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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default [Tome of Battle] New Maneuvers

    the 9 disciplines (I also have a heap of homebrewed disciplines I want to eventually look at, but the scope of that project is much vaster so I'm concentrating on the maneuvers belonging to the normal 9 disciplines for now). That's a lot of maneuvers, and I could use some help going over them, rewriting them, and balancing them (a lot of them don't have flavor text, either). If you're up for it, please give me a hand! I'm also interested in any other new maneuvers people would like to contribute to this endeavor (or links to threads with some that it looks like I've missed).

    I have posted companion threads to this one on a couple of other forums that I frequent, and will be working with everyone to make these maneuvers presentable -- hopefully at the end of it I will have a well-balanced, nicely edited document I can give to everyone as a fanmade expansion to Tome of Battle.

    Here are my preliminary documents:

    Desert Wind
    Devoted Spirit
    Diamond Mind
    Iron Heart
    Setting Sun
    Shadow Hand
    Stone Dragon
    Tiger Claw
    White Raven

    Credit for the prior creation of these maneuvers goes to the following people: The Demented One, Obsidianjaerc, Razz, Yue Ryong, JiCi, KnH, aelryinth, BrazilRascal, Tempest Stormwind, Crashy75, Neofish, Riplox, AllisterH, and the countless others that contributed to the threads that these maneuvers were presented on (I'll put a more complete credits page in the finalised document once it's done). I take no credit for the creation of these maneuvers.

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    Default Re: [Tome of Battle] New Maneuvers

    Just so I don't forget, here is a LINK to something I am PROBABLY going to type up and submit.
    Last edited by DracoDei; 2009-07-30 at 10:49 AM.
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    Default Re: [Tome of Battle] New Maneuvers

    Desert Wind

    "Target:" on A Thousand Birds needs to be fixed. Copy-paste error.

    Note that Maneuvers typically state the stat that their save DCs depend on rather than saying "key ability." Also, they always have a save DC based on their maneuver level, so Dancing Flame should be save DC 15+WIS rather than 11+"key ability." (Unless it's supposed to be an exception, like Swooping Dragon Strike is, but I don't think it should be.)

    Dance of Unquenchable Flames is very powerful. I'd think it would be Level 7 or 8 instead of 5. (Of course, it's also something that blaster Desert Wind Swordsages kind of need, even at low levels ... but I'm evaluating the stance under its own merits, not the merits of the build that will include it.)

    Glaring Blade is much more powerful than existing DW Level 1 strikes. It should be Level 2 or 3.

    Illumination of Vigilance needs more explicit rules about when it is triggered. It also gets rather wordy with the detailed interaction with the (rather rare) Light Sensitivity trait. My personal taste would be to drop those details, flavorful though they are, in the name of streamlining. Also, WIS instead of "key ability."

    Rising Steam Flip is a good maneuver, but a cheesy name even by ToB's standards. Sorry.

    Phoenix Feather Healing is a cool idea. But beware of shenanigans for multiplayer abuse, like if another blaster-Swordsage or a caster with Fiery Burst or a Dragonfire Adept uses this ability to lead to infinite healing.

    Striking Sidewinder Stance is awesome, but I worry that it's quite a bit better than the low-level existing Boost that adds +1d6 fire damage for a turn. A tumble specialist really doesn't have any trouble using this stance round after round after round. Yet making it higher-level seems like a harsh nerf. Perhaps just a hefty prerequisite could be added?

    Razor Walk is ok, but again I might drop flavorful details in the name of streamlining.

    Supernova Guillotine is a little weak for a Level 9. Add knock prone? A second saving throw (if the first one failed) to avoid instant death? I dunno.

    Wind Howl is sweet, especially if you've read the book The Name of the Wind.

    OK, that's it for Desert Wind ... I'll do the others eventually if I have time and energy for them.
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    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: [Tome of Battle] New Maneuvers

    Thanks for the critical look at Desert Wind, Draz! I really appreciate it! let's see...

    Quote Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
    "Target:" on A Thousand Birds needs to be fixed. Copy-paste error.
    Oops. Nice catch. Thanks. That was my mistake.

