Avatar Battle Royale Discussion Thread XXV: The Future (Imperfect) is...Soon

[Squark]

That doesn't stop most Hydras from being dumb as rocks , but I'll withdraw from the conversation as I have no idea what you're talking about.


It occurs to me that part of out balance issues stem from the fact that we have three distinct tech levels-

On the bottom, we have the High Magic Avbaroy in relative medieval stasis.

In the middle, we have the moderate levels of magic used by the UNA grunts, with 1914-era tech,


On the top, we have the usually high magic Sovice and some of Schizotech, along with Squark*, all of whom posses technology well beyond modern standards.

*Of course, Squark doesn't use it, as he's deskridden**, for the most part.
**Like bedridden, but, you know, with a desk***.
***Except when he leaves to get more coffee.

[Green-Shirt Q]

Wow. I don't even have the patience to read through the past couple pages to see what the hell kind of completely meaningless things you people are arguing about now.

Seriously. What the heck?

[Calamity]

They're arguing about FI, Q. You know, like they have been doing for several threads?

[Lyinginbedmon]

That doesn't stop most Hydras from being dumb as rocks , but I'll withdraw from the conversation as I have no idea what you're talking about.

Polymus is an awakened 12-headed pyrohydra, he's essentially the dictator of Regen and holds power by intimidation and brute strength. As such, if he wants to make everything else in Regen do something he needs to ensure that they'll either be easily forced into it or enjoy it.

Despite his brutish exterior (Used to control those around him), he's not an idiot. He's one of the smarter people on the island in fact, including Herea, and thinks very carefully about each political decision he makes, so he wouldn't want a conflict between the UNA and Regen, he's done enough so far to keep Regen from invading Herea.

[Khaeta]

Finally finished character bio:

Spoiler

Show

Past:
Hoss Desta was born in a village on the edge of the empire. His mother was an elf, his father was a human warrior of some repute. Unfortunately, being a town mostly under the radar of the UNA, his mother died while giving birth due to lack of proper medical care. Hoss was then brought up by his father, who trained him in the use of various weapons, adding guns as they became more prevalent, and taught him how to survive in the large, complicated world. He left his father to seek his fortune, and ended up employed as a mercenary for the UNA.

Present: Hoss is now a well known mercenary for the UNA. He is rather high up, and has developed a fearsome reputation as a heartless killer (think Boba Fett) and a skilled fighter. He is rumored to have some experience with spellcasting, but such reports have yet to be confirmed. Though generally satisfied with his job, he has a strict code of ethics and would immediately terminate his employment if asked to do something drastically against his nature. He is not terribly picky about who he works for, but he would rather be on the side he considers to be right. However, in the current world, he is unsure about which side is truly in the "right"...

[Mad Mask]

MM-

1. You can't go and mix D&D rules and physics/common sense. You have to pick one. Also, the above argument was meant to point out the necessity of the UNA to rely on high-level mages for enchanting weapons and countering beasties of sorts. The problem is, even if we go with the UNA having as many high-level characters as Faerun (before 4e butchered it. There's one thing Lying and I can agree on. Whoever writes 4e flavor should be fired. preferably from a canon), that's still not enough to have one within one minutes response time to the resistance. And someone like, say, Jake Grant (Near-Epic Duskblade) or Oliver (Near-epic Swordsage), could do A LOT of damage in a minute, and then teleport or be teleported out.

2. You also need to factor in that, despite all your glowing praise of the UNA's training, if you go with d20 rulesset, your average peace keeper and the average UNA soldier is a level 1, maybe level 2 warrior. That's the way the world works.

Ultimately, I'm trying to get it across that you're giving the UNA too much of a god mode sue. Yes, I understand that the ALF is severely outgunned, but its starting to encroach on my willing suspense of disbelief, and making me wonder, "Why on earth are the Sovice sitting on their omnipotent backsides? They should have wiped the resistance out within the first year!" I don't mean to be offensive, but this is starting to bug me, and I get the feeling I'm not the only one getting a bit exasperated. Again, I don't mean to be insulting. I'm just trying to be frank, here.*[/QUOTE]

I accept your criticism. I'm sorry that I've caused the wrong impression, making the UNA "über powerful" is not my attention. It's just that people seem to say that "everything magical is better than technology, the UNA needs lots of high-level mages". That should not be so. What I'm trying to say is that magical beasts and all that sort (excluding really powerful ones, like Balors and Pit Fiends) shouldn't be something that can take out well-drilled UNA Peacekeepers rather easily. Scorching rays shouldn't pierce through tank armour, and ankhegs shouldn't be able to take a tank by itself. Beholders shouldn't be able to turn whole tanks to dust and need carpet bombing to take them out. It's not the UNA who is too powerful, it's them.

