Warhammer 40k III - Hats for the Hat Throne

[Cheesegear]

Even though Grav Chute Insertion is risky, scouting and then moving flatout just to drop all the meltas right next to tanks seems too fun to pass up. Beyond that, they're 3 Twin-linked lascannons strapped to a flying Chimera.

You don't have to move Flat out. That way, Grav Chuting doesn't come into effect and you don't die very easily. But, I would be pretty iffy 'dropping' Melta-troopers when you've already got 3 Lascannons bearing down on said tank.

Second, Infiltrating (or Deep Striking) Storm Troopers don't even need Vendettas to get into position. Instead of two squads of ten, have you thought about three squads of five-seven, packing two meltaguns each?

On a personal note;
After a bit of hacking and chopping, I turned my Valkyrie into a Vendetta. It was far and away the best choice I've made with my Guard to date. Valkyries suck. Vendettas rule. That's all I have to say on the matter.

My Veterans are still under performing. Even now that I've realised that I've misread and they do indeed have BS4. I still find that they don't work. I still vastly prefer Storm Troopers and regular Platoons.
...Infiltrating (and/or Outflanking) makes Storm Troopers my favourites.

[Selrahc]

So its probably time for some upkeep on my army, but I might as well get some feedback on the list, see if anyone has any suggestions for improvements.

This is the 1500pt list

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HQ
Bloodthirster 250
Herald of Tzeentch, bolt of Tzeentch 50
Herald of Khorne 70

Troops
8 Horrors, bolt of Tzeentch 146
10 Horrors 170
5 Bloodletters 80
5 Bloodletters 80
5 Bloodletters 80
5 Bloodletters 80 (Condensed into units of 10 if a kill point game)

Fast Attack
10 Flesh Hounds 150
5 Flesh Hounds 75
5 Flesh Hounds 75

Heavy Support
1 Daemon Prince 80 (Standard Prince model, occasionally used for Khorne)
1 Daemon Prince 80(Converted Deciever model, occasionally used for Tzeentch)

In addition to those models I've got quite a few models which I shoehorn in to add variation. 10 Daemonettes, 7(?) Plaguebearers, 3 Nurglings, 1 Bloodcrusher, 1 Beast of Nurgle, another Daemon Prince(Old fantasy model, occasionally used for Slaanesh), 3 Flamers, 1 Fiend of Slaanesh, 4 Screamers. A few more heralds. Couple of unused bloodletters and horrors. Occasionally model rep a rather demonic looking defiler in as a Soul Grinder.
I could maybe buy some other stuff, but I'm not looking for too much extra expense.

The strategy at the moment is to put in the Fleshhounds and Bloodthirster behind cover, drop a squad of horrors in as well to rip a lightly armoured units to ribbons before dying. The next turn the Fleshhounds and Bloodthirster try and tie up as many good ranged units as possible, and the Horrors and Herald with Bolt try and kill any tank with exposed rear armour.

Thing is though, if my army gets screwed over by the dice gods and is forced to deep strike in the wrong order.. it doesn't really work. Anyone got any suggestions?

[Cheesegear]

My opinion is that Khorne is the second worst God. Slaanesh daemons are better in combat than Khorne ones. And I've proven it on a few occasions. Flesh Hounds are good, but, that's all I really like.

Bloodthirster 250
Herald of Tzeentch, bolt of Tzeentch 50
Herald of Khorne 70

Hearlds. Need. Mounts. Other than the usual benefits provided, Heralds are way too slow without one. A Herald of Khrone can't Fleet, and has no ranged weapons. He needs to be in combat. Make sure he can do so before he gets shot to death.
(The Ruinous Powers help you if you're playing against a Psycannon-happy daemonhunter)

Personally, I'd put your Herald on a Disc of Tzeentch. A chariot would make him less squishy...But costs points. A fully tooled Herald of Tzeentch will rip the board apart (as long as he doesn't get into assault), probably one of the only cases (certainly the only case I can think of) in the whole of 40K where taking everything that the model can take is a good idea.

...And, sadly, the Bloodthirster is the second or third worst Greater Daemon. Depending on what you like.

8 Horrors, bolt of Tzeentch 146
10 Horrors 170
5 Bloodletters 80
5 Bloodletters 80
5 Bloodletters 80
5 Bloodletters 80 (Condensed into units of 10 if a kill point game)

MOAR ICONS! Having No Daemonettes will hurt you a bit. My daemonettes come with an Icon, and when I get a bad Deep Strike, they can Fleet into where they need to be. Bloodletters are slow (thankfully not as slow as Plaguers). My tactic is to run daemonettes up the board and when they get into position, they can bring the Bloodletters down.

