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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: Why do people think it's okay to keep trying to rob me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    Those box of truth guys are not rigorous enough for my standards.

    They didn't even test to see if the slug breaking was a fluke or not. Or even do multiple firings. I mean, what the hell?
    Or do human testing... That works also, you know. Especially if it's as ineffective as they say it is.
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  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: Why do people think it's okay to keep trying to rob me?

    They do use news resporters to test tazers...
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  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: Why do people think it's okay to keep trying to rob me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    Those box of truth guys are not rigorous enough for my standards.

    They didn't even test to see if the slug breaking was a fluke or not. Or even do multiple firings. I mean, what the hell?
    What slug breaking? Considering that they were testing rock salt, there was no slug involved.

    No, the methods are not very rigorous, but if rock salt can't penetrate cardboard, it's not going to do much to a man.
    "Courage is the complement of fear. A fearless man cannot be courageous. He is also a fool." -- Robert Heinlein


  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: Why do people think it's okay to keep trying to rob me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin View Post
    No, the methods are not very rigorous, but if rock salt can't penetrate cardboard, it's not going to do much to a man.
    Are you going to stand by that statement? *whips out shotgun, loads rock salt*
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  5. - Top - End - #65
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Why do people think it's okay to keep trying to rob me?

    Faulty: Um, what is this about reporters and police brutality?

    Quote Originally Posted by Faulty View Post
    Just because they tried to break into a guys house doesn't immediately mean they're rapists or murderers or deserve to die. That's a tad extreme.
    On the other hand, home invasion is pretty damn traumatic and can easily lead to bad times, especially since, if one is invading a house while the occupants are there or even have a chance of being there, one has to be prepared for such an eventuality.

    It's perfectly reasonable to assume that anyone who will break into one's home while one is there has the means and the will to do harm. Unless it's a bad comedy movie in which case it's just them being stupid and doing property damage. But the capacity for violence is still there.

    And that is a question. What sort of shock/pain/disorientation is experienced from a less than lethal hit from rock salt?

    And I would've sworn by now that there were rock salt rounds available to some extent for them to obtain to compare their jury-rigged shells with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin View Post
    What slug breaking? Considering that they were testing rock salt, there was no slug involved.

    No, the methods are not very rigorous, but if rock salt can't penetrate cardboard, it's not going to do much to a man.
    There was an earlier posted link to a comparison between 20 gauge and 12 gauge shotguns for blowing holes in people.

    Also, just because it doesn't cause lacerations doesn't mean it won't knock someone on their ass. Then again, maybe it does. I'm no firearms expert after all. Though, it did concede that 12 feet would probably cause a burn which is within the range they estimated for within a home and near it.

    Because the only rubric of a shotgun's capability is actually tearing people apart so they die messily. Because blunt force trauma is nothing.

    I mean, if you're getting into a gunfight, then yeah, rock salt rounds are a serious limitation, but for purposes of trigger happy intimidation ratchetting things down to wounding and stunning upon a misfire (except for at very close ranges, of course) from quite likely killing could be preferable in some cases.
    Last edited by Coidzor; 2009-08-09 at 05:08 PM.
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  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: Why do people think it's okay to keep trying to rob me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    ^: Um, what?
    Well, if he's so confident they won't work, well, then he can be brave enough to let people test it on himself, you know.
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  7. - Top - End - #67
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Why do people think it's okay to keep trying to rob me?

    Hannes: was actually replying to faulty's reporters quip, sorry.

    Quote Originally Posted by RS14 View Post
    The 20 gauge is probably adequate if loaded with buckshot. The Box O' Truth did some tests with one that you might want to look at.
    Here's that link I was talking about comparing 20 gauge with 12.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
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  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Default Re: Why do people think it's okay to keep trying to rob me?

    2 things. Doom2099, please, for the love of everything, go read. This isn't an attack, but I can't find a single thing in your post that I agree with, or is truthful.

    2nd thing, Renegade Paladin

    Under Castle Law, and similar property protection laws, as written, you, as a home owner being invaded, have just about every right in this country to fire upon ANYONE who doesn't properly identify themselves as on official person* REGARDLESS of what direction they are facing. Think about it. If you get caught by surprise by an armed homeowner and need a second to bring your weapon up to bear, you are gonna scramble like mad to get out of the sight of that weapon. Front, back, side, whatever, you will probably twist, turn, or leap in any direction to get to cover so you can return fire. If I was that homeowner and an unidentified invader so much as flinched, I'd fire, probably at least twice if not more, until the invader stopped moving. He lost his right to not get shot at when he entered my home and endangered my family. I'm not gonna risk MY life and the lives of MY family on the chance that I can identify whether the movement is fight or flight before he can bring a weapon to bear on me. I'm a good shot, and I have relatively quick reflexes, but those aren't dice I'd be willing to roll on ANY day.

