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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Belial_the_Leveler's Avatar

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    Default Break this class

    OK, here's a base class I made some time ago, something between a caster and a warlock. I would like answers to the following questions;

    1) Can the class be more powerful than a straight wizard or sorceror in combat? Assume good spell combos for the wizard or sorceror.
    2) How about a cleric or druid?
    3) How does the class compare to ToB classes power-wise?
    4) Are there any prestige class and/or feat choices that can break the class?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Belial_the_Leveler View Post
    Wizards learn to access the infinite magical potential of the world around them and store, through study and preparation, portions of that ambient energy in their own minds to be later unleashed in the form of powerful preconstructed spells.
    Warlocks have a permanent link with the ambient power of the Cosmos through their extraplanar heritage. This flow of power strengthens them in mind and soul both, making them supernaturally resilient and enabling them to constantly shape and unleash blasts of power as easily as they can breathe.

    Since the meeting of those two different magical disciplines, many individuals have sought to walk down both paths, learning arcane power and shaping eldritch energies. For generations, those individuals had to study first each separate path on its own before mastering them and being able to join them, study them as one. For a long time, noone had the innate talent of combining both paths in one at the very beginning. But from the schools that pursued those paths and the rare merging of the bloodlines of warlock and wizard were born individuals that did just that, manifesting a new talent that was the merging of the two. Like their wizard ancestors, they could learn and cast arcane spells while also inheriting the ability to invoke eldritch energies from warlocks in the bloodline. Unlike their wizard ancestors, they didn't store those energies in advance when resting but rather slowly gathered them from the world around them at all times like warlocks. Also unlike their warlock ancestors, the extra power required to sustain arcane spellcasting did not go into strengthening their physical bodies and additionally taxed them as well, resulting into physically weaker individuals with great supernatural power. Those new wielders of arcane energy were called magisters.

    Magister
    {table=head]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

    1st|
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +2
    |Eldritch Blast 1d6, Cantrips, least invocation, Scorn the Material

    2nd|
    +1
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +3
    |1st level spells, least invocation

    3rd|
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +3
    |Eldritch Blast 2d6, Arcane Defence

    4th|
    +2
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |2nd level spells, least invocation

    5th|
    +2
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |Eldritch Blast 3d6, sustain dweomer 1

    6th|
    +3
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    |3rd level spells, lesser invocation

    7th|
    +3
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    |Eldritch Blast 4d6, lesser invocation

    8th|
    +4
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +6
    |4th level spells, Arcane Shield

    9th|
    +4
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +6
    |Eldritch Blast 5d6, lesser invocation

    10th|
    +5
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +7
    |5th level spells, sustain dweomer 2

    11th|
    +5
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +7
    |Eldritch Blast 6d6, greater invocation

    12th|
    +6/+1
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +8
    |6th level spells, greater invocation

    13th|
    +6/+1
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +8
    |Eldritch Blast 7d6, Spell Resistance

    14th|
    +7/+2
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +9
    |7th level spells, greater invocation

    15th|
    +7/+2
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |
    +9
    |Eldritch Blast 8d6, sustain dweomer 3

    16th|
    +8/+3
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |
    +10
    |8th level spells, dark invocation

    17th|
    +8/+3
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |
    +10
    |Eldritch Blast 9d6, sustain dweomer 4

    18th|
    +9/+4
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |
    +11
    |9th level spells, dark invocation

    19th|
    +9/+4
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |
    +11
    |Eldritch Blast 10d6, sustain dweomer 5

    20th|
    +10/+5
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |
    +12
    |Delay Reduction, dark invocation [/table]

    HD: d4, 2 skill points/level. Skills from both warlock and wizard list as class skills.

    Attack Bonus: Use the indicated attack bonus for everything except Eldritch Blast and ranged touch spells. In these occasions, use the warlock attack bonus instead.

    Proficiencies: Magisters are proficient with all simple weapons and light armor.

    Eldritch Blast: Magisters can create Eldritch Blasts like warlocks can. However, their Eldritch Blasts are slightly stronger than those of warlocks as indicated in the progression.

    Invocations: Just like warlocks, Magisters learn a set number of invocations from the warlock list. At each level an invocation is listed, the magister learns a new invocation of the indicated level.

