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2010-01-19, 04:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI
When did the earliest kettle-helmets appear?
within medieval times, please. no anciet stuff here (everytime you invented something in the medieval times some prick would go "the ancients did it!") ;PNeed a setting for your game? a character concept? any gaming related ideas? I make far to many to eat up myself, and therefor I am willing to share them. Free ideas! Get yer fluff here! PM me.
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Originally Posted by Celesyne
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2010-01-19, 03:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI
Couple of questions for the eminently knowledgeable people on this thread:
1. I know shield-and-spear is a well-used combination for military formations, going back millenia, it seems. However, in a one-on-one melee match, how well would this work? It seems like dropping the shield to use the spear two-handed would give more benefits than drawbacks.
2. Would a modern assault rifle function in a vacuum? (I just re-watched the episode "Our Mrs. Reynolds" from Firefly) Would it be good for one shot? Multiple?
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2010-01-19, 03:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI
The shield lets you block attacks while keeping the enemy at bay, also you get alot of penetration power with a spear.
Being a reenactor fighting with a short sword (large knife) and shield I must say I HATE spearmen
both those with arming spears+shields and those with longer two handed spears. hate em allLast edited by Shademan; 2010-01-19 at 03:20 PM.
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on M&B:
Originally Posted by Celesyne
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2010-01-19, 03:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI
If the ammunition had sufficient oxygen content for combustion, or if there were some other way of supplying oxygen to it, then yes it would be good for at least one shot. As to whether the gas-operated recoil system would work I'm less certain. You could still manually **** it after each shot though.
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2010-01-19, 03:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI
Need a setting for your game? a character concept? any gaming related ideas? I make far to many to eat up myself, and therefor I am willing to share them. Free ideas! Get yer fluff here! PM me.
The friendly neighborhood gentleman perv is always ready to help!
on M&B:
Originally Posted by Celesyne
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2010-01-19, 04:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI
2. Would a modern assault rifle function in a vacuum? (I just re-watched the episode "Our Mrs. Reynolds" from Firefly) Would it be good for one shot? Multiple?
theoretically, if you provide oxygen for the reaction, it will work. However, the autoloading system may not function properly. I think classic recoil and blowback systems should work more or less as normal, but i can't be sure. Gas-operated......no idea.
systems that use a external loading system, like the electrically loaded Minigun, would likey work fine, assuming they don't encounter any problems with being exposed to vacuum (the most notable being lack of convection leading to overheating problems).Last edited by Storm Bringer; 2010-01-19 at 04:25 PM.
Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
"Tommy", Rudyard Kipling
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2010-01-19, 04:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI
Maybe this will give you some idea of spear vs. sword ans shield and spear and shield.... and Sax.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FI_yH...eature=related
2. Would a modern assault rifle function in a vacuum? (I just re-watched the episode "Our Mrs. Reynolds" from Firefly) Would it be good for one shot? Multiple?
G.
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2010-01-19, 05:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-01-19, 05:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI
Need a setting for your game? a character concept? any gaming related ideas? I make far to many to eat up myself, and therefor I am willing to share them. Free ideas! Get yer fluff here! PM me.
The friendly neighborhood gentleman perv is always ready to help!
on M&B:
Originally Posted by Celesyne
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2010-01-19, 05:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI
Ok, this is one of the silliest things that I've heard, and it just won't die.
Look at a gun some time. Look at it's ammunition. Take, for example, a modern brass case cartridge. Is it full of holes to allow air to be sucked in to it? Are guns built with carburetors or intake manifolds? No!!! All propellants, even old fashioned blackpowder, the oxygen used in the combustion isn't free airborne oxygen. The oxygen is bound up in other molecules (in the case of black powder it's in the potassium nitrate). I don't know enough about smokeless powders but I assume it's a similar situation. Even if there is free space (i.e. air) inside of a brass cartridge, it's hard to believe that it would contain enough oxygen for total combustion of the propellant. At any rate there is little reason to believe that the propellant wouldn't work in a vacuum.
Sorry I don't mean to sound harsh about this, it just bugs me. I've seen a lot of people put a bunch of time and effort into speculating about this "problem."
Now, certain automatic weapons are sensitive to ambient air-pressure and just about anything with moving parts has to consider temperature. Those would be the main technical concerns, although I suspect improvements in machine guns to operate on high-altitude aircraft went a long way to resolving those problems. In gas-operated weapons, the gas comes from the propellant, so I wouldn't immediately discount such weapons from operating in a vacuum.
