Avatar Battle Royale Discussion Thread XXV: The Future (Imperfect) is...Soon

[-skimmer-]

There's also the fact that the ALF doesn't have access to a lot of spell-casters and treasures its remaining ones. Should one of them arrive at the scene, elite Peacekeepers with automatic rifles will be dispatched (if he's really powerful), or the regular peacekeepers will shoot grenades at him, which he has absolutely no chance of surviving.

Actually, gaseous form's like 3rd level spell and it should be enough to survive this kind of explosions.....
(Yes, it's one of Becalels core spells)

EDIT: A grenade or a rocket will take care of the skeleton rather easily. Let's not forget that the Peacekeepers have more than just rifles and revolvers.

Ah yes, that's why they should operate under smokescreen or poison gas as they really need eyes to see (atleast skeletons I know don't have to see), and in the best scenario buried under ground to avoid explosions until someone steps on them. That should counter attack rocket launchers very well.

[Squark]

But what if it were in a civillian area, or by something that would make a much bigger explosion if carpet bombed? Say, an oil refinery, or a proto-gas station (such things did exist as early as the 1910's)

[Lyinginbedmon]

Armies of undead (and even lone ones) aren't exactly common in Avbaroy, even in FFF-era. If that threat did come up the UNA would either carpet-bomb them, use tanks or use Sovice units.

I can name a certain Necromancess that may have a problem with that.

And whilst she's not exactly one for serious strategising, she does know how to best use undead against a given target.

[Threeshades]

But what if it were in a civillian area, or by something that would make a much bigger explosion if carpet bombed? Say, an oil refinery, or a proto-gas station (such things did exist as early as the 1910's)

i imagine the sovice to have about the same compassion for their citizens as the combine.

[Squark]

The UNA can't actually rely on Sovice units, now that I think of it. If they get used very often, or even in any sort of public situation, it could start people asking why the sovice aren't doing the policework.

Also, WWI era tanks did have a lot of design flaws, which a cunning necromancer could exploit.


For that matter, a WWI tank wouldn't stand up to a fireball. The thinks were so hot that entire crews were fainting to begin with, and a fireball would probably turn the thing into a kiln.

i imagine the sovice to have about the same compassion for their citizens as the combine.

Yes, but its hard to play the good guy when you just bombed a heavily populated area of your own nation. And the Sovice are trying to appear the good guy, after all.

[SinisterPenguin]

i imagine the sovice to have about the same compassion for their citizens as the combine.

Even if that's true, it would still tarnish their public image hugely if they killed a large amount of civilians in a bombing (even if it did successfully destroy the undead army), which would be a boon to the resistance.

[-skimmer-]

Yes, but its hard to play the good guy when you just bombed a heavily populated area of your own nation. And the Sovice are trying to appear the good guy, after all.

Even if that's true, it would still tarnish their public image hugely if they killed a large amount of civilians in a bombing (even if it did successfully destroy the undead army), which would be a boon to the resistance.

UNA can always say "Resistance did it", and remain good

[Mina Kobold]

Coments on Undead vs. Guns-

Zombie headshot vulnerability aside, anything short of An Obscene amount of More Dakka (We're talking Modern Miniguns here) is not very effective against undead. You shoot a human in the arm, he's lost much of the use of that arm. You shoot a zombie in the arm, the zombie just has a bit of lead in its arm. And as for skeletons...


Its a bunch of bone, for crying out loud! With not vital tissues to damage, the only was do destroy it with a gun is to shoot it into tiny little peaces with a BFG.

Also, in WW1, melee combat was still an important part of trench warfare, even if it usually involved hitting the other guy with your shovel*.




*As All Quiet on the Western Front points out, aside from setting against a charge, a shovel is a much better weapon than a bayonet. Not only can you cut with the sharp edge, but its heavy enough to crack open someone's skull or kill a feral rat.

Myth Busters tested a civil-war riffle, it penetrated a leg (ballistic gel AND bone) flew 100+ meters and stopped half a meter into a blob of ballistic gel, now WW1 weapons are far more powerful so blasting the head of a skeleton shouldn't be a problem (or in case you just need to flee, it's legs) nor a zombie's head for that matter.

@Squark: That's the dilemma of the cold war, if you fired your nuke it would start a chain-reaction that'll destroy civilisation, though I don't it will be that big chain-reactions in FI.

