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  1. - Top - End - #751
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI

    When did the earliest kettle-helmets appear?
    within medieval times, please. no anciet stuff here (everytime you invented something in the medieval times some prick would go "the ancients did it!") ;P
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celesyne
    oh, and looting villages is REALLY good money, if a nearby lord doesn't stop by and give you a daily dose of rape.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI

    Couple of questions for the eminently knowledgeable people on this thread:

    1. I know shield-and-spear is a well-used combination for military formations, going back millenia, it seems. However, in a one-on-one melee match, how well would this work? It seems like dropping the shield to use the spear two-handed would give more benefits than drawbacks.

    2. Would a modern assault rifle function in a vacuum? (I just re-watched the episode "Our Mrs. Reynolds" from Firefly) Would it be good for one shot? Multiple?

  3. - Top - End - #753
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI

    The shield lets you block attacks while keeping the enemy at bay, also you get alot of penetration power with a spear.
    Being a reenactor fighting with a short sword (large knife) and shield I must say I HATE spearmen
    both those with arming spears+shields and those with longer two handed spears. hate em all
    Last edited by Shademan; 2010-01-19 at 03:20 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celesyne
    oh, and looting villages is REALLY good money, if a nearby lord doesn't stop by and give you a daily dose of rape.
    http://baetzler.de/humor/meat_beings.html

  4. - Top - End - #754
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Eorran View Post
    2. Would a modern assault rifle function in a vacuum? (I just re-watched the episode "Our Mrs. Reynolds" from Firefly) Would it be good for one shot? Multiple?
    If the ammunition had sufficient oxygen content for combustion, or if there were some other way of supplying oxygen to it, then yes it would be good for at least one shot. As to whether the gas-operated recoil system would work I'm less certain. You could still manually **** it after each shot though.

  5. - Top - End - #755
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondeye View Post
    If the ammunition had sufficient oxygen content for combustion, or if there were some other way of supplying oxygen to it, then yes it would be good for at least one shot. As to whether the gas-operated recoil system would work I'm less certain. You could still manually **** it after each shot though.
    In firefly they put a rifle inside a space suit and shoot out of it IN SPAACEE!
    it's only good for one shot tho'
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celesyne
    oh, and looting villages is REALLY good money, if a nearby lord doesn't stop by and give you a daily dose of rape.
    http://baetzler.de/humor/meat_beings.html

  6. - Top - End - #756
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI

    2. Would a modern assault rifle function in a vacuum? (I just re-watched the episode "Our Mrs. Reynolds" from Firefly) Would it be good for one shot? Multiple?
    to my knowledge, the russians were able to get a 20mm cannon to work in space, sucessfuly firing it. however, I don't know how they did and what problems they faced

    theoretically, if you provide oxygen for the reaction, it will work. However, the autoloading system may not function properly. