time. My life is really good, all things considered. I sometimes wish there was something medically wrong with me, just so I could feel justified for feeling as bad as I do. I hate myself for doing badly at the things I fail in, and when I do succeed, I can't shake the feeling that somehow I cheated and don't deserve to have done well.

The truth is, at least I believe, that you don't have to have some 'mental disease' or a terrible home life to be justifiably depressed or miserable. It's not like you want to be, nobody actually sincerely wants to be unhappy with their lives. If you convince yourself that maybe you're just 'dramatically miserable' because your subconscious is a pathetic attention-seeking and ungrateful drama queen, and that you should really be able to get over stuff like this? It's Not True. If you haven't thought that, then that's even better XD . But the point is, trust me, you can't get this 'sad' without there being a serious factor outside of yourself; it's just not possible short of some actual mental issue.

It's... well, I've never studied psychology, but it's a mechanism that my own mind pulled a lot when I was like this, which I personally branded 'emotional rationalization' :needs a better term: . Your feelings are strong, and to anybody else they seem unreasonable and self-inflicting (and most people probably can't even wrap their heads around why you'd feel that way), but you understand, perfectly well, and can rationalize your thoughts. You do this because you need to have a reason why you're so upset. These feelings that bother you so much, they have to have some sort of cause, right? You want to know why is this happening to me, and the best reason you can come up with is that internal karmic logic that it must be because I deserve it.

Others may say "You should never feel like you're worthless, or you're less worthy than other people, you can do whatever you want with yourself", but you've got all day, and all night, to think about exactly why they're wrong, all the reasons why, logically, you could actually be just as worthless or hopeless as you feel. You're surrounded by the reasons (YOU never go out, don't do things, ME isolated, disliked by all, am an annoying prat), by the feelings (Disgusted with every selfish thought, every lack of will, if only people could see inside your head all your pettiness, they'd understand why you feel like that. You kind of deserve it, don't you?), all this constant proof, piles and piles of it, just prove exactly how wrong their advice is, how mislead about you they are. They just don't understand, right? Logically, and emotionally, yours is a sound argument stubbing out the basic encouragements of the people around you.

You probably don't think and feel these sorts of things constantly, I sure as hell didn't, but does it come up often enough in your thoughts? These sorts of feelings, for me, were brooding, self-rationalizing, attempts to self-correct at least in my mind all the 'bad thoughts' that I 'had no right to feel', and they had lots of time to slowly simmer and soak.

It's Not True either. The reason you feel bad is because you DO FEEL BAD, not for any petty or selfish or disgusting reason. There is no need to make yourself feel worse by asking yourself if you even deserve to complain about being unhappy, or if you're just ungrateful and mopey.

Well... I got the feeling that, from what I read, our situations on the emotional level were similar enough that I could take a guess at what else you might be feeling. Again, if you don't know what I'm talking about, that's wicked, you're not as much of a brooder as me (even when I'm not depressed, I have a super-brooder personality, sooo XD ) . But in case you do, well, I hoped that maybe by explaining exactly what you're feeling and telling you that other people have felt it before would help? All those darkest inner thoughts, you probably don't tell others, the ones you are most ashamed of thinking. I've probably thought a lot of them too (and others) . You may still not be able to quite 'See' what I'm saying, as in go 'Oh, yeah, you know she's totally right, I shouldn't think or feel like that anymore!', it may be kind of hard to tell yourself that without feeling... Guilty somehow, but as you get happier overall and look back, you realize how different it is and just how unfair you were with yourself. But, anyway, yeah, you're not alone XD .

I never seem to be accomplishing anything aside from getting up in the morning (and by morning, I mean no earlier than noon over the last two months), wasting my day on the computer, and going to bed exhausted despite having done nothing.

Throughout all of last summer, I woke up at noon too XD . Sometimes an hour later, sometimes an hour earlier, but I love sleep, so I laze in bed a lot. But anyway, putting aside my similarly bad habits (I don't do much other than fiddle with the laptop and watch TV either), some of the advice Cheesegear gave sounds like it'd be a good idea. Change is HARD, I know because I suck so much at it myself, but trying is always good!