10 Flesh Hounds 150
5 Flesh Hounds 75
5 Flesh Hounds 75

Drop some Flesh Hounds for some Flamers of Tzeentch. Flamers are scary. Warpfire tears units apart. Since they're Assault, they can shoot on the turn they Deep Strike down. Dropping down with 15 strength 4 shots, with a Herald of Tzeentch, who has Daemonic Gaze (free), Master of Sorcery and Warpfire. There aren't many units that stand a chance. Especially if said Herald is on a Disc/Chariot. It's also nice to have a small unit of Screamers to take out Tanks.

1 Daemon Prince 80 (Standard Prince model, occasionally used for Khorne)
1 Daemon Prince 80(Converted Deciever model, occasionally used for Tzeentch)

I never thought I'd see the day when someone took two princes instead of one Soul Grinder. A Soul Grinder with Phlegm is dropping AP3 Pie Plates, and that should never be passed on. Actually, wow...Now that I'm comparing costs, a Soul Grinder is better than a Leman Russ. TAKE ONE.

Two princes and a Soul Grinder I've seen though.

Thing is though, if my army gets screwed over by the dice gods and is forced to deep strike in the wrong order.. it doesn't really work. Anyone got any suggestions?

You'll find that all Daemon armies have that problem. Every single one. There is no solution. It's what makes Daemon armies fair. Similar to the Necron Phase Out rule. Similarly to Necrons, this same thing that makes them 'fair', horribly, horribly gimps them if the opponent knows what they're doing.

The only thing you can really do about it, is to make sure you've balanced your 'teams'. Unless you balance your teams so that you have a plan - of sorts - no matter what comes down, you may as well not have a plan at all. Because, if all your eggs are in one basket, Tzeentch will cackle with glee as he screws you over.

Icons. On fast-moving units. Your list has none.

Also, for those of you wondering; My armies are Orks, Chaos Daemons, Imperial Guard and the Inquisition (both kinds, and if/when Xenos officially comes out {rather than the one unit they have out now, which I also have, incidentally}, I'll be on that too).
...I also have Space Marines, but, since 5th came out and made all marines the same, I've benched my Salamanders.

[Selrahc]

My opinion is that Khorne is the second worst God. Slaanesh daemons are better in combat than Khorne ones. And I've proven it on a few occasions. Flesh Hounds are good, but, that's all I really like.

Possibly true, but I work with what I got. I've been a Chaos player with a focus on demons for a long time now. Back when you couldn't mix and match I decided to focus on Khorne.

MOAR ICONS! Having No Daemonettes will hurt you a bit.

Noted.

Where would you suggest I put them? In the initial wave only the horrors can take one, and they never survive.

My daemonettes come with an Icon, and when I get a bad Deep Strike, they can Fleet into where they need to be.

Can't I just use "run" to do initial repositioning? It doesn't let you charge, but you can't charge from a deep strike anyway.

Hearlds. Need. Mounts. Other than the usual benefits provided, Heralds are way too slow without one. A Herald of Khrone can't Fleet, and has no ranged weapons. He needs to be in combat. Make sure he can do so before he gets shot to death.

Uh... Herald of Khorne mounts don't make them faster? I could(And have) use the Bloodcrusher as a mounted

Personally, I'd put your Herald on a Disc of Tzeentch. A chariot would make him less squishy...But costs points. A fully tooled Herald of Tzeentch will rip the board apart

I'm not going to convert a chariot of Tzeentch, much as I would like to, just for purely practical reasons. Could maybe do a disk. I've got a sorceror on disk that I could cannibalize.

Why am I doing this though? The purpose of the Tzeentch herald isn't to get into combat, and if someone decides to charge him then let them. It'll hold them still until they get ripped up by the bloodletters.

As I've written the list, the purpose of the herald and his squad is to provide some anti tank ability, attempting to deepstrike to hit the side of rear armour of a tank, I'm not sure a disk would help that.

I never thought I'd see the day when someone took two princes instead of one Soul Grinder. A Soul Grinder with Phlegm is dropping AP3 Pie Plates, and that should never be passed on. Actually, wow...Now that I'm comparing costs, a Soul Grinder is better than a Leman Russ. TAKE ONE.

But it is so horribly isolated. Two demon princes can soak up a lot of fire that would otherwise be ripping troops to shreds. In that games where I've test run soul grinders they've generally just dropped a single pie plate and then been exploded for less investment of guns by the foe.

