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2009-07-29, 04:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k III - Hats for the Hat Throne
Also, I've been sitting on Vassal for a while and nobody is showing up. I'm pretty sure no-one around knows how to start a game - myself included.
But, once I'm able to setup my own game, I'll be right as...Sunshine.
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2009-07-29, 04:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k III - Hats for the Hat Throne
Starting a game is pretty simple, actually...
In the server list, there's an empty box, labeled "Create New Game". Just enter the name of your game there. Done.
To load a map, it seems you ahve to do it while starting up vassal. (I.e. when it asks you if you want to create an offline game or load an old one) At least, it didn't work any other way for me.Resident Vancian Apologist
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2009-07-29, 06:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k III - Hats for the Hat Throne
So, as I've mentioned in the other thread already, I had my first Vassal game yesterday, 500 points, against a Tau player.
My list was
SpoilerChaos Lord, terminator armour, daemon weapon - 145 pts.
6 Chaos Space Marines, meltagun - 100 pts.
5 Plague Marines, flamer - 120 pts.
5 Plague Marines, plasma gun - 130 pts.
Total: 495 pts. The Lord was attached to the Plague Marines with flamer.
My opponent had, I believe
SpoilerTau Commander Shas'el, crisis suit with burst cannon, missile pod, iridium plating, maybe something else
2 Crisis Suits, not entirely sure about the equipment; one had a plasma gun, the other some flamer-type weapon, and both had some other armament, too.
7 Fire Warriors
7 Fire Warriors in a Devilfish, led by a... Shas'ui? with some equipment
I may be forgetting some piece of equipment or the exact model numbers in his units.
It was an Annihilation match, and an annihilation it became - at the end of the 6th turn, all I had lost were 6 of my Plague Marines (4 from one squad, 2 from the other), while all he had left was the Devilfish.
He admittedly had some tremendous amounts of bad luck; while he'd often miss a lot more than probability would suggest, I'd more often than not cancel all the wounds he'd manage to shoot via armour or Feel No Pain. And as soon as my Lord with his Plague Marine escort got into assault range, he was utterly eradicated.
Now, my question... are Plague Marines seriously balanced? Those things just wouldn't die; no matter what he did, I just kept advancing, killing more with shooting than I lost - against a Tau! - and utterly destroyed him once in close combat.
So... are those things overpowered, and I should cut down on them for the sake of fair play? Or was it just bad luck/poor army composition on his part?LGBTitP Supporter
In a Wonderland they lie, Dreaming as the days go by, Dreaming as the summers die - Ever drifting down the stream - Lingering in the golden gleam - Life, what is it, but a dream?
- Lewis Carroll
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2009-07-29, 07:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k III - Hats for the Hat Throne
Yeah, Plague Marines are tough, but I'm not one to complain about (or even really know about) what is and isn't balanced.
Also, before, we were talking about how many units have 2+ armor, FNP, and Eternal Warrior? Ghazghull Thraka has a higher toughness, but if Fuegan is in the same army as a Farseer, he can reroll his 2+ save (anybody know if Fortune would allow FNP rerolls as well?)My last breath... ...is also my mintiest...
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Spoiler
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2009-07-29, 07:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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2009-07-29, 07:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k III - Hats for the Hat Throne
No, it specifies "failed saves." I don't know if FNP counts as a "save."
They worded it like that to include Invulnerable saves in it, but hey, it could make Fuegan a complete beast (who would die to a couple of power weapons, but hey).My last breath... ...is also my mintiest...
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Spoiler
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2009-07-29, 07:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k III - Hats for the Hat Throne
I'm pretty sure FNP is not a save.
LGBTitP Supporter
In a Wonderland they lie, Dreaming as the days go by, Dreaming as the summers die - Ever drifting down the stream - Lingering in the golden gleam - Life, what is it, but a dream?
- Lewis Carroll
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2009-07-29, 08:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
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2009-07-29, 08:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k III - Hats for the Hat Throne
The rulebook definitely describes Feel No Pain as an 'ability', not a save. Fortune won't work, which is a minor inconvinience but probably asking too much for such an awesome character
That is, really, all of the Phoenix Lords' biggest weakness - only one of them has an Invulnerable Save (Asuryan, whose other equipment doesn't really compare to the sheer awe-inspiring power of his compatriots).
Once an opponent takes it into his or her head to take them out, it's arguably a better option for a team of Heavy Weapon-using troops to spend a turn shooting at a 200point Phoenix Lord than a 100point Tank, and there's not an awful lot that the Eldar Player can do about it in terms of protecting them.
One thing I would wonder about, however... Feel No Pain cannot be used against "anything that causes Instant Death", however Fuegan is immune to Instant Death by being an Eternal Warrior.
NOTHING can cause ID against him, so he should technically still get to use his ability so long as the attacker isn't also using a Power/AP 1 or 2/etc weapons..?
Not that this helps much, and is probably asking too much even when it does occur, but the wording could be better
Now, my question... are Plague Marines seriously balanced? Those things just wouldn't die; no matter what he did, I just kept advancing, killing more with shooting than I lost - against a Tau! - and utterly destroyed him once in close combat.
So... are those things overpowered, and I should cut down on them for the sake of fair play? Or was it just bad luck/poor army composition on his part?
Even at 500 points, Tau are capable or fielding weapons that cause FNP to fail. (Twin-linked) Plasma Rifles on all of his Crisis Suits, for example, or a single Railgun-toting Broadside instead of the Devilfish (why on earth would he want to get closer to a Chaos army? ) would all have done it, but he doesn't seem to have taken any.
And of course, when Nuffle refuses to smile, there's little anyone can do about it. Karma dictates that he will in future manage a 'walkover' against someone else with a seemingly ordinary army, but for now it's his turn to be the Yang to your Yin.
The only reason I'd say that Plague Marines are 'unfair' is that they can be taken as a Troop type in such small numbers. The only things to compare with them in terms of survivability are Wraithguard - which are hideously expensive and are literally unplayable in a 500 point game - but that aside they're no worse than Thousand Sons for shooting lots, or Khorne Berzerkers for being good in Close Combat.
That's just Chaos all over - you had powerful, expensive models, and he had twice as many models on the table as you. Some days, you just have to roll with the punchesLast edited by Wraith; 2009-07-29 at 08:39 AM.
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RPG Characters What I Done Played As (Explained Badly)
17 Things I Learned About 40k By Playing Dark Heresy
Tales of a Role-Play Gamer - Horrible Optimisation
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2009-07-29, 08:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k III - Hats for the Hat Throne
Actually, Feel No Pain specifically states that if a weapon is strong enough for instant death, even if they're immune to the instant death part, they don't get a FNP roll.
My last breath... ...is also my mintiest...
Avatar credit goes to a strictly platonic friend.
Former Avatar credit goes to Howl.
Spoiler
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2009-07-29, 08:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k III - Hats for the Hat Throne
Oh yeah, so it does. Y'know, I have the book open in front of me, and the information just didn't filter into my brain properly.
Thanks for pointing that out, Copper. I was getting all excited about finding a 'bug', too!Last edited by Wraith; 2009-07-29 at 08:41 AM.
~ CAUTION: May Contain Weasels ~
RPG Characters What I Done Played As (Explained Badly)
17 Things I Learned About 40k By Playing Dark Heresy
Tales of a Role-Play Gamer - Horrible Optimisation
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2009-07-29, 08:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k III - Hats for the Hat Throne
Happens to me all the time.
My last breath... ...is also my mintiest...
Avatar credit goes to a strictly platonic friend.
Former Avatar credit goes to Howl.
Spoiler
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2009-07-29, 08:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k III - Hats for the Hat Throne
I don't have my rulebooks with me, but doesn't it work like:
- FNP is not allowed against attacks causing Instant Death
- Attack causing Instant Death hurts Fuegan, because of the attack's property FNP is not allowed
- Eternal Warrior then prevents him from dying
?
As in, it doesn't matter whether the model with FNP can suffer Instant Death or not, what counts for FNP is whether the attack itself carries the special property 'Causes Instant Death'?
EDIT: Royally ninja'd.
Also, I thought FNP was allowed against attacks with AP 1/2, merely not against attacks which explicitly and generally state they do not allow any armour saves period (like powerweapons or rending)?
If that's incorrect, I might have made a serious mistake in that game yesterday (though I think all of his plasma gun shots that hit and wounded managed to kill models anyway)...
Mmm, okay. My conscience is relieved, then.
Hmmm... in that case, I'll give consideration to turning the two 5 model squads into one 7 model squad with champion. Much, much fluffier, and not as unfair in the regard you mentioned.