@-Skimmer-: None of the sides uses that much necromancy you know (the UNa would get unpopular by doing it and the resistance is a very mixed group)

PS: Actually making a longbow (best ranged weapon of the middle ages) takes about 20 years but since they weren't all made at once it just meant there weren't that many at a time (they had a lot of people make them), I read an article on it and no you can't make arrows in a forest, the wood needs to be straight unless you want to hit something miles away from where you are aiming and without a well made metal arrowhead you can't use it for much more than hunting anyway, It's a very good weapon and the reason England could defeat France back then but compared to guns it's just not worth the effort (especially not in real life where arrows could be stopped by a plate mail while an armor thick enough to deflect bullets was to heavy to wear) so why don't we say that there are ups and downs for both but guns are easier for large groups (whereas a single adventurer probably has the time to train with the bow and the money to buy one, a large group most likely doesn't) and especially people like ALF.

[SinisterPenguin]

UNA can always say "Resistance did it", and remain good

I doubt that would be a very good excuse, considering that the ALF doesn't actually have the power to carpet bomb an area.

At least I don't think it does, anyway.

[Squark]

Myth Busters tested a civil-war riffle, it penetrated a leg (ballistic gel AND bone) flew 100+ meters and stopped half a meter into a blob of ballistic gel, now WW1 weapons are far more powerful so blasting the head of a skeleton shouldn't be a problem (or in case you just need to flee, it's legs) nor a zombie's head for that matter.

Yes, but a head is not exactly essential to a skeletons existance, is it?


IT'S a BUNCH OF BONES! as I've said before. Why should shooting the head off do anything at all to it other than deprive it of the ability to bite your hand?

A similar line of thought is present with a zombie. There is no real reason a zombie needs its head, after all.

I doubt that would be a very good excuse, considering that the ALF doesn't actually have the power to carpet bomb an area.

At least I don't think it does, anyway.

But they can SAY that the resistance does have that ability. Although since it would likely be a resistance-based operation (remember, there are numerous resistance groups), it'd still be a lousy excuse

[-skimmer-]

I doubt that would be a very good excuse, considering that the ALF doesn't actually have the power to carpet bomb an area.

At least I don't think it does, anyway.

ALF still has Citadel of Bis Anu. That thing alone can carpet bomb an area......and given that UNA controls media it's unlikely someone besides ALF will know the truth

[Squark]

I think the ALF also has the Vendetta and a schizian airship or two, iirc.

[Mad Mask]

Yes, but a head is not exactly essential to a skeletons existance, is it?


IT'S a BUNCH OF BONES! as I've said before. Why should shooting the head off do anything at all to it other than deprive it of the ability to bite your hand?

Why is the sword going to be so useful, anyway ? The bones are attached by magic, and a bullet has a lot more penetrative capacity.

But they can SAY that the resistance does have that ability. Although since it would likely be a resistance-based operation (remember, there are numerous resistance groups), it'd still be a lousy excuse

Carpet bombing only works in certain cases, that's why they have other options.

[Threeshades]

I think the ALF also has the Vendetta and a schizian airship or two, iirc.

The Vendetta crashed into the ocean just before the final battle.

[Lyinginbedmon]

I think the ALF also has the Vendetta and a schizian airship or two, iirc.

What's left of the Vendetta anyways.

If they can get the Citadel near it though they could use the shield to allow some repairs.

[Threeshades]

What's left of the Vendetta anyways.

If they can get the Citadel near it though they could use the shield to allow some repairs.

the vendetta as a whole would be quite an overkill, since she's almost impenetrable.

And heavily armed without a blind spot. + the front directed wave-motion gun.

[-skimmer-]

Why is the sword going to be so useful, anyway ? The bones are attached by magic, and a bullet has a lot more penetrative capacity.

You'll get out of ammo before you can do some serious damage to it and with sword you can atleast parry. Really effective weapons against undead are still hammers though.....

[Squark]

Let's look through a list of fantasy monsters and see what WWI tech could do against them.

-Incorporeal Undead- Yeah, pure WWI tech is sunk if it ever comes up against even a lowly allip or shadow.

-Ankhegs- A CR 3 beasty. Their carapace is tougher than plate armor, which would at least slow bullets down, and its acid spit would be effective against tanks. It also burrows fast enough that with some magical direction, you could stage effective hit and run tactics. Ultimately, their burrowing would be tricky, since if you don't kill them, they'll just run away and hide.

-Basilisk- Tanks would be a virtual requirement here, as you'd be dealing with a lot of stone infantry if you didn't use them.

-Beholder- Disintegrate vs. tank=large pile of dust. These would only be feasible to fight with artillery, and even that'd be tricky with a group. Carpet bombing would be out, because it'd be overkill to bomb even a full cluster (6) of these things. You don't carpet bomb a small squad. You carpet bomb a city or an army.

