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    Default Yet another Mystic Theurge fix [PrC]

    Countermage Theurge

    Kelsa Vennes, an assassin of mages and countermage theurge

    The countermagi are nothing less than a unique bunch. If they started as priests or if they started as learned magicians, they all end up following the same path regardless, one normal mystic theurges cannot grasp and many single-classed magicians wish they could. The countermagi are spellcasters that learned secrets of both the arcane and the divine to gain the greatest knowledge of unweaving spells and destroying them, but at the highest levels they are capable of tearing the spell apart and rebuilding it and throwing it back at their enemies.

    HD: d6

    Requirements
    Skills:
    Knowledge (arcana) 4 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 4 ranks, Spellcraft 8 ranks
    Feats: Improved Counterspell, any two metamagic feats
    Arcane Spellcasting: Ability to cast 2nd level spells.
    Divine Spellcasting: Ability to cast 2nd level spells.
    Special: Must have defeated a single arcane or divine caster on your own with at least as many caster levels as you.

    Class Skills: Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Decipher Script, Heal, Knowledge (all skills), Sense Motive and Spellcraft
    Skill-points per level: 2+Int modifier

    {table="head"]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special|Arcane Spellcasting|Divine Spellcasting
    1st|+0|+0|+0|+2|Hand of disjoinment|+1 of existing arcane spellcasting class|+1 of existing divine spellcasting class
    2nd|+1|+0|+0|+3|Cross casting (1st and below)|+1 of existing arcane spellcasting class|+1 of existing divine spellcasting class
    3rd|+1|+1|+1|+3|--|+1 of existing arcane spellcasting class|+1 of existing divine spellcasting class
    4th|+2|+1|+1|+4|Cross casting (2nd level or lower)|+1 of existing arcane spellcasting class|+1 of existing divine spellcasting class
    5th|+2|+1|+1|+4|Augmented casting|+1 of existing arcane spellcasting class|+1 of existing divine spellcasting class
    6th|+3|+2|+2|+5|Cross casting (3rd level or lower)|+1 of existing arcane spellcasting class|+1 of existing divine spellcasting class
    7th|+3|+2|+2|+5|--|+1 of existing arcane spellcasting class|+1 of existing divine spellcasting class
    8th|+4|+2|+2|+6|Cross casting (4th level or lower)|+1 of existing arcane spellcasting class|+1 of existing divine spellcasting class
    9th|+4|+3|+3|+6|--|+1 of existing arcane spellcasting class|+1 of existing divine spellcasting class
    10th|+5|+3|+3|+7|Cross casting (5th level or lower)|+1 of existing arcane spellcasting class|+1 of existing divine spellcasting class
    11th|+5|+3|+3|+7|Mana shield|+1 of existing arcane spellcasting class|+1 of existing divine spellcasting class
    12th|+6|+4|+4|+8|Cross casting (6th level or lower)|+1 of existing arcane spellcasting class|+1 of existing divine spellcasting class
    13th|+6|+4|+4|+8|--|+1 of existing arcane spellcasting class|+1 of existing divine spellcasting class
    14th|+7|+4|+4|+9|Deflection casting, cross casting (7th level or lower)|+1 of existing arcane spellcasting class|+1 of existing divine spellcasting class
    [/table]

    Weapon and Armor proficiency: Countermage theurgi gain no additional weapons or armor proficiencies.

    Spellcasting: When a new countermage theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that he adds the level of countermage theurge to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class or more than one divine spellcasting class before he became a countermage theurge, he must decide to which class he adds each level of countermage theurge for the purpose of determining spells per day.

    Hand of Disjoinment (Ex): As a countermage theurge advances, he becomes more learned in the ways of magics with little other purpose than countering other magics. Whenever the countermage gains the right level on both their arcane and divine casting classes, they automatically learn the spells below, or have them added to their spellbook, or capable of being prepared through prayer. The spells learned and their level are as follows;
    3rd: dispel magic, remove curse, nondetection
    4th: spell immunity
    5th: break enchantment, spell resistance
    6th: greater dispel magic, repulsion
    7th: banishment, spell turning
    8th: greater spell immunity, mind blank
    9th: mordenkainen's disjunction

    Additionally, whenever you learn these spells, you can sacrifice a prepared spell of the same level to cast them spontaneously, just as a cleric casts cure or inflict spells.