    Quote Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
    Note that Maneuvers typically state the stat that their save DCs depend on rather than saying "key ability." Also, they always have a save DC based on their maneuver level, so Dancing Flame should be save DC 15+WIS rather than 11+"key ability." (Unless it's supposed to be an exception, like Swooping Dragon Strike is, but I don't think it should be.)
    Thanks. Like I said, I haven't had too close a look at them yet. It all started to blur together long before I reached the 100-maneuver mark. I'll have to go through and make sure the saves on all of them are appropriate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
    Dance of Unquenchable Flames is very powerful. I'd think it would be Level 7 or 8 instead of 5. (Of course, it's also something that blaster Desert Wind Swordsages kind of need, even at low levels ... but I'm evaluating the stance under its own merits, not the merits of the build that will include it.)
    Perhaps a change to ignore a certain amount of fire resistance; maybe half, or possibly base it on IL? Do you think that would balance a bit better? I think I'd prefer them get a weaker version earlier that gets stronger as opposed to waiting until they can get level 7 or 8 maneuvers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
    Glaring Blade is much more powerful than existing DW Level 1 strikes. It should be Level 2 or 3.
    Compare it to Burning Blade and Blistering Flourish. BB has higher damage (1d6+level) and is a boost that lasts until end of turn, rather than a single attack. BF does no damage, and only dazzles opposed to blinding, but for a much longer duration (GB's blind is only for a single round) and affects an area. I tend towards thinking it's about right where it is when balanced against those two other Desert Wind maneuvers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
    Illumination of Vigilance needs more explicit rules about when it is triggered. It also gets rather wordy with the detailed interaction with the (rather rare) Light Sensitivity trait. My personal taste would be to drop those details, flavorful though they are, in the name of streamlining. Also, WIS instead of "key ability."
    Could you suggest a rewording? I tried making an attempt, but it's late and my brain is fried from work. I will look at it again later.

    Quote Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
    Rising Steam Flip is a good maneuver, but a cheesy name even by ToB's standards. Sorry.
    Why are you sorry? I didn't write it You should be apologising to The Demented One.

    Quote Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
    Phoenix Feather Healing is a cool idea. But beware of shenanigans for multiplayer abuse, like if another blaster-Swordsage or a caster with Fiery Burst or a Dragonfire Adept uses this ability to lead to infinite healing.
    True enough. Can you think of a way to limit it so as to prevent abuse, without compromising the coolness of the maneuver?

    Quote Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
    Striking Sidewinder Stance is awesome, but I worry that it's quite a bit better than the low-level existing Boost that adds +1d6 fire damage for a turn. A tumble specialist really doesn't have any trouble using this stance round after round after round. Yet making it higher-level seems like a harsh nerf. Perhaps just a hefty prerequisite could be added?
    I agree with you on all points here. Keep in mind that Burning Blade is a swift action to use (and lasts your whole turn), whereas you have to use a move action to set up your conditions to use this stance (meaning you only get a standard to attack with). With regards to a prereq... how hefty are we talking, here? I would hesitate to put more than "1 Desert Wind Maneuver".

    Quote Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
    Razor Walk is ok, but again I might drop flavorful details in the name of streamlining.
    From what I can tell, Razor Walk is suppose to mimic jumping onto and running up the opponent's weapon to dodge. I'm not sure what to do with it, exactly. We could streamline it, but I can't think of a way to do that without altering the flavour significantly, and then the entire point seems lost.

    Quote Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
    Supernova Guillotine is a little weak for a Level 9. Add knock prone? A second saving throw (if the first one failed) to avoid instant death? I dunno.
    I'll agree that something more could be added. Not sure what though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
    Wind Howl is sweet, especially if you've read the book The Name of the Wind.
    It is quite cool, but I'm afraid I haven't read that book.

    Quote Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
    OK, that's it for Desert Wind ... I'll do the others eventually if I have time and energy for them.
    You've been exceedingly helpful, so I really do hope you continue to contribute to this project! Thanks again! I look forward to hearing your opinions on the rest of the maneuvers.

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    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: [Tome of Battle] New Maneuvers

    Another note about Dance of Unquenchable Flames -- It's Hot Outside has a metamagic feat that does basically the same thing for +1 spell level, except it also deals half-damage to immune creatures. Considering it's a level 5 maneuver as it stands, I'm actually inclined to think that it's balanced where it is, and doesn't need to be changed.

