Worst "VS" Arguments You've Heard?

[GoC]

Well, Superman is highly vulnerable to magic, but if Supernova really works the way it seems to (rather than being an illusory attack) it could make him stronger.

That clip has so many errors (in fact it requires a total rewrite of all known physics and common sense laws) that when someone posted that as an argument in the vs thread I lost some of my respect for humanity.

[Jahkaivah]

It's not like they can run out of ammo, so saturation bombardment would work - assuming you didn't care about things like collateral damage, you'd hit it eventually.

Can you guess I don't live in England?

Depends on what Unplottable means (which I believe was never elaborated upon), could mean it exists in another demension whereby hitting it is impossible.

Also magic force-fields.

[The Glyphstone]

Depends on what Unplottable means (which I believe was never elaborated upon), could mean it exists in another demension whereby hitting it is impossible.

Also magic force-fields.

Not elaborated on, but there are circumstantial arguments that Unplottable is exactly what it says and not a lot more - for example, the Quidditch World Cup Stadium was said to be enchanted to be both Unplottable and have Muggle-Repelling charms all over it...if the former made it both physically inaccessible as well as unmappable, the latter would be redundant. And the Fidelius Charm seems to be the ultimate in 'different-dimension' magic, which again would mean making 13 Grimmauld Place both Unplottable and under the Fidelius pointless.

Magic force fields are a better possibility, but Shield Charms seem to be, for the most part, personal defenses. It's definitely possible that enough powerful wizards working together could throw up a strong enough shield, and it might be easier for a stationary location too - D&D certainly has enough precedent in mythals, wondrous architecture, lair wards, etc. However, I'm still going to fondly embrace my mental image of one hundred-twenty centimeter Hellbores melting Hogwards into slag.

[Mx.Silver]

That clip has so many errors (in fact it requires a total rewrite of all known physics and common sense laws) that when someone posted that as an argument in the vs thread I lost some of my respect for humanity.

Not to mention that if it actually did that the second he used it would be an immediate Game Over.

[Zevox]

Well, Superman is highly vulnerable to magic, but if Supernova really works the way it seems to (rather than being an illusory attack) it could make him stronger.

...I have never played FF7, so that was new to me. Watching that clip makes my brain hurt. It makes no sense whatsoever, especially when you consider that they're showing planets from our solar system, yet there's no way in hell that any FF game takes place on Earth, at least none that I've ever played (and Wikipedia confirms my suspicion that FF 7 is no exception, since the world it describes under the "setting" section is nothing like Earth).

And really, an attack that takes two full minutes to show? And here I thought Fire Emblem's animations in the 3D games slowed battles down a lot. Apparently, they have nothing on FF7.

Zevox

[chiasaur11]

...I have never played FF7, so that was new to me. Watching that clip makes my brain hurt. It makes no sense whatsoever, especially when you consider that they're showing planets from our solar system, yet there's no way in hell that any FF game takes place on Earth, at least none that I've ever played (and Wikipedia confirms my suspicion that FF 7 is no exception, since the world it describes under the "setting" section is nothing like Earth).

And really, an attack that takes two full minutes to show? And here I thought Fire Emblem's animations in the 3D games slowed battles down a lot. Apparently, they have nothing on FF7.

Zevox

And Fire Emblem at least lets you turn the animations off.

[Zevox]

And Fire Emblem at least lets you turn the animations off.

Yeah, there's that too, though I didn't want to mention it since I'm not sure if FF7 does or doesn't. I know FF10 had an option that minimized the animations for some attacks - at the very least, I remember being able to shorten the time that Aeon limit breaks took. But I take it from your comment that FF7 doesn't have such an option. Oh boy...

Zevox

[Kris Strife]

That clip has so many errors (in fact it requires a total rewrite of all known physics and common sense laws) that when someone posted that as an argument in the vs thread I lost some of my respect for humanity.

