Relationship Woes and Advice, Trip to Baator

[Serpentine]

Jalor: Well, you could do it like this: when the restraint expires (NOT before!), use the number she gave you to call her, introduce yourself as that guy she met at the grocery store, and then ask, "So when can I get my Firefly DVDs back?" Be perfectly polite and reasonable about it, of course, and give her no reason to call the police on you again, but be firm about your DVDs.

[Coidzor]

....Good call, Serps.

But yeah, I imagine gathering some proof of ownership and of the trade off for if you have to press charges for theft...

[Quincunx]

Please tell me that, at some point during this whole sorry encounter, whether you realized she doesn't want any contact with you and ignored her desires in favor of yours, or were just enough of a social lackwit not to recognize that, since she was changing her lifestyle just to get away from you, she might not be pleased by your conversation.

Gem Flower, sounds like you had a case of social lackwit on your hands--not malicious, but annoying. If the last half-a-page was any indication, speaking up about it wouldn't have gotten him to stop anyway, so why bloody bother. Let's endure the attention, and drown our sorrows.

[xPANCAKEx]

Jalor: Well, you could do it like this: when the restraint expires (NOT before!), use the number she gave you to call her, introduce yourself as that guy she met at the grocery store, and then ask, "So when can I get my Firefly DVDs back?" Be perfectly polite and reasonable about it, of course, and give her no reason to call the police on you again, but be firm about your DVDs.

nope - even if he waits til the order expires to continue contact, then he will have still broken the terms of the order, there by opening himself up to prosecution... very unwise/hazardous. It may come across in her eyes as malicious in her eyes that he didn't say "don't you recognise me? im not allowed near you" as a response to the first time she said hello

and JALOR - who struck up the conversation at the supermarket, you or her? either way - really... just don't. A DVD box set is not worth potential jail time. If you really want them back, go through legal channels.

[Renegade Paladin]

Please tell me that, at some point during this whole sorry encounter, whether you realized she doesn't want any contact with you and ignored her desires in favor of yours, or were just enough of a social lackwit not to recognize that, since she was changing her lifestyle just to get away from you, she might not be pleased by your conversation.

So it was right for her to brand him a rapist for attempting to get an explanation out of her? Recall, even if nothing else she had possession of his property and still does. Jalor has every reason to be upset, although he's going about it the wrong way; he's not a mind reader unless I missed something and she used the power of the law to slander and de facto steal from him. Rather than castigate him for being a "social lackwit," as you put it, how about some recognition that he's dealing with a morally bankrupt individual here?

[xPANCAKEx]

So it was right for her to brand him a rapist for attempting to get an explanation out of her? Recall, even if nothing else she had possession of his property and still does. Jalor has every reason to be upset, although he's going about it the wrong way; he's not a mind reader unless I missed something and she used the power of the law to slander and de facto steal from him. Rather than castigate him for being a "social lackwit," as you put it, how about some recognition that he's dealing with a morally bankrupt individual here?

he is indeed - but it still doesn't change the immutable fact that breaking the terms of the restraining order to retrieve a lost DVD when legal channels have and always will be open to him is silly on a vast order of magnitude

and also begs the question why Jalor didn't try (through said legal channels) to rectify the propery loss and personal damage at the time - although the latter may be accounted for by laziness by his own admission

[Quincunx]

A woman disrupting her normal life to avoid you is not interested in your reasons.
All that she desires from you, the follower, is that you STOP FOLLOWING HER.
Too often, all of the non-getting-the-law-involved cues for the guy to stop following her are ignored.

Now, I'm not the type to appeal to an outside authority, nor am I afraid to engage with creepy* guys, so if it came down to the scene in the lunchroom, I would've cussed Jalor out** verbally and at the top of my lungs. It has less lasting impact on the criminal record and might be the kinder course of action. However, there is nothing morally bankrupt about appealing to the outside authority. It is morally bankrupt that she didn't think they would answer to any lesser charge than 'attempted rape'.

*He's said he is perceived as 'creepy', and I'm pretty sure this incident was the time he realized it.

**Including the essential idea of "never speak to me again".

[Renegade Paladin]

A woman disrupting her normal life to avoid you is not interested in your reasons.
All that she desires from you, the follower, is that you STOP FOLLOWING HER.
Too often, all of the non-getting-the-law-involved cues for the guy to stop following her are ignored.

Now, I'm not the type to appeal to an outside authority, nor am I afraid to engage with creepy* guys, so if it came down to the scene in the lunchroom, I would've cussed Jalor out** verbally and at the top of my lungs. It has less lasting impact on the criminal record and might be the kinder course of action. However, there is nothing morally bankrupt about appealing to the outside authority. It is morally bankrupt that she didn't think they would answer to any lesser charge than 'attempted rape'.

