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    Default (3.5) (ToB) (PrC) True Master of Nine (PEACH)

    I was kinda disappointed by the ToB Master of Nine, since, mechanically, it is no such thing("Master of Six" would be more accurate). Fluff is exactly the same as for the ToB Master of Nine but with a stronger emphasis on multi-classing. Also, feel free to link me to it if someone else has tried something similar, either here(EDIT: Although a Google search for "True Master of Nine" came up empty) or on another board.

    True Master of Nine

    Prerequisites:
    -One maneuver from at least 9 different martial disciplines.
    -One stance each from 6 different martial disciplines.
    -4 ranks in the associated skill for at least 3 disciplines you had at least one maneuver or stance from before taking your first level of this class. (Note that as in the case of Stone Dragon and Iron Heart, which both have Balance as their associated skill, one set of ranks can meet this requirement for more than one discipline).
    - Same as above for another 3 disciplines but only 3 ranks are required.
    - Same as above for yet another 3 disciplines but only 2 ranks are required.
    ((Since these are a bit weird, I will give the recommended entry here: Sword-Sage 2/Crusader 2/Warblade 1 with Martial Stance Feat))

    HP: d10

    Skills: 4+int

    Class Skills: Climb, Concentration, Craft, Knowledge (History,Local, Religion), Martial Lore, Swim, plus the associated skill for each discipline you had at least one maneuver or stance from before taking taking the first level of this class.

    Martial Paths: All that you had at least one maneuver or stance from before taking your first level of this class.

    {table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Maneuvers Known|Maneuvers Readied|Stances |Special Abilities
    1| +1|+2|+2|+2|2| |1|Path of Balance, Jealous Path
    2| +2|+3|+3|+3|2| | |Steps Along the Way
    3| +3|+3|+3|+3|2| | |
    4| +4|+4|+4|+4|2|1|1|
    5| +5|+4|+4|+4|2| | |No Contradiction (1/day)
    6| +6|+5|+5|+5|2|1| |
    7| +7|+5|+5|+5|2| |1| No Contradiction (2/day)
    8| +8|+6|+6|+6|2|1| |
    9| +9|+6|+6|+6|2| | |No Contradiction (3/day)
    10|+10|+7|+7|+7|2|1|1|Perfect Form, Master of All[/table]

    Maneuvers: At every level of this class you gain two maneuvers known (but see restriction in "Path of Balance" below). At 4th level and every even numbered level after that (including epic levels of this class), you may ready another maneuver. At every even level of this class, you may choose to learn a new maneuver in place of one you already know. In effect, you lose the old maneuver in exchange for the new one. You can choose a new maneuver of any level you like as as long as you observe your restriction on the the highest level maneuvers you know; you need not replace the maneuver with a maneuver of the same level. The new maneuver must be from the same discipline as the one it replaces, or from a discipline that (prior to applying this operation) you had less maneuvers from than the discipline the maneuver you are losing belongs to.


    Path of Balance(Ex): The dedication to walking all paths comes at a slight cost to progress along any one path. When selecting a new maneuver (including via a feat, or from another class after you complete this one), you must always take it from a discipline you have access to, but know the least number of maneuvers in (of those you know any maneuvers or stances from at all) OR from a discipline that you know no maneuvers from but have somehow gained access to (via paying the 1,000 XPs, or if gaining the maneuver via the Martial Study feat, or whatever). Do not count stances as maneuvers for purposes of the preceding balancing. A similar rule applies for stances, but balancing the count of stances rather than maneuvers.

    Jealous Path(Ex): The dedication required to follow the path of the True Master of Nine requires unshakable devotion. You many not take any further levels of any other martial initiating class while you have any levels of this class until you complete it at 10th level.

    Steps Along the Way(Ex): Because know that the ways of every martial initiating class are merely stages of your larger journey are able to you break down the barriers between them. Beginning at second level you combine all your maneuvers known and maneuvers readied into a single pool (even those from in this and other classes you gain after receiving this class ability and instance of Martial Study taken later). All your maneuvers readied are considered also considered "granted", regardless of how you learned them originally. You may use any recovery method for any class you had levels of before taking your first level of True Master of Nine except the ones that work like the Crusader's recovery method. In that last case it means that in the unlikely case you have no maneuvers readied at any given point recover all you maneuvers at the beginning of your next turn as a free action. Note that you can not choose to prepare fewer maneuvers than your maximum.