    Spellcasting: Magisters can learn and cast arcane spells. At every odd level, they can access spells of the indicated level and automatically learn a single spell of that level. They must learn further spells from scrolls up to a limit of 1 additional spell per spell level per point of intelligence modifier-those spells are added to their spells known. To cast a spell, they must have an intelligence of 10+the spell's level. Spell save DCs are based on charisma rather than intelligence. Spells known for a magister are those formulae commited to memory that can be easily accessed. A magister keeps a permanent record of all spells she has gathered in a spellbook. Though it is not required to record spells, a magister with a spellbook can alter their repository of spells known by exchanging one spell known for another of equal level from her spellbook. This process requires meditation for a number of days equal to the spell level to be exchanged.
    Unlike wizards, magisters neither memorise specific castings of spells nor require spell slots to cast their spells. They can cast all their spells known at will as a standard action by using their own innate energy. However, after a magister casts a spell she becomes mentally fatigued and cannot cast another spell for a number of rounds equal to the level of the spell cast. For example, a magister casting fireball cannot cast another spell for 3 rounds. A magister casting meteor swarm cannot cast another spell for 9 rounds. Magisters can cast cantrips and 1st level spells round after round since the delay is only 1 round. If a spell has a duration other than permanent or instantaneous, a magister has to sustain it subconciously. A magister can only sustain a single active spell at a time. Additional lasting spells either replace the previous spell or fail (magister's choice). Rendering the magister unconcious or otherwise helpless does not end the sustained spells but killing him does.
    Spells cast by Magisters do not require non-expensive material components (magisters are considered to have the eschew materials feat). They still require any material component costing more than 1 gp, focuses and XP components. Magister spells still have the standard spell failure penalties from wearing armor, including light armor, even though their eldritch blast and invocations ignore light armor spell failure. Magister spells work normally with metamagic feats-the delay time is simply increased instead of spell slot level-though a magister can't metamagic a spell beyond his maximum available spell level.

    Scorn the Material: Magisters focus exclusively on the supernatural. They not only receive little physical training but the energies flowing through them weaken their physical frame. Add only half the constitution modifier (round up) to a magister's hit points, to a minimum reduction of 1 HP per character level if the constitution modifier is 1 or less. This applies to all current and future HD, not only magister levels.

    Arcane Defence: Add a magister's charisma modifier as a bonus to all saving throws versus spells and spell-like effects. This bonus is capped by the magister's class level.

    Sustain Dweomer: Normally, a magister can only sustain one active spell at a time. Experienced magisters can sustain a number of additional spells at a time as indicated in the sustain dweomer progression.

    Arcane Shield: While young magisters become physically weaker from the strain of channeling massive amounts of eldritch power, experienced magisters gain a compensation: those same energies that physically weaken them protect them against magical damage. Arcane Shield adds the magister's charisma modifier to hit points per level. Those extra hit points only absorb hit point damage dealt by supernatural sources. All damage from spells, spell-like effects andsupernatural abilities is first dealt to Arcane Shield. Arcane Shield can be replenished normally by resting or magical healing (healing is converted to supernatural energy and transferred to the shield, resulting in the same HP regain) and abilities such as fast healing and regeneration apply. The heal skill and other methods of mundane healing do not apply.

    Spell Resistance: Powerful magisters can outright resist spells cast at them. At 13th level the magister gains a spell resistance score of 12+class level.

    Delay Reduction: At that level of mastery, a magister is faster at replenishing her magical energies. All delay times are reduced by 1 round.


    EPIC MAGISTER

    The epic magister is a master of arcane magics surpassed by none. While a wizard is still more powerful in the short run, the magister's lasting energies and higher versatility can eventually tip the scales in her favor. Wether the magister wields her magical might in the forefront of every cosmic struggle, develops epic spells in her study or pursues the crafting of artifacts, she stands beside other legends as an equal.


    Epic Magister
    {table=head]Level|Standard|Special

    21st|Eldritch Blast 11d6, 10th level spells|

    22nd|sustain dweomer 6|

    23rd|Eldritch Blast 12d6|

    24th|11th level spells|

    25th|Eldritch Blast 13d6|bonus feat

    26th|sustain dweomer 7|

    27th|Eldritch Blast 14d6, 12th level spells|

    28th|high arcana|

    29th|Eldritch Blast 15d6|

    30th|13th level spells|bonus feat

    31st|Eldritch Blast 16d6|

    32nd|sustain dweomer 8|

    33rd|Eldritch Blast 17d6, 14th level spells|

    34th|high arcana|

    35th|Eldritch Blast 18d6|bonus feat

    36th|15th level spells|

    37th|Eldritch Blast 10d6|

    38th|sustain dweomer 9|

    39th|Eldritch Blast 19d6, 16th level spells|

    40th|high arcana|bonus feat [/table]

    Invocations: The epic magister does not learn new invocations at epic levels-she is required to invest feats-but her eldritch blast continues to increase in power. The caster level is still equal to her class level.

    Spells: The epic magister continues to gain access to more powerful spell levels though at a slower rate. However, she does not gain new spells known and her delay time does not decrease unless she invests epic feats. In fact, delay times continue to increase with spell levels normally therefore a magister can only use her more powerful magics only once in a usual encounter.