*He's said he is perceived as 'creepy', and I'm pretty sure this incident was the time he realized it.

**Including the essential idea of "never speak to me again".

Okay, so how about you get over yourself and remember that she's apparently a thief and a liar?

They were close friends. She cut off all contact abruptly and with no explanation. I don't know about you, but I would want to know what's going on. It's certainly within her rights to behave as she did, right up until the point where she stole his property and falsely accused him of crimes, but that doesn't make it a good idea.

I'd have taken the hint that she didn't want to talk to me when it became obvious that she was working so hard at avoidance, but in this situation I'd still want to retrieve my property. I'd have resorted to a letter rather than hunting her down, but Jalor didn't do anything strictly wrong according to his account, while she did several times over.

[Erloas]

Granted we only have one side of the story with Jalor, it really does sound like the girl got freaked out by the thought of a relationship and overacted to everything.
If she just suddenly one day started avoiding him and not talk to him at all. It sounds like she never even told him anything at all.

If you had a friend that simply stopped talking to you and avoiding you one day you would try to find out why, regardless of the genders involved.

Given there is a lot of story missing and time frames and such. We don't know if it was only 1-2 days between when she started to avoid him or if it was months.


As for getting in touch with her again is a really questionable area. It sounds like the first incident was in high school and of course peoples' reactions to relationship sort of things in high school can go all sorts of ways. If you call her now she may have a completely different perspective on what happened in school and things would be fine. She might also just get really mad again too, there really is no way to know.

[xPANCAKEx]

As for getting in touch with her again is a really questionable area. It sounds like the first incident was in high school and of course peoples' reactions to relationship sort of things in high school can go all sorts of ways. If you call her now she may have a completely different perspective on what happened in school and things would be fine. She might also just get really mad again too, there really is no way to know.

there is also still a RESTRAINING ORDER - so its all moot point

[Quincunx]

.. .I'd have resorted to a letter rather than hunting her down, but Jalor didn't do anything strictly wrong according to his account. . .

Continuing to pursue a person (especially physically) after that person has made it clear your pursuit is unwelcome (and before your accusations of her character, Renegade Paladin) is WRONG. The "no" in "no communication" also falls under the "No Means No" rule.

[Renegade Paladin]

Continuing to pursue a person (especially physically) after that person has made it clear your pursuit is unwelcome (and before your accusations of her character, Renegade Paladin) is WRONG. The "no" in "no communication" also falls under the "No Means No" rule.

And stealing is also WRONG, as is slander. So you think that if you can sucker someone into loaning you his property and then decide that you wish no further contact, it's perfectly okay to hold onto his stuff because it would be wrong for him to contact you to arrange its return?

And yes, no means no. If his story is accurate (which is the assumption I'm operating from; we have no other source of information) then he was never told "no" before she got a court to do it for her, so the fact that no means no is totally irrelevant because it never entered play.

If his story is not accurate, of course, then neither are conclusions drawn from it, but I should think he knows enough to know that advice given on faulty premises is unlikely to be good, and leave it to him to judge whether we're operating from accurate information.

[Umael]

Jalor: While what she did was wrong (slander, thief), getting back at her is playing with fire. There are possible legal repercussions. Get backup or back off - or else guard your back if you drop the soap.

Nothing's happened still (and it's going to stay that way), but we've bonded more than ever. It's going to be hard to put the brakes on it now, and the hell of it is, at this point I'm not sure I want to.

Maybe it's just me, but... what's the problem here again?

[Renegade Paladin]

Maybe it's just me, but... what's the problem here again?

This is a continuance from the end of the previous thread.

Major problem: She's married. It's a polyamorous relationship, so her husband is okay with it, but I'm not sure I would be.

Minor problem: A ten year age gap, with me the younger. (24 and 34, so technically within the half your age plus seven rule, but still.)

Other major problem, that cropped up after we realized we felt about each other that way: She was diagnosed with herpes on Friday.

That should do for the catching up.

[Umael]

This is a continuance from the end of the previous thread.

Major problem: She's married. It's a polyamorous relationship, so her husband is okay with it, but I'm not sure I would be.

Other major problem, that cropped up after we realized we felt about each other that way: She was diagnosed with herpes on Friday.

That should do for the catching up.

I'm sorry, but you misunderstood.

I'm not saying that I needed a recap.

I'm saying, maybe it's me, but I don't see a problem with your current situation.

1) She's married. She's polyamorous. Her husband is okay with it. You're not sure you would be, where I'm assuming you mean "okay with it" where "it" means the notion of being one of her lovers but not her primary lover.