Maybe try getting interested in various things, even in passing. The internet is great for that. Well, I'm particularly good at picking up random interests (from learning Korean, to Sign Language, to Gothic Lolita clothes to gardening to henna tattoos, all of which I have failed at spectacularly =P ), but maybe you are too? There are lots of fun random hobbies and things you could take interest in and try out. Learning new things in the process is a good plus, and makes you feel like you achieved something.

If you don't know how to play chess, you can teach yourself and play online against a free chess AI, or learn Go, or Checkers, or Solitaire, other games. Maybe starting a collection would be fun (I collect stickers, stuffed animals, pencils, temp tattoos, and various other JUNK) . You're into D&D since you're on this forum, maybe do something related to that (start writing a D&D-related story, try homebrewing random cool junk, etc.).

Getting away from the computer can be really good for you (I wish I could drag myself away, graaah XD ), but if you find you can't bring yourself to do it, or if it doesn't seem to help after trying for a while (especially if all your friends are online), there are some things to try doing on a computer that can still be productive. Even just spending a day clicking through a ton of Wikipedia articles could be interesting and good for you (especially if they all relate to a good topic) . If you have a textbook on a subject you're interested in, or something like that (I have an Environmental Science book), you could try reading it and then taking notes on your computer. What have you.

I got pet rats because of cool stuff I read online (they are very fuzzy and cute) , maybe consider getting a pet if you like animals? I'm told they can be quite therapeutic. Or plants. I'm good at personifying animals and even inanimate objects, and talk to them, so they may be good venting material (then again, I talk aloud to myself on a regular basis... :S ) .

Most of all, I resent the fact that I am so good at hiding just how screwed up I am to anyone in my life that might be able to see that there is something wrong and help fix it. Day in and day out I lie and pretend that I am doing fine, then at night I log onto the web and spend my time venting and complaining to the group of people I know online. I feel like such a burden to the people that care about me, and I don't feel like I ever give anything back.

I did similarly, with my family (the only people I could consider 'close' at the time) . Home life was fine, I was typically content and happy (ish) , and I would never tell them about any of the bad things that happen at school, and I most especially kept all my darkest thoughts from them, even though I might think about it all day and just want to talk to them about it, and I knew that they would want to know and help me with it. But it's all so very personal and not their burden, and then it feels like it's not as important as you thought it was, to go so far as bugging them about your issues, right? I didn't have the internet then, but I did have my stuffed animals (*cough* and imaginary friends... I was an imaginative child... ^^; ) to pour my feelings into.

But, I'm not sure how best to give advice on this, because I think no matter what, you'll find it difficult to open up and 'drop your burdens on their shoulders'. And it is just a plain truth that, even though your loved ones may care and not push you away or anything, it will worry them and make them upset. Well, it's not good to constantly talk about stuff like that, and I think it's best to normally put up a good front 'as per usual', but when certain things come up that really makes you feel in a particular need to talk to someone (personal example, I wish I'd talked to my parents when my classroom made fun of me, it would have helped), they will be there for you.

But also, forgetting about your problems and pretending it's OK may be good sometimes. Spending time with friends and family and just enjoying their company can do wonders to your mood, and make you forget all about that feeling for the duration. It made me feel less bad about myself (being surrounded by people who enjoy your company) overall. Friends can help wonders, when in that way, but they flounder when directly confronted (Cheesegear is right, they feel as lost as you on how to help) . Then again, my issue was directly connected with socialization (or lack thereof), so perhaps it doesn't apply as well to you.

Being a burden to your loved ones... I know how that feels. That 'emotional rationalization' sure did 'wonders' here too. Well, rest assured, that when you start to think "I should have never been born" with an utmost deadpan sincerity fueled with a self-made laundry list of all the reasons of exactly why that's true, your thoughts definitely aren't *quite* as rational as you think they are. I don't think you're at that point yet (I'm really hoping not, that's kind of a sucky way to think, avoid at all costs), and try to stay away from that point. Because that is just not fair to you, you are a human being that deserves better than that regardless of what 'little you do' or how much 'trouble you give'. You are not a bad person, or at the very least I can say that you are far less bad than you give yourself credit for.