Well, technically, I believe we had just about the same number of models on the battlefield... (17 for me, 17+1 vehicle for him)Last edited by Winterwind; 2009-07-29 at 08:51 AM.
LGBTitP Supporter
In a Wonderland they lie, Dreaming as the days go by, Dreaming as the summers die - Ever drifting down the stream - Lingering in the golden gleam - Life, what is it, but a dream?
- Lewis Carroll
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2009-07-29, 09:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k III - Hats for the Hat Throne
Well that was part of his problem then. There isn't much that shouldn't be outnumbering CSMs by a fair amount. Especially not plague marines.
He must have put too many points in his HQ and crisis suits.
Plague marines die, but not easily. They are designed to, and cost accordingly, to live through fire from much greater numbers, and if you don't have those numbers you aren't going to be killing them fast enough.
As for FNP it states that anything that doesn't allow an armor save or anything that causes instant death do not allow FNP. So Str3 AP1/2 doesn't allow it, but if you happened to have a str9 AP3-6 weapon against T5 they will still get it.
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2009-07-29, 09:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k III - Hats for the Hat Throne
Yeah, most likely. They did have a fairly long list of equipment, each of them.
Mmm, okay... I've been doing it wrong, then.
...wait, Plague Marines only have an armour save of 3+, so shouldn't an AP3 weapon prevent their FNP as well?
(also, they have only T4(5), so an S9 shot would instant-kill them anyway)LGBTitP Supporter
In a Wonderland they lie, Dreaming as the days go by, Dreaming as the summers die - Ever drifting down the stream - Lingering in the golden gleam - Life, what is it, but a dream?
- Lewis Carroll
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2009-07-29, 09:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k III - Hats for the Hat Throne
If you had Plague Marines in a 500 pt list and he still didn't outnumber you then there's no doubt about it, he was doing it wrong.
Mmm, okay... I've been doing it wrong, then.
...wait, Plague Marines only have an armour save of 3+, so shouldn't an AP3 weapon prevent their FNP as well?
(also, they have only T4(5), so an S9 shot would instant-kill them anyway)
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2009-07-29, 10:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k III - Hats for the Hat Throne
Paraphrasing the rulebook (I don't have it close at hand), FNP is allowed against attacks that lacks the following abilities:
AP1/2
Monstrous creature close combat attacks
Power weapons (including fists)
Instant kill
Succesfull rending (getting that 6 to wound)
anythign that states "armour saves are never allowed".
If ti was that you weren't allowed FNP if the shot goes through your armour, Ork Painboys would be seriously rotten, what with Nobs (who they accompany) only having 6+ Armour...
(also, they have only T4(5), so an S9 shot would instant-kill them anyway)GENERATION 15: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig and add 1 to the generation. social experiment.
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2009-07-29, 10:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k III - Hats for the Hat Throne
I'm going to have to steal that description of FNP for when I play again, we never really know how to work it.
I feel I'm missing out on spmething by not having any Plague Marines, though Thousand Sons seem to have just as good staying power, at least in my regular games against those 'orrible Space Marines.
Excellent Elan & Yoshi avatar by Mr Saturn
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2009-07-29, 10:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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2009-07-29, 10:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k III - Hats for the Hat Throne
They shoot significantly better though I probably miss that rather bothersome sluggishness because I tend to start them in a Rhino, so they at least get one turn of fast movement before their transport get's blown to smithareens.
EDIT - While I'm at it, what's Vassal?Last edited by banjo1985; 2009-07-29 at 10:20 AM.
Excellent Elan & Yoshi avatar by Mr Saturn
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2009-07-29, 10:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k III - Hats for the Hat Throne
Alright, thanks for the detailed explanations of FNP. I think I finally fully understand it.
It's a virtual simulation of a gaming table, allowing one to play tabletop games via Internet. We have more than a dozen Playgrounders playing WH40k all the time via Vassal.
Here is Vassal,
here is the Warhammer 40k module, that contains all the WH40k models as well as an interface for easier play,
and here are some maps.
Also, because of a Cease-and-Desist order from Games Workshop, Vassal 40k will no longer be available for download since tomorrow, so if you want it, you'd better hurry with getting it.LGBTitP Supporter
In a Wonderland they lie, Dreaming as the days go by, Dreaming as the summers die - Ever drifting down the stream - Lingering in the golden gleam - Life, what is it, but a dream?
