Why is warlock worse than sorceror?

[Ferrous]

I'm not that familiar with D&D rules, so someone kindly explain to me (or at least point me in the right direction) why being called a warlock would possibly be worse than a sorceror (I've understood from reading OOTS that sorcerors are considered morons because they don't have to learn their spells, whereas wizards do).

[RMS Oceanic]

Well, assuming the same sort of Warlock as seen in Complete Arcane:

1. Warlocks cast spell-like abilities which emulate other spells. At least Sorcerers cast spells as Wizards understand them.
2. The amount of abilities a Warlock gets is less even than the number of Sorcerer spells.
3. Warlocks are given their powers from an outside source, rather than coming from within or studying to achieve them.

[Bibliomancer]

Warlocks derive their power from infernal sources. It isn't even theirs, thus making them arcane-versions of evil clerics without any useful class features. This also hits uncomfortably close to home for V, since she recently made a similar bargain, and the main warlock ability is basically what an evoker does, except with a single target and no use-limit.

Edit: Ninjaed!

[Mando Knight]

This also hits uncomfortably close to home for V, since she recently made a similar bargain, and the main warlock ability is basically what an evoker does, except with a single target and no use-limit.

Well, actually, IIRC a warlock can shape his eldritch blast to hit multiple characters if he learns the correct invocations... and do it all day. The advantage an evoker has is the ability to deal more damage per attack, though he can do so fewer times per day.

[Bibliomancer]

Well, actually, IIRC a warlock can shape his eldritch blast to hit multiple characters if he learns the correct invocations... and do it all day. The advantage an evoker has is the ability to deal more damage per attack, though he can do so fewer times per day.

True, but it doesn't become an actual area burst until the high levels, so for wiping out mooks and consistent, flexible long-range bombardment, evokers have an advantage.

[Morty]

If wizards consider sorcerer to be upstarts because they have an innate gift for magic, then I suppose warlocks who are not only also born with power but don't use actual spells would be treated like dirt. Can't say they don't have a point, really.

[Bibliomancer]

If wizards consider sorcerer to be upstarts because they have an innate gift for magic, then I suppose warlocks who are not only also born with power but don't use actual spells would be treated like dirt. Can't say they don't have a point, really.

Actually, some warlocks aren't born with power, they bargain for it with infernal powers (hence the alignment restrictions). Their descendants receive this power as well, however.

[SPoD]

A wizard being called a sorcerer is sort of like having a PhD and someone telling you that you only managed to graduate because you have natural talent.

A wizard being called a warlock is like having a PhD and being told you only managed to graduate because you gave the dean a quickie in the alley behind the movie theater.

[Blue Ghost]

A wizard being called a sorcerer is sort of like having a PhD and someone telling you that you only managed to graduate because you have natural talent.

A wizard being called a warlock is like having a PhD and being told you only managed to graduate because you gave the dean a quickie in the alley behind the movie theater.

This. Wizardry is a lofty and noble profession, and we do not stand those infernal wannabes.

[Bibliomancer]

A wizard being called a sorcerer is sort of like having a PhD and someone telling you that you only managed to graduate because you have natural talent.

A wizard being called a warlock is like having a PhD and being told you only managed to graduate because you gave the dean a quickie in the alley behind the movie theater.

Interesting simile, but how does one graduate with natural talent? I think the sorcerer half of that simile needs work. Also, I'm fairly certain that the term isn't 'graduate.' They are already graduate students, having graduated undergraduate school with a bachelor's degree. They simply need to succeed on their thesis defense and are then awarded a Doctorate of Philosophy.

[SPoD]

Interesting simile, but how does one graduate with natural talent? I think the sorcerer half of that simile needs work.

I went to art school, trust me: Some students cruise through with all A's without actually improving one bit, simply because they started out with a lot of natural talent. It all depends on the profession.

Also, I'm fairly certain that the term isn't 'graduate.' They are already graduate students, having graduated undergraduate school with a bachelor's degree. They simply need to succeed on their thesis defense and are then awarded a Doctorate of Philosophy.

A fascinating nitpick that in no way changes the substance of my comment.

[Starscream]

A wizard being called a sorcerer is sort of like having a PhD and someone telling you that you only managed to graduate because you have natural talent.

A wizard being called a warlock is like having a PhD and being told you only managed to graduate because you gave the dean a quickie in the alley behind the movie theater.

Dude, I think you just won the thread. This made my day.

[Morty]

Actually, some warlocks aren't born with power, they bargain for it with infernal powers (hence the alignment restrictions). Their descendants receive this power as well, however.

Maybe, it's been a while since I've read Complete Arcane. Still, using invocations rather than spells easily puts warlocks at the bottom of the heap in wizards' eyes.

[Nota Biene]

It should also be noted that the warlock class is in 3.5 is much, much weaker than wizards, or even sorcerers. People have commented that V's specialty in evocation has made him/her a much less effective wizard than he/she could be, but a warlock can't even begin to match that level of competency, and is not a much better blaster either (in fact, they are often worse.)

[Edhelras]

Oh boy, warlocks just suck big-time....

That's pretty much the worst insult I ever heard in DnD....

[waterpenguin43]

A wizard being called a sorcerer is sort of like having a PhD and someone telling you that you only managed to graduate because you have natural talent.