-Chimera- It's flying, it has a breath weapon that's efficient enough to be used as an antipersonal weapon, and, like an Ankheg, its heavy armored enough that it'll take armor piercing rounds to deal with it.

-Balor- An unlimited supply of blasphemy spell-like abilities, a +19 natural armor bonus even tanks would struggle to pierce, and a flight speed that would let it outrun anything short of a plain, and it could probably outmanuver those.

-Dretch- For a comparison, a low-level demon. How would this fair against the UNA? fairly well, without magical assistance. 1/day uses of scare and stinking cloud could ruin proper planning.

-Herzou- Finally, a mid-level demon. This thing has plenty of unholy blights, so it could ruin the UNA's infantry, and gaseous form is good for getaways.

-Barbed Devil- With scorching rays at his command, he can cut through a tanks armor. With his teleportation abilities, he can easily get into a fortified position.

-Lemure- This is the lowest demon. Admitidly, one of these isn't a threat to the UNA. But a mob of them is. Since they're mindless, they'll keep going until they're dead, and their damage reduction will keep them alive long enough to get into melee range. However, I think, say, a machine gun, would be sufficient here.

-Pit Fiend- Err... WWI tech is sunk, here. Its small enough that if its flying, you'd struggle to hit it with bombs or artillery, and the natural armor and energy resistance means that nothing short of said bombs or artillery is going to kill it. Meanwhile, it turns tanks into deathtraps by superheating them with fireballs, sends infantry fleeing in terror with its fear aura, and can teleport into fortified areas.

-Dragons- Err... 1) It can fly, so it can easily limit the WWI tech to air-based attacks, since the scales are strong enough to withstand even armor piercing rounds and missile launchers on a young adult. Meanwhile, they're competent spellcasters, their breath weapons can mow down scores of tanks and troops.

-Elementals- Mechanicly, these aren't a huge danger until they get big. But if you insist on being realistic like MM is, you're sunk. How exactly do you kill a bunch of Air, especially when it can turn into a whirlwind and throw plains aside like a child throwing a small ball. As for earth elementals... ITS A BUNCH OF ROCK. You're going to need explosives. lots of them. Fire and Water Elementals? No bullet is going to hurt them, so you're stuck with using fire against water and water against fire.

I could go on, if you want.

Meanwhile, let's look at magic.


Protection from arrows works equally well against bullets, obviously. Fireballs will turn tanks into ovens, and a lightning bolt... I don't want to be inside a tank, that's for sure.


My point is that magical creatures and spells can easily hold their own against simple WWI tech, so the UNA will have to rely heavily on magic to counter the ALF's own spellcasters.


As for the Sovice... MM, the problem with the Sovice, the way they are, is if you use them once, people will wonder why you don't use them every time. And pretty soon, you have to either resort to some... potentially pr-deadly tactics, or the sovice end up swamped with demands for them to solve all the world's problems.

[Lyinginbedmon]

I'm surprised you didn't cover the Bulette

All good points, at least that should give reason for the UNA to seriously worry about ALF. With the right publicity, they might be able to swing heavy policing of spellcasters and such.

[Calamity]

What exactly happened to the Vendetta anyway? I mean, plenty of things happened to it... but which ones were canon?

[BRC]

What exactly happened to the Vendetta anyway? I mean, plenty of things happened to it... but which ones were canon?

TS made it crash, using Evil.

[Lyinginbedmon]

TS made it crash, using Evil.

Pure demonic evil is very heavy stuff.

[Calamity]

Sorry, I should have been more specific, what happened to it afterwards? It's still where it crashed?

[Lyinginbedmon]

Sorry, I should have been more specific, what happened to it afterwards? It's still where it crashed?

Yes, under a not-insignificant volume of water off the coast near where the final battle took place.

[-skimmer-]

Well, it would be only interesting if ALF somehow manage to atleast partially repair Vendetta and make it fly.....I mean, it can have several malfunctions, half of weaponry jammed and shields beyond repair, but imagine it flying above battlefield side by side with the citadel

[Mad Mask]

Let's look through a list of fantasy monsters and see what WWI tech could do against them.

-Incorporeal Undead- Yeah, pure WWI tech is sunk if it ever comes up against even a lowly allip or shadow.

A ghost-touch enchantment would work well on a machine gun, or the UNA could use its cadre of mages. And that's only assuming those exist in Avbaroy.

-Ankhegs- A CR 3 beasty. Their carapace is tougher than plate armor, which would at least slow bullets down, and its acid spit would be effective against tanks. It also burrows fast enough that with some magical direction, you could stage effective hit and run tactics. Ultimately, their burrowing would be tricky, since if you don't kill them, they'll just run away and hide.