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    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: [Tome of Battle] New Maneuvers

    The Desert Wind discipline has been revised (link in first post has been updated). This is not a final version, but it should hopefully be a lot closer to finished now. I also messed around with the PDF creation, so hopefully the issue some people were having will be fixed in this version.

    ---

    Most maneuvers received minor rewrites, major changes include:

    * A THOUSAND BIRDS: Fixed copy/paste error in Target line.
    * DANCING FLAME: Level lowered to 4.
    * GLARING BLADE: Level raised to 2. Damage increased to 2d6.
    * HEATSTROKE STRIKE: Whole new maneuver added.
    * ILLUMINATION OF VIGILANCE: Heavily reworded.
    * NOVA GUILLOTINE: Damaged lowered to 2d6, Int damage fixed at 4.
    * PHOENIX FEATHER HEALING: Added caveat based on Crusader's Strike wording.
    * RAZOR WALK: Heavily reworded.
    * STRIKING SIDEWINDER STANCE: Added a prerequisite - 1 Desert Wind maneuver.
    * SUPERNOVA GUILLOTINE: Prerequisite increased to 5. Damage lowered to 15d6, ability damage changed to Int, Wis, and Cha damage.

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    Default Re: [Tome of Battle] New Maneuvers

    I did just a quick look through of the Iron Heart maneuvers, and gotta ask, why is there Electric damage in there? I thought the purpose of Iron heart was all martial all the time.

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    Default Re: [Tome of Battle] New Maneuvers

    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes View Post
    I did just a quick look through of the Iron Heart maneuvers, and gotta ask, why is there Electric damage in there? I thought the purpose of Iron heart was all martial all the time.
    You're absolutely right, of course. Remember, this is simply a copy/paste/format of maneuvers other people have made, so I can't actually say what was going through the mind of the creator when he decided to put them in IH. I left them in because I thought that they were cool and might be salvaged and moved to a more appropriate discipline.

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    Default Re: [Tome of Battle] New Maneuvers

    Still hoping to get around to others at some point.

    Quote Originally Posted by mythSSK View Post
    Perhaps a change to ignore a certain amount of fire resistance; maybe half, or possibly base it on IL? Do you think that would balance a bit better? I think I'd prefer them get a weaker version earlier that gets stronger as opposed to waiting until they can get level 7 or 8 maneuvers.
    Yeah, I'm sure it could be made to scale fairly. 5 then 10 then 15 resistance overcome or somesuch, and maybe at IL 20 it could even half-overcome immunity or something.

    Compare it to Burning Blade and Blistering Flourish. BB has higher damage (1d6+level) and is a boost that lasts until end of turn, rather than a single attack. BF does no damage, and only dazzles opposed to blinding, but for a much longer duration (GB's blind is only for a single round) and affects an area. I tend towards thinking it's about right where it is when balanced against those two other Desert Wind maneuvers.
    Dazzling is a much weaker condition than Blindiing. Dazzling is like the designers saying "we really don't respect this effect at all, it's minuscule, but we guess we'll give it a token mechanical acknowledgment." Also, Blistering Flourish has friendly fire involved, so I'm not sure affecting an area is much of an advantage.

    I, for one, would still never take Blistering Flourish if GB was available. It does at least have a prerequisite ... but I still kind of want to bump it up to Level 2.

    True enough. Can you think of a way to limit it so as to prevent abuse, without compromising the coolness of the maneuver?
    The quote-the-Crusader-rules thing works, mostly. It's not perfect, but for a lazy method it's pretty sound.

    I agree with you on all points here. Keep in mind that Burning Blade is a swift action to use (and lasts your whole turn), whereas you have to use a move action to set up your conditions to use this stance (meaning you only get a standard to attack with). With regards to a prereq... how hefty are we talking, here? I would hesitate to put more than "1 Desert Wind Maneuver".
    I was thinking 2 maneuvers as a prereq. I know, crazy for Level 1. But ... yeah, it's a lot better than Burning Blade.

    The have-to-move-to-use-it requirement doesn't make it feel much weaker; not in the context of Tome of Battle. There are lots of ways in Tome of Battle to move and still get a full attack. Or to make a pretty devastating attack even with just a standard action.

    From what I can tell, Razor Walk is suppose to mimic jumping onto and running up the opponent's weapon to dodge. I'm not sure what to do with it, exactly. We could streamline it, but I can't think of a way to do that without altering the flavour significantly, and then the entire point seems lost.
    Probably just dropping the clause that says you're still harmed by touching the foe if they're a Fire Elemental or similar.