The animation for Supernova was enough to make you loose faith in humanity, but you still had some left? How does that happen?

[Jade_Tarem]

Not elaborated on, but there are circumstantial arguments that Unplottable is exactly what it says and not a lot more - for example, the Quidditch World Cup Stadium was said to be enchanted to be both Unplottable and have Muggle-Repelling charms all over it...if the former made it both physically inaccessible as well as unmappable, the latter would be redundant. And the Fidelius Charm seems to be the ultimate in 'different-dimension' magic, which again would mean making 13 Grimmauld Place both Unplottable and under the Fidelius pointless.

Magic force fields are a better possibility, but Shield Charms seem to be, for the most part, personal defenses. It's definitely possible that enough powerful wizards working together could throw up a strong enough shield, and it might be easier for a stationary location too - D&D certainly has enough precedent in mythals, wondrous architecture, lair wards, etc. However, I'm still going to fondly embrace my mental image of one hundred-twenty centimeter Hellbores melting Hogwards into slag.

I don't think we even need a fantasy army to take Hogwarts. Voldemort always cracked me up as a big bad, since everyone was considering him to be a worldwide threat. The wizards of the Potter universe in general seem to be terribly selfish and cruel (not to mention patronizing and arrogant), actually, since they think nothing of invading your brain and wiping out large quantities of your memories to preserve their precious masquerade, which only exists because they don't want to help society at large. The much better reason for not revealing themselves, that the muggles might freak out and kill them all, was never mentioned.

Actually, the whole seventh book kinda went wonky as far as forgetting that people without magic powers are, in fact, smarter than the average insect and can be much more violent and dangerous than "He who is too gosh darn scary to be named." In fact, most of the people I know are more clever and mentally stable than the main cast of the Harry Potter books. This is not to mention that the wizard's ability to trump technology is far too limited to compensate for modern warfare. I would like to see Voldemort stop, for instance, a nuclear holocaust. By all accounts, most wizards don't even know how batteries work - do you really think they'll be able to nix something like an SAS strike force or a platoon of Navy Seals? Maximum firepower, as far as wizards of the Potterverse go, is displayed by (of all people) Wormtail when he blows up a street full of innocent people. Ultimately though, a bunch of kooky old men in robes waving wands and shouting in garbled Latin do not make a good army when your enemy has weapons that can put ordinance through a stone wall from two miles away and weapons that can vaporize cities.

By far, the Harry Potter wizards' greatest power is secrecy - between their ability to hide themselves and their aforementioned willingness to blatantly violate the Geneva Convention whenever they screw up, they can do a pretty good job of convincing everyone they don't exist. Once you have another force actually fighting them, the mighty archmagi of Harry Potter's world don't look so big and bad. If, for some reason, there is a magical "I win" spell to defeat long range bombardment, expect those oh-so-wacky, clueless, and not-very-dangerous muggles to manage something more sinister. Bribery works - they might manage to tempt a less-scrupulous wizard into filling them in on the salient details of their enemies, and if necessary such a person might also be able to help counteract the "shield." Follow that up with turning the tactics against them - Hogwarts is said to be unfindable, but it also has to exist somewhere (otherwise, as mentioned already in the thread, there would be no need to hide it). The thing is, if the muggles really, really have to win, they can pick a semi-large area of England and carpet bomb it to claim victory. If they get really desperate, they can nuke it, and frankly I'd like to see the wizards stop a gamma radiation burst from killing everyone when they don't even know what it is.

I guess what I'm trying to get at here is that ignorance works both ways. Sure, the wizards are good at keeping secrets, but they don't really strive to examine the world outside their broomstick riding club, and in a situation where people who make war serious business come for them, that's really going to hurt, unfindable castle or not.

[The Glyphstone]

I don't think we even need a fantasy army to take Hogwarts. Voldemort always cracked me up as a big bad, since everyone was considering him to be a worldwide threat. The wizards of the Potter universe in general seem to be terribly selfish and cruel (not to mention patronizing and arrogant), actually, since they think nothing of invading your brain and wiping out large quantities of your memories to preserve their precious masquerade, which only exists because they don't want to help society at large. The much better reason for not revealing themselves, that the muggles might freak out and kill them all, was never mentioned.

Actually, the whole seventh book kinda went wonky as far as forgetting that people without magic powers are, in fact, smarter than the average insect and can be much more violent and dangerous than "He who is too gosh darn scary to be named." In fact, most of the people I know are more clever and mentally stable than the main cast of the Harry Potter books. This is not to mention that the wizard's ability to trump technology is far too limited to compensate for modern warfare. I would like to see Voldemort stop, for instance, a nuclear holocaust. By all accounts, most wizards don't even know how batteries work - do you really think they'll be able to nix something like an SAS strike force or a platoon of Navy Seals? Maximum firepower, as far as wizards of the Potterverse go, is displayed by (of all people) Wormtail when he blows up a street full of innocent people. Ultimately though, a bunch of kooky old men in robes waving wands and shouting in garbled Latin do not make a good army when your enemy has weapons that can put ordinance through a stone wall from two miles away and weapons that can vaporize cities.

By far, the Harry Potter wizards' greatest power is secrecy - between their ability to hide themselves and their aforementioned willingness to blatantly violate the Geneva Convention whenever they screw up, they can do a pretty good job of convincing everyone they don't exist. Once you have another force actually fighting them, the mighty archmagi of Harry Potter's world don't look so big and bad. If, for some reason, there is a magical "I win" spell to defeat long range bombardment, expect those oh-so-wacky, clueless, and not-very-dangerous muggles to manage something more sinister. Bribery works - they might manage to tempt a less-scrupulous wizard into filling them in on the salient details of their enemies, and if necessary such a person might also be able to help counteract the "shield." Follow that up with turning the tactics against them - Hogwarts is said to be unfindable, but it also has to exist somewhere (otherwise, as mentioned already in the thread, there would be no need to hide it). The thing is, if the muggles really, really have to win, they can pick a semi-large area of England and carpet bomb it to claim victory. If they get really desperate, they can nuke it, and frankly I'd like to see the wizards stop a gamma radiation burst from killing everyone when they don't even know what it is.

I guess what I'm trying to get at here is that ignorance works both ways. Sure, the wizards are good at keeping secrets, but they don't really strive to examine the world outside their broomstick riding club, and in a situation where people who make war serious business is come for them, that's really going to hurt, unfindable castle or not.

Very much in agreement, but if we take this much further, it won't qualify as a pathetic VS. argument, due to there being actual reasoned arguments. We need to stick to things like 'Bolo wins cause it has antigravity and can just fly over hogwartz then fall, even if it shorts out itll crush them'.

[Prime32]

...I have never played FF7, so that was new to me. Watching that clip makes my brain hurt. It makes no sense whatsoever, especially when you consider that they're showing planets from our solar system, yet there's no way in hell that any FF game takes place on Earth, at least none that I've ever played (and Wikipedia confirms my suspicion that FF 7 is no exception, since the world it describes under the "setting" section is nothing like Earth).

And really, an attack that takes two full minutes to show? And here I thought Fire Emblem's animations in the 3D games slowed battles down a lot. Apparently, they have nothing on FF7.

Zevox

It gets worse. He uses Supernova multiple times in the fight. For comparison, this was the Japanese animation.

[Zevox]

It gets worse. He uses Supernova multiple times in the fight.

Sheesh, so that damn animation wastes something like six minutes of time minimum throughout the fight? Damn, if he uses it too much, it could wind up taking up more time than the rest of the actual fight...

For comparison, this was the Japanese animation.

Well that's much better. 1/4 of the time and just gives the impression that the whole planets-and-space motif is mere artistic license to make the move look cool. Why the hell did they change it for the NA release?