    No Contradiction(Ex): From 4th level on once per day you when you use the full attack action you may treat two of the attacks as strikes that normally have standard action initiation actions. The strikes must be from different disciplines, you must have the strikes readied, and this usage expends them normally. At least one of the maneuvers must be of a level at least one less than the highest level maneuver your initiator level allows you to learn. If you use a strike that requires an alternate check in place of an attack roll on your part (such as replace an attack roll with a concentration check or some such) your check result is reduced by the same amount that that interative attack would be (so -5 if you use the second attack in a normal full attack to deliver the strike). If the strike involves a save on your opponents part(s) the DC is reduced by half this amount (so -3 for the second attack in a normal full attack, -5 for the third, or -8 for the fourth).
    At 7th level you may use this ability twice per day, but no more than once per round.
    At 9th level you may use this ability three times per day, but still no more than once per round.

    Perfect Form(Ex): At 10th level, due to the broad based insight you have,the save DC (if any) of any maneuver you initiate increases by 1.

    Master of All(Su): Also at 10th level you gain transcendent insight into martial disciplines. From this point forward, you may select your maneuvers and stances gained from any martial discipline that exists in your campaign multiverse, regardless of if you have ever even heard of it. This includes the 2 maneuvers and 1 stance gained at this level, as well as any you gain in the future from other martial initiating classes and feats(Martial Study, Martial Stance, plus any setting specific ones). If you have less than 2 maneuvers(including stances in this case) in a given discipline, you instead count as knowing 2 maneuvers from that discipline for purposes of meeting the prerequisites of maneuvers and stances. Note that since it is LEARNING them that is the supernatural ability, you are unlikely to have problems with Anti-magic Fields and the like.
    In addition, you may select any 1 martial initiating base class to add as a favored class for purposes of avoiding multiclassing penalties.


    NOTES:
    Spoiler
    Show

    EDIT History
    Dec. 21 3:13 PM Eastern: Added "or stances" to the class skills area.

    Oct. 18 9:43 PM Eastern: Corrected a spelling mistake, and put in Knowledge(Local), just for the sake of arguement.
    Oct. 04 4:27 PM Eastern: Since it is now possible to get several of 9th level maneuvers by character level 20 if you plan carefully, I slightly nerfed "No Contradictions" by requiring that at least one of the maneuvers be at least one of level back.
    Aug. 14, 4:30 PM Eastern: Modified Path of Balance to account for people purchasing additional disciplines beyond 9 or whatever.-
    Aug. 14, 11:41 PM Eastern: Changed it to full IL progression.
    Aug. 15, 2:09 AM Eastern: Removed the following clause:"The maneuver lost must be from the lowest level that you know any maneuvers of."
    2:16 AM : Added Climb, Craft, and Swim to the class skills list.
    12:47 PM : Finally figured out how to execute Thrice Dead Cat's suggestions on the skill-rank requirements, including making it so you aren't punished if you dump 5,000 XPs by 5th level so that you end up with 14 disciplines instead of 9.
    4:34 PM :Started trying to figure out how in the world to actually build a sample character...
    9:49 PM :Added extra favored class to capstone so you aren't hamstring trying to triple class if you don't happen to be human to avoid XP penalties after leaving the class.
    Notes:
    Prepared maneuvers progression.
    Crusader: 1/10
    Sword-Sage: 2/5
    Warblade: 1/5

    The "Sudden Quicken" effect of "No Contradictions" is balanced out by several factors:
    -It requires a full attack.
    -With their slightly nerfed maximum maneuver level this allows them to get the large number of maneuvers they can ready "out the door" a little faster, thus making up for the lower levels of the maneuvers.
    -Unless Hasteed or duel-wielding you aren't going to get your full BAB with both strikes. Now granted, if it is something with a save DC... actually, let me fix that. There, now it affects the save DC so you can't just you Wyrms flame with the last attack of your full attack that wouldn't have been likely to hit anyway without any sort of penalty.
    -Once per round limit says: "No Time Stands Still cheese for you Mr Epic initiator!"... Well, OK, so doing two 8th level strikes plus 6 other attacks, without even bringing Haste into the picture is pretty good, but still...

    Random Idea: Require all 6 maneuvers used in "No Contradiction" in a day to be from separate disciplines.

