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Thread: Break this class
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2009-07-04, 02:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Break this class
OK, here's a base class I made some time ago, something between a caster and a warlock. I would like answers to the following questions;
1) Can the class be more powerful than a straight wizard or sorceror in combat? Assume good spell combos for the wizard or sorceror.
2) How about a cleric or druid?
3) How does the class compare to ToB classes power-wise?
4) Are there any prestige class and/or feat choices that can break the class?
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2009-07-04, 04:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Break this class
I'd say you've done a good job on tying them down to the action economy at later levels although they still have the squishy SoL cannon thing at lower one's but hey, 1-3 is just a crap shoot anyway.
I'd peg it as somewhere just above ToB since it has Arcane magic but less speed than a Sorc, very playable and with your permission I'll nab it for a road test sometime since actual gameplay is the only real test and it can throw up all kinds of random crap.Last edited by mostlyharmful; 2009-07-04 at 04:02 AM.
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2009-07-04, 04:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Break this class
Yeah, you can use it for a playtest.
The reason I was asking those balance questions was because I'm about to use it in my superhero game. I mean, Dr Fate totally fits the class.
If all you have is a hammer, don't be lazy; be a blacksmith and start making more stuff.
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2009-07-04, 04:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Break this class
The at-will casting is abusable because the magister can simply cast a ton of spells outside of combat. Even if it's the same spell over and over, he can tag an army with it. Or at least use 3-4 low spell levels to tag every single party member with a good array of buffs. Or prep a 100 shrunken items, 100 explosive runes, or etc. I'd close this loophole.
He also suffers from mystic-theurge syndrome. He can either cast or blast each round, but not both, so really he's not much stronger than someone who could do just one of these. It also encourages him to cast only his highest level spell, maybe 2nd highest, since he usually only gets 1 spell per combat. So his only use for lower level spells is the above mentioned abuse.Last edited by ericgrau; 2009-07-04 at 04:31 AM.
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2009-07-04, 04:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Break this class
My first thought is to make a Necropolitan, so you'd get 1d12 hp/level plus your Cha bonus. It could also qualify for and take some (physically) strong Gish classes such as Abjurant Champion and Eldritch Knight. I could see this being used for a spectacular Glaivelock build. As for your questions specifically:
1. Possibly, though I really like the mechanics of the delay between spells. It looks similar to the Arcane Swordsage variant, which is broken. Especially outside of combat when round-by-round actions don't really matter it could be extremely powerful. For example, spells I'd get with an Arcane Swordsage such as Greater Mage Hand, Greater Dispel Magic, Disintegrate, Ruby Ray of Reversal, and Iceberg from Frostburn can make a huge difference outside of combat. If a character doesn't have to worry about running out of spells, they can just spam those all day and just brute force their way through noncombat challenges. Summon Monster spells would be extremely potent and really drag the game down, especially if the character opens every fight with the highest level summon monster spell they can cast. Maybe restrict it to certain schools of magic rather than allowing it access to the entire spell list.
2. Its versatility is dependent on how many spells a given character knows, which could get extremely high. Basing its spell DCs and other abilities on Cha and spells known and highest level spells on Int is a good way of balancing that, but the character could always dump other stats. It can get the same spells as a Sorcerer, and can know more of them, so I'd put it no lower than Tier 2 for raw power, and possibly among the Tier 1 classes based on spell selection. If used in a strong Gish build it could make a capable combatant as well as a potent spellcaster, though it would lose many level-based abilities including how many buffs it could have going at a time.
3. I think it's a fairly even match, though this class would require more thought for spell selection than the ToB classes need to be powerful, and this class has a lot more potential in the higher levels. Going back to what I said earlier, it's very similar to the Arcane Swordsage variant, though that can spam a given spell every other round regardless of level. I think the two are fairly even though, which means it's quite a bit more powerful than the other ToB classes including the standard Swordsage.