Admittedly my foes do have a slight fetish for melta weapons.

You'll find that all Daemon armies have that problem. Every single one. There is no solution. It's what makes Daemon armies fair. Similar to the Necron Phase Out rule. Similarly to Necrons, this same thing that makes them 'fair', horribly, horribly gimps them if the opponent knows what they're doing.

It doesn't really seem very fair.

[Cheesegear]

Where would you suggest I put them? In the initial wave only the horrors can take one, and they never survive.

Forget about 'initial wave' stuff. There is no initial wave. There's Team 1 and Team 2. Both have to be effective, or you'll lose because the die secretly hates you.

Heralds can take Icons, so, you might find points to put Icons on your Heralds, but, that gets expensive pretty quickly. How much faith do you have in your Heralds? I have lots in my Herald of Tzeentch, so giving him an Icon was never much of a bother.
Plauguebearers with Icons are pretty tough. But, they're slow, and not very useful except for capping table quarters (but they can't cap objectives, they're too slow). I'm away from Codex at the moment, but can't Bloodcrusher units take Icons? Those're tough.

Still away from Codex; Do Greater Daemons count as Icons? Or give some sort of benefit to their daemonic friends? They do not.

Can't I just use "run" to do initial repositioning? It doesn't let you charge, but you can't charge from a deep strike anyway.

You can. But, I've found that Deep Striking right next to the enemy isn't always the best idea. A lot of the times I've played, I've ended up with my side of the board looking like a regular deployment zone. But, I have a more shooting-focused list than you apparently do.
Deep Striking Daemonettes behind cover (but nowhere near cover, for obvious reasons), and then have them go 6-12" to the next set of cover to summon has it's benefits.

Uh... Herald of Khorne mounts don't make them faster?

But, they're tougher. If you can't go fast, you need to be able to take a Heavy Bolter to the face and keep on trucking. Juggernauts are very good at keeping your Herald alive.

Could maybe do a disk. I've got a sorceror on disk that I could cannibalize.

Discs are easy. Use a Screamer, put a dude on top. It even tells you to in the Screamers section (pg 43). But, like you, I use the WHFB Tzeentch-disc, with that funky blue bird-daemon sorcerer thingy on top.

Why am I doing this though? The purpose of the Tzeentch herald isn't to get into combat

No. It isn't. It's to fly around the battlefield unleashing warp-spawned bolts of daemonic fire on the enemy. And he does it extremely well.

As I've written the list, the purpose of the herald and his squad is to provide some anti tank ability, attempting to deepstrike to hit the side of rear armour of a tank, I'm not sure a disk would help that.

I'm always wary of Deep Striking near enemy units, if you scatter onto them, you're dead. If you don't shoot them to Hell on the turn you arrive, you're dead. A Herald of Tzeentch sucks at combat, sure, which is why he needs a unit of Flamers - or Horrors - in front of him to take charges for him. Then, on his Disc, he pisses off far away from Assault.

A Herald of Tzeentch is very effective - against everything. If your one purpose for him is to kill tanks, he wont have much fun. He comes with Daemonic Gaze for free, after all. AP3 multi-shot weapons are for winners. He excels vs. troops. He can take out a tank, but, it's not his strong point.

And Bolts have a very hard time with 'proper tanks' (like Land Raiders). As I said, Screamers are the Daemon's tank-killing unit of choice. Fast, with Meltabombs. Hard to go wrong.

In that games where I've test run soul grinders they've generally just dropped a single pie plate and then been exploded for less investment of guns by the foe.

...That's never happened to me.

Maybe because I don't deploy my valuable units anywhere near enemy anti-tank weapons. And I make sure my Grinder's first order of business is to take out said anti-tank weapons.

It doesn't really seem very fair.

Not to us, of course. But, if I was allowed to guarentee which units came down first, and which came second, and when my reserve rolls came through, and pinpoint Deep Striking accuracy, then, my opponent would be massacred.

Of course, the option is to disregard that rule and deploy normally. But, with the amount of shooting (not very much) and complete lack of Transports within the list, it would be a bad idea.

It's fair. Trust me. I've been on the recieving end of a 'perfect plan' (stupid dice ) and I didn't stand a chance.
What's worse, is that my opponent was using my list and my models (my list is apparently far more optimised than yours {not being restricted to model-choice helps}). And I've never been able to replicate the feat like he did. Grrr....

[Copper8642]

Anybody want to start up a Vassal game in the next... say, 2 and a half hours? Testing an Eldar list. And also just want to play.