A wizard being called a warlock is like having a PhD and being told you only managed to graduate because you gave the dean a quickie in the alley behind the movie theater.

You're right, I agree with everyone else on that.

[Bibliomancer]

I went to art school, trust me: Some students cruise through with all A's without actually improving one bit, simply because they started out with a lot of natural talent. It all depends on the profession

I tend to think of magic as the sciences, which was why the natural talent thing didn't seem to work.

A fascinating nitpick that in no way changes the substance of my comment.

I was not implying that it did, and I apologize if that was the impression you received. I was simply attempting to clarify the terminology as I understood it.

[Prak]

If wizards consider sorcerer to be upstarts because they have an innate gift for magic, then I suppose warlocks who are not only also born with power but don't use actual spells would be treated like dirt. Can't say they don't have a point, really.

eh, they're just jealous of a Warlock's staying power.

[SPoD]

I tend to think of magic as the sciences, which was why the natural talent thing didn't seem to work.

It was an analogy to our world, not a direct description of theirs. However, a science student could still have a photographic memory or natural talent for doing complex math in his or her head that could vastly improve their chances of doing well.

[Bibliomancer]

eh, they're just jealous of a Warlock's staying power.

Have you ever heard of reserve feats?

It was an analogy to our world, not a direct description of theirs. However, a science student could still have a photographic memory or natural talent for doing complex math in his or her head that could vastly improve their chances of doing well.

True, but in that case that would be like a wizard resenting another wizard for having a higher intelligence.

[Prak]

heh, forgot about those actually.

[Volkov]

Warlocks don't have to work at all for that power, they just need to convince a demon or slaadi to give them some power. If simply needing to have a dragon be in your family tree is bad to a wizard who had to work his arse for his power, then flattering a Balor would be downright awful.

[Nero24200]

I'd say it's due to how they learn spells.

Wizard's need to study for years to learn magic. Sorcerers are born with it, but still require some training to master it. Warlocks gain it via a pact of some kind, essentially gaining power without work.

In some instances, wizards look down on sorcerers as it's beleived that they don't really understand their power. I beleive Mialee is quoted in one book saying (though I don't have the book, so the quote won't be 100% accurate)

"Any idiot can pick up a brush, that doesn't make them an artist". Or somthing to that effect.

In any case, warlocks would be a more extreme example of this. Despite gaining power naturally, sorcerers still require training to master it. Being called a warlock would be insulting, because it's essentailly implying that V is the kind of person who gets everything for free and without any actual talent.

[Starbuck_II]

Warlocks derive their power from infernal sources. It isn't even theirs, thus making them arcane-versions of evil clerics without any useful class features. This also hits uncomfortably close to home for V, since she recently made a similar bargain, and the main warlock ability is basically what an evoker does, except with a single target and no use-limit.

Edit: Ninjaed!

Only if you wish to be evil.
There are celestial Warlocks: Choatic Good, remember chaos or evil alignment. Not both required.

But yeah, they can do their tricks forever. Can never be dispelled of their buffs (do to the overlapping rules allow you to cast 20 spells of same spell on self but they have no benefit except to not be dispelled).

Really, V is just jealous. There was a couple times she would have been better off being one (like when she ran outta spells).

[Volkov]

I don't remember how Wizards look upon psions and that other psionic class that had wild in it's name. I think they'd feel at least some common ground with Psions, who are much like wizards with a different power source.

Or did psions have natural talent?

[MReav]

In any case, warlocks would be a more extreme example of this. Despite gaining power naturally, sorcerers still require training to master it. Being called a warlock would be insulting, because it's essentailly implying that V is the kind of person who gets everything for free and without any actual talent.

I know it's been said before, but I find the irony amusing, since V did actually bargain with the netherworld like a Warlock.

That being said, don't forget, Warlocks could also get their powers from fey, allowing for a chaotic good Warlock if you patronize Nymphs and other good Fey.

[Nero24200]

[QUOTE=MReav;6910515]I know it's been said before, but I find the irony amusing, since V did actually bargain with the netherworld like a Warlock.
[QUOTE]That could be partly why V has such a reaction to the taunt, because as insulting as it was, it was partly true, as V did gain power via a quick method requiring little work or effort.

[ednarimal]

I don't remember how Wizards look upon psions and that other psionic class that had wild in it's name. I think they'd feel at least some common ground with Psions, who are much like wizards with a different power source.

Or did psions have natural talent?

Psions study themselves and their minds to call upon their psionic power.

Although they would seem to get along with wizards(studious, logical, thinking types), they tend to feel that magic is a crutch, and those who use it weak(of mind).

Wilders would be seen as equal to sorcerers, since they act exact like OotS sorcerers are seen.

[whitelaughter]

A wizard being called a sorcerer is sort of like having a PhD and someone telling you that you only managed to graduate because you have natural talent.

since sorcery is inherited, more that you only graduated because daddy had the money to pay.

[1dominator]

A wizard being called a sorcerer is sort of like having a PhD and someone telling you that you only managed to graduate because you have natural talent.

A wizard being called a warlock is like having a PhD and being told you only managed to graduate because you gave the dean a quickie in the alley behind the movie theater.

Quoted for truth.

Speaking of talent this also applies to mathematics, Ive met people who just have a natural aptitude for the stuff. These people are just naturally good at the type of thinking required by mathematics, while the rest of us have to achieve success by hard work, to them it comes naturally.