4. Maybe a Glaivelock build, using the Eldritch Glaive invocation found in Dragon Magic. It depends on what "+1 level of existing spellcasting class" prestige classes would advance. I'd expect it to advance your spellcasting, invocations, and eldritch blast, just as they would for a Warlock or another spellcasting class. It looks like you're trying to use a low HD to balance its power, but Gish classes like Abjurant Champion and Eldritch Knight or even Divine Oracle can mitigate this, plus an undead race such as Necropolitan would be a decent choice. I'm also wondering if this class would be considered a 'spontaneous' spellcasting class, for prestige classes like Ultimate Magus. The Sustain Dweomer mechanic is a good reason to stay single-classed, but using a dual-progression prestige class can get around that by relying on traditional spellcasting for buffs and spamming offensive spells with this. Something like Magister 5/ Mindbender 1/ Ur-Priest 2/ Mystic Theurge 8/ whatever 4 would be decent, but somewhat MAD depending on how high you want Int to be.
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2009-07-04, 04:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Break this class
I'd just like to note, this should be in Homebrew.
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2009-07-04, 04:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Break this class
I really, really like this. The combination of a Wind Wall, Fly item or spell, and powerful and unlimited Eldritch blasts is still pretty powerful, but not anywhere near the same league as Batman. It still has the issue of the Magister starting the encounter with his highest-level save-or-die straight off the bat in EVERY fight...but at least it's considerably more difficult to spam them (though it wouldn't be too tough to spam something like Glitterdust).
Right now all the Magister's spells are cast as a single standard action. What happens with a spell that requires more than a single standard action as written? Are you considering that a bonus for the Magister?
Secondarily, what about casting at-will outside of combat? There's the potential to break things there (though it's not like we're talking a Wizard with a pocket dimension where he can get a day's rest/remem in 1 round of "real-time" to gain essentially unlimited spells per day).
Regardless, I'd seriously consider replacing the Wizard in a d20 campaign with this wholesale. This takes some tremendous strides in creating a class that seems fun to play, reasonably balanced to the ToB stuff, possessing unique mechanics, and with clear RP opportunities.Last edited by Swordguy; 2009-07-04 at 04:45 AM.
Originally Posted by Dervag
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2009-07-04, 05:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Break this class
He can only maintain 5 spell effects at a time on level 19 (1 on level 1 - see Sustain Dweomer). This loophole does not exist, other than for instantaneous spells with permanent utility (I can't think of any off-hand; Creations, Runes, etc. all have duration and are thus subjected to this rule).
Anyways, I like this class although I'm not crazy about combining Invocations & Arcane Casting into one base class. The ability to use Invocations to cover the "usual crap" with arcane magic as the "oh ****"-button seems to work out pretty well.Last edited by Eldariel; 2009-07-04 at 05:13 AM.
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2009-07-04, 05:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Break this class
I'd just like to note, this should be in Homebrew.
buffing out of combat:
They can only maintain a very limited amount of active spells, barely enough to buff themselves (1 spell at levels 1-4, 2 at levels 5-8, 3 at levels 9-12, 4 at levels 13-16 and 5 at the very high levels). And if they use up the limit, every non-instantaneous spell they try to cast will not work. So, dominating an entire army? Not feasible. Summoning an entire army? Not feasible. Buffing the party to insane levels? Nope. And due to the delay, round/level buffs and summons are problematic to them. Summon XI at round 1. 1 summoned creature. Next summon IX is at round 10. 2 summons. Next summon IX is at round 20-when the first summon ends so again 2 summons. They can't build them up.
starting with the highest-level spell each encounter:
Sure. But that means waiting up to 9 rounds before casting again. A sorceror can open with the highest level spell 6 times a day AND keep casting other spells that are stronger than an Eldritch Blast or Invocation. Unless you have an uncommonly large number of encounters per day, it doesn't seem unbalanced to me.
My first thought is to make a Necropolitan, so you'd get 1d12 hp/level plus your Cha bonus. It could also qualify for and take some (physically) strong Gish classes such as Abjurant Champion and Eldritch Knight. I could see this being used for a spectacular Glaivelock build.
If all you have is a hammer, don't be lazy; be a blacksmith and start making more stuff.