    Entry:
    Sword-Sage 1
    Feat: Martial Stance (no such thing as a second level stance, so we might as well get this out of the way)
    Maneuvers: (Desert Wind), (Setting Sun), (Shadow Hand), (Diamond Mind[Probably]),(2 more. from Desert Wind Setting Sun, and Shadow Hand probably)
    Stance: (2 of Desert Wind, Setting Sun, or Shadow Hand)
    4 ranks each in Balance, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Sense Motive, Tumble

    Sword-Sage 2 (to make it easier to get second level maneuvers from disciplines specific to other classes)
    Stance: (Last of the trio)
    Maneuvers:

    Crusader 1(with the hope of grabbing 3 third level maneuvers with the Warblade level, although taking TWO levels of Warblade before starting on this would make the most of the lovely 5 maneuvers granted at first level, plus moving the Martial Stance feat to where you can get a 3rd level Stance with it.)
    Feat: Power Attack?
    Maneuvers:(2xDevoted Spirit), (1 Stone Dragon), (2xWhite Raven)
    Stance: Devoted Spirit

    Crusader 2
    Stance: Stone Dragon or White Raven

    Warblade 1
    Stance: Absolute Steel Stance
    Maneuvers: (Iron Heart), (Tiger Claw), (White Raven)

    True Master of Nine 1
    Feat: Adaptive Style (we are going to end up with a BUNCH of maneuvers, even compared to the number we can ready, so we will probably want this...).
    Maneuvers: As dictated by Path of Balance, Probably Stone Dragon and one other.
    Last edited by DracoDei; 2009-12-21 at 03:14 PM.
    Running: Ruceeglaelsktinag IC OOC Active Map
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    My Homebrew is meant to be used, but, if you do, PLEASE tell me how it goes.
    Back from GenCon, but need to send some tricky e-mails. DragonCon Aug 29th to Sept 1st, has prep and recovery.

  2. - Top - End - #2
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    Thrice Dead Cat's Avatar

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    Default Re: (3.5) (ToB) (PrC) True Master of Nine (PEACH)

    Here's the link to the build that gets all 9th level maneuvers: http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archi...x.php/t-897344

    I'll edit in my actual review here shortly.

    EDIT:

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post
    True Master of Nine

    Prerequisites:
    -One maneuver from at least 9 different martial disciplines.
    -One stance each from 6 different martial disciplines.
    -4? ranks in the associated skill for each discipline you had at least one maneuver or stance from before taking your first level of this class.
    ((Since these are a bit weird, I will give the recommended entry here: Sword-Sage 2/Crusader 2/Warblade 1 with Martial Stance Feat))
    Obviously, you meant for these prerequisites to be a little rougher to meet. I would set the skills so that you need 4 ranks in 3 disciplines, 3 in another 3, and then 2 in the last 3. Also, as written, you're forced to have more skill ranks if you do happen to know >9 disciplines. Although, getting rid of the feat requirements is a bit of a boon.

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post
    HP: d10

    Skills: 4+int

    Class Skills: Knowledge (Religion, History), Martial Lore, plus the associated skill for each discipline you had at least one maneuver from before taking taking the first level of this class.

    Martial Paths: All that you had at least one maneuver or stance from before taking your first level of this class.
    Martial Paths are fine. HD might be too much with everything else, not too sure. Skills seem a little light: why not just copypasta the original Master of Nine's and call it a day? Leaving the skills at 4+int is probably in order, either way.

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post
    {table=head]Level|BAB|Ref|Fort|Will|Maneuvers Known|Maneuvers Readied|Stances |Special Abilities
    1| +1|+2|+2|+2|2| |1|Path of Balance, Jealous Path
    2| +2|+3|+3|+3|2| | |Steps Along the Way
    3| +3|+3|+3|+3|2| | |
    4| +4|+4|+4|+4|2|1|1|
    5| +5|+4|+4|+4|2| | |No Contradiction (1/day)
    6| +6|+5|+5|+5|2|1| |
    7| +7|+5|+5|+5|2| |1| No Contradiction (2/day)
    8| +8|+6|+6|+6|2|1| |
    9| +9|+6|+6|+6|2| | |No Contradiction (3/day)
    10|+10|+7|+7|+7|2|1|1|Perfect Form, Master of All[/table]
    I'm sorry, but I just have to go "wut" at the all good saves coupled with good BAB. Either drop one of the saves to poor or the BAB to average here. Right now, it feels like a silly pile of numbers, even IF BAB is cheap.

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post
    Maneuvers: At every level of this class you gain two maneuvers known (but see restriction in "Path of Balance" below). At 4th level and every even numbered level after that (including epic levels of this class), you may ready another maneuver. At every even level of this class, you may choose to learn a new maneuver in place of one you already know. In effect, you lose the old maneuver in exchange for the new one. The maneuver lost must be from the lowest level that you know any maneuvers of. You can choose a new maneuver of any level you like as as long as you observe your restriction on the the highest level maneuvers you know; you need not replace the maneuver with a maneuver of the same level. The new maneuver must be from the same discipline as the one it replaces, or from a discipline that (prior to applying this operation) you had less maneuvers from than the discipline the maneuver you are loosing belongs to.
    Okay, here's where I'm seeing some issues. Two maneuvers known at each level is a little silly, especially with it being ten levels long. Also, coupled with the fact that you are considered a non-initiator for levels of maneuvers and stances puts a hamper in the supposed added versatility here.