    Sustain Dweomer: The epic magister can hold active more spells at a time as her power increases-though the rate of increase is half of that in nonepic levels.

    High Arcana: At 28th level and every 6 levels thereafter, the epic magister gains a high arcana as per the Archmage high arcanas. Magisters do not have spell slots-but a spell modified by one or more high arcanas has its delay time increased by 1. High Arcanas apply to invocations with no added cost provided they are compatible.

    Bonus feat: The epic magister gains a bonus feat every 5 levels in epic.

    Bonus feat list:
    Additional Magic Item Space, Augmented Alchemy, Craft Epic Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Epic Rod, Craft Epic Staff, Craft Epic Wondrous Item, Black Gate*, Delay Reduction, Efficient Item Creation, Eldritch Sculptor*, Energy Resistance, Epic Spellcasting, Epic Spell Penetration, Eldritch Fury*, Eldritch Holocaust*, Extended Lifespan, Fast Healing, Improved Combat Casting, Improved Spell Resistance, Improved Arcane Shield, Lord of All Essences*, Master of the Dark Flame*, Word of Power*, Scribe Epic Scroll, Lord of Darkness*, Superior Initiative.
    *epic invocation





    DESIGNER'S NOTES:

    For all those people crying out loud against the batman here is arcane magic without the brokenness of huge spell combos or going nova in high levels or getting only 2 spells per day at low levels. Magisters are stronger than standard casters at low levels while being weaker at the higher levels. They are physically weaker than the warlock in hit points, armor class and normal attack bonus (they're supposed to be casters) and even weaker than wizards due to Scorn the Material but they are considerably stronger in later levels in defences against magic.
    Yes, they can cast arcane spells at will. However, the delay time after casting prevents any attempts at going nova and overwhelming opponents in a round or two. A magister will pull off one, two at most, big spells during a fight while relying on her eldritch blast and invocations for attacks in other rounds.

    Magisters are DM-friendly. They can't go nova at high levels. They require a more even ability score spread than wizards so no overwhelming spell DCs. They only get 1 spell known automatically per level, allowing the DM to better control available spells (if you don't want celerity or shivering touch, don't put a scroll in the game and they can't learn them). They are difficult to powergame-their spell level access is slower than that of the wizards and their good abilities are at mid levels so taking a dip in another class hurts. Taking a dip in magister for easy access to low level abilities nets a large penalty from Scorn the Material so dipping in the class is not very effective. By having both invocations and spells, they don't have a prestige class very suitable to them, with the sole exception of eldritch disciple. Due to their limit of sustained spells, they can't overbuff like CoDzilla.

    On the other hand, they are also player-friendly. They have both invocations (cool) and arcane magic (also cool). They are more versatile than either wizard or warlock because they can do a wide range of spells, invocations, metamagic and item creation (cool) and they don't run out of magic (very cool). They are useful combat-wise where warlocks usually are not due to low damage output compared to everyone else (cool) but they don't outshine the other classes in high levels (cool-for the other players in the party).


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  2. - Top - End - #2
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Break this class

    Quote Originally Posted by Belial_the_Leveler View Post
    OK, here's a base class I made some time ago, something between a caster and a warlock. I would like answers to the following questions;

    1) Can the class be more powerful than a straight wizard or sorceror in combat? Assume good spell combos for the wizard or sorceror.
    2) How about a cleric or druid?
    3) How does the class compare to ToB classes power-wise?
    4) Are there any prestige class and/or feat choices that can break the class?
    I'd say you've done a good job on tying them down to the action economy at later levels although they still have the squishy SoL cannon thing at lower one's but hey, 1-3 is just a crap shoot anyway.

    I'd peg it as somewhere just above ToB since it has Arcane magic but less speed than a Sorc, very playable and with your permission I'll nab it for a road test sometime since actual gameplay is the only real test and it can throw up all kinds of random crap.
    Last edited by mostlyharmful; 2009-07-04 at 04:02 AM.
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    Default Re: Break this class

    Yeah, you can use it for a playtest.

    The reason I was asking those balance questions was because I'm about to use it in my superhero game. I mean, Dr Fate totally fits the class.


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    Default Re: Break this class

    The at-will casting is abusable because the magister can simply cast a ton of spells outside of combat. Even if it's the same spell over and over, he can tag an army with it. Or at least use 3-4 low spell levels to tag every single party member with a good array of buffs. Or prep a 100 shrunken items, 100 explosive runes, or etc. I'd close this loophole.