    I'll agree that something more could be added. Not sure what though.
    Something ... flashy. This is Desert Wind we're talking about, not Setting Sun. Stunning was another idea I had. Maybe +20d6 fire damage, knock prone, 2d6 damage to a single mental score of your choice, and stun for 1 round (save negates stunning and halves ability damage)?
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    Default Re: [Tome of Battle] New Maneuvers

    Shadow Hand, Stone Dragon and Tiger Claw are updated. As I noted earlier, Desert Wind has already been updated -- I'll include the change notes from that post in this one as well so they're all together. All PDF links in the original post have been updated to reflect the most recent versions. Can someone please let me know if the new versions of the PDFs are suffering the same viewing issues for some people as the old ones were? Thanks.


    DESERT WIND
    -----------
    * A THOUSAND BIRDS: Fixed copy/paste error in Target line.
    * DANCING FLAME: Level lowered to 4.
    * GLARING BLADE: Level raised to 2. Damage increased to 2d6.
    * HEATSTROKE STRIKE: Whole new maneuver added.
    * ILLUMINATION OF VIGILANCE: Heavily reworded.
    * NOVA GUILLOTINE: Damaged lowered to 2d6, Int damage fixed at 4.
    * PHOENIX FEATHER HEALING: Added caveat based on Crusader's Strike wording.
    * RAZOR WALK: Heavily reworded.
    * STRIKING SIDEWINDER STANCE: Added a prerequisite - 1 Desert Wind maneuver.
    * SUPERNOVA GUILLOTINE: Prerequisite increased to 5. Damage lowered to 15d6, ability damage changed to Int, Wis, and Cha damage.


    SHADOW HAND
    -----------
    * DISPELLING STRIKE: Level lowered to 3.
    * DISPELLING STRIKE, GREATER: Level lowered to 6.
    * PHANTOM CHARGE: Images now do negative energy damage.
    * SHADOW MIMICRY & SHADOW MIMICRY, GREATER: Changed to typeless maneuvers. Changed workings of maneuvers a bit.
    * SHROUD OF DARKNESS: Removed the first ability of the maneuver.
    * UMBRAL JUMP: Redundant in comparison to FATAL BLIND SPOT. Deleted entirely.


    STONE DRAGON
    ------------
    * BOULDER CRUSH: Changed initiation to require a charge attack.
    * BOULDER FALL: Too many unresolvable issues, to way to reasonably fix. Deleted entirely.
    * DO NOT GO GENTLY: Changed to allow automatic stablization.
    * DUST WHISPERS: Level increased to 5.
    * EMBRACE OF THE AVALANCHE: Level increased to 7. Changed to deal 1 point less nonlethal damage.
    * GAIT OF THE UNSHAKEABLE MOUNTAIN: Reduced to 50% fortification.


    TIGER CLAW
    ----------
    * AVIAN WIND DANCE: Too similar to Leaping Dragon Stance. Deleted entirely.
    * DEADLY LEVIATHAN STANCE: Doesn't fit with Tiger Claw, and a similar stance will likely be included in a new discipline later on at some point. Deleted entirely.
    * DRAGON FANG STANCE: Brought more in line with the Frightful Presence dragon ability it mimics.
    * FRENZIED BADGER FLURRY: Limited to two weapons, to bring in line with other attack-granting Tiger Claw maneuvers.
    * GRINNING WOLF GLARE: Level raised to 2.
    * LION’S PRIDE TAKEDOWN: Level raised to 2. Renamed to REAPING WOLF STRIKE, as it imitates the attack of a wolf.
    * ROAR OF THE MANED KING: Duration dropped to 1 minute.
    * TALONS OF LIGHT AND SHADOW: Badly written and a bad idea. Deleted entirely.

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    Default Re: [Tome of Battle] New Maneuvers

    Iron Heart

    Personally I agree with the sentiment that was expressed earlier, that Iron Heart should stick strictly to non-magical effects. However, I'm not sure everyone agrees with that, or would have a problem with high-level Iron Heart [Su] maneuvers that, for example, add Lightning damage to an attack. I would be much more opinionated on the issue if the Lightning Throw maneuver in Tome of Battle didn't, IMHO, already cross the line into the unbelievable.