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2009-07-04, 06:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Break this class
From Complete Arcane page 18, under "Warlocks and Prestige Classes"
Warlocks benefit in a specific way from prestige classes that
have “+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class” or “+1
level of existing spellcasting class” as a level advancement
benefit. A warlock taking levels in such a prestige class
does not gain any of his class abilities, but he does gain
an increased caster level when using his invocations and
increased damage with his eldritch blast. Levels of prestige
classes that provide +1 level of spellcasting effectively
stack with the warlock’s level to determine his eldritch blast
damage (treat his combined caster level as his warlock class
level when looking at Table 1–1: The Warlock to determine
eldritch blast damage) and his eldritch blast caster level (half
his total caster level from his warlock levels and his levels
in the prestige class that grant him an increased spellcasting
level). A warlock also gains new invocations known at
these prestige class levels as though he had gained a level
in the warlock class.
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2009-07-04, 06:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Break this class
Breack this class? Just of the top of my head:
Low levels: best class evar. Spamming sleep and color spray every round doesn't really gives anybody else a chance to shine. At 4th level you'll just be running around with the invisibility invocation spamming save or dies left and right. You can't lose to anything AND you can keep going all day.
Gg, wizard, gg.
Mid levels: teleport at will? Scry at will? Yes please. You become the ultimate scry and kill dude. The DM starts to have a chance as he can give anti inv items to all his monsters. But you really don't care because you can now spam even better save or dies. And again, teleport at will makes a lot of challenges moot.
High levels: the wizard finally starts picking back on you, but the sorceror is still crying, because you're just spamming shapechance+your 3-4 favorite buffs and go around as a super monster all day long. Alternatively, spam gate as a auto-win button.
Coclusion: It's really easy to breack. Easier than wizard, because you don't have to worry about juggling with dozes of spell slots or spell scribbing. All you have to do is scry, buff and kill, wich you can do every battle, no matter what decisions you made in earlier levels. Outside of combat he will outshine EVERYBODY else in the party because he doesn't only have a magic solution to every conceivable problem, he can freaking spam it at will. At all levels.
Seriously, at will arcane magic just wasn't meant to be. Specially with infinite versatility.Last edited by Oslecamo; 2009-07-04 at 06:55 AM.
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2009-07-04, 07:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Break this class
Well he does have the whole fatigue and time limit thing.
but I don't know. A fireball every 18 seconds without even trying seems good to me. :)Current Avatar made by Pessimismrocks for the Battle for the little world - Fields of Blood game!
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2009-07-04, 07:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Break this class
@Oscelamo:
1) Sleep is 1 round casting-it takes effect on the following round. Add 1 round of waiting and it is once per 3 rounds. So, essentially, 1 time per encounter.
2) Color spray is very close range every 2 rounds. How many HP they got again? CON of 14 means 4 HP at first level. An arrow is 1d8+str.
3) Scry and die doesn't work; if they teleport, they need to wait 5 whole rounds before they can cast spells.
4) By 12th level, any spellcaster can call creatures with teleport and etherealness at will. If they're cheesy, they can also get astral projection via nightmare. So unless the DM bans teleports for everyone or can get challenges not overcomable by teleport, the game is busted anyway.
5) At 19th level they can have shapechange and 4 more buffs up all day. That's the only problem I see with the class so far-and most casters can do the same.
If all you have is a hammer, don't be lazy; be a blacksmith and start making more stuff.
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2009-07-04, 08:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Break this class
Human Magister 9, Split Ray (human), Ocular Spell (1), Easy Metamagic: Split Ray (flaw), Easy Metamagic: Ocular Spell (flaw), Sanctum Spell (3), Twin Spell (6), Arcane Thesis: Enervation (9); Lesser Metamagic Rod of Maximize
The setup: Ocular Split Ray Sanctum Twinned Enervation with Lesser Rod of Maximize, cast twice up to eight hours in advance. Doesn't necessarily count against your limited number of sustainable spells, but it doesn't matter if it does or not.
Enervation is 4th level (4)
Sanctum is +0 metamagic, makes it count as 3rd level (4)
Split Ray is +2 metamagic, down to +1 for Easy Metamagic (5)
Ocular spell is +2 metamagic, down to +1 for Easy Metamagic (6)
Twin is +4 metamagic (10)
Lesser Rod of Maximize is +0 metamagic (10)
Arcane Thesis gives it +2 caster level and counts it as -5 level (5)
Combat: first round your 9th level character spends a full round action to shoot four death rays, each of which deal eight negative levels on a successful ranged touch attack. Each ray can target a separate creature within 30 feet of any other target, or multiple rays can target a single creature. Hit four creatures each for eight negative levels, hit two creatures each for sixteen negative levels, hit one creature for thirty two negative levels, hit one creature for twenty four and one for eight negative levels, etc. at level nine. You can set that up as many times per day as you want. A Human Wizard 9 specialized in necromancy with focused specialist and Int 20+ can set that up twice/day, using all of his 5th level spells to do so.