[EleventhHour]

Anybody want to start up a Vassal game in the next... say, 2 and a half hours? Testing an Eldar list. And also just want to play.

Yup! I'll give you a run.

[Narazil]

Anyone up for some VASSAL? I've been hooked, but I prefer playing with giantitp people - they seem generally more intelligent than some of the "Be 100% sure on rules OR DIE" people currently online.

[Copper8642]

Maybe later, if u still can then. EleventhHour and I just finished a match, and I have to do some other stuff now. I'll post up a minor battle report later (will be edited into this post). OK, it's here:

Batrep: Eleventhhour vs Copper8642
This is all going to be sort of vague, and the army lists are probably not 100% correct.

Her:

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Command Platoon, MoO, Plasma Gun, Chimera
2 Platoons of Infantry Squads (1 full, one almost full), Plasma guns all around.
2 Lascannon teams.
10 Deep Strike Storm Troopers.
Vendetta
Hellhound

Me:

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Farseer, Runes of Witnessing, Spirit Stones, Guide, Fortune.
9 Striking Scorpions, Chainsabres, Stalker, Shadowstrike.
5 Fire Dragons, Fire Pike, Tank Hunters, Crack Shot, Wave Serpent had Missile Launcher.
8 Dire Avengers, 2 Shuriken Cannons, Defend.
10 Guardians, Missile Launcher, Spiritseer had Conceal.
3 Jetbike Guardians, Warlock had Embolden.
10 Warp Spiders, Spinneret Rifle, Withdraw.
5 Swooping Hawks, Sunrifle, Intercept, Skyleap.
Wraithlord, Scatter Laser, Missile Launcher.

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Map was "Town Square" in the Vassal Map Pack, a city map with some buildings and ruins. Capture and Control, Spearhead. I was in the bottom right, her the top left. Most of the match had the Guardians slowly working up the middle, hailing missiles at the entrenched Guard the whole time with help from the Wraithlord.
The jetbikes charged upwards and assaulted a platoon commander and two of his squads. The assault took a few turns, because the Guardsmen consistently made their 5+ saves against the Warlock (the Guardians died pretty quick). However, he finally killed a few, made his saves, and proceeded to Sweeping Advance and kill about 20 men. He later assaulted a different squad and died without killing anyone.
Spiders jumped to the left and all got roasted and boltered from the Hellhound with some help of a nearby Infantry Squad, 3+ failed a lot.
Dragons took out the Chimera, then mostly died. The Wave Serpent hit stuff with missiles, lost it's weapons, tank shocked through a bunch of squads, then when it died, it exploded and killed around 10 guardsmen.
Scorpions outflanked in and killed an infantry squad, then immobilized the hellhound and took off it's weaponry.
Avengers sat on my objective, got dropped on by Storm Troopers who killed all but two of them, but between them, a missile from the Wraithlord, and the farseer, the Storm Troopers died. Unfortunately, so did the Avengers.
Hawks forgot their grenade pack the first time I dropped them in, but they pinned some stuff and killed some lascannons (I pinned a lot of stuff that game between them and the missiles). They also dropped grenades the second time they came in and killed a good amount of guardsmen.

Frankly, she didn't have the best setup of squads, and the lascannon teams spent most of the game pinned or fleeing. It ended with the Guardians on her objective being threatened by the few remaining guardsmen, shooting them up, but then taking a few casualties in return, and fleeing off of the objective. No objectives held, tie. Counted it as a win for me, because I had a Farseer, Wraithlord, have a Guardian Squad, and Scorpions left. She had 2 Guardsmen and a Hellhound that couldn't move and had no weapons.

[Eldan]

If you want another small game, I'd be up for it in about 1-1.5 hours from now. Get some revenge

[Copper8642]

You talking to me? Because I do totally need to avenge that loss from 3 months ago. VENGEANCE! Either way, do you still play Eldar? Because that's what I've been trying recently. Also, what is "small," because I pretty much play 1500 generally.

[Myatar_Panwar]

I wouldn't mind trying out Vassal soon. Note that I have absolutely no idea on how it works. I downloaded it, opened an offline game, and was at a complete loss.

[Winterwind]

I wouldn't mind trying out Vassal soon. Note that I have absolutely no idea on how it works. I downloaded it, opened an offline game, and was at a complete loss.

Precisely the same for me, too. If some patient person wouldn't mind explaining to me how it works, I'd be glad to play some games with you.

[Narazil]

Whisperwind - I sent you a PM weeks ago, you didn't reply. Eldan gave me a good runthrough of the functions, I don't mind giving out lessons.