    So you'll have to decide whether Calling the Lightning Bolt and similar [Su] maneuvers are acceptable to Iron Heart or not.

    A related but independent issue is whether such maneuvers should actually have the [Su] tag, or still the [Ex] tag. Again, consider original Tome of Battle maneuvers that seem pretty unbelievable but are still [Ex]. Lightning Throw. Strike of Righteous Vitality. Earthstrike Quake.

    There certainly is a thematic link between Iron Heart and lightning. Observe, for example, the Stormguard Warrior feat (Iron Heart-based Tactical). Any maneuvers that can build on this thematic link, without seeming too supernatural, should be encouraged.

    * * *

    Calling the Lightning Bolt has other issues besides the [Su] stuff. It's treading on the thematic turf of Tiger Claw with its Jump check. It's ... kinda boring mechanically, except for the possibility of hurting multiple opponents if they happen to be lined up vertically. Which (besides being extremely rare) is, honestly, not thematically in line with Iron Heart at all. I don't find it too powerful or two weak; just "off." It would be great in a Variant Desert Wind tradition that did Lightning damage instead of Fire.

    Infinite Procession of Steel seems too weak for Level 8. I'm comparing it to Pouncing Charge or Mithral Tornado ... yeah, it seems more like Level 6. Very appropriate thematically, though.

    Irongrip Style is nice. I like it, as long as it's in a game where it can't be combined with other Power Attack shenanigans such as Shock Trooper and Leap Attack. I do worry that it will undo some of the help that Tome of Battle has given to the sword-and-board style, bringing THF style back to supremacy.

    Kamaitachi ... [Su] effects issues again. I wonder if it has to be, though, or if it could be believably mundane with some changes. Crazy idea: what if Kamaitachi was a Boost (swift action), did only a small amount of damage (like 1d6) to creatures in the area, but counted as spending a swift action to recharge your Maneuvers? Fluff-wise, it would be a sort of a super-flourish you make with your weapon during a pause in the action. There would probably have to be a caveat line that restricted it to Warblades and similar classes only; no Martial Study feat.

    Stormstrike Chain is still too supernatural for my taste in Iron Heart, but it's a lot more palatable than Calling the Lightning Bolt. It would be fun to make a maneuver like this, call it [Ex], and have it only work during stormy weather, but I guess that would underpower almost anything.

    Sudden Parry is a good example of a low-level Iron Heart technique. I worry it's slightly underpowered, but meh, it's Level 1 after all.

    Tiring Blows is an interesting idea, but IMHO a paperwork nightmare. Exhausted is not a fun condition to add and remove from a creature multiple times in the same combat. The mechanical definitions of "in combat" here are also funky. So, what, a Roper who's 20 feet away from the Warblade and ignoring him gets Exhausted, just because his tentacles are long enough that he could attack the Warblade?
    Last edited by Draz74; 2009-07-31 at 04:28 PM.
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    Default Re: [Tome of Battle] New Maneuvers

    For some reason when I open the links, it's a bunch of gibberish. Well, actually, it's the bottom halves of the letters, but it's still pretty impossible to read.

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    Default Re: [Tome of Battle] New Maneuvers

    Quote Originally Posted by Milskidasith View Post
    For some reason when I open the links, it's a bunch of gibberish. Well, actually, it's the bottom halves of the letters, but it's still pretty impossible to read.
    I'm aware of the problem that some people have been having -- is it all of them? I've had reports that the new PDFs I've made for Desert Wind, Shadow Hand, Stone Dragon, and Tiger Claw all work fine.

    ---

    With regards to Iron Heart, I'm of the mind that it should stick with non-supernatural effects. As Draz says, there is a thematic link between Iron Heart and lightning, but actual maneuvers like Calling the Lightning Bolt feel out of place to me.