Edit: You can afford two lesser rods of maximize at that level, so you can do that three times total per day. Note that releasing those already-cast spells doesn't prevent you from casting more spells on the second round of combat, or from teleporting in and then immediately releasing ocular spells.Last edited by Biffoniacus_Furiou; 2009-07-04 at 08:22 AM.
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2009-07-04, 08:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Break this class
Goddam wight production line. o_O
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2009-07-04, 08:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Break this class
I completely forgot about using Command Undead on a Slaymate from Libris Mortis. You could even put the thing in a straight jacket and hannibal lecter mask and stash it in a bag of holding until you need to cast your ocular spells, so it won't take up one of your sustainable spells to keep it commanded.
Human Magister 9, Split Ray (human), Ocular Spell (1), Twin Spell (flaw), Sanctum Spell (flaw), Maximize Spell (3), Easy Metamagic: Maximize Spell (6), Arcane Thesis: Enervation (9), with a Slaymate stashed in a Bag of Holding.
Enervation is 4th (4)
Sanctum is +0 metamagic, counts it as 3rd (4)
Split Ray is +2 metamagic, -1 for the Slaymate (5)
Ocular Spell is +2 metamagic, -1 for the Slaymate (6)
Maximize Spell is +3 metamagic, down to +2 for Easy Metamagic, -1 for the Slaymate (7)
Twin Spell is +4 metamagic, -1 for the Slaymate (10)
Arcane Thesis gives it +2 caster level and counts it as -5 level (5)
That setup actually has no daily limit, since you no longer need the 3/day metamagic rods.
Edit: By the way, Complete Arcane has a feat called Delay Spell that could be useful for scry-and-die. Maybe get it on a metamagic rod, it should cost the same as Maximize as both are +3 metamagics.Last edited by Biffoniacus_Furiou; 2009-07-04 at 08:39 AM.
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2009-07-04, 08:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Break this class
Already thought of that. Metamagic reducers reduce the spell slot level increase either when you memorise the spell or when you cast the spell. Magisters don't use spell slots at all-they use delay time. So metamagic reducers that reduce spell slot level can't be applied.
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2009-07-04, 08:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Break this class
Magister spells work normally with metamagic feats-the delay time is simply increased instead of spell slot level-though a magister can't metamagic a spell beyond his maximum available spell level.
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2009-07-04, 08:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Break this class
I am guessing that the calculation used to determine the time they cannot cast spells for is based on the modified spell level if metamagic is used?
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2009-07-04, 08:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Break this class
I beleive with a "please don't be silly with this" that goes assumed at all my games, (i make sure to say it to new players so it's only assumed after day 1) that it's fairly balanced. But then my group thinks the monks pretty cool, the leasership fet should be in every game, and wizards are weak (they like rushing in and hitting things.)
If you really want to check this i'd say build it to fight a wizard and build a wizard to fight it at a few different levels, do the same with a barbarian, cleric, druid, and something that could get silly like a spell thief.
also, this is the new hench person for the BBEG in my game.
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2009-07-04, 08:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Break this class
For the Ocular Spell trick the delay doesn't matter, you cast two spells up to 8 hours in advance and hold them in your eyes. Long after the delay for casting them has passed, you can spend a full-round action to release both simultaneously, which does not count as casting a spell. You can release them during the delay after having cast another spell, or you can cast a spell on the round immediately after releasing them. The point of metamagic reducers is the part about not being able to increase it beyond your highest available spell level. A level 17 character can still probably throw out a 32-negative-level volley of rays on the first round of every encounter, then follow up by casting a 9th level spell on anything that survives, or open with a 9th level spell then 32-negative-levels on whatever survived.