Also, we shouldn't use the full d20 ruleset for Avbaroy. There's too much of a difference between a low level and a high level character, making a previously deadly soldier mere cannon fodder that poses no threat to the hero. I say we screw the D&D ruleset for measuring power-level, it's absolutely broken in these kind of situations.

[Felyndiira]

I accept your criticism. I'm sorry that I've caused the wrong impression, making the UNA "über powerful" is not my attention. It's just that people seem to say that "everything magical is better than technology, the UNA needs lots of high-level mages". That should not be so. What I'm trying to say is that magical beasts and all that sort (excluding really powerful ones, like Balors and Pit Fiends) shouldn't be something that can take out well-drilled UNA Peacekeepers rather easily. Scorching rays shouldn't pierce through tank armour, and ankhegs shouldn't be able to take a tank by itself. Beholders shouldn't be able to turn whole tanks to dust and need carpet bombing to take them out. It's not the UNA who is too powerful, it's them.

I have a small question. It might be because my knowledge of Avbaroy is still limited, but will balors, beholders, and the like actually be a common occurrence in Future Imperfect? I mean, I know that there are regular epic casters and reality bending in FFF, but I was under the impression that everyone is getting major power-downs for FI, so I thought that no one should be gating extra-planar entities on any regular basis.

I might be wrong, so just to make it all clear first.

[Khaeta]

I have a small question. It might be because my knowledge of Avbaroy is still limited, but will balors, beholders, and the like actually be a common occurrence in Future Imperfect? I mean, I know that there are regular epic casters and reality bending in FFF, but I was under the impression that everyone is getting major power-downs for FI, so I thought that no one should be gating extra-planar entities on any regular basis.

I might be wrong, so just to make it all clear first.

Good question actually. I'm curious approximately what level our characters should be, in terms of abilities and power level. (obviosuly this is mostly in reference to my character, the merc. He's some kind of rogue/sorceror or maybe beguiler, what sorts of spells might he have if he's got a fair amount of experiance?)

[kpenguin]

*suggests converting to M&M for a ruleset*

Seriously though, I think that D&D barely represents settings built for the rules well, let alone a setting as diverse as Avbaroy. If I were ever to run a game based in Avbaroy, I'd be using the M&M ruleset rather than D&D.

EDIT: Also, about the dragons, I'd rather keep the dragons out of this, if you don't mind. Remember, after the Age of Dragons, the dragons left the world in shame. Nobody knows where they went or where they are now, only that the Talisman can still control them no matter where they are. Now, any dragons left in Avbaroy are rebels or exiles or malcontents of some sort.

[Squark]

I have a small question. It might be because my knowledge of Avbaroy is still limited, but will balors, beholders, and the like actually be a common occurrence in Future Imperfect? I mean, I know that there are regular epic casters and reality bending in FFF, but I was under the impression that everyone is getting major power-downs for FI, so I thought that no one should be gating extra-planar entities on any regular basis.

I might be wrong, so just to make it all clear first.

No, no they won't. I was just trying to make a point.

Ultimately, I think MM got were I was coming from, and for the most part, he's right. But even if we do accept that the UNA could operate for the most part without magic, I see no reason why they SHOULD, in that respect. I mean, why throw away a perfectly good resource? And to be honest, I doubt this is actually going to be a problem.


The way I see it, the Peacekeepers and the army are used to counter day-to-day resistance from non-ALF stuff, and to insulate civilians from a resistance attack, while against the mid-high level characters of the ALF, the UNA relies on commando teams and the Mercenaries (I mean, there has to be SOME reason they hired them, and that's the only one that made sense).

Oh, and I think I owe MM another apology. I was a bit overstressed yesterday, and I think I took a bit of it out on him. Honestly, any stress relieved by going on vacation is mitigated by the preparation for said trip.


EDIT: ^KP, I've been under the impression that Lavridor's dragon government managed to reclaim the talisman, and, one way or another, brought the dragons back into the world. I could be dead wrong, though.