    He also suffers from mystic-theurge syndrome. He can either cast or blast each round, but not both, so really he's not much stronger than someone who could do just one of these. It also encourages him to cast only his highest level spell, maybe 2nd highest, since he usually only gets 1 spell per combat. So his only use for lower level spells is the above mentioned abuse.
    Last edited by ericgrau; 2009-07-04 at 04:31 AM.
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    Default Re: Break this class

    My first thought is to make a Necropolitan, so you'd get 1d12 hp/level plus your Cha bonus. It could also qualify for and take some (physically) strong Gish classes such as Abjurant Champion and Eldritch Knight. I could see this being used for a spectacular Glaivelock build. As for your questions specifically:

    1. Possibly, though I really like the mechanics of the delay between spells. It looks similar to the Arcane Swordsage variant, which is broken. Especially outside of combat when round-by-round actions don't really matter it could be extremely powerful. For example, spells I'd get with an Arcane Swordsage such as Greater Mage Hand, Greater Dispel Magic, Disintegrate, Ruby Ray of Reversal, and Iceberg from Frostburn can make a huge difference outside of combat. If a character doesn't have to worry about running out of spells, they can just spam those all day and just brute force their way through noncombat challenges. Summon Monster spells would be extremely potent and really drag the game down, especially if the character opens every fight with the highest level summon monster spell they can cast. Maybe restrict it to certain schools of magic rather than allowing it access to the entire spell list.

    2. Its versatility is dependent on how many spells a given character knows, which could get extremely high. Basing its spell DCs and other abilities on Cha and spells known and highest level spells on Int is a good way of balancing that, but the character could always dump other stats. It can get the same spells as a Sorcerer, and can know more of them, so I'd put it no lower than Tier 2 for raw power, and possibly among the Tier 1 classes based on spell selection. If used in a strong Gish build it could make a capable combatant as well as a potent spellcaster, though it would lose many level-based abilities including how many buffs it could have going at a time.

    3. I think it's a fairly even match, though this class would require more thought for spell selection than the ToB classes need to be powerful, and this class has a lot more potential in the higher levels. Going back to what I said earlier, it's very similar to the Arcane Swordsage variant, though that can spam a given spell every other round regardless of level. I think the two are fairly even though, which means it's quite a bit more powerful than the other ToB classes including the standard Swordsage.

    4. Maybe a Glaivelock build, using the Eldritch Glaive invocation found in Dragon Magic. It depends on what "+1 level of existing spellcasting class" prestige classes would advance. I'd expect it to advance your spellcasting, invocations, and eldritch blast, just as they would for a Warlock or another spellcasting class. It looks like you're trying to use a low HD to balance its power, but Gish classes like Abjurant Champion and Eldritch Knight or even Divine Oracle can mitigate this, plus an undead race such as Necropolitan would be a decent choice. I'm also wondering if this class would be considered a 'spontaneous' spellcasting class, for prestige classes like Ultimate Magus. The Sustain Dweomer mechanic is a good reason to stay single-classed, but using a dual-progression prestige class can get around that by relying on traditional spellcasting for buffs and spamming offensive spells with this. Something like Magister 5/ Mindbender 1/ Ur-Priest 2/ Mystic Theurge 8/ whatever 4 would be decent, but somewhat MAD depending on how high you want Int to be.

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    Default Re: Break this class

    I'd just like to note, this should be in Homebrew.
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    Default Re: Break this class

    I really, really like this. The combination of a Wind Wall, Fly item or spell, and powerful and unlimited Eldritch blasts is still pretty powerful, but not anywhere near the same league as Batman. It still has the issue of the Magister starting the encounter with his highest-level save-or-die straight off the bat in EVERY fight...but at least it's considerably more difficult to spam them (though it wouldn't be too tough to spam something like Glitterdust).

    Right now all the Magister's spells are cast as a single standard action. What happens with a spell that requires more than a single standard action as written? Are you considering that a bonus for the Magister?

    Secondarily, what about casting at-will outside of combat? There's the potential to break things there (though it's not like we're talking a Wizard with a pocket dimension where he can get a day's rest/remem in 1 round of "real-time" to gain essentially unlimited spells per day).

    Regardless, I'd seriously consider replacing the Wizard in a d20 campaign with this wholesale. This takes some tremendous strides in creating a class that seems fun to play, reasonably balanced to the ToB stuff, possessing unique mechanics, and with clear RP opportunities.
    Last edited by Swordguy; 2009-07-04 at 04:45 AM.
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    Default Re: Break this class

    Quote Originally Posted by ericgrau View Post
    The at-will casting is abusable because the magister can simply cast a ton of spells outside of combat. Even if it's the same spell over and over, he can tag an army with it. Or at least use 3-4 low spell levels to tag every single party member with a good array of buffs. Or prep a 100 shrunken items, 100 explosive runes, or etc. I'd close this loophole.
    He can only maintain 5 spell effects at a time on level 19 (1 on level 1 - see Sustain Dweomer). This loophole does not exist, other than for instantaneous spells with permanent utility (I can't think of any off-hand; Creations, Runes, etc. all have duration and are thus subjected to this rule).


    Anyways, I like this class although I'm not crazy about combining Invocations & Arcane Casting into one base class. The ability to use Invocations to cover the "usual crap" with arcane magic as the "oh ****"-button seems to work out pretty well.
    Last edited by Eldariel; 2009-07-04 at 05:13 AM.
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    Default Re: Break this class

    I'd just like to note, this should be in Homebrew.
    I did post it there-about a year ago. This thread is to find ways to break the class, if possible.

    buffing out of combat:
    They can only maintain a very limited amount of active spells, barely enough to buff themselves (1 spell at levels 1-4, 2 at levels 5-8, 3 at levels 9-12, 4 at levels 13-16 and 5 at the very high levels). And if they use up the limit, every non-instantaneous spell they try to cast will not work. So, dominating an entire army? Not feasible. Summoning an entire army? Not feasible. Buffing the party to insane levels? Nope. And due to the delay, round/level buffs and summons are problematic to them. Summon XI at round 1. 1 summoned creature. Next summon IX is at round 10. 2 summons. Next summon IX is at round 20-when the first summon ends so again 2 summons. They can't build them up.

    starting with the highest-level spell each encounter:
    Sure. But that means waiting up to 9 rounds before casting again. A sorceror can open with the highest level spell 6 times a day AND keep casting other spells that are stronger than an Eldritch Blast or Invocation. Unless you have an uncommonly large number of encounters per day, it doesn't seem unbalanced to me.



    My first thought is to make a Necropolitan, so you'd get 1d12 hp/level plus your Cha bonus. It could also qualify for and take some (physically) strong Gish classes such as Abjurant Champion and Eldritch Knight. I could see this being used for a spectacular Glaivelock build.
    Yeah, undead are not taken into account. But Abjurant Champion and Eldritch Knight? They don't advance invocations or any of the magister's other special abilities.


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  10. - Top - End - #10
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    Default Re: Break this class

    Quote Originally Posted by Belial_the_Leveler View Post
    Yeah, undead are not taken into account. But Abjurant Champion and Eldritch Knight? They don't advance invocations or any of the magister's other special abilities.
    From Complete Arcane page 18, under "Warlocks and Prestige Classes"
    Warlocks benefit in a specific way from prestige classes that
    have “+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class” or “+1
    level of existing spellcasting class” as a level advancement
    benefit. A warlock taking levels in such a prestige class
    does not gain any of his class abilities, but he does gain
    an increased caster level when using his invocations and
    increased damage with his eldritch blast. Levels of prestige
    classes that provide +1 level of spellcasting effectively
    stack with the warlock’s level to determine his eldritch blast
    damage (treat his combined caster level as his warlock class
    level when looking at Table 1–1: The Warlock to determine
    eldritch blast damage) and his eldritch blast caster level (half
    his total caster level from his warlock levels and his levels
    in the prestige class that grant him an increased spellcasting
    level). A warlock also gains new invocations known at
    these prestige class levels as though he had gained a level
    in the warlock class.
    I was assuming that any "+1 level of existing class" prestige class would advance both spellcasting and invocations/EB. If this is not the case, then you should specify that in the class feature descriptions, because currently you include "like Warlocks" which would make it work as I described. There's also the Legacy Champion prestige class in Weapons of Legacy, which adds 8/10 levels of existing class features, which would make your last ten levels grant 3/4 BAB, d8 HP, and 4 skill points/level. Plus at level 22 you'd have Magister class features as though you were level 20 in the class, and it would continue on from there.

  11. - Top - End - #11

    Default Re: Break this class

    Breack this class? Just of the top of my head:

    Low levels: best class evar. Spamming sleep and color spray every round doesn't really gives anybody else a chance to shine. At 4th level you'll just be running around with the invisibility invocation spamming save or dies left and right. You can't lose to anything AND you can keep going all day.
    Gg, wizard, gg.


    Mid levels: teleport at will? Scry at will? Yes please. You become the ultimate scry and kill dude. The DM starts to have a chance as he can give anti inv items to all his monsters. But you really don't care because you can now spam even better save or dies. And again, teleport at will makes a lot of challenges moot.


    High levels: the wizard finally starts picking back on you, but the sorceror is still crying, because you're just spamming shapechance+your 3-4 favorite buffs and go around as a super monster all day long. Alternatively, spam gate as a auto-win button.