    Cross Casting (Su): At 2nd level, you can select one 0- or 1st level spell from either your arcane or divine spellcasting classes and add it to your spells known or spellbook(if divine) or the spells available to you through your deity(if arcane). You can add another spell to the other list of available spells(picking from either list every time) every two levels thereafter. At 4th level, this can be 0-, 1st or 2nd level spells. At 6th level, this can be any spell of 3rd level or lower. At 8th level, this spell can be of 4th level or lower, at 10th level, this spell can be of 5th level or lower, at 12th level this spell can be of 6th level or lower and at 14th level it can be of 7th level or lower.

    Augmented Casting (Su): Starting at 5th level, you can choose to sacrifice a spell or spell slot from one of your spellcasting classes to apply the effect of a metamagic feat that you know to a spell cast using another spellcasting class. (For instance, you could sacrifice a prepared cleric spell to apply a metamagic effect to a sorcerer spell).) This sacrificed spell or slot is lost (just as if you had cast the spell) in addition to the spell you are actually casting.
    The level of the spell to be augmented can't exceed 1/2 your class level. For example, when you first gain this ability, you can only apply a metamagic effect to 1st and second level spells. A 14th level countermage theurge can affect spells of 7th level or lower.
    The level of the spell slot sacrificed must equal or exceed the spell level adjustment of the metamagic feat. To empower a spell, for example, you would have to spend a 2nd-level or higher spell. You can't use this ability to augment a spell already affected by a metamagic feat.
    You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3+1/2 your class level.

    Mana Shield (Su): At 11th level, you leave your ability to counter the spells of your enemies to instinct and reflex rather than preparation and delay. Whenever an enemy casts a spells that you have successfully used Spellcraft to determine the spell being cast, you can counterspell them as an immediate action without needing to ready an action. However, if you do this you are only allowed a partial action in your next turn. Additionally, you gain a +2 to your caster level whenever you use spells learned through the hand of disjoinment class feature.

    Deflection Casting (Su): At 14th level, you learn the ultimate tool of the countermage. Whenever you successfully counterspell an opponents spell through your mana shield class feature, you can return the spell to them full force. The spell is considered to be cast on them, using the better of save DC's(all modifiers considered) and caster level of either you or the original spellcaster, even if it is a spell you do not know or are restricted from casting for any reason, such as a restricted school or alignment restrictions.
    Last edited by Krimm_Blackleaf; 2009-08-14 at 08:35 PM.
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    Default Re: Yet another Mystic Theurge fix [PrC]

    So, you feel like the original mystic theurge is underpowered, and this class exists as a replacement, right? Because this class is necessarily better than the theurge. I really like it, but I thought that the general consensus was that mystic theurge was a relatively balanced class.

    Anyway, I wouldn't use it in my games, but if you feel like the theurge needs a boost, this is a well thought out and neat way to do so. Well done.

    edit: 14 levels long? That's quite bizarre. What was the reasoning behind this?
    Last edited by TheGrimace; 2009-08-04 at 01:39 AM.
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    Default Re: Yet another Mystic Theurge fix [PrC]

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGrimace View Post
    So, you feel like the original mystic theurge is underpowered, and this class exists as a replacement, right? Because this class is necessarily better than the theurge. I really like it, but I thought that the general consensus was that mystic theurge was a relatively balanced class.
    Really?
    I think it suffers from the aptly named 'Mystic Theurge Syndrome' where if you take it and even with full levels in the class, you'll be sorely outshined by anyone who took just one casting route in all regards except the sheer number of spells usable.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGrimace View Post
    edit: 14 levels long? That's quite bizarre. What was the reasoning behind this?
    The main crux of MTS, it didn't let you get near enough to high level spells. This way, at 20th level you'll have Divine 3/Arcane 3/countermage theurge 14 and be able to use 9th level spells from both classes, though still not as quickly as your one-route buddies.
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    Default Re: Yet another Mystic Theurge fix [PrC]