[Eldan]

Well, Narazil wanted to have a game, I didn't see his PM until fifteen minutes ago, assuming that he was playing against copper, so I'm without game again...

Anyway, it's getting a little late here, actually, for any game taking longer than maybe two hours, but if someone wanted to start pretty much right away, I'm online, waiting for comers. Otherwise, whoever wants to can find me online. I'm also up for explaining, and free all evenings (that's GMT+1 timezone) this week, and most likely all of the weekend.

It's a good feeling to win against people for once. On the table I constantly lost against my friends Tau. Horribly

By the way, do you people think we should start a vassal thread?

[JMobius]

Given the new legal status of Vassal 40K, I'd be hesitant to do so.

[Copper8642]

He can't update it anymore, but the server is still up, and people are still free to play it. So I'm not sure.

[Eldan]

Call it the "Warhammer40k battle report with Vassal" thread?

But yeah, probably not a good idea.

[JMobius]

Might be worth consulting with the mods on this one, then?

[Myatar_Panwar]

What? Is GW taking some sort of legal action against Vassal?

If not (or if so really) then there shouldn't be a problem with making a thread about it.

[Winterwind]

Whisperwind - I sent you a PM weeks ago, you didn't reply. Eldan gave me a good runthrough of the functions, I don't mind giving out lessons.

You mean me?
Huh... I totally do not recall getting any kind of PM regarding Vassal, neither from you nor anyone else...

Well, Narazil wanted to have a game, I didn't see his PM until fifteen minutes ago, assuming that he was playing against copper, so I'm without game again...

Anyway, it's getting a little late here, actually, for any game taking longer than maybe two hours, but if someone wanted to start pretty much right away, I'm online, waiting for comers. Otherwise, whoever wants to can find me online. I'm also up for explaining, and free all evenings (that's GMT+1 timezone) this week, and most likely all of the weekend.

No time today, but sometime during the week, gladly.

What? Is GW taking some sort of legal action against Vassal?

If not (or if so really) then there shouldn't be a problem with making a thread about it.

Yes. It's been discussed in detail at the end of the last thread.
In a few days, Vassal will stop being updated or available otherwise, though the servers remain online.

[Narazil]

Sorry, it was someone else with a similiar avatar.

[Copper8642]

We should try getting a campaign of Vassal battles going. Like, figure out what's going on, decide who's playing as who, then when people face eachother, connect it to the campaign somehow and post a batrep here. More likely, it would need it's own topic.
That would also probably be a suitable reason to make a topic, so two birds, 1 shuriken.

[Cheesegear]

What? Is GW taking some sort of legal action against Vassal?

They are. A Cease-and-Desist order.

I'm willing to bet that the servers will go down at some point in the near future.

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...Although it's odd that it's dated September 2008. Maybe only now is the order being carried out by the courts (or they issued a new one, probably the same). Also, Games Workshop has a signature.

[Copper8642]

I really hope the servers stay up. It's stated that they will. If they go down... I'm out of 40k for probably... a few years. So don't pessimist on my parade!

[JMobius]

I find it doubtful that the servers themselves are going to go down, as it is my understanding that they are generic servers used by Vassal for many other games as well. Its just support for the 3rd party 40K module that is being discontinued.

I just thought it seemed like a bit of a legal grey area to be discussing the usage of what is now technically a not legal module on GITP, and that we should be mindful of whether our hosts are okay with it.

[Copper8642]

I thank the two playgrounders I played today for staying for the whole game, because I just had someone give up on the second half (my half) of turn 1. Wasted a good bit of my life, right there.

Also shamelessly drawing attention to that campaign idea.

[Eldan]

I'd certainly be in for the campaign idea. I think I'll go make a post for registrations and idea collection.

Is it possible to create larger maps in Vassal? Because then we could have 4 player games.

[Eldan]

There ya go.

[Winterwind]

I particularly like the one with the 500-point-blocks, as my army lists are already written up that way.

That's the single worst way to write army lists though.

Mind elaborating why?

(taken from the other thread, as it has nothing to do with the topic at hand there)

EDIT: Nevermind, you explained it in the other thread while I was posting this.

I know. It seems like a good idea to new players, or players who take the same thing every game. But, for Greytooths like myself, my 500/1000/1500 lists look nothing alike. Although, admittedly, my 1500 list looks a lot like my 2000 list.

Modular lists still don't seem like that bad an idea to me; I simply have additional lists that are completely different, while also having my modular ones - which have the advantage that, depending on whatever game size ends up being played, I have a functional army in spite of the (yet) limited number of models in my possession.