There can be all sorts of rationalizations that seem to make just so much gosh-darned sense here, I know, and that's just stuff that's really hard for me to be able to refute believably, but... that's just about true of everyone. Anybody has the capacity to feel bad for the burden they are, and have done enough or have enough rational reasons to be able to back up their feeling just as well as you. If they were that sad. If they needed a reason to wonder about it in the first place. It is what many young children feel when their parents argue or have difficulties taking care of them, but they don't deserve to feel like burdens either.

Even as I am writing this I can't help admonishing myself for it and feeling like this is nothing more than a self-centered cry for sympathy and attention. At the same time, there are times when I feel almost angry at the people who try to comfort me, because deep down, no matter how much I hate feeling like this, I feel like it is my fault that I am depressed, and that I deserve to be like this. That I must have done something and this is my punishment for it.

Already covered all this above, would hate to start sounding even more repetitive than I already naturally do =P . We really are kin spirits ^^; .

But, to sum up this ridiculous ranty post full of gross assumptions and improper bounciness, I'll say that I got over all this sadness quite a while back (3-4ish years?), and it's a faded memory now. It is possible for you to be happy, as 'stuck' as it may seem right now. Personally, my remedy for 'happiness' was people. I was the isolated 'Acceptable Target' by virtually every person in my school, but it only required me to gain a couple friends that would talk with me that made me start getting over my feelings. I never really talked to them about how I felt inside, they don't know that I hated myself or any of that, and they didn't have to. Just having a couple people there helped me pull myself up and feel less worthless. After all, I found my friends precious and valuable, and their opinions, so if they liked me and thought I was a nice friend, maybe I'm not so bad?

It was not a so conscious and sudden a thought though. The divorce between my anger and self-hate and my more natural hyper positivity (as I am now and was as a young kid) was a long, drawn-out process with no real leaps or sudden epiphanies. It is, after all, a state of mind, something that has hold over your every thought and emotion. Rather than going up a set of stairs or a ladder, it was more like inching up a slope, if that makes sense. It'll probably be similar for you? If you can change your life drastically for the better, that's so great, I'm pretty sure I've heard of that happening to people before. But it can be good to know that it's also possible to change yourself a little at a time. (Then again, I've always been super-slow with everything XD ) .

Also, while there may be merit to the advice of 'seeing a professional' from Cheesegear, personally I have been more... cautious of such avenues. If you want that, feel OK with the idea of getting that, then it could be a good idea. But if you're like me and it just makes you feel uncomfortable and worse, and perhaps somewhat invading to even think about talking to a stranger about these things, it may do more harm than good. Psychologists are not miracle workers, and I get the feeling that they can help best with the people who actually want to be there. It is a big decision, I think, and not one to be taken lightly. They could help a lot, especially since they are probably familiar with people like you, your feelings, and your situation, and may give you a feeling of stability or safety, and be a good outlet. But it is not the only way, so don't feel that it is if you really don't want it. Definitely something to think about.

<33333 ali

[V'icternus]

That is one huge wall-O-text...

I'll be sure to read through that when I have some time.

[lord of kobolds]

Still here.

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Well, my week has been terrible. Let's list the 4 worst things that happened this week. 2 have to do with family, and 2 have to do with work.

#1 I went to my therapist, who is supposed to be helping us with the contract. For the past couple of months, she had been getting news of my situation from my dad, the administrators at my school, and the hospital. She did not hear anything from me, and therefor assumed that what they said was the whole story. When I tried to talk to her, she said TO MY FACE that I was wrong, that I am not actually in a bad position, that what I am going through is normal for all teenagers (because spending 2 weeks in the hospital for depression is just part of growing up, of course). She looked at the contract, and said that nothing in it was difficult. When I explained that, while they might come easily to other people, it is a struggle for me, she said that was not the case Because, naturally, she knows how I feel better than I do. Furthermore, I mentioned the forums in passing, and she started trying to get me to tell her what website it is on. I am not going to tell her that, because this is the one place where I can discuss things without fear of being judged based on what I say.