[Ninja Chocobo]

That's one thing that doesn't make sense. A squishy human (naked except for his sword) with no magical abilities except for being high-level can survive a full-on disintegrate by the beholder and could even kill him but a frakkin' 30 ton steel monster with machine guns and cannons doesn't stand a chance.

From the SRD:

When used against an object, the ray simply disintegrates as much as one 10-foot cube of nonliving matter. Thus, the spell disintegrates only part of any very large object or structure targeted.

Ten feet is pretty big. Probably at least half a tank.

[Mad Mask]

From the SRD:



Ten feet is pretty big. Probably at least half a tank.

That's completely overpowered if we use it in FI. Tank armour is a lot stronger than living materials. If we don't ditch that rule the Peacekeepers are going to glue crocodiles to their tanks.

Let's say that a disintegrate can crack tank armour, but not turn it to dust.

[Mina Kobold]

I'm a little annoyed by the fact that you guys consider armor to be equal to immunity to bullets, let me tell you what I have learned of the end of the knights (the time in real life when armor and heavy medieval weapons became too impractical to use) guns was a new invention using an extremely weak and primitive black powder (my guess is less than 10% the power of 20th century gun powder) and yet armor thick enough to withstand those bullets were too heavy to even walk in, now a WW1 era gun is so powerful people die almost immediately when shot and so powerful that it rendered the soldiers insane after the wars. You tell me that dragons whose scales can't withstand more than a few sword hits (a sword was aimed at the gabs in the armor in fights because it takes more than 10 hits to make a hole in it) before it's hurt can withstand machine guns without getting a scratch?

I agree with Pen and Mad, DnD rules might be good but they just won't go in FI, I also agree that magic shouldn't be seen as superior to technology, it took three years to make the A-bomb from scratch, magic has been researched for millenias and they haven't gotten near that.

No harm or offence is meant by this post

[Mad Mask]

I think that magic should still be powerful, but compared to technology, very rare. A delayed blast fireball with energy switched to force is similar to a concussion grenade, but the former requires a high-level spell-caster while the latter is cheap and can be used by almost anybody. Similarly, save-or-die spells can accomplish the same thing as rifles (if high-level enough, more efficiently) but can only be cast a few times per day by a special few individuals, while rifles can be reloaded as long as you have bullets, and almost anyone has the capacity to use them with a little training.

[Mina Kobold]

I think that magic should still be powerful, but compared to technology, very rare. A delayed blast fireball with energy switched to force is similar to a concussion grenade, but the former requires a high-level spell-caster while the latter is cheap and can be used by almost anybody. Similarly, save-or-die spells can accomplish the same thing as rifles (if high-level enough, more efficiently) but can only be cast a few times per day by a special few individuals, while rifles can be reloaded as long as you have bullets, and almost anyone has the capacity to use them with a little training.

I agree, it sounds like a good way to me.

City destroying magical powers just don't fit the setting, especially not when the UNA are working against magic.

[-skimmer-]

I dunno, it seemed to me that spellcasters (even low level) are quite common thing in Avbaroy....actually, I can't recall any character that doesn't have access to some sort of magical power
(And yes, spontaneous resuscitation counts as "some sort of magical power")

How so many mages could just disappear?

[memnarch]

I agree, it sounds like a good way to me.

City destroying magical powers just don't fit the setting, especially not when the UNA are working against magic.

Um, could you give an example of City destroying magic, besides Lying's Exafts spell?

[Mad Mask]

Locate City Bomb, of course. Mentioned, but not used, by Tvor in an early Alphantica comic.

I dunno, it seemed to me that spellcasters (even low level) are quite common thing in Avbaroy....actually, I can't recall any character that doesn't have access to some sort of magical power

The characters of FFF do not represent the population of Avbaroy at large. It's just that most successful adventurers are spell-casters, because other types get killed rather easily.

(And yes, spontaneous resuscitation counts as "some sort of magical power")

No it doesn't, it's a genetic ability brought by cartoon physics.

How so many mages could just disappear?

After seeing that UNA technology does the same thing as a lot of spells without requiring years of study, magical research seems less attractive for the common folk. Remember, it is rare for wizards to be more than level 5, when the really good stuff starts to appear. It takes a lot of commitment and risks.

[Felyndiira]

That's completely overpowered if we use it in FI. Tank armour is a lot stronger than living materials. If we don't ditch that rule the Peacekeepers are going to glue crocodiles to their tanks.

Let's say that a disintegrate can crack tank armour, but not turn it to dust.