Zevox

[Mx.Silver]

Sheesh, so that damn animation wastes something like six minutes of time minimum throughout the fight? Damn, if he uses it too much, it could wind up taking up more time than the rest of the actual fight...


Well that's much better. 1/4 of the time and just gives the impression that the whole planets-and-space motif is mere artistic license to make the move look cool. Why the hell did they change it for the NA release?

Zevox

Because the Japanese version wasn't X-treme!!! enough presumably.

[Lamech]

Hey question about the star wars V star trek. One: Didn't spieces 8472 have some stuipidly powerful planet breaking ships and even more importantly, wasn't their invasion forces something that stretched for light years... I think that might just stomp everything if they fought. (IIRC they ran as soon as they could get hurt.) Two: Is there a reason star trek can't while in warp beam nukes aboard? 'Cause from the latest star trek movie they didn't seem to have to worry about ships being in warp, and star wars lacks "treck shields". Three: Does star wars have time travel? IIRC star trek does so that could flatten star wars instantly, (and vica versa if star wars does)

P.S. I don't actually know a whole lot about star trek tech, (and less about star wars), I'm curious though.

[Renegade Paladin]

Hey question about the star wars V star trek. One: Didn't spieces 8472 have some stuipidly powerful planet breaking ships and even more importantly, wasn't their invasion forces something that stretched for light years... I think that might just stomp everything if they fought. (IIRC they ran as soon as they could get hurt.) Two: Is there a reason star trek can't while in warp beam nukes aboard? 'Cause from the latest star trek movie they didn't seem to have to worry about ships being in warp, and star wars lacks "treck shields". Three: Does star wars have time travel? IIRC star trek does so that could flatten star wars instantly, (and vica versa if star wars does)

P.S. I don't actually know a whole lot about star trek tech, (and less about star wars), I'm curious though.

One: Species 8472 did run as soon as they could get hurt, and believe you me Star Wars military weaponry can hurt them.

Two: Yes, there is. First, they've never exhibited the capacity to use the transporters to beam things outside the ship while at warp. Second, Star Wars vessels do indeed have shields; there's no reason why they wouldn't stop the transporters the same way "Trek" shields do, especially because we know that magnetic fields are part of their defensive systems and transporters are defeated by a planetary magnetic pole.

Three: Star Trek doesn't have consistent, controllable time travel, or at least the Federation doesn't. Even if they did, they'd have to know enough about the history of their opponents to select an appropriate time and place to go back to, and since the Star Wars galaxy has had thousands of years of consolidated power and superior military technology, good luck finding one that will do any good.

[chiasaur11]

One: Species 8472 did run as soon as they could get hurt, and believe you me Star Wars military weaponry can hurt them.

Two: Yes, there is. First, they've never exhibited the capacity to use the transporters to beam things outside the ship while at warp. Second, Star Wars vessels do indeed have shields; there's no reason why they wouldn't stop the transporters the same way "Trek" shields do, especially because we know that magnetic fields are part of their defensive systems and transporters are defeated by a planetary magnetic pole.

Three: Star Trek doesn't have consistent, controllable time travel, or at least the Federation doesn't. Even if they did, they'd have to know enough about the history of their opponents to select an appropriate time and place to go back to, and since the Star Wars galaxy has had thousands of years of consolidated power and superior military technology, good luck finding one that will do any good.

Yeah.

Go back to the wrong point, and suddenly you swap Darth Vader for Revan.

Not a notable improvement in tactical positioning.

[Lamech]

Yeah.

Go back to the wrong point, and suddenly you swap Darth Vader for Revan.

Not a notable improvement in tactical positioning.

Rinse, repeat, so on and so forth. Find a point where they don't open fire. Then trade some crappy transporter tech for histroy books. Go back to when they lack anything above say... a monkey brain. Wipe out the planets that will host intelligent life. Laugh. Hope the writers doesn't end the universe with a paradox.