    If the roles were reversed and I were invading someones home and they leveled a shotgun on me, I'd do my darnedest not to make any sudden movements. I'd accept that I'm caught and that any sudden movements will likely make him show me what my insides look like on the outside. Unfortunately, if someone's breakin into my home, I couldn't be garunteed that they would have the same common sense that I do. Therefore, I'm gonna assume that any sudden movements are hostile, regardless of intent. You'd have a really hard time finding a judge that would even HEAR a case of excessive force against a home invader unless the home owner did something completely out of line like locking the invader in his basement for a weeks while beating him. Your chances of going to prison for emptying your magazine against a home invader are near zero.

    *Police and other officials are required to identify themselves as such clearly and often when lawfully entering private property for their OWN protection. No identification, no protection.

    ** Keld is not a lawyer. If you have any questions about anything I've said, don't take my word for it, GO LOOK IT UP! or contact a BAR certified lawyer.
    Last edited by Keld Denar; 2009-08-09 at 05:19 PM. Reason: Spelling
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  9. - Top - End - #69
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    Default Re: Why do people think it's okay to keep trying to rob me?

    Haven't you ever seen reports on tazers where the reporter offers to get tazed?
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  10. - Top - End - #70
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    Default Re: Why do people think it's okay to keep trying to rob me?

    There is a difference between firing upon an invader who happens to have their back to you, but is otherwise hostile, and an invader who has expressed a desire to retreat or surrender.

    Castle Laws, as I understand them, generally require that the occupant has a reasonable belief that the intruder intends to inflict harm or commit some other felony. While that is reasonable for an arbitrary intruder, it is probably not true for someone who turns and runs, unless they are firing wildly behind them.

  11. - Top - End - #71
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    Default Re: Why do people think it's okay to keep trying to rob me?

    That makes sense.
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  12. - Top - End - #72
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    Default Re: Why do people think it's okay to keep trying to rob me?

    Castle Laws, as such, vary dramatically from country to country and are even different from state to state inside the U.S.. Generally speaking, Keld is correct within the bounds of most of the states (and in Texas a neighbor famously shot to death an unarmed burglar running away from someone else's house and IIRC wasn't even charged), but in the U.K. for example, it's an entirely different story.
    Last edited by Pyrian; 2009-08-09 at 05:23 PM.
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  13. - Top - End - #73
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    Default Re: Why do people think it's okay to keep trying to rob me?

    Well, aren't you not allowed to own fire arms in the UK to begin with? I thought they were famous for being one of the first developed nations to do that.
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  14. - Top - End - #74
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    Default Re: Why do people think it's okay to keep trying to rob me?

    At the point IF it even comes to court, its pretty much a case of your word against theirs, plus or minus some forensic evidence such as bullet patterns, blood patterns, timing of events, etc. Who's gonna have a more likely chance to be believed, the invader? Or the defender?

    I mean, unless their is evidence that you ran up on them after dropping them and finished the intruder executioner style to the back of the head, I'd have a hard time believing that a judge in the US would have a problem with an empty magazine.

    I've even heard stories* of people in high tension situations such as home invasions, where the defender has been known to empty entire 20 shot magazines before they even realize they've pulled the trigger. When adrenaline takes over, mentally you're just along for the ride.

    *Haven't personally verified accuracy, coworked mentioned having read a psych study to this degree.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fax Celestis View Post
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    _________________________________
    A beholder’s favorite foods include small live mammals, exotic mushrooms and other fungi, gnomes, beef, pork, colorful leafy vegetables, leaves, flower petals, insects, and birds.

  15. - Top - End - #75
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    Default Re: Why do people think it's okay to keep trying to rob me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrian View Post
    Castle Laws, as such, vary dramatically from country to country and are even different from state to state inside the U.S.. Generally speaking, Keld is correct within the bounds of most of the states (and in Texas a neighbor famously shot to death an unarmed burglar running away from someone else's house and IIRC wasn't even charged), but in the U.K. for example, it's an entirely different story.
    Do you mean Joe Horn? Because he shot unarmed burglars leaving the house with stolen property; Texas law expressly permits the use of force to protect property. Had they been retreating following a confrontation, and not taking property with them, his actions probably would have been criminal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    Well, aren't you not allowed to own fire arms in the UK to begin with? I thought they were famous for being one of the first developed nations to do that.
    I'm pretty sure you can own shotguns in the UK.