As Storm Bringer brought up, the russians did have an auto-cannon installed on their manned spy-satellite (can't remember it's name at the moment). I believe it was something like a 30mm auto-cannon. They had no idea what firing it would do to the satellite itself, and only tested it remotely, once, when the crew was off board. It worked perfectly, and the satellite was undamaged.
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2010-01-19, 05:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI
Sorry, I meant 12th century, not 11th. Mistyped.
The usual source for kettle helms is the Maciejowski Bible, but it was published in 1250 which is a bit late for your purposes. According to the Documentaria Anglo (published 1478), chapel de fer (the french name for kettle hats) were originally made in England in 1011. I've got no references to kettle hats, chapel de fer, or eisenhut (the german name) published before the 13th century, just references in publications that they've been around awhile, like those two I mentioned.
Edit: Just as a note, there were several different 'styles' of kettle hat that are visually distinct. Ones with bands like a spagenhelm, ones with rounded bowls, and ones with pointed bowls. I believe the spagenhelm-like bands were the earliest versions, but I've got nothing to prove that.Last edited by Fhaolan; 2010-01-19 at 05:54 PM.
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2010-01-19, 06:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI
As noted the cartridge provides it's own oxegen bound into the propellant.
As also noted gas recoil systems may be a bit hinky.
The only remaining problem is that longterm exposure can lead to vacumn welding or cementing. This could render the firing mechanism inoperative.
Of course given that vacumn ussually occurs in a low-G or 0-G situation the recoil could be a serious problem.
Stephen E
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2010-01-19, 08:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI
Yeah. Although I imagine that being pushed backward wouldn't be too much of problem in most personal firearms. The main problem would lie in being spun around by the recoil! I suppose the weapon would have to be held so that the recoil pushes directly at the center of gravity of the shooter.
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2010-01-20, 09:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI
Wow thats news to me... you don't need any air to shoot a gun? So they work underwater? (I know they have some which do but I thought they had a very special design to work around this issue)
G.Last edited by Galloglaich; 2010-01-20 at 09:34 AM.
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2010-01-20, 09:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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2010-01-20, 09:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI
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2010-01-20, 10:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI
Need a setting for your game? a character concept? any gaming related ideas? I make far to many to eat up myself, and therefor I am willing to share them. Free ideas! Get yer fluff here! PM me.
The friendly neighborhood gentleman perv is always ready to help!
on M&B:
Originally Posted by Celesyne
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2010-01-20, 10:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI
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2010-01-20, 11:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI
I know Mythbusters tested firing guns into water (while the gun itself was dry) and they found that just about every modern rifle round will disintegrate shortly upon hitting the water, so that 2-3' of water cover made a target effectively bullet-proof. (Interestingly, 1850's era weaponry penetrated water better, being slower. Also, I don't think they tested armor-piercing rounds.)
Now, I know water has very high surface tension, but I suspect a rifle round fired underwater would likely disintegrate shortly after leaving the barrel due to the pressure differential. You'd probably need a reduced powder load to fire a useable bullet, and I can't imagine how hard it would be to aim beyond spitting distance.
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2010-01-20, 11:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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2010-01-20, 12:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI
The chamber pressures while firing underwater can rupture the chamber, which is dangerous at the very least. Some guns are specially designed to be able to fire underwater, as here, but they never use run-of-the-mill ammunition.
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2010-01-20, 04:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI
Actually he was merely speculating, that the gunpowder might have enough oxygen in it, or that you would need to supply more oxygen. You do not need to supply oxygen to any gunpowder that I'm a aware of. His post may not have been the best to quote when replying, but it was part of the conversation.
Originally Posted by Fhaolan
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2010-01-20, 04:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI
So if your going into space,pack a revolver! :)
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2010-01-20, 05:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI
Water is involved in one of the ways of making good blackpowder, but I don't feel this is a good place to explain how to make gunpowder in the danger of your own living room, so I'll leave the details at that.
Let's just say that when blackpowder gets wet, it congeals into a mass. Part of 'good' blackpowder is the fineness of the grains, and now you've got one big lump, so it don't work so well. I believe most modern gunpowders do the same, but I'm not entirely sure as I stopped researching explosive manufacturing after my first year in University (chem eng) as I discovered I knew enough about the subject to be far more dangerous than necessary and that I really didn't want to work in that particular industry*. I'm under the impression that there are some rare and expensive gunpowders that are waterproof, but again I'm not sure.