One: Species 8472 did run as soon as they could get hurt, and believe you me Star Wars military weaponry can hurt them.

I suspected that, but if species 8472 was perpared to except loses what would happen? Generally the first thing that is lost in vs threads "is why would these two ever fight?" Species 8472 won't attack since it is would get hurt, and the star wars universe probably couldn't get to them.

Oh wait, I have another one... ignoring the whole "don't screw around too much" wouldn't Q flatten star wars?

[Cristo Meyers]

Oh wait, I have another one... ignoring the whole "don't screw around too much" wouldn't Q flatten star wars?

He'd probably wipe out one planet before the other Q gang up on him and make him wish he'd never been born.

[GoC]

Two: Yes, there is. First, they've never exhibited the capacity to use the transporters to beam things outside the ship while at warp. Second, Star Wars vessels do indeed have shields; there's no reason why they wouldn't stop the transporters the same way "Trek" shields do, especially because we know that magnetic fields are part of their defensive systems and transporters are defeated by a planetary magnetic pole.

1. They have on multiple occasions demonstrated that capability. I recall when transporter range was discussed that someone was beamed down to a planet after they'd been going away from it for five minutes at warp. Also, if they can transport into the ship there's no reason they can't transport out.
2. They have also been demonstrated to be totally un-phased by the magnetic north pole. Really, let's drop this. Star Trek is inconsistent and this argument will go nowhere.

Three: Star Trek doesn't have consistent, controllable time travel, or at least the Federation doesn't. Even if they did, they'd have to know enough about the history of their opponents to select an appropriate time and place to go back to, and since the Star Wars galaxy has had thousands of years of consolidated power and superior military technology, good luck finding one that will do any good.

Consistent? The universe itself is inconsistent.
Controllable? Star Trek IV - The Voyage Home.

[Jade_Tarem]

Assuming that they did go back in time and wipe out intelligent life in the SW galaxy, they would then have to contend with the Yuuzhan Vong. And trust me, if the Federation thought the Dominion was bad, they're going to be in for a nasty shock when the Vong arrive and start butchering all the silly people in pajamas.

Also, Zonama Sekot isn't in the SW History books, and might have something to say about the destruction of its home universe.

Still, GoC is correct and this will go nowhere - SW is even more inconsistent than Trek.

[Mx.Silver]

One arguement often used in verses threads that particularly annoys me is rules exploits. Essentially, if something ludicrously over-powered is possible by twisting exploiting loopholes or poor wording in the rules structure to certain games the arguement goes that this therefore has to apply in a normal contest, even though such contests tend to involve characters that use completely different rules (or don't have any at all) and that versus contests tend to be based on character faction portrayal (or fluff if you'd rather) which in the overwhelming majority of cases tends not to be too closely tied to the rules; which are often abstractions.

This can come in many forms, but the one that annoys me most is Pun-pun. Now, I'm not a fan of D&D and I'll admit my knowledge is limited, but from what I can tell he is essentially a rules-exploit that's been given a name (i.e. not even a character) and as such is presumably rather dependant on the existence of D&D rules to be able to even exist at all, yet he still crops up in these things almost as often as Squirrel Girl and to much the same effect (her problem has already been dealt with earlier in the thread). A few others are kicking around as well though, althought they aren't quite as over-used.

[Prime32]

This can come in many forms, but the one that annoys me most is Pun-pun. Now, I'm not a fan of D&D and I'll admit my knowledge is limited, but from what I can tell he is essentially a rules-exploit that's been given a name (i.e. not even a character) and as such is presumably rather dependant on the existence of D&D rules to be able to even exist at all, yet he still crops up in these things almost as often as Squirrel Girl and to much the same effect (her problem has already been dealt with earlier in the thread). A few others are kicking around as well though, althought they aren't quite as over-used.