    Coclusion: It's really easy to breack. Easier than wizard, because you don't have to worry about juggling with dozes of spell slots or spell scribbing. All you have to do is scry, buff and kill, wich you can do every battle, no matter what decisions you made in earlier levels. Outside of combat he will outshine EVERYBODY else in the party because he doesn't only have a magic solution to every conceivable problem, he can freaking spam it at will. At all levels.


    Seriously, at will arcane magic just wasn't meant to be. Specially with infinite versatility.
    Last edited by Oslecamo; 2009-07-04 at 06:55 AM.

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    Well he does have the whole fatigue and time limit thing.
    but I don't know. A fireball every 18 seconds without even trying seems good to me. :)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    We took a thread that was supposed to be a diplomatic negotiation and first contact, and turned it into Darth Ghaeris' rampage...

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    @Oscelamo:
    1) Sleep is 1 round casting-it takes effect on the following round. Add 1 round of waiting and it is once per 3 rounds. So, essentially, 1 time per encounter.
    2) Color spray is very close range every 2 rounds. How many HP they got again? CON of 14 means 4 HP at first level. An arrow is 1d8+str.
    3) Scry and die doesn't work; if they teleport, they need to wait 5 whole rounds before they can cast spells.
    4) By 12th level, any spellcaster can call creatures with teleport and etherealness at will. If they're cheesy, they can also get astral projection via nightmare. So unless the DM bans teleports for everyone or can get challenges not overcomable by teleport, the game is busted anyway.
    5) At 19th level they can have shapechange and 4 more buffs up all day. That's the only problem I see with the class so far-and most casters can do the same.


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    Human Magister 9, Split Ray (human), Ocular Spell (1), Easy Metamagic: Split Ray (flaw), Easy Metamagic: Ocular Spell (flaw), Sanctum Spell (3), Twin Spell (6), Arcane Thesis: Enervation (9); Lesser Metamagic Rod of Maximize

    The setup: Ocular Split Ray Sanctum Twinned Enervation with Lesser Rod of Maximize, cast twice up to eight hours in advance. Doesn't necessarily count against your limited number of sustainable spells, but it doesn't matter if it does or not.
    Enervation is 4th level (4)
    Sanctum is +0 metamagic, makes it count as 3rd level (4)
    Split Ray is +2 metamagic, down to +1 for Easy Metamagic (5)
    Ocular spell is +2 metamagic, down to +1 for Easy Metamagic (6)
    Twin is +4 metamagic (10)
    Lesser Rod of Maximize is +0 metamagic (10)
    Arcane Thesis gives it +2 caster level and counts it as -5 level (5)

    Combat: first round your 9th level character spends a full round action to shoot four death rays, each of which deal eight negative levels on a successful ranged touch attack. Each ray can target a separate creature within 30 feet of any other target, or multiple rays can target a single creature. Hit four creatures each for eight negative levels, hit two creatures each for sixteen negative levels, hit one creature for thirty two negative levels, hit one creature for twenty four and one for eight negative levels, etc. at level nine. You can set that up as many times per day as you want. A Human Wizard 9 specialized in necromancy with focused specialist and Int 20+ can set that up twice/day, using all of his 5th level spells to do so.

    Edit: You can afford two lesser rods of maximize at that level, so you can do that three times total per day. Note that releasing those already-cast spells doesn't prevent you from casting more spells on the second round of combat, or from teleporting in and then immediately releasing ocular spells.
    Last edited by Biffoniacus_Furiou; 2009-07-04 at 08:22 AM.

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    Goddam wight production line. o_O
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    We took a thread that was supposed to be a diplomatic negotiation and first contact, and turned it into Darth Ghaeris' rampage...

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    I completely forgot about using Command Undead on a Slaymate from Libris Mortis. You could even put the thing in a straight jacket and hannibal lecter mask and stash it in a bag of holding until you need to cast your ocular spells, so it won't take up one of your sustainable spells to keep it commanded.

    Human Magister 9, Split Ray (human), Ocular Spell (1), Twin Spell (flaw), Sanctum Spell (flaw), Maximize Spell (3), Easy Metamagic: Maximize Spell (6), Arcane Thesis: Enervation (9), with a Slaymate stashed in a Bag of Holding.

    Enervation is 4th (4)
    Sanctum is +0 metamagic, counts it as 3rd (4)
    Split Ray is +2 metamagic, -1 for the Slaymate (5)
    Ocular Spell is +2 metamagic, -1 for the Slaymate (6)
    Maximize Spell is +3 metamagic, down to +2 for Easy Metamagic, -1 for the Slaymate (7)
    Twin Spell is +4 metamagic, -1 for the Slaymate (10)
    Arcane Thesis gives it +2 caster level and counts it as -5 level (5)

    That setup actually has no daily limit, since you no longer need the 3/day metamagic rods.