How many people could really cast disintegrate, though? From what I've seen, most of the really high-level (12+) mages should be PCs in high positions, so they shouldn't really be commonplace. In addition, anyone using an armor-piercing round should be able to disable a tank (by shooting the drivers), someone with a bazooka can blow chunks out of it, and a well-placed claymore could similarly disable its operation; I don't see disintegrate as being that bad when there are other ways - cheap ways, too, if we're to assess technology as "common" - to tear down the tank using other means.

And making magic completely equal to technology brings up an earlier stated problem: no one would logically use anything else if they're given such readily available technology. ALF would have no reason to treasure its spellcasters if finger of death did as much damage as a rifle bullet and wall of force can be easily gunned down by one soldier operating a cannon/rpg/assault rifle; it could just as easily replace a mage with a soldier holding a few fragmentation gernades and a riot shield, and lose no effectiveness in the process.

Thus, now we have brought the power of guns and other technology to a level on-par with magic (and above, when you make grenades as common as rice), which brings up the old question of "why would anyone study magic or use a sword?"

[memnarch]

Locate City Bomb, of course. Mentioned, but not used, by Tvor in an early Alphantica comic.


...

Bringing the count up to two city killing spells. Not that many it seems.


Also, Disintregrate allows a fortitude save for objects for partial damage.

Disintegrate Transmutation
Level: Destruction 7, Sor/Wiz 6
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect: Ray
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude partial (object)
Spell Resistance: Yes


A thin, green ray springs from your pointing finger. You must make a successful ranged touch attack to hit. Any creature struck by the ray takes 2d6 points of damage per caster level (to a maximum of 40d6). Any creature reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by this spell is entirely disintegrated, leaving behind only a trace of fine dust. A disintegrated creature’s equipment is unaffected.

When used against an object, the ray simply disintegrates as much as one 10- foot cube of nonliving matter. Thus, the spell disintegrates only part of any very large object or structure targeted. The ray affects even objects constructed entirely of force, such as forceful hand or a wall of force, but not magical effects such as a globe of invulnerability or an antimagic field.

A creature or object that makes a successful Fortitude save is partially affected, taking only 5d6 points of damage. If this damage reduces the creature or object to 0 or fewer hit points, it is entirely disintegrated.

Only the first creature or object struck can be affected; that is, the ray affects only one target per casting.

Arcane Material Component: A lodestone and a pinch of dust.

[-skimmer-]

The characters of FFF do not represent the population of Avbaroy at large. It's just that most successful adventurers are spell-casters, because other types get killed rather easily.


No it doesn't, it's a genetic ability brought by cartoon physics.



After seeing that UNA technology does the same thing as a lot of spells without requiring years of study, magical research seems less attractive for the common folk. Remember, it is rare for wizards to be more than level 5, when the really good stuff starts to appear. It takes a lot of commitment and risks.

Well, we also have guns, shotbuns, rifles and stuff but some of us still do martial arts. It doesn't really matter if it's for self-defense, to keep yourself in good condition or from pure boredom.
The point is: When you're trying to achieve utopia, happy citizens get easily bored and have plenty of time for stuff, and being able to shoot light from fingers (dancing lights 0lvl spell) is cool enough to begin study magic, just for fun, even if it's the best you'll ever do.

I can't pretty much imagine more than half of UNA population armed with atleast one 0lvl spell, lot of them even as full 1lvl wizards themselves.

[Mina Kobold]

I dunno, it seemed to me that spellcasters (even low level) are quite common thing in Avbaroy....actually, I can't recall any character that doesn't have access to some sort of magical power
(And yes, spontaneous resuscitation counts as "some sort of magical power")

How so many mages could just disappear?

Zhihai (youngest son of Keveak) White and the crazy old man (from Plot 3) of my characters and I think Salmon counts too.

@-Skimmer-: Contrary to what you might think it requires a lot of work to learn magic (wizards have the highest starting age you know) and it can be dangerous too, I can see that learning weak spells like cleaning spells and dancing lights can be a fun hobby but I don't think many has the power to use combat magic (they would also need a teacher and with the UNA being against strong magic finding one could be a problem)

[Khaeta]

I think the one thing people are confused about is the exact argument here:

My thoughts for swords beating guns was not to say that magic was superior to technology, but to come up with a reason that swords are still used. Just to sum up the "pro-magic" side (as far as I can tell), yes, guns are better, normally, so why would one continue to use swords? The point is not to make magic overpowering, the point is to make it at least equal to technology so that it doesn't just become obsolete ('cause I think there are plenty of people here, myself included, who want to keep this primarily fantasy and not just some historical fiction piece).