#2 I work at a day camp, working as a camp counselor for toddlers whose parents have to work. I love this job, it is therapeautic, and I don't feel like I'm even "working", because it is something that I enjoy doing. Unfortunately, Monday-Wednesday, I was put in the preschool group. This may not sound so bad, but all of the regular lead counselors for preschool were not there, and I was the counselor who had been working at this camp the longest. Worse, there were 2 counselors who could not get along at all. The environment was stressful, and I finally had to go to the head of camp and request to be sent back to the toddlers, because I could not handle the tension. That brings me to point #3

#3 The head of camp had something she already wanted to discuss with me. Apparently, some of the other counselors were complaining that I was getting the kids too excited. This may be true, but if so, it's only because they were so surprised to have a counselor actually INTERACT with them. Most of the counselors will just stand aside and watch. That's not childcare, that's called loitering. Furthermore, a parent walked in as I was tickling a child, and complained because the child "doesn't like to be touched". Now, this is Bull**** because the child in question came up to me as I was playing with another child, and ASKED to play with me.

#4 My grandmother died yesterday. She had been sick for a while, but it still came as a blow. Now, I will admit that I did not see her much (3-4 times a year), but I did love her. What really has me upset, though, is that I can't seem to make myself feel sad about it. I know I should be crying, but with everything else that is going on, I just can't feel anything. I'm worrying that I'm just developing a sort of callus on my soul, so that I just don't feel as bad about things.

[CrimsonAngel]

Why are most counselors sullen and depressing?

[Katrascythe]

Still here.

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Well, my week has been terrible. Let's list the 4 worst things that happened this week. 2 have to do with family, and 2 have to do with work.

#1 I went to my therapist, who is supposed to be helping us with the contract. For the past couple of months, she had been getting news of my situation from my dad, the administrators at my school, and the hospital. She did not hear anything from me, and therefor assumed that what they said was the whole story. When I tried to talk to her, she said TO MY FACE that I was wrong, that I am not actually in a bad position, that what I am going through is normal for all teenagers (because spending 2 weeks in the hospital for depression is just part of growing up, of course). She looked at the contract, and said that nothing in it was difficult. When I explained that, while they might come easily to other people, it is a struggle for me, she said that was not the case Because, naturally, she knows how I feel better than I do. Furthermore, I mentioned the forums in passing, and she started trying to get me to tell her what website it is on. I am not going to tell her that, because this is the one place where I can discuss things without fear of being judged based on what I say.

#2 I work at a day camp, working as a camp counselor for toddlers whose parents have to work. I love this job, it is therapeautic, and I don't feel like I'm even "working", because it is something that I enjoy doing. Unfortunately, Monday-Wednesday, I was put in the preschool group. This may not sound so bad, but all of the regular lead counselors for preschool were not there, and I was the counselor who had been working at this camp the longest. Worse, there were 2 counselors who could not get along at all. The environment was stressful, and I finally had to go to the head of camp and request to be sent back to the toddlers, because I could not handle the tension. That brings me to point #3

#3 The head of camp had something she already wanted to discuss with me. Apparently, some of the other counselors were complaining that I was getting the kids too excited. This may be true, but if so, it's only because they were so surprised to have a counselor actually INTERACT with them. Most of the counselors will just stand aside and watch. That's not childcare, that's called loitering. Furthermore, a parent walked in as I was tickling a child, and complained because the child "doesn't like to be touched". Now, this is Bull**** because the child in question came up to me as I was playing with another child, and ASKED to play with me.

#4 My grandmother died yesterday. She had been sick for a while, but it still came as a blow. Now, I will admit that I did not see her much (3-4 times a year), but I did love her. What really has me upset, though, is that I can't seem to make myself feel sad about it. I know I should be crying, but with everything else that is going on, I just can't feel anything. I'm worrying that I'm just developing a sort of callus on my soul, so that I just don't feel as bad about things.

I'm starting at point 4

I'm really sorry to hear that your grandmother died. No matter how much you understand that it's going to happen there's really nothing that you can do to be prepared for the moment you're told. When my grandfather died (a week before I turned 11) I was incapable of crying. Everything was numb till after the funeral. I didn't want to see or interact with anyone.

With two and three I'm at a loss for what to say. I'd probably try to find somewhere else I could work that also has little kids. I'd much rather work in an active environment with little kids than just sit there and leave them to their own devices. Also, parents today are anal retentive about their kids. They're too afraid their precious little snowflakes will get hurt. Little kids will do different things with different people and I guess that parent just didn't get it.

1. Has your counselor always been like that? That's pretty messed up for what my experiences with various counselors have been. Unless them being that shocking is to make you try something? *shrugs* I'm not a psych major, that's for sure. Do you think that she'll be able to figure out which forums by virtue of you mentioning GiantITP before?

[KataraAltinaII]

@ Jacklu

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You've got 'Computerized Depression', or, Lazy Man's Syndrome; ...You're not feeling like you're accomplishing anything...Because you aren't. Sadly.

You wrote it yourself. You're wasting your days. You know the problem.

I'll second that. it's why I cut back a little on my computer time. granted, I still do it a lot, but there were times when I'd just go take a walk. you' be surprised what it can do for you.

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Just gonna post about a paragraph of an update, gonna keep it short for ince...
Okay, well, for anyone interested, my school issues have recently become less important, as I'm finally up to date. Now I only have to deal with all the usual problems that exist in my life. (For those of you not keeping track since the last thread, that's still a lot).

My brother's still... well, my brother. My parents haven't changed a bit, the dogs are annoying as hell, and despite the fact that I was the one fully opposed to getting both dog #1 and #2, I'm still expected to put in more than my share of work for them.

And then, you know, the rest, which I wont get into here as a rant on my bizzare emotional state would be long-winded and in the end, anyone who wanted to know could find out elsewhere anyway...

But yeah, anyway, long story short, I'm back to "normal" levels of stress, anxiety and generally low on the depression scale for the time being. THis probably has a lot to do with the D&D session I just got back from, but the school thing is also a big help to my mental state.
Well, this post is already longer than I thought it would be, so I'll stop now.

Oh, and Jacklu? I can't exactly help, but I can relate. The only advice I can offer is to listen to Cheesegear there... he seems to have some good ideas that I would apply to my own life if, well... if I actually wanted to "fix" it. And really, I doubt you are as far gone as me into the depths of not caring... So you really should try to fix things in your life. Get away from the internet at all costs, and screens in general should be avoided, at least as prime time-uses. If you don't think you can do it, ust do it anyway and prove that you can.

...I need to find a way to make my "one paragraph" posts stop lasting so damn long...

that sounds a lot like me. I'm sort of in the realm of "I raelly don't give a damn, and so oh wellz for me.

all in all though, when I feel bored and depressed, and there's nothing to cheer me up, I just leave the house. I never have a destination in mind, I just sort of go wherever I feel like going at the time. often times it's just a trip in a big circle, but occasionally I stop and get something to eat.

it's a very simple concept that can be applied to both of these scenarios I believe. if people are annoying you, find a way to get away from them. And if people "don't let" you go out on a walk [or take a bike if you have one. I sometimes do] then ultimately, it's your own grave being dug, as people will walk all over you, and it means you have no backbone.

that aside, getting out of the house is ultimately, something to do. take an MP3 player if you want to feel a certain way during this little outing. for me, it just gives me time to stop and think about anything, ranging from things I've done, things I've screw up, to smaller, more trivial things like food I've eaten and characters that I've owned with in Super Smash Bros. Melee. [Zelda, if anyone is interested]

that's about the extent of my advice for today. Generally, when I come into this thread, I'm more looking for things to answer, not things to complain about, 'coz I generally buck up.

but that's not the point. if you want the summarized version of my rant, it's basically this:

"take a walk by yourself, jsut to get out of the house"

[Cheesegear]

"take a walk by yourself, just to get out of the house"

My favourite place is the park. It's where I go to feed the ducks - among other critters - whenever I'm stressed out after work or I can't deal with the people I live with (my family ) at any given point (providing it's not after-dark).