    Edit: By the way, Complete Arcane has a feat called Delay Spell that could be useful for scry-and-die. Maybe get it on a metamagic rod, it should cost the same as Maximize as both are +3 metamagics.
    Last edited by Biffoniacus_Furiou; 2009-07-04 at 08:39 AM.

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    Default Re: Break this class

    Already thought of that. Metamagic reducers reduce the spell slot level increase either when you memorise the spell or when you cast the spell. Magisters don't use spell slots at all-they use delay time. So metamagic reducers that reduce spell slot level can't be applied.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Belial_the_Leveler View Post
    Already thought of that. Metamagic reducers reduce the spell slot level increase either when you memorise the spell or when you cast the spell. Magisters don't use spell slots at all-they use delay time. So metamagic reducers that reduce spell slot level can't be applied.

    Magister spells work normally with metamagic feats-the delay time is simply increased instead of spell slot level-though a magister can't metamagic a spell beyond his maximum available spell level.
    Easy Metamagic affects the metamagic feat itself, so whenever that feat is applied to a spell in any way the number of levels it increases it by is treated as though it were printed as one lower. Arcane Thesis and the Slaymate probably won't work, but again you should make that clear in the class feature description. Regardless, a character could still set up Ocular Spells ahead of time, release them on the first round, then cast a spell on the second round.

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    I am guessing that the calculation used to determine the time they cannot cast spells for is based on the modified spell level if metamagic is used?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    We took a thread that was supposed to be a diplomatic negotiation and first contact, and turned it into Darth Ghaeris' rampage...

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    I beleive with a "please don't be silly with this" that goes assumed at all my games, (i make sure to say it to new players so it's only assumed after day 1) that it's fairly balanced. But then my group thinks the monks pretty cool, the leasership fet should be in every game, and wizards are weak (they like rushing in and hitting things.)

    If you really want to check this i'd say build it to fight a wizard and build a wizard to fight it at a few different levels, do the same with a barbarian, cleric, druid, and something that could get silly like a spell thief.

    also, this is the new hench person for the BBEG in my game.
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    For the Ocular Spell trick the delay doesn't matter, you cast two spells up to 8 hours in advance and hold them in your eyes. Long after the delay for casting them has passed, you can spend a full-round action to release both simultaneously, which does not count as casting a spell. You can release them during the delay after having cast another spell, or you can cast a spell on the round immediately after releasing them. The point of metamagic reducers is the part about not being able to increase it beyond your highest available spell level. A level 17 character can still probably throw out a 32-negative-level volley of rays on the first round of every encounter, then follow up by casting a 9th level spell on anything that survives, or open with a 9th level spell then 32-negative-levels on whatever survived.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou View Post
    For the Ocular Spell trick the delay doesn't matter, you cast two spells up to 8 hours in advance and hold them in your eyes. Long after the delay for casting them has passed, you can spend a full-round action to release both simultaneously, which does not count as casting a spell. You can release them during the delay after having cast another spell, or you can cast a spell on the round immediately after releasing them. The point of metamagic reducers is the part about not being able to increase it beyond your highest available spell level. A level 17 character can still probably throw out a 32-negative-level volley of rays on the first round of every encounter, then follow up by casting a 9th level spell on anything that survives, or open with a 9th level spell then 32-negative-levels on whatever survived.
    32 Negative Levels

    Timestop
    Utterdark blast
    Utterdark blast
    Utterdark blast
    etc.

    That's not even TRYING to optimize it, it's just looking at its basic class features. There aren't many encounters at high levels that can deal with that, and those that can (undead) can be dealt with in many other tricks.


    In my signature, there's a Pagan which tried at-will arcane casting. It's nowhere NEAR as easy to abuse as this class is, and generally everyone who looked at it went "nope broken sorry" while I was going "hey guys help me not-break this?"

    Admittedly, you do have delay, which helps a bit. But delay is fixed with invocations. You can basically do almost every dirty trick a wizard/warlock gestalt can do at will.

    Hitpoints aren't even an issue. With the magical defenses they can concoct (essentially permanent 50% miss chance, temporary hitpoints out the wazoo, damage reduction, etc. etc. etc.) it all comes down to "was not targeted by a magic missile or an arrow until level 3." And even then...

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    Mind posting a link? Warlock invocations as spells is weak, but caster spells as invocations is probably overpowered.
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    Ah, thank you very much GreatWyrmGold, you obviously live up to that name with your intelligence and wisdom with that post.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    Mind posting a link? Warlock invocations as spells is weak, but caster spells as invocations is probably overpowered.
    Click on the 'spoiler' in the first post, silly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TSED View Post
    Click on the 'spoiler' in the first post, silly.
    Huh?
    (checks)
    (smacks face)
    (uses healing to heal claw damage)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Blade Wolf View Post
    Ah, thank you very much GreatWyrmGold, you obviously live up to that name with your intelligence and wisdom with that post.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belial_the_Leveler View Post
    2) Color spray is very close range every 2 rounds. How many HP they got again? CON of 14 means 4 HP at first level. An arrow is 1d8+str.
    Actually it means 5 HP. And color spray can hit multpile targets. And how many people/monsters have composite longbows at first level?

    Quote Originally Posted by Belial_the_Leveler View Post
    3) Scry and die doesn't work; if they teleport, they need to wait 5 whole rounds before they can cast spells.
    Silly boy, you don't teleport right over your oponent, just somehwere near where you can't be detected but can now easily reach the target in one or two move actions, after taking your time buffing up properly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belial_the_Leveler View Post
    4) By 12th level, any spellcaster can call creatures with teleport and etherealness at will. If they're cheesy, they can also get astral projection via nightmare. So unless the DM bans teleports for everyone or can get challenges not overcomable by teleport, the game is busted anyway.
    By 12th level, you still don't have any safe fortress to store your bodies while you go astral projectioning, and even then you're relying in a minion who's much easier to be killed than the caster itself, or can just twist the meaning of your order at first oportunity.

    Besides, the magister was doing that a lot of time before.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belial_the_Leveler View Post
    5) At 19th level they can have shapechange and 4 more buffs up all day. That's the only problem I see with the class so far-and most casters can do the same.
    Yes, but the other casters will take a lot more of bookeeping and slot preparing. The magister doesn't have to bother with that.

    And he still has the invocations on top of the buffs. More than the warlock himself if I'm not mistaken.
    Last edited by Oslecamo; 2009-07-05 at 01:02 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou View Post
    My first thought is to make a Necropolitan, so you'd get 1d12 hp/level plus your Cha bonus.
    Does Necropolitan get this? I know Undead hit die are d12 but the PC is advancing by class levels not hit die, so they use the classes die for HP. And there is no universal rule for adding CHA to HP. That is only for specific undead with that ability.

    Didn't mean to derail the thread. IMO, it needs some playtesting. Warlock's will always have a soft spot for me and indeed, the invocations to take care of day to day things and spells to take out tricky problems, is an excellent combo.
    Last edited by Bugbeartrap; 2009-07-05 at 01:08 PM.

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    Default Re: Break this class

    Quote Originally Posted by TSED
    Timestop
    Utterdark blast
    Utterdark blast
    Utterdark blast
    etc.
    Too bad you can't attack while Time Stopped.

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    Did you intentionally word Scorn The Material so that Faerie Mysteries Initiate completely bypasses it? As the ability and feat are worded, FMI wouldn't take the 1/2 penalty, since it's not overriding the Con score, just ignoring it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    He can only maintain 5 spell effects at a time on level 19 (1 on level 1 - see Sustain Dweomer). This loophole does not exist, other than for instantaneous spells with permanent utility (I can't think of any off-hand; Creations, Runes, etc. all have duration and are thus subjected to this rule).
    Planar Binding: Put up a Calling diagram, put in the Magic Circle Against X that matches the beasty you're Calling, and Call something that doesn't have dimensional transport abilities so that you don't need the Dimensional Anchor. Only one spell is maintained at a time (the Magic Circle), Planar Binding is Instant, but the effect can last for up to 1 day/level. Potentially, starting at 10th level (Lesser Planar Binding), this guy could take three hours and have six elementals for his next few battles (calling it ten minutes to scribe the Calling diagram, four rounds for the Magic Circle (spell plus 3 rounds wait), ten minutes to cast the Planar Binding, and up to nine minutes six rounds to negotiate). At 12th that changes to Large elementals, and at 16th, Huge.
    With two of these guys (the second to handle the Dimensional Anchor), you can also get the ones with dimensional means of travel - which are the stronger ones. A Trumpet Archon casts as a Cleric-14, and is in range of Planar Binding, at 12th (although you'll want something for the Charisma difference...). A Planetar casts as a Cleric-17, and is in range of Greater Planar Binding, at 16th.

    Wall of Stone, Stone Shape, Fabricate:
    Build Castles, Craft trade goods instantly, break economies utterly. Fifth level spells mean a five-round delay; you can put out two per minute, all day.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bugbeartrap View Post
    Didn't mean to derail the thread. IMO, it needs some playtesting. Warlock's will always have a soft spot for me and indeed, the invocations to take care of day to day things and spells to take out tricky problems, is an excellent combo.
    I tend to go with Reserve feats, myself, for this type of purpose. Published, lets me play a normal caster, lets me run the character through gauntlets until out of HP.
    Last edited by Jack_Simth; 2009-07-05 at 01:49 PM.
    Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.

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