Pun-Pun is a character who copies the ability of sarrukhs (the race who created the yuan-ti) to grant abilities to non-sarrukhs, then uses it on himself ad infinitum. For instance, he gives himself access to a spell which creates perfect copies of creatures, clones a few dozen gods and absorbs their power. In the same way, if any creature exists with an immunity to something, Pun-Pun can copy it (and he can easily learn about them with the senses of a god).

It's just Mega Manning taken Beyond the Impossible.

[Agrippa]

Because the Japanese version wasn't X-treme!!! enough presumably.

I like the Japanese version a lot more. It makes more sense than Sephiroth destroying and recreating an entire galaxy just to kill three people and it doesn't take as long as the American version. Besides, if Sephiroth used either version of Supernova on let's say Superman, Apollo (The Authority) or a sufficiently prepared Iron Man, he'd go down just as hard. The sun is nothing more than a big star, right?

[Nerd-o-rama]

Actually, the sun is a pretty small to middling star in the grand scheme of things.

[Zevox]

The sun is nothing more than a big star, right?

Nothing more than an average star at this point in its life, actually. You want big ones you need to look for red or blue giants, which can be hundreds of times the size of the sun. Hell, as the sun ages, it will eventually become a red giant itself, and if nothing alters the orbit of the planets it will be big enough then to engulf all the inner planets of our solar system, Earth included.

Zevox

[Agrippa]

Actually Nerd-o-rama and Zevox, you're both right. My mistake.

[Mx.Silver]

I like the Japanese version a lot more. It makes more sense than Sephiroth destroying and recreating an entire galaxy just to kill three people and it doesn't take as long as the American version. Besides, if Sephiroth used either version of Supernova on let's say Superman, Apollo (The Authority) or a sufficiently prepared Iron Man, he'd go down just as hard. The sun is nothing more than a big star, right?

Oh I prefer it as well, but I still think that was most likely the reason. Bear in mind the change happened when the game arrived in the US. During the 90s. With a target audience of mainly teenage boys. So yeah...

[Dervag]

Rinse, repeat, so on and so forth. Find a point where they don't open fire. Then trade some crappy transporter tech for histroy books. Go back to when they lack anything above say... a monkey brain. Wipe out the planets that will host intelligent life. Laugh. Hope the writers doesn't end the universe with a paradox.

If they could do that reliably, they'd have already done it against their many powerful enemies.

Oh wait, I have another one... ignoring the whole "don't screw around too much" wouldn't Q flatten star wars?

Why would he bother? What's so bad about them that he'd feel compelled to do so? I mean, he might screw with them for the hell of it, but I doubt he'd just annihilate their civilization for giggles. He doesn't seem like that kind of guy.

[chiasaur11]

Sephiroth and time travelers tend to get the worst arguments.

I mean, most of the time Trek arguments, for example, are perfectly reasonable (by vs. thread standards.) but if someone mentions that in even one episode Kirk traveled back to the fourties via a one in a million wormhole based accident, then suddenly good old Jim is the Doctor, but able to punch paradoxes to death. Error of stoicism, I suppose. (Thinking one can do at all times what we can do some of the time, for those unaware of the term.)

Sephiroth arguments have been better documented errors, with fewer defenses.

Basically, as everyone else has said, just because he pulled a Norman Osbourne, some fans of 7 tend to assume he's the God Emperor of Mankind, Goku, Superman, and Pun-Pun rolled into one, but without the limits on power.

Eesh.

[Agrippa]

Sephiroth arguments have been better documented errors, with fewer defenses.

Basically, as everyone else has said, just because he pulled a Norman Osbourne, some fans of 7 tend to assume he's the God Emperor of Mankind, Goku, Superman, and Pun-Pun rolled into one, but without the limits on power.

Eesh.

Not at Dicefreak's at least. There Sephiroth is stated as a 20 hit die custom build. Even their Spider-Man stats have a higher hit die than that.