[Mina Kobold]

I think the one thing people are confused about is the exact argument here:

My thoughts for swords beating guns was not to say that magic was superior to technology, but to come up with a reason that swords are still used. Just to sum up the "pro-magic" side (as far as I can tell), yes, guns are better, normally, so why would one continue to use swords? The point is not to make magic overpowering, the point is to make it at least equal to technology so that it doesn't just become obsolete ('cause I think there are plenty of people here, myself included, who want to keep this primarily fantasy and not just some historical fiction piece).

I have nothing against magic, I want magic and technology to be equal too and argued for guns to be superior to swords and arrows on equal terms, I also wants there to be a reason to swords still being used but I didn't like making a normal sword over-power guns easily, I think there was some good ideas but nobody seem to like them

[Mad Mask]

What makes guns less fantasy than swords ?

Also: I'm saying that the common technologies of FI are superior to most low-level spells, meaning that until they reach upper-middle levels wizards aren't that useful. The ALF only remains the threat that it is because of epic casters like Lyinginbedmon (who has built powerful "magitek" devices and vehicles, such as the Citadel and other neat toys, before he became afflicted with his illness).

So magic can be a threat against average FI tech, but only if it is sufficiently high level.

[Threeshades]

What makes guns less fantasy than swords ?

Perceived as less fantay because of their recent relevance in reality I would guess. They are just more credible.

And spellcasting is also pretty weak compared to swords at low level.

[Mad Mask]

Perceived as less fantay because of their recent relevance in reality I would guess. They are just more credible.

Effective guns appeared during the late middle ages, where fantasy gets its image of knights in shining armour.

And spellcasting is also pretty weak compared to swords at low level.

Yes. But more advanced weapons such as hand grenades and gatling guns push the level at which magic becomes effective even more.

[-skimmer-]

Zhihai (youngest son of Keveak) White and the crazy old man (from Plot 3) of my characters and I think Salmon counts too.

Well, Salmon had magical amulet, White's an alien whose father has earth at command which definitely counts as access to magic and I guess she has some magic items too, and Zhihai has a dragon in bloodline so little magic still flows through his veins, and in Plot 3 most of technology was also supplied by magic...

@-Skimmer-: Contrary to what you might think it requires a lot of work to learn magic (wizards have the highest starting age you know) and it can be dangerous too, I can see that learning weak spells like cleaning spells and dancing lights can be a fun hobby but I don't think many has the power to use combat magic (they would also need a teacher and with the UNA being against strong magic finding one could be a problem)

Nah, when I started to talk about combat magic? We're talking about citizens here. My point was about that oveall number of spellcasters and therefore use of magic can only increase, especialy in everyday life. The only problem about being really strong would be only lack of information about stronger spells, but for example divine magic is not limited this way.....

High lvl spellcasters are proof of how strong a mere human can be + there are certain events from history which shows how strong certain wizards(like lying) may be. That alone is enough motivation to try it, don't you think?

[The Gremlin]

Effective guns appeared during the late middle ages, where fantasy gets its image of knights in shining armour.



Yes. But more advanced weapons such as hand grenades and gatling guns push the level at which magic becomes effective even more.

Yeah, guns are better than bows, by a long shot. That's why we still use guns.
and why would they outlaw explosive bullets? Not that they're (the people)inhumane, but as far as I know, we took a while to outlaw them. It's only been 15 years, and with a resistance that won't follow their laws, it seems more reasonable to fight fire with fire.

[Felyndiira]

Yes. But more advanced weapons such as hand grenades and gatling guns push the level at which magic becomes effective even more.

Just as a gauge, then; how high of a level of magic does one need to acquire to at least score an advantage over this advanced tech? I'm pretty sure that, outgunned as the ALF might be, they would have been quite instantly annihilated if a normal mook carrying a SMG and a few grenades can outgun a 11th level (middle) wizard. It makes magic completely obsolete.

I understand that there's Igor and epic EAftS, but I'm pretty sure that the use of spellcasting would be hardly defensible if they can't even effectively defeat a single mook soldier in one-to-one combat. If you need starmantle and prismatic wall to kill a single mook with technology, it removes pretty much any bit of threat from any PC spellcaster.