  16. - Top - End - #76
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    Default Re: Why do people think it's okay to keep trying to rob me?

    non-hardened people do seem to at least coloquially possess this tendency to unload very easily.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
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  17. - Top - End - #77
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    Default Re: Why do people think it's okay to keep trying to rob me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    Well, aren't you not allowed to own fire arms in the UK to begin with?
    Yeah. Even the bobbies go around without firearms (unless specifically called for). But it's not just guns; in the U.K. simply hitting someone who's broken into your house could get you charged with assault if you can't prove that it was a proportionate response to a violent threat.

    EDIT: Basically, I'm just trying to make the point that virtually any statement to the effect of "the law is X" is almost certainly relative to your location on these particular issues.
    Last edited by Pyrian; 2009-08-09 at 05:38 PM.
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  18. - Top - End - #78
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    Default Re: Why do people think it's okay to keep trying to rob me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hannes View Post
    Well, if he's so confident they won't work, well, then he can be brave enough to let people test it on himself, you know.
    I'm a firm believer in animal testing prior to human trials.

    More seriously, I'm quite sure it would hurt, and God help him if it hits his eyes, but stinging skin and stopped are two entirely different things. If someone is going to attack me, you'd best be damned sure I want something that's going to stop him from doing so, not something that's just going to piss him off. Salt is crystalline and therefore by definition less dense than a normal solid of the same volume, and the material is light to begin with. Knowledge of basic conservation of momentum should tell you what that will do with a few moments' thought.
    "Courage is the complement of fear. A fearless man cannot be courageous. He is also a fool." -- Robert Heinlein


  19. - Top - End - #79
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    Default Re: Why do people think it's okay to keep trying to rob me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrian View Post
    simply hitting someone who's broken into your house could get you charged with assault if you can't prove that it was a proportionate response to a violent threat.
    But how accurately can ANYONE judge the "threat of violence" at the moment that someone is breaking into your home? Someone bigger than me breaks into my home and I grab a kitchen knife. I'm not allowed to use that kitchen knife to protect myself against a bigger man because hes not equally armed? No thanks. If he wants trouble, I'm gonna stab first and ask questions later. How do I know he doesn't have a boot knife? Or maybe brass knuckles under a long coat sleeve? Or carries a blackbelt in 6 different martial arts? I just can't see that being prosecutable. Maybe thats just the American in me, but it just seems too ludacris to be believeable...

    I'm reminded of the case in Shreveport, LA about 8ish years ago where 2 police officers gunned down a man outside of a 7-11. Video from the cruiser's camera showed the man pull something silver and reflective from his pocket WHILE THE OFFICERS HAD WEAPONS TRAINED ON HIM. The officers preceived a weapon and shot the man 5-6 times between the 2 of them. He was likely dead before he hit the ground. The item he pulled out was a cell phone, and the man was otherwise unarmed. The officers were put on trial and it was a glorious media sensation, but IIRC, they were both aquitted. If I ever met those officers, I'd buy them both a beer (off duty) because I'd have reacted the same way. I'm not gonna wait until his "intent" is pointed at me to open fire. Any action I can't immediately identify as non-hostile is automatically considered hostile.

    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin View Post
    Salt is crystalline and therefore by definition less dense than a normal solid of the same volume
    Fun fact: Steel is ALSO crystaline. Those with more disorderly grain structures tend to be more ridged, yet brittle (Pearlite), while those with more orderly crystaline structures tend to have a higher Young's Modulus and resistance to deformation (Austenite).
    And now you know, and KNOWING IS HALF THE BATTLE! GI JOE!
    Last edited by Keld Denar; 2009-08-09 at 06:42 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fax Celestis View Post
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    _________________________________
    A beholder’s favorite foods include small live mammals, exotic mushrooms and other fungi, gnomes, beef, pork, colorful leafy vegetables, leaves, flower petals, insects, and birds.

  20. - Top - End - #80
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    Default Re: Why do people think it's okay to keep trying to rob me?

    Yes, I know, but I'm trying not to complicate things. Salt forms a much larger crystalline structure than steel does, to the point where the crystals are visible to the naked eye. It's hard to argue that salt is not much less dense than steel because, well, it is.
    "Courage is the complement of fear. A fearless man cannot be courageous. He is also a fool." -- Robert Heinlein


  21. - Top - End - #81
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    Default Re: Why do people think it's okay to keep trying to rob me?

    And this is why knowing the laws in your state/country inside and out is a very good idea.