Either you are attracted to her and are willing to forego being her primary or you are more interested in being the primary in your romantic/sexual relationships.

I know where I would stand, but that's me.

2) This should just enforce your decision, either way. Either it makes it easier for you to resist or it tells you that if you are going to go for it, you are going to go for it for sure.

I know that if anyone I ever dated had herpes, I would be very thankful that I was told before we did anything. I gathered from my (brief) research that herpes is painful and it has no cure, but it is not serious and the flare-ups occur less and less often. If I was going to be serious with my lover before I found out, I would just resign myself to the extreme likelihood that I would get it as well and I would deal with it. If I wasn't going to be serious, then I would just make sure I would be there for my friend.

(Incidentally, I am sorry for her. It is an unfortunate thing to have occured.)

[Pyrian]

The proper channel by which to recover borrowed property under such circumstances is through a lawyer. Given that that would likely cost more than the DVD's, I would simply write them (and her) off as a loss.

[Keld Denar]

The "no" in "no communication" also falls under the "No Means No" rule.

This rule?

Spoiler

Show

[Quincunx]

@/\: *snrk* Yes. That rule.

Thank you, Erloas. Speaking up for friendship was not only good in itself, but I think it illuminated why people don't seem to understand that continuing contact in these cases is wrong.

Short version: It's no longer a friendship.

Long version: When you ask your friend out, you're asking that person to stop thinking of you as a friend and start thinking of you as a relationship. What if they make that mental adjustment, and still decide 'no'? Now you're the ex. Safest course of action towards the ex is to remove the ex from your life as much as possible. Safest course of action for the ex is not to pursue the one who just (non-verbally, remember, and yet the message got partially through) dumped you.

Also, seeing what little effect saying "no" is having in this conversation, I'm tempted to skip that step altogether and reach for a restraining order myself.

[Erloas]

Long version: When you ask your friend out, you're asking that person to stop thinking of you as a friend and start thinking of you as a relationship. What if they make that mental adjustment, and still decide 'no'? Now you're the ex. Safest course of action towards the ex is to remove the ex from your life as much as possible. Safest course of action for the ex is not to pursue the one who just (non-verbally, remember, and yet the message got partially through) dumped you.

Well that depends which story we are talking about. In Gem Flower's case she told him no and he didn't handle it well. To me it doesn't sound like she handled it all that well either. Though he was clearly in the wrong, given the context and apparent age, it doesn't seem like it was that bad.

In Jalor's case though, it doesn't sound like she ever even told him no. It sounds like he didn't even know she knew he had a crush on her until well after the incident. It wasn't that he asked her out and she turned him down, he never said anything at all to her and she simply started avoiding and ignoring him. In that case trying to talk to her wouldn't seem out of place at all. There are a lot of reasons why someone might get mad at their friend and not want to talk to them for a while, many of which would have nothing to do with a potential relationship.

[Renegade Paladin]

I'm sorry, but you misunderstood.

I'm not saying that I needed a recap.

I'm saying, maybe it's me, but I don't see a problem with your current situation.

1) She's married. She's polyamorous. Her husband is okay with it. You're not sure you would be, where I'm assuming you mean "okay with it" where "it" means the notion of being one of her lovers but not her primary lover.

Either you are attracted to her and are willing to forego being her primary or you are more interested in being the primary in your romantic/sexual relationships.

I know where I would stand, but that's me.

2) This should just enforce your decision, either way. Either it makes it easier for you to resist or it tells you that if you are going to go for it, you are going to go for it for sure.

I know that if anyone I ever dated had herpes, I would be very thankful that I was told before we did anything. I gathered from my (brief) research that herpes is painful and it has no cure, but it is not serious and the flare-ups occur less and less often. If I was going to be serious with my lover before I found out, I would just resign myself to the extreme likelihood that I would get it as well and I would deal with it. If I wasn't going to be serious, then I would just make sure I would be there for my friend.

(Incidentally, I am sorry for her. It is an unfortunate thing to have occured.)

Yes, well the other problem and the reason I decided to ask for advice in the first place is that we have a fairly involved non-romantic relationship that could/would be seriously complicated or even damaged by either a shoot-down or (though less so) by simply ignoring the issue.

Since the post you quoted in the first place, she and her husband have been to see their marriage counselor, after which she and I had a long talk last night. We're going to take it slow and see where this takes us; if either of us is not comfortable at any point, we're both mature enough that we can say it didn't work out and go on as friends. The one thing everyone else agrees on (both of them and their counselor) is that my being there for her kept her from falling apart after the diagnosis, so on balance it was a good thing. So I suppose the problem is about as resolved as it's going to get until this shakes out one way or the other.