Well, it's actually my second-favourite, the first being my room. But, that's unhealthy and I'm fully aware of that.

If you don't have a car, just walk up and down your street - for exercise as well. See what you can see, maybe even meet your neighbours? As I've said previously, I walk up and down my (rather hill-y - exercise is good for you!) street for 90 minutes day, five days a week. I've met just about everyone on my 4km (~2.5mi) street, and I get a smile every time someone waves at me from their car.

[V'icternus]

that sounds a lot like me. I'm sort of in the realm of "I raelly don't give a damn, and so oh wellz for me.

all in all though, when I feel bored and depressed, and there's nothing to cheer me up, I just leave the house. I never have a destination in mind, I just sort of go wherever I feel like going at the time. often times it's just a trip in a big circle, but occasionally I stop and get something to eat.

it's a very simple concept that can be applied to both of these scenarios I believe. if people are annoying you, find a way to get away from them. And if people "don't let" you go out on a walk [or take a bike if you have one. I sometimes do] then ultimately, it's your own grave being dug, as people will walk all over you, and it means you have no backbone.

that aside, getting out of the house is ultimately, something to do. take an MP3 player if you want to feel a certain way during this little outing. for me, it just gives me time to stop and think about anything, ranging from things I've done, things I've screw up, to smaller, more trivial things like food I've eaten and characters that I've owned with in Super Smash Bros. Melee. [Zelda, if anyone is interested]

that's about the extent of my advice for today. Generally, when I come into this thread, I'm more looking for things to answer, not things to complain about, 'coz I generally buck up.

but that's not the point. if you want the summarized version of my rant, it's basically this:

"take a walk by yourself, jsut to get out of the house"

...You're telling me you still don't know how much I don't like random excercise? How long have you known me, over two years now?

Well, anyway, I'm actually fine with where I am now.

[KataraAltinaII]

...You're telling me you still don't know how much I don't like random excercise? How long have you known me, over two years now?

Well, anyway, I'm actually fine with where I am now.

hey, neither do I. it's called getting out of your comfort zone for once though.

besides, if you think walking is a "difficult exercise" [OMG I spelled it right!] then you're a pansy.

walking is only an exercise if you make it. I don't set a pace or anything when I walk. I just walk at a comfortable stride, and it never wears me out.

[V'icternus]

hey, neither do I. it's called getting out of your comfort zone for once though.

besides, if you think walking is a "difficult exercise" [OMG I spelled it right!] then you're a pansy.

walking is only an exercise if you make it. I don't set a pace or anything when I walk. I just walk at a comfortable stride, and it never wears me out.

I only choose walk when I have somewhere to go.

I rarely have anywhere to go.

Besides, why get out of my comfort zone? I'm comfortable here. And I have no reason to leave. I haev a room to shut myself in, and if I want exercise, I have a fully functional bike that I can use.

(Also, walking is never difficult, unless, you know, injuries, tiredness or something is involved.)

[KataraAltinaII]

I only choose walk when I have somewhere to go.

I rarely have anywhere to go.

Besides, why get out of my comfort zone? I'm comfortable here. And I have no reason to leave. I haev a room to shut myself in, and if I want exercise, I have a fully functional bike that I can use.

(Also, walking is never difficult, unless, you know, injuries, tiredness or something is involved.)

if you're 'comfortable', then why do you have so many complaints?

and yeah, I may have forgotten to mention it, but randomly taking your bike somewhere is a good alternative for walking. I sometimes do that, depending on if I have a good bike handy or not.

[V'icternus]

if you're 'comfortable', then why do you have so many complaints?

Because, I'm comfortable with the ammount of complaints I have. Most of the really bad ones are gone, and now I'm left with the usual stuff...
And I'm not here to whine about the unchangeable facts of my life, I just felt like talking about my various problems, which also turns out to be a good way to "get into the thread" so to speak, which allows me to potentially lend credible advice to others. (Because who takes depression advice from people who don't have problems? You can't relate, so it isn't as effective). That's one of the many, many reasons Bor is so good at advice giving.

And as for recently, I was just updating, just in case anyone cared after seeign my main post on the previous thread.