    The "Balance" mechanic might also prove to be more bane than boon, and being forced to loose the lowest level maneuver when you retrain at level up is another kick to the pants. Some of us like using Concentration for Reflex saves, after all.


    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post
    Path of Balance(Ex): The dedication to walking all paths comes at a slight cost to progress along any one path. Levels of True Master of Nine give full initiator level for determining the IL dependent effects of maneuvers and stances, but as if it were a non-initiating class for purposes of determining the highest level maneuvers and stances you may select. Also, when selecting a new maneuver (including via a feat, or from another class after you complete this one), you must always take it from the discipline you have access to, but know the least number of maneuvers in (of those you know any maneuvers or stances from at all) OR from a discipline that you know no maneuvers from but have somehow gained access to (via paying the 1,000 XPs, or if gaining the maneuver via the Martial Study feat, or whatever). Do not count stances as maneuvers for purposes of the preceding balancing. A similar rule applies for stances, but balancing the count of stances rather than maneuvers.
    This hurts, no way around it. First thing, right out the gate, would be nixing the silly 1/2 IL progression. I seem to be remembering a rule that a prestige class, no matter what it allows you to choose for new maneuvers, still counts as full IL for all disciplines. I might be mistaken, however.

    Also being bound by the bold rule even after finishing the class just seems cruel. I understand it's to force the character to truly "master" each discipline, but, in the end, you come out without mastering any of them. I personally wouldn't consider someone a master if they don't reach even one 9th level maneuvers pre-epic.

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post
    Jealous Path(Ex): The dedication required to follow the path of the True Master of Nine requires unshakable devotion. You many not take any further levels of any other martial initiating class while you have any levels of this class until you complete it at 10th level.
    I see this at odds with idea of multiclassing for added benefit. If you're going to include this as a class feature, at least have it offer a will save to take another class level. Probably something to the effect of 15+(half MoN levels).

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post
    Steps Along the Way(Ex): Because know that the ways of every martial initiating class are merely stages of your larger journey you break down the barriers between them. Beginning at second level you combine all your maneuvers known and maneuvers readied into a single pool. All your maneuvers readied are considered also considered "granted", regardless of how you learned them originally. You may use any recovery method for any class you had levels of before taking your first level of True Master of Nine except the ones that work like the Crusader's recovery method. In that last case it means that in the unlikely case you have no maneuvers readied at any given point recover all you maneuvers at the beginning of your next turn as a free action. Note that you can not choose to prepare fewer maneuvers than your maximum.
    This probably needs a little rewording, but, overall, isn't bad. Mostly helps with the book keeping of what you've got access to and prevents confusion when you've got different maneuvers from the same discipline on different recovery tacks.

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post
    No Contradiction(Ex): From 4th level on once per day you when you use the full attack action you may treat two of the attacks as strikes that normally have standard action initiation actions. You must have the strikes readied, and this usage expends them normally. If you use a strike that requires an alternate check in place of an attack roll on your part (such as replace an attack roll with a concentration check or some such) your check result is reduced by the same amount that that interative attack would be (so -5 if you use the second attack in a normal full attack to deliver the strike). If the strike involves a save on your opponents part(s) the DC is reduced by half this amount (so -3 for the second attack in a normal full attack, -5 for the third, or -8 for the fourth).
    At 7th level you may use this ability twice per day, but no more than once per round.
    At 9th level you may use this ability three times per day, but still no more than once per round.
    This is definitely a strong ability, but I'm not sure if it may prove to be too much. I'll let someone more apt weigh in, but my initial thought is to just allow one strike to be made during a full attack instead, maybe a second if you're using a full attack strike, but I would not give that right at 4th level.

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post
    Perfect Form(Ex): At 10th level, due to the broad based insight you have,the save DC (if any) of any maneuver you initiate increases by 1.
    Considering the limitations you have on levels of maneuvers available to you, this is a poor band-aide. If you're going to focus on something with saves, the clear answer is to boost the relevant stat and the level of whatever it is you what them to save against. Also, pushing this back from 3rd level (actually, about half way through the class) to 10th also bugs me.