[Umael]

The one thing everyone else agrees on (both of them and their counselor) is that my being there for her kept her from falling apart after the diagnosis, so on balance it was a good thing. So I suppose the problem is about as resolved as it's going to get until this shakes out one way or the other.

Looks like you got the most important part down - kudos for being there for her when she needed it.

[Renegade Paladin]

@/\: *snrk* Yes. That rule.

Thank you, Erloas. Speaking up for friendship was not only good in itself, but I think it illuminated why people don't seem to understand that continuing contact in these cases is wrong.

Short version: It's no longer a friendship.

Long version: When you ask your friend out, you're asking that person to stop thinking of you as a friend and start thinking of you as a relationship. What if they make that mental adjustment, and still decide 'no'? Now you're the ex. Safest course of action towards the ex is to remove the ex from your life as much as possible. Safest course of action for the ex is not to pursue the one who just (non-verbally, remember, and yet the message got partially through) dumped you.

Also, seeing what little effect saying "no" is having in this conversation, I'm tempted to skip that step altogether and reach for a restraining order myself.

Okay, let's try this again.

First, there was no saying "no." She cut off all contact with no indication as to why. I don't know about you, but I feel other people are due at least enough respect to be told why I no longer wish to associate with them when that happens. Immediately starting to treat a friend like dirt when he hadn't done anything wrong is despicable (though unlike her later acts not criminal) in itself.

Second, I would never go out with someone I couldn't consider a friend, and don't see why someone has to stop being a friend the moment they're asked out. If you can't have a basic friendship, the most basic friendly relationship there is, what basis is there for any relationship at all? If you can't get along with the person you're dating on that level, what do you expect to build on? Your assertion is ludicrous.

[Pyrian]

We've already been told there's another - radically different - side to the story. I am not inclined to be so quick to issue condemnations either way.

[Jalor]

I'm surprised at all the discussion about my situation, considering I never even asked for advice. I only said something mostly sarcastic, and then realized it would be hilarious poetic justice once I was in the legal clear.

and JALOR - who struck up the conversation at the supermarket, you or her?

Her. I was attempting to purchase fruit, but apparently they don't sell decent oranges in Florida. She was there, but I didn't see her. I said "This food is problematic". She started a conversation, having caught my Firefly reference but not my XKCD reference. When she left, she gave me her number entirely unsolicited. I'm pretty sure I'm safe, unless the state expects me to remain vigilant lest we end up shopping at the same Winn-Dixie.

[Coidzor]

That is pretty ridiculous.

I was always able to get good citrus when I lived in Florida.

Maybe you're doing it wrong?

Edit: ...Dangit. Now you're making me miss having access to blood oranges and temple oranges.

...Also, it's still damned bizarre in any event. I dunno what the debate was over other than your illadvised comment about intent-to-shenanigans. Mostly because of concern for your safety.

[Jalor]

That is pretty ridiculous.

I was always able to get good citrus when I lived in Florida.

Maybe you're doing it wrong?

I think it was the store. I now walk to the same Publix my parents drive to, which takes about ten minutes more and has good produce.

Edit: There's no need to worry about me, if anyone is. I've survived a hell of a lot of my own stupidity, and I like to think that I learn from it.

[Coidzor]

There's no need to worry about me, if anyone is. I've survived a hell of a lot of my own stupidity, and I like to think that I learn from it.

Namely, to try to avoid too much more stupidity. haha.

Ahh, publix. How I remember thee....

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Jalor: *snrk* I have no idea what to tell you. I mean, the smart thing would be to just leave her the hell alone. Legally, she can make your life suck even after the order expires. I've danced with the law before, I know how this crap goes down. That said, I am amused by just how odd the situation is. It's like something that would happen to me.

[Jalor]

Jalor: *snrk* I have no idea what to tell you. I mean, the smart thing would be to just leave her the hell alone. Legally, she can make your life suck even after the order expires. I've danced with the law before, I know how this crap goes down. That said, I am amused by just how odd the situation is. It's like something that would happen to me.

What could she do to me? I've never initiated physical contact with her, although she has with me. There are no grounds for further charges, I think.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

What could she do to me? I've never initiated physical contact with her, although she has with me. There are no grounds for further charges, I think.

*snort* It's already on record that she's had an order against you. In the case of any he said/she said down the line, you'd be boned. It's just that simple. Like I said, I've been unjustly bent over the table by the law before, I know just how little its officers really care to waste time with trivial things like "details". In your shoes, I'd avoid her like she was leper.