4d4 acid ? A level 3 warrior (CR 2) could resist that fully naked. Not going to pass trough tank armour. And if it can be killed by swords it can be killed by guns.

-Basilisk- Tanks would be a virtual requirement here, as you'd be dealing with a lot of stone infantry if you didn't use them.

I concede your point.

-Beholder- Disintegrate vs. tank=large pile of dust. These would only be feasible to fight with artillery, and even that'd be tricky with a group. Carpet bombing would be out, because it'd be overkill to bomb even a full cluster (6) of these things. You don't carpet bomb a small squad. You carpet bomb a city or an army.

That's one thing that doesn't make sense. A squishy human (naked except for his sword) with no magical abilities except for being high-level can survive a full-on disintegrate by the beholder and could even kill him but a frakkin' 30 ton steel monster with machine guns and cannons doesn't stand a chance.

-Chimera- It's flying, it has a breath weapon that's efficient enough to be used as an antipersonal weapon, and, like an Ankheg, its heavy armored enough that it'll take armor piercing rounds to deal with it.

If it can be killed by the same human as above it can be killed by a machine gun.

-Balor- An unlimited supply of blasphemy spell-like abilities, a +19 natural armor bonus even tanks would struggle to pierce, and a flight speed that would let it outrun anything short of a plain, and it could probably outmanuver those.

A Level 20 warrior with 10 strength and a mundane sword can pierce his armour. Machine guns should do the same.

-Dretch- For a comparison, a low-level demon. How would this fair against the UNA? fairly well, without magical assistance. 1/day uses of scare and stinking cloud could ruin proper planning.

That's assuming it doesn't get shot before it gets too close and that the soldiers fail their saving throw.

-Herzou- Finally, a mid-level demon. This thing has plenty of unholy blights, so it could ruin the UNA's infantry, and gaseous form is good for getaways.

I concede this, we'll need some Elite Peacekeepers.

-Barbed Devil- With scorching rays at his command, he can cut through a tanks armor. With his teleportation abilities, he can easily get into a fortified position.

Scorching rays ? A level 4 warrior stands a good chance of surviving them, and so should the tank. Their armour is pretty tough, you know.

-Lemure- This is the lowest demon. Admitidly, one of these isn't a threat to the UNA. But a mob of them is. Since they're mindless, they'll keep going until they're dead, and their damage reduction will keep them alive long enough to get into melee range. However, I think, say, a machine gun, would be sufficient here.

According to the pitifully unrealistic stats of d20 modern two shotgun blasts should be enough to take him down at average damage.

-Pit Fiend- Err... WWI tech is sunk, here. Its small enough that if its flying, you'd struggle to hit it with bombs or artillery, and the natural armor and energy resistance means that nothing short of said bombs or artillery is going to kill it. Meanwhile, it turns tanks into deathtraps by superheating them with fireballs, sends infantry fleeing in terror with its fear aura, and can teleport into fortified areas.

Pit fiends are pretty powerful, but a plane or two should be enough to take it down. They're fast enough to dodge its fireballs and their gatling guns should punch through him if a 20th level human warrior with a mundane sword can.

-Dragons- Err... 1) It can fly, so it can easily limit the WWI tech to air-based attacks, since the scales are strong enough to withstand even armor piercing rounds and missile launchers on a young adult. Meanwhile, they're competent spellcasters, their breath weapons can mow down scores of tanks and troops.

What about a plane ? A fighter dogfighting with a dragon should be plenty of awesome !

But dragons are allied with the UNA, so no big trouble. Unless the ALF finds the Talisman of the Dragon King and enslaves all of dragonkind to fight their previous allies. Then they're in trouble.

-Elementals- Mechanicly, these aren't a huge danger until they get big. But if you insist on being realistic like MM is, you're sunk. How exactly do you kill a bunch of Air, especially when it can turn into a whirlwind and throw plains aside like a child throwing a small ball. As for earth elementals... ITS A BUNCH OF ROCK. You're going to need explosives. lots of them. Fire and Water Elementals? No bullet is going to hurt them, so you're stuck with using fire against water and water against fire.

Water guns and flamethrowers.

And if we're being realistic elementals shouldn't exist at all, so we could say that bullets hurt air elementals the same way arrows and swords do.

Meanwhile, let's look at magic.

Protection from arrows works equally well against bullets, obviously. Fireballs will turn tanks into ovens, and a lightning bolt... I don't want to be inside a tank, that's for sure.