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2009-07-04, 09:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Break this class
32 Negative Levels
Timestop
Utterdark blast
Utterdark blast
Utterdark blast
etc.
That's not even TRYING to optimize it, it's just looking at its basic class features. There aren't many encounters at high levels that can deal with that, and those that can (undead) can be dealt with in many other tricks.
In my signature, there's a Pagan which tried at-will arcane casting. It's nowhere NEAR as easy to abuse as this class is, and generally everyone who looked at it went "nope broken sorry" while I was going "hey guys help me not-break this?"
Admittedly, you do have delay, which helps a bit. But delay is fixed with invocations. You can basically do almost every dirty trick a wizard/warlock gestalt can do at will.
Hitpoints aren't even an issue. With the magical defenses they can concoct (essentially permanent 50% miss chance, temporary hitpoints out the wazoo, damage reduction, etc. etc. etc.) it all comes down to "was not targeted by a magic missile or an arrow until level 3." And even then...
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2009-07-04, 10:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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2009-07-04, 10:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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2009-07-04, 10:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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2009-07-05, 12:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Break this class
Actually it means 5 HP. And color spray can hit multpile targets. And how many people/monsters have composite longbows at first level?
Silly boy, you don't teleport right over your oponent, just somehwere near where you can't be detected but can now easily reach the target in one or two move actions, after taking your time buffing up properly.
By 12th level, you still don't have any safe fortress to store your bodies while you go astral projectioning, and even then you're relying in a minion who's much easier to be killed than the caster itself, or can just twist the meaning of your order at first oportunity.
Besides, the magister was doing that a lot of time before.
Yes, but the other casters will take a lot more of bookeeping and slot preparing. The magister doesn't have to bother with that.
And he still has the invocations on top of the buffs. More than the warlock himself if I'm not mistaken.Last edited by Oslecamo; 2009-07-05 at 01:02 PM.
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2009-07-05, 01:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Break this class
Does Necropolitan get this? I know Undead hit die are d12 but the PC is advancing by class levels not hit die, so they use the classes die for HP. And there is no universal rule for adding CHA to HP. That is only for specific undead with that ability.
Didn't mean to derail the thread. IMO, it needs some playtesting. Warlock's will always have a soft spot for me and indeed, the invocations to take care of day to day things and spells to take out tricky problems, is an excellent combo.Last edited by Bugbeartrap; 2009-07-05 at 01:08 PM.
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2009-07-05, 01:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Break this class
Originally Posted by TSED
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2009-07-05, 01:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Break this class
Did you intentionally word Scorn The Material so that Faerie Mysteries Initiate completely bypasses it? As the ability and feat are worded, FMI wouldn't take the 1/2 penalty, since it's not overriding the Con score, just ignoring it.
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2009-07-05, 01:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Break this class
Planar Binding: Put up a Calling diagram, put in the Magic Circle Against X that matches the beasty you're Calling, and Call something that doesn't have dimensional transport abilities so that you don't need the Dimensional Anchor. Only one spell is maintained at a time (the Magic Circle), Planar Binding is Instant, but the effect can last for up to 1 day/level. Potentially, starting at 10th level (Lesser Planar Binding), this guy could take three hours and have six elementals for his next few battles (calling it ten minutes to scribe the Calling diagram, four rounds for the Magic Circle (spell plus 3 rounds wait), ten minutes to cast the Planar Binding, and up to nine minutes six rounds to negotiate). At 12th that changes to Large elementals, and at 16th, Huge.
With two of these guys (the second to handle the Dimensional Anchor), you can also get the ones with dimensional means of travel - which are the stronger ones. A Trumpet Archon casts as a Cleric-14, and is in range of Planar Binding, at 12th (although you'll want something for the Charisma difference...). A Planetar casts as a Cleric-17, and is in range of Greater Planar Binding, at 16th.
Wall of Stone, Stone Shape, Fabricate:
Build Castles, Craft trade goods instantly, break economies utterly. Fifth level spells mean a five-round delay; you can put out two per minute, all day.
I tend to go with Reserve feats, myself, for this type of purpose. Published, lets me play a normal caster, lets me run the character through gauntlets until out of HP.Last edited by Jack_Simth; 2009-07-05 at 01:49 PM.
Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.