    Not just when it comes to firearms. I believe some states even take issue with pepper spray. I know some countries do.

    And this is why I like living in Alaska.

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    Default Re: Why do people think it's okay to keep trying to rob me?

    They think it's okay because it's easy money.

  23. - Top - End - #83
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    Default Re: Why do people think it's okay to keep trying to rob me?

    Look, discussion of what laws are is one thing, passionate argument of what they should be is politics and not allowed on this forum.
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  24. - Top - End - #84
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    Default Re: Why do people think it's okay to keep trying to rob me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
    it just seems too ludacris to be believeable...

    BELIEVE IT!
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    Default Re: Why do people think it's okay to keep trying to rob me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
    Thats retarded. No offence to anyone, but how accurately can you judge the "threat of violence" at the moment that someone is breaking into your home? Someone bigger than me breaks into my home and I grab a kitchen knife. I'm not allowed to use that kitchen knife to protect myself against a bigger man because hes not equally armed? No thanks. If he wants trouble, I'm gonna stab first and ask questions later. How do I know he doesn't have a boot knife? Or maybe brass knuckles under a long coat sleeve? Or carries a blackbelt in 6 different martial arts? I just can't see that being prosecutable. Maybe thats just the American in me, but it just seems too ludacris to be believeable...
    The law takes these things into account when deciding whether your response was reasonable - it's based on what you believed could happen (disregarding any mental issues of the defendant which might make them perceive a threat to be greater than it is). We don't expect people to make intricate probability calcuations when faced with a burglar.

    There's a fair amount of leniency involved, from what I remember of my criminal law (which I'll be the first to admit is a bit vague, it's been three years since I took it). It's mostly to avoid the kind of shooting unarmed people situations described here.

  26. - Top - End - #86
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    Default Re: Why do people think it's okay to keep trying to rob me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrian View Post
    Look, discussion of what laws are is one thing, passionate argument of what they should be is politics and not allowed on this forum.
    By the broad definition you are using, threatening enforcement of the rules is politics as well, because it is an attempt to influence another's behavior. Just sayin'.
    "Courage is the complement of fear. A fearless man cannot be courageous. He is also a fool." -- Robert Heinlein


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    Default Re: Why do people think it's okay to keep trying to rob me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin View Post
    By the broad definition you are using, threatening enforcement of the rules is politics as well, because it is an attempt to influence another's behavior. Just sayin'.
    Wait, what?

  28. - Top - End - #88
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    Default Re: Why do people think it's okay to keep trying to rob me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin View Post
    By the broad definition you are using, threatening enforcement of the rules is politics as well, because it is an attempt to influence another's behavior. Just sayin'.
    let's not get into this discussion again.

    like other have said. make sure you know your state's laws. you don't want to go to court if you don't have to over a misconception and because you didn't know your state's laws.

  29. - Top - End - #89
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    Default Re: Why do people think it's okay to keep trying to rob me?

    Quote Originally Posted by RS14 View Post
    Wait, what?
    Consulting Mr. Webster's reliable book, one finds the following:
    Quote Originally Posted by Merriam-Webster Dictionary
    Main Entry: pol·i·tics
    [Snip pronunciation guide and other definitions which pertain to governance.]
    5 a : the total complex of relations between people living in society b : relations or conduct in a particular area of experience
    If he's defining discussion of opinion as politics, this must be the definition he's using because the others don't apply, which includes, ironically, his own opinion about politics.
    "Courage is the complement of fear. A fearless man cannot be courageous. He is also a fool." -- Robert Heinlein


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    Default Re: Why do people think it's okay to keep trying to rob me?

    What hes saying is that vigilante moderation is discouraged. Proper form according to this forum's rules is:

    Quote Originally Posted by Tha Rulez
    Vigilante Modding
    If you’re not a Moderator, don’t act like one. Rich has selected a few people he trusts to keep an eye on conversations here. Please refrain from chastising other posters over breaking the rules, especially concerning minor things. The proper response when you see someone breaking these rules is to report the post as discussed above or to a PM to the local Moderator. At most, you may courteously link to this thread. But whatever you do, do not tell other posters what to do, what rules they have broken, that they are "spamming", etc. Posters who do so excessively will be issued an Infraction for their actions.
    That said, I don't believe what Pyran stated is modding of any sort other than a friendly suggestion that we don't slide any further in that direction. I apologize for anything that I may have caused trending in that direction.

    <3 you guys!
    Last edited by Keld Denar; 2009-08-09 at 06:44 PM.
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    _________________________________
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