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post
    Master of All(Su): Also at 10th level you gain transcendent insight into martial disciplines. From this point forward, you may select your maneuvers and stances gained from any martial discipline that exists in your campaign multiverse, regardless of if you have ever even heard of it. This includes the 2 maneuvers and 1 stance gained at the this level, as well as any you gain in the future from other martial initiating classes and feats(Martial Study, Martial Stance, plus any setting specific ones). If you have less than 2 maneuvers(including stances in this case) in a given discipline, you instead count as knowing 2 maneuvers from that discipline for purposes of meeting the prerequisites of maneuvers and stances. Note that since it is LEARNING them that is the supernatural abilities, you are unlikely to have problems with Anti-magic Fields and the like.
    Why not just label this ability as (Ex) instead of including the comment about it not going away in an AMF? Also, this feels much like the rogue's capstone here. I would probably throw dual stance or maybe even triple stance here instead.

    Also, why no love for the rest of original Master of Nine's class abilities?
    Last edited by Thrice Dead Cat; 2009-08-14 at 09:35 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #3
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    Default Re: (3.5) (ToB) (PrC) True Master of Nine (PEACH)

    Thank you very much for your review... 55 views and no responses made me think I am doing something horribly wrong.


    Quote Originally Posted by Thrice Dead Cat View Post
    Obviously, you meant for these prerequisites to be a little rougher to meet. I would set the skills so that you need 4 ranks in 3 disciplines, 3 in another 3, and then 2 in the last 3.
    Going to have to think what to do about the skill requirements for class entry. As you can see I wasn't sure where to set them. You idea would look good at first glance, except that both Iron Heart and Stone Dragon are based off Balance, and who knows what skills homebrew disciplines might be based off of.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thrice Dead Cat View Post
    Also, as written, you're forced to have more skill ranks if you do happen to know >9 disciplines. Although, getting rid of the feat requirements is a bit of a boon.
    This can actually be entered at a much lower level than the original Master of Nine, but yeah, "rougher" does apply. Although that isn't exactly what I was going for. I was going for "Must have at least dabbled in ALL NINE."
    Quote Originally Posted by Thrice Dead Cat View Post
    Martial Paths are fine. HD might be too much with everything else, not too sure.
    HD is the average die size for the basic three martial initiating classes (Swordsage d8, Crusader d10, Warblade d12).
    Quote Originally Posted by Thrice Dead Cat View Post
    Skills seem a little light: why not just copypasta the original Master of Nine's and call it a day?
    Class skills are set up that way for ease of use with homebrew disciplines that have other skills associated with them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thrice Dead Cat View Post
    Leaving the skills at 4+int is probably in order, either way.
    Ok
    Quote Originally Posted by Thrice Dead Cat View Post
    I'm sorry, but I just have to go "wut" at the all good saves coupled with good BAB. Either drop one of the saves to poor or the BAB to average here. Right now, it feels like a silly pile of numbers, even IF BAB is cheap.
    Two out of three of the basic initiating classes have Full BAB, so this gets it too. "All good saves" was supposed to go along with the balanced outlook and I am not about to give them all BAD ones. Also, with the crazy multiclassing you probably did to get into the class in the first place you are down a bit in Will and Reflex, and up a bit in Fort (because of the stupid way RAW stacks save bonuses). So... I might drop Reflex to Poor, or maybe Reflex and Will to the rarely used "Average".
    Quote Originally Posted by Thrice Dead Cat View Post
    Okay, here's where I'm seeing some issues. Two maneuvers known at each level is a little silly, especially with it being ten levels long. Also, coupled with the fact that you are considered a non-initiator for levels of maneuvers and stances puts a hamper in the supposed added versatility here.
    Breadth over depth... and the two maneuvers per level is unlikely to change... the original Master of Nine alternated 2 and 1, and never gave you any REAL reason to take more than one maneuver from more than 6 disciplines. The 2 per level thing helps counter balance the "Path of Balance" restriction... and speaking of which...
    Quote Originally Posted by Thrice Dead Cat View Post
    The "Balance" mechanic might also prove to be more bane than boon,
    Path of Balance is SUPPOSED to be a drawback.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thrice Dead Cat View Post
    and being forced to loose the lowest level maneuver when you retrain at level up is another kick to the pants. Some of us like using Concentration for Reflex saves, after all.
    Yeah... not sure what to do about that... I want to keep the feel of STRONG balance between the 9 (or more) disciplines.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thrice Dead Cat View Post
    This hurts, no way around it. First thing, right out the gate, would be nixing the silly 1/2 IL progression.
    Full IL sounds fine, will remove that restriction after I get done typing this. If it proves too much then maybe 3/4 or some such? The idea was to counter balance the huge number of maneuvers given and the all-good saves.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thrice Dead Cat View Post
    I seem to be remembering a rule that a prestige class, no matter what it allows you to choose for new maneuvers, still counts as full IL for all disciplines. I might be mistaken, however.
    Well, this class would certainly apply EQUALLY to all disciplines, but I MIGHT cut it back to 3/4 or some such if I don't just take it to full and leave it there.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thrice Dead Cat View Post
    Also being bound by the bold rule even after finishing the class just seems cruel. I understand it's to force the character to truly "master" each discipline, but, in the end, you come out without mastering any of them. I personally wouldn't consider someone a master if they don't reach even one 9th level maneuvers pre-epic.
    Well, getting the disciplines to work together well enough that you can do two 8th level strikes in one round 3 times a day sounds pretty cool to ME...
    Quote Originally Posted by Thrice Dead Cat View Post
    I see this at odds with idea of multiclassing for added benefit. If you're going to include this as a class feature, at least have it offer a will save to take another class level. Probably something to the effect of 15+(half MoN levels).
    Note that it goes away once you finish the class. You can take any class you like as your 16th and higher levels, and are probably going to take a martial initiating class (or more than one) if you have any sense what-so-ever. In any case, this was mostly just to keep people from dipping it (especially a two level dip for the class ability at that level) and avoiding losing too much IL... now that it is full IL I might drop that, but I am going to leave it in for the moment, mostly just in case I cut it back to 3/4 IL.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thrice Dead Cat View Post
    This probably needs a little rewording, but, overall, isn't bad. Mostly helps with the book keeping of what you've got access to and prevents confusion when you've got different maneuvers from the same discipline on different recovery tacks.
    It does really help with that, but not having to put up with the "granted" mechanic is a pretty powerful effect in itself for unleashing the power of Devoted Spirit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thrice Dead Cat View Post
    This is definitely a strong ability, but I'm not sure if it may prove to be too much. I'll let someone more apt weigh in, but my initial thought is to just allow one strike to be made during a full attack instead, maybe a second if you're using a full attack strike, but I would not give that right at 4th level.
    It is probably the thing that makes up for only getting 1 ninth level maneuver (Stone Dragon 9th has no pre-requisites, and while the Errata for ToB is borked, it doesn't seem to include anything on the subject). Two 8th level maneuvers in one round, even if you have to get in a full attack to use it, and the second one loses some hitting power is probably equivalent to a 9th level maneuver.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thrice Dead Cat View Post
    Considering the limitations you have on levels of maneuvers available to you, this is a poor band-aide. If you're going to focus on something with saves, the clear answer is to boost the relevant stat and the level of whatever it is you what them to save against. Also, pushing this back from 3rd level (actually, about half way through the class) to 10th also bugs me.
    It is indeed a band-aid, but once I change the class to full IL then it is going to be a lot better of one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thrice Dead Cat View Post
    Why not just label this ability as (Ex) instead of including the comment about it not going away in an AMF?
    That is mostly to explain why you don't have to find someone to train you when you randomly decide to take up the study of the rare (and nearly completely useless) "Twirling Squirrel" discipline or whatever. Also, it DOES go away in an AMF, but if you are silly enough to try to train in a dojo that has a giant AMF field centered on it, then that is YOUR problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thrice Dead Cat View Post
    Also, this feels much like the rogue's capstone here. I would probably throw dual stance or maybe even triple stance here instead.

    Also, why no love for the rest of original Master of Nine's class abilities?
    In all honesty? Because they didn't seem to put enough emphasis on diversity and balance when I glanced at them (when my version was 90% done). I might slot in the dual stance thing somewhere, perhaps at the cost of pushing the "No Contradiction" progression a bit later.
    Last edited by DracoDei; 2009-08-16 at 03:41 PM.
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    Default Re: (3.5) (ToB) (PrC) True Master of Nine (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post
    Thank you very much for your review... 55 views and no responses made me think I am doing something horribly wrong.
    No problem. Hopefully this will spur some more activity.

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post
    Going to have to think what to do about the skill requirements for class entry. As you can see I wasn't sure where to set them. You idea would look good at first glance, except that both Iron Heart and Stone Dragon are based off Balance, and who knows what skills homebrew disciplines might be based off of.
    It might need some more work, probably decreasing it further, but I'm not entirely sure. It might be too much to drop the total skill point amount down to that of the original MoN.

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post
    This can actually be entered at a much lower level than the original Master of Nine, buy yeah "rougher" does apply. Although that isn't exactly what I was going for. I was going for "Must have at least dabbled in ALL NINE."
    Dabbling in all of them is fine, and I understand the design behind it. It may end out about the same, if not better.

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post
    HD is the average die size for the basic three martial initiating classes (Swordsage d8, Crusader d10, Warblade d12).
    Yeah, I noticed that after I posted, but with so many maneuvers known, I could see the decease down to d8s. However, it's only 1 HP difference, so it's far from the biggest of issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post
    Class skills are set up that way for ease of use with homebrew disciplines that have other skills associated with them.
    Well, how about taking the list from the original MoN and then include that little blurb about adding other homebrewed discipline's skills, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post
    Two out of three of the basic initiating classes have Full BAB, so this gets it too. "All good saves" was supposed to go along with the balanced outlook and I am not about to give them all BAD ones. Also, with the crazy multiclassing you probably did to get into the class in the first place you are down a bit in Will and Reflex, and up a bit in Fort (because of the stupid way RAW stacks save bonuses). So... I might drop Reflex to Poor, or maybe Reflex and Will to the rarely used "Average".
    Right, right. I understand the logic. I might be overvaluing the amount of maneuvers known. If you do go for the "Average" idea, it might be better to just use the "Poor" progression, but include bonuses a la Swashbuckler's Grace.

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post
    Breadth over depth... and the two maneuvers per level is unlikely to change... the original Master of Nine alternated 2 and 1, and never gave you any REAL reason to take more than one maneuver from more than 6 disciplines.
    I'm waffling on that idea, but it's probably not game breaking to continue the 2/level progression instead of alternating.

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post
    Path of Balance is SUPPOSED to be a drawback.
    See, that's where I have to disagree. Class abilities, especially ones from prestige classes, shouldn't hinder the character. That's my take on it, at least.

    Although, and I forgot to include this in the original review, how about lessening the restriction on Path of Balance? Instead of having to be equal at all times, just make sure that the difference between maneuver's known of the different disciplines be something like 2 or 3?

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post
    Yeah... not sure what to do about that... I want to keep the feel of STRONG balance between the 9 (or more) disciplines.
    Honestly, just having to Path of Balance (especially as is) would more than make up for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post
    Full IL sounds fine, will remove that restriction after I get done typing this. If it proves too much then maybe 3/4 or some such? The idea was to counter balance the huge number of maneuvers given and the all-good saves.
    Full IL will probably be good. I would rather decrease either the saves or the BAB to balance that point instead.

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post
    Well, getting the disciplines to work together well enough that you can do two 8th level strikes in one round 3 times a day sounds pretty cool to ME...
    I was thinking about that in combination of a full attack. Also, it might work out better on a per encounter basis instead. Maybe instead let the player roll two strikes with the same standard action or a full-attack action, but not actually give the iteratives? Maybe even eventually allowing for three strikes?

    At any rate, I did like the idea behind it, it's just the specifics of the crunch I'm questioning.

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post
    Note that it goes away once you finish the class. You can take any class you like as your 16th and higher levels, and are probably going to take a martial initiating class (or more than one) if you have any sense what-so-ever. In any case, this was mostly just to keep people from dipping it (especially a two level dip for the class ability at that level) and avoiding losing too much IL... now that it is full IL I might drop that, but I am going to leave it in for the moment, mostly just in case I cut it back to 3/4 IL.
    I'm aware of that, but again, this goes back to my stance on class abilities not hindering the character. If it's kept, I think it would help to have some sort of level check or Will save instead would get much the same vibe, but at least open the possibility for dipping.

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post
    It does really help with that, but not having to put up with the "granted" mechanic is a pretty powerful effect in itself for unleashing the power of Devoted Spirit.
    See, I personally enjoy the "granted" mechanic. It probably would fall apart with this many maneuvers, but I don't find it inherently bad. It might not be a bad idea to just let the character choose what style of recovery he wants and let him change it with five minutes of kung-fu practice.

    I was more wondering about the wording of it, to be fair. It seemed a little unintuitive at first.

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post
    It is indeed a band-aid, but once I change the class to full IL then it is going to be a lot better of one.
    Right, right. It'll be nice little ability once it's at full IL, but it still doesn't feel like a capstone.

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post
    That is mostly to explain why you don't have to find someone to train you when you randomly decide to take up the study of the rare (and nearly completely useless) "Twirling Squirrel" discipline or whatever. Also, it DOES go away in an AMF, but if you are silly enough to try to train in a dojo that has a giant AMF field centered on it, then that is YOUR problem.
    That's fair, and I understand the reasoning behind it, what with the possibility of truly strict GMs demanding that sort of thing. It's a minor issue, and it would probably require some little blurb either way.

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post
    In all honesty? Because they didn't seem to put enough emphasis on diversity and balance when I glanced at them (when my version was 90% done). I might slot in the dual stance thing somewhere, perhaps at the cost of pushing the "No Contradiction" progression a bit later.
    Multistance can be fixed by simply requiring the character have stances from different disciplines up. The other abilities would probably work to that end with similar additions on having to use multiple disciplines together for them to work.

    All in all, I do enjoy the design of the class, and minor details like these always need some hammering out.

  5. - Top - End - #5
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    Default Re: (3.5) (ToB) (PrC) True Master of Nine (PEACH)

    Yeah, I already changed it to Full IL, and I will probably drop the thing about having to replace your lowest level maneuvers.

    Well, how about taking the list from the original MoN and then include that little blurb about adding other homebrewed discipline's skills, too.
    Yeah, I can do that, but I think I will drop all the associated discipline skills(except maybe Concentration, since I see this class as pretty focused) from it so that if you take the 9 disciplines in the book you end up in about the same place, but if you take some weird homebrew ones you are going to get different results... except "Knowledge(Local)" which makes no almost no sense to me* (and I hear almost nobody ever takes)... these guys are training on mountain-tops and secret grottos where all the plant-life is exquisitely beautiful and mostly deadly poisonous and other such mystical and cool places... they don't hang out in taverns... Knowledge(Religion) fits in so much better... I mean Devoted Defender without that CAN work from a fluff perspective, but usually not...
    *EDIT: In browsing my ToB book, I happened across the new use they added for "Knowledge(Local)" for identifying to answer questions about martial adepts and traditions... I will think about giving it back, or maybe just putting in an extremely minor ability that they can sub "Knowledge(History)" for it for that specific purpose.
    See, that's where I have to disagree. Class abilities, especially ones from prestige classes, shouldn't hinder the character. That's my take on it, at least.
    Yes, point taken(I may or may not go with it, but the point is noted), the only reason I phrased my response to you the way I did was that I thought that you thought that there was some sort of beneficial effect to the way I had written it.
    I will note that I have seen a VERY nice PrC (Rose Gunner) in one of the contests that gave you a new casting mechanic and disallowed the old. The new one had some good power, but also restricted you to 6 spells prepared at a time I think and dealt you hp damage every time you cast a spell. Roll this in with the 2/level maneuvers and the pooled recovery mechanic and you get something that may be similar.

    Although, and I forgot to include this in the original review, how about lessening the restriction on Path of Balance? Instead of having to be equal at all times, just make sure that the difference between maneuver's known of the different disciplines be something like 2 or 3?
    Nitpick ONLY so nobody reading this later gets confused: You COULD start this class with 6 or so Stone Dragon Maneuvers and one of everything else if you REALLY wanted to... you just would never be taking a new maneuver of that discipline again, only replacing old ones.

    As for the 2 difference being OK... interesting idea, but that is actually a big difference in this case...
    Honestly, just having to Path of Balance (especially as is) would more than make up for that.
    Yeah, probably true...

    See, I personally enjoy the "granted" mechanic. It probably would fall apart with this many maneuvers, but I don't find it inherently bad.
    Neither do I, in fact I quite like the "You gotta have faith" element that the random chance involves provides... it is just that as part of the flavor of THIS prestige class, removing that limitation is a nice little touch... in fact, I would say that without it being there TO remove, my PrC would have lost a tiny bit of its flavor.

    Multistance can be fixed by simply requiring the character have stances from different disciplines up. The other abilities would probably work to that end with similar additions on having to use multiple disciplines together for them to work.
    Yeah, that works for the dual stance thing(if I decide I want to squeeze it in)... not sure it could be as good for "Counter Stance" although specify that the stance being replaced can't match any stance you are currently in might help SOME... as for the way they have their capstone worded it would be a total gimme for this class to get AT LEAST +9 to all their strikes (since this class can prepare 16 maneuvers by class level 10th with the entry build I described).

    All in all, I do enjoy the design of the class, and minor details like these always need some hammering out.
    Thank you very much.
    Last edited by DracoDei; 2009-08-15 at 09:12 PM.
    Running: Ruceeglaelsktinag IC OOC Active Map
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    My Homebrew is meant to be used, but, if you do, PLEASE tell me how it goes.
    Back from GenCon, but need to send some tricky e-mails. DragonCon Aug 29th to Sept 1st, has prep and recovery.

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    Default Re: (3.5) (ToB) (PrC) True Master of Nine (PEACH)

    I just realized... Samurai Jack could very plausibly have levels in this class...
    Sword-Sage 6/Crusader 2/Warblade 1/Barbarian 1/TMo9 10
    Maybe?
    Or maybe I am just full of myself...
    Running: Ruceeglaelsktinag IC OOC Active Map
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    Back from GenCon, but need to send some tricky e-mails. DragonCon Aug 29th to Sept 1st, has prep and recovery.

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    Default Re: (3.5) (ToB) (PrC) True Master of Nine (PEACH)

    Probably. He's certainly a well-rounded martial adept, having trained under everyone imaginable. It would certainly make sense.

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