- Lewis Carroll
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2009-07-29, 10:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k III - Hats for the Hat Throne
Ah right, thanks for that. Having now looked at the Gaming thread list properly I now see that there's a whole thread dedicated to this program, so I must have failed my Spot Check.
Excellent Elan & Yoshi avatar by Mr Saturn
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2009-07-29, 11:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k III - Hats for the Hat Throne
Princess in the streets.
Princess in the sheets.
Don't touch me I'm royalty.
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2009-07-29, 01:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k III - Hats for the Hat Throne
By 'against which no armour save can be taken', you also include Perils of the Warp and failed Dangerous Terrain tests, although I mst admit I'm hard pressed to think of a character that has FNP and is also a psyker and/or rides a (jet)bike. I think Mephiston is the only person who would have to worry about such a thing.
Funny thing is, the FNP description also says 'armour saves' and NOT 'invulnerable saves'. I'm highly suspicious of this, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was changed to include both in an errata somewhere. Otherwise it'd be possible to take an Invulnerable Save and a FNP test against most of the things on the list, which is somewhat defeating the objective.
In other news, I'm soon going to be starting a mini-tournament with some friends who are wanting to start playing 40k. We're making 500 point armies and moving up as they make bigger armies, which isn't a problem for me as I already have some 4000pts kicking around not being used.
My enemies are going to be Orks and Tyranids, and then either Witch Hunters of Dark Eldar depending on what the Player desides later. Here's my army list - I think I'm in with a reasonable chance here:
SpoilerHQ - Eldar Autarch with Reaper Launcher
Troop - 10x Guardians with Missile Launcher
Troop - 10x Guardians with Missile Launcher
Troop - 5x Rangers (1 upgraded to a Pathfinder - I had 5 points spare)
Heavy - 3x Dark Reapers
I don't often play out-and-out shooty armies, so it'll be a nice change. That, and taking a pair of Wraithlords would be unfair, I thinkLast edited by Wraith; 2009-07-29 at 01:06 PM.
~ CAUTION: May Contain Weasels ~
RPG Characters What I Done Played As (Explained Badly)
17 Things I Learned About 40k By Playing Dark Heresy
Tales of a Role-Play Gamer - Horrible Optimisation
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2009-07-29, 01:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k III - Hats for the Hat Throne
Can you upgrade single Rangers?
My last breath... ...is also my mintiest...
Avatar credit goes to a strictly platonic friend.
Former Avatar credit goes to Howl.
Spoiler
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2009-07-29, 01:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k III - Hats for the Hat Throne
No, that's a copy/paste error. It should say "I wish I could take..." which I missed off.
I'm slightly concerned that the army is going to get a severe kicking if anything manages to get into close combat, but such is the nature of playing against Orks or Tyranids. I don't really want to make a large alteration to include some Scorpions (probably drop the Dark Reapers or the Scouts and make the Autarch suitable to join them with a mandiblaster/chainsword), but I might keep that on my sideboard just in case my first couple of games go particularly disasterously.~ CAUTION: May Contain Weasels ~
RPG Characters What I Done Played As (Explained Badly)
17 Things I Learned About 40k By Playing Dark Heresy
Tales of a Role-Play Gamer - Horrible Optimisation
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2009-07-29, 02:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-07-29, 02:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k III - Hats for the Hat Throne
It clearly says "Ranger squads that...", so I'd say no.
Resident Vancian Apologist
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2009-07-29, 05:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k III - Hats for the Hat Throne
Tau commanders with a certain piece of wargear comes to mind (in part due to me having lost one, without said wargear but still, by trying to jump into a house... never again).
Funny thing is, the FNP description also says 'armour saves' and NOT 'invulnerable saves'. I'm highly suspicious of this, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was changed to include both in an errata somewhere. Otherwise it'd be possible to take an Invulnerable Save and a FNP test against most of the things on the list, which is somewhat defeating the objective.
However (in case I misunderstood you), if your armor save isn't allowed (say, due to being hit by a power weapon, even if you have an invulnerable save, there is no FNP, due to violating one of the "criteria" (see my earlier post)GENERATION 15: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig and add 1 to the generation. social experiment.
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2009-07-29, 07:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k III - Hats for the Hat Throne
Well, gonna start collecting soon. I'm getting back into the game folks. Also, I have a commander worthy of leading my company.