Bullets are far more powerful than arrows. Protection from arrows should work but won't stay as long as it does against arrows. But I concede that sufficiently powerful wizards are going to be a real pain for the UNA.

My point is that magical creatures and spells can easily hold their own against simple WWI tech, so the UNA will have to rely heavily on magic to counter the ALF's own spellcasters.

Fight fire with fire, of course. I accept that.

As for the Sovice... MM, the problem with the Sovice, the way they are, is if you use them once, people will wonder why you don't use them every time. And pretty soon, you have to either resort to some... potentially pr-deadly tactics, or the sovice end up swamped with demands for them to solve all the world's problems.

They pretty much did. They've restored Lockutas' climate, exterminated the beasts of Regen and Harshrealm, rebuilt plenty of cities and achieved world peace. However, Lying knows a lot about them and how to keep them at bay. That's why they aren't used against the Resistance. At least officially.

[Lyinginbedmon]

That's some pretty roughshot arguing there, you're upping the level of ability of the person using the sword in order to compensate for the sword itself most times, that's a lot different than taking a standardised case and applying it to different matters.

A gun is standard, with swords it's very much the person using it. Now granted, someone just learning to use a gun is going to inflict less damage than, say, a veteran sniper, but there again is the skill difference present with someone wielding a sword.

And why exactly are dragons allied with the UNA? Without some serious mind control, every dragon should have it's own opinions, and most of them are sizeably more experienced with global affairs and intellectual than most commoners.

And as for exterminating the creatures of Regen, BIG issues there. Politically, morally, ethically, most of those creatures are sentient/sapient beings, a few are even endangered species, they even have a leader. The only possible concern there would be them possibly aligning with ALF, in which case exterminate every other living being with their own sense of morality and free will as well.

[-skimmer-]

And why exactly are dragons allied with the UNA? Without some serious mind control, every dragon should have it's own opinions, and most of them are sizeably more experienced with global affairs and intellectual than most commoners.

I think it has something to do with Lavidors character: Ilya, Empress of the United Draconic Empire

Looks like she has dragons under command...

@MM: By Dnd rules naked 20lvl fighter can also easily survive barrage from a gatling gun

[Squark]

MM-

1. You can't go and mix D&D rules and physics/common sense. You have to pick one. Also, the above argument was meant to point out the necessity of the UNA to rely on high-level mages for enchanting weapons and countering beasties of sorts. The problem is, even if we go with the UNA having as many high-level characters as Faerun (before 4e butchered it. There's one thing Lying and I can agree on. Whoever writes 4e flavor should be fired. preferably from a canon), that's still not enough to have one within one minutes response time to the resistance. And someone like, say, Jake Grant (Near-Epic Duskblade) or Oliver (Near-epic Swordsage), could do A LOT of damage in a minute, and then teleport or be teleported out.

2. You also need to factor in that, despite all your glowing praise of the UNA's training, if you go with d20 rulesset, your average peace keeper and the average UNA soldier is a level 1, maybe level 2 warrior. That's the way the world works.

Ultimately, I'm trying to get it across that you're giving the UNA too much of a god mode sue. Yes, I understand that the ALF is severely outgunned, but its starting to encroach on my willing suspense of disbelief, and making me wonder, "Why on earth are the Sovice sitting on their omnipotent backsides? They should have wiped the resistance out within the first year!" I don't mean to be offensive, but this is starting to bug me, and I get the feeling I'm not the only one getting a bit exasperated. Again, I don't mean to be insulting. I'm just trying to be frank, here.*

@Lying- Blowing two whole countries (Helina and Alineh) off the map is also highly unethical. The UNA did that too, and noone cars much. Of course, they were warmongering and universally disliked, but that still doesn't excuse what amounts to genocide.

In other news, I'll be going on a trip tomorrow, and won't be back home for a couple of days. I think I'll be able to get internet access from time, but I won't be able to keep up the level of activity I usually do. Don't start FI without me.


*To be perfectly honest, this reminds me a little of me during the citadel incident.

[Lyinginbedmon]

@Lying- Blowing two whole countries (Helina and Alineh) off the map is also highly unethical. The UNA did that too, and noone cars much. Of course, they were warmongering and universally disliked, but that still doesn't excuse what amounts to genocide.

True, but Polymus wouldn't want a war he couldn't win. He's a hydra afterall, he's got more brains than most boardrooms.

He'd negotiate, try and settle an amicable deal with the overpowerful agressors, best case scenario he'd agree to not cause any trouble and ensure Regen keeps quiet, worst case scenario he'd sign up with them (He'd have a lot of trouble putting Regen right with that, few would agree with him).