    I like it. Its like a Ultimate magus + Archmage only better Only problem i might see is that it grants so many spells to spontaneous spellcasters due to Hand of Disjoinment and Cross Casting. But you could keep it either way

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    Default Re: Yet another Mystic Theurge fix [PrC]

    You've done well, but, I say this with a straight face, Mystic Theurges don't need to be fixed. They do very well (at least, they start to be good at later mid level) with their role as a secondary spellcaster. They're better than bards, but not singlehandedly better than a full wizard or cleric.


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    Default Re: Yet another Mystic Theurge fix [PrC]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jergmo View Post
    You've done well, but, I say this with a straight face, Mystic Theurges don't need to be fixed. They do very well (at least, they start to be good at later mid level) with their role as a secondary spellcaster. They're better than bards, but not singlehandedly better than a full wizard or cleric.
    Which means there is no reason for a wizard or cleric to ever take the prestige class. Being a competent secondary spellcaster is little consolation when the main draw of your class is "being a competent primary spellcaster." Any fix, especially ones that just give additional class features, are well within the realm of reason.
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    Default Re: Yet another Mystic Theurge fix [PrC]

    Quote Originally Posted by The Demented One View Post
    Which means there is no reason for a wizard or cleric to ever take the prestige class. Being a competent secondary spellcaster is little consolation when the main draw of your class is "being a competent primary spellcaster." Any fix, especially ones that just give additional class features, are well within the realm of reason.
    Not for power, but for flavor or style or something else, there are reasons. Just sayin'.

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    Default Re: Yet another Mystic Theurge fix [PrC]

    Quote Originally Posted by arguskos View Post
    Not for power, but for flavor or style or something else, there are reasons. Just sayin'.
    But in an ideal world, a player should be rewarded, not punished for choosing flavourful options.

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    Default Re: Yet another Mystic Theurge fix [PrC]

    Quote Originally Posted by Sereg View Post
    But in an ideal world, a player should be rewarded, not punished for choosing flavourful options.
    And that's why this class was made. It's about on the same tier of power as it's counterparts and can still be made as flavorful as a mystic theurge.
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    Default Re: Yet another Mystic Theurge fix [PrC]

    Quote Originally Posted by peacenlove View Post
    I like it. Its like a Ultimate magus + Archmage only better Only problem i might see is that it grants so many spells to spontaneous spellcasters due to Hand of Disjoinment and Cross Casting. But you could keep it either way
    there is precedent for adding oddles of spells to a spontaneous caster's list; look at the sandshaper from sandstorm, or (if i remember correctly) the rainbow servant.

    i am not a fan of the 14-level commitment, but that isn't really a big deal. over all, cool class.

    mana shield needs to be clarified. +2 caster level when using these spells *with* the mana shield ability, or just whenever you use those spells?

    if it is through the mana shield ability, it should be explicitly stated. if it is general use, it would probably be better as a higher level function of the hand of disjoinment ability. "at xth level, the theurge gains a +2 caster level whenever he uses one of these spells..." or something similar.
    Last edited by Stycotl; 2009-08-05 at 03:33 PM.
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    Default Re: Yet another Mystic Theurge fix [PrC]

    Deflection Casting might want to be reworded to be something you *can* activate, not something that always works. If it's something that always works, counterspelling becomes a lot less valid.

    For example, what if you Counterspell Blasphemy? At level 14, by RAW on your ability, you automatically deflect it so it is cast centered on the caster, just like it would be anyway, and it would still destroy you.

    This is probably a good class, though at will counterspelling seems a bit nuts; you can stop anything the other mage casts, have enough spell slots to handle that many greater dispels, and you can still hit about as hard as they can. So it's up there on the cheese level of other good wizard/cleric PrCs, I think.
    Last edited by Milskidasith; 2009-08-05 at 03:46 PM.

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