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    Default Re: [Tome of Battle] New Maneuvers

    Nothing but the Desert Wind PDF works for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milskidasith View Post
    For some reason when I open the links, it's a bunch of gibberish. Well, actually, it's the bottom halves of the letters, but it's still pretty impossible to read.
    Same problem (as I noticed before when seeing your posts when glancing through other forums). For me, Desert Wind works but none of the others. My standard PDF-reader is just Adobe Reader. I don't know if this means anything, but when I try and copy text over from Desert Wind into OpenOffice, the font shows up as "Verdana;Verdana" while the others copy over into complete gibberish (random letters, numbers, symbols, and unrecognized characters) as Verdana_Bold0167 for the title and T3Font_0 for the rest.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lsfreak View Post
    Same problem (as I noticed before when seeing your posts when glancing through other forums). For me, Desert Wind works but none of the others. My standard PDF-reader is just Adobe Reader. I don't know if this means anything, but when I try and copy text over from Desert Wind into OpenOffice, the font shows up as "Verdana;Verdana" while the others copy over into complete gibberish (random letters, numbers, symbols, and unrecognized characters) as Verdana_Bold0167 for the title and T3Font_0 for the rest.
    It's strange that Desert Wind works and the other three don't. For reference, to create the PDFs I used Adobe Acrobat 8 Professional, with the original files made in Word 2007 (*.doc, not *.docx so that's not the problem). I literally have no idea why anyone would have a problem with them. Desert Wind was made the exact same way as the other new ones, so it's odd tat it works but they don't. They even used the same based word document when I built them.
    Last edited by mythSSK; 2009-07-31 at 06:56 PM.

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    Default Re: [Tome of Battle] New Maneuvers

    I've had some people vehemently protest the inclusion of the Shadow Hand Shadow Mimicry maneuvers. I'd like to get feedback from more people before I make a decision whether to keep them or not. What are everyone's thoughts on them? I've reproduced them below, for those who still can't get into the PDFs. They're obviously based on the shadow evocation spells.


    ----


    SHADOW MIMICRY
    Shadow Hand
    Level: 4
    Prerequisite: 1 Shadow Hand maneuver
    Initiation Action: See text
    Range: See text
    Target: See text
    Duration: See text
    Saving Throw: Will partial; see text

    With this maneuver, you can imitate any other maneuver – but not stance – of 3rd level or lower. If the maneuver you are imitating is not one you know, you must succeed on a Martial Lore check with a DC equal to 15 + twice the maneuver’s level. If you fail this check, the imitation fails and the maneuver is lost.
    Shadow Mimicry is treated as a maneuver of the same type as the maneuver it imitates, and its initiation action is the same as that of the imitated maneuver. While the imitated maneuver functions normally for the most part, it is only a facsimile. In addition to any saves normally offered by the maneuver, any creature targeted by it may attempt a Will save or Martial Lore check (DC 14 + Wis modifier) to recognize and defeat the sham. Against a creature that makes it save/check, any damage the imitated maneuver deals is reduced to 20% of its normal amount, and any special effects it may have are only 20% likely to actually occur.
    When you use this maneuver to imitate a maneuver that is a supernatural ability, it is a supernatural ability.


    SHADOW MIMICRY, GREATER
    Shadow Hand
    Level: 8
    Prerequisite: 3 Shadow Hand maneuvers
    Initiation Action: See text
    Range: See text
    Target: See text
    Duration: See text
    Saving Throw: Will partial; see text

    This maneuver functions like shadow mimicry, except as above and it can imitate maneuvers of up to 7th level, the save DC is 18 + Wis modifier, and if a creature saves or makes a successful Martial Lore check the damage is reduced to 60% and any special effects are 60% likely to occur.
    When you use this maneuver to imitate a maneuver that is a supernatural ability, it is a supernatural ability.

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    Default Re: [Tome of Battle] New Maneuvers

    The fluff may need adjustment on those two, and you MIGHT need to reduce the levels of the maneuvers they can immitate, but I think I like them.

    One problem is that unlike spellcasters, a 4th level maneuver is no more costly to prepare than a 3rd level one, so you aren't losing as much in exchange for the veritility... of course it still offers a save, and to expand beyond your maneuvers known requires a skill-check or it is wasted (I assume it is wasted).
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  19. - Top - End - #19
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    Default Re: [Tome of Battle] New Maneuvers

    Hmmm, yeah, they seem ok to me at the levels when you can first get them, then they might actually turn out to be underpowered in the long run, when you can prepare higher-level maneuvers of the disciplines you actually have.

    But this is a case where I think playtesting will be a much better test of balance than theory. They may yet turn out overpowered.
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    I'm back to working on converting Red Hand of Doom to 5e.

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