* No, instead I worked at a cyanide plant in Niagara Falls, Ontario, for a few years. Can you see that I'm not exactly the best at making life choices?Fhaolan by me! Raga avatar by Mephibosheth!
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2010-01-20, 05:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI
That's basically right. From what little I know of it, you use fine-grain powders in handguns and the like, where the gunpowder needs to burn quickly. For rifles, you can use large-grain powder, which burns slower (but that doesn't matter, because you've got an extra several feet of barrel for the powder to burn in). One of the issues brought up with extremely short-barreled rifles is that the barrels aren't long enough to burn all the gunpowder that a longer barrel can, and are therefore less likely to be lethal (and with 5.56x45 rounds, less likely to fragment, which is a lot of the killing power).
[This is the problem with the so-called .50BMG 'handguns;' you're either missing more than half the barrel for the gunpowder to burn in, or your use finer powder and break your wrist with the recoil.]
EDIT: And of course Theif is right, I should read more carefully for context. The powder itself is unlikely to get wet even when submerged, at least for relatively short periods of time, in modern ammunition. The problem is going to be the huge pressure buildup.Last edited by lsfreak; 2010-01-20 at 06:01 PM.
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2010-01-20, 05:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI
It's not water getting into the gunpowder that's the problem in modern guns, it's the pressure the explosion has to overcome to propel the projectile out the barrel. Guns are designed to function with a gaseous "atmospheric" pressure of approx one bar ore less.
Take it underwater and not only does the pressure rise drastically, the atmosphere is suddenly a liquid.
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2010-01-20, 07:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI
If you are going into space, pack a railgun.
Baring the availability of a railgun (They seem so difficult to find for some reason, but ammo is surprisingly cheap when I ask for it at gun shops. Course they always laugh and whisper something about roofing nails as I leave and I can never figure out why) pack a shotgun and a melee weapon.
Shotgun shot isn't likely to breach the insides of your ship or damage internal components too badly, where revolver rounds are much more likely. And the melee weapon is for when you are out of rounds, because as awesome as it is to gun butt people with a shotgun, sometimes you need something more direct.
If we ever make it into space (and for whatever reason there is conflict aboard ships and stations and the like) I forsee a rise in popularity of 4 weapons. The cutlass, the axe, the taser, and any form of club.
The taser is pretty obvious as a means of long range stun that is not likely to damage the sensitive components on the inside fo a ship. The cutlass because it was a highly efficient and popular sword of choice for raiding and boarding parties at sea. The axe, because they are useful anywhere you go. And the club because it is already the most commonly used personnel suppression weapon carried by law enforcement. So it stands to reason that the club must be really good at it's intended purpose. Besides, EVERYTHING is a club.Last edited by Karoht; 2010-01-20 at 07:04 PM.
~~Courage is not the lack of fear~~
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Ask your DM if Aboleth Mucus is right for you.
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2010-01-20, 07:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI
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2010-01-20, 08:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI
~~Courage is not the lack of fear~~
"In soviet dungeon, aboleth farms you!"
"Please consult your DM before administering Steve brand Aboleth Mucus.
Ask your DM if Aboleth Mucus is right for you.
Side effects include coughing, sneezing, and other flu like symptoms, cancer, breathing water like a fish, loss of dignity, loss of balance, loss of bowel and bladder control."
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2010-01-20, 09:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI
Hehe. I'm no chemist, but I've read a fair share of 19th century ordnance manuals. Basically wetting gunpowder (blackpowder), forms it into cakes, which can then be ground, and the grains passed through sieves. This was a huge improvement over the original blackpowder, which was literally a powder mixture of the ingredients that would annoying separate during transport.
The fineness of the grains is tailored to the particular application. Large cannons would use huge "mammoth" grade powder, with grains over half-an-inch. The finest powder (4F), is very quick-acting, and is typically only used for priming. (Although I use 2F - musket grade - for the priming on my Brown Bess, with no problems).
Anyway, have you ever tried to shoot wet gunpowder? Fizzzzzz! It doesn't really congeal, but it does get pretty runny in a heavy rain. Once granular powder gets wet, about the only thing you can do is lay it out in the sun, and hope it dries. Even then you can't expect good performance. That's what the old manuals say.
@Thiel
Trying to fire a gun under water may result in blown breaches, or ruptured barrels? I suppose some guns (probably those with short barrels), could deal with the extra pressure? However, I was thinking that moving parts might not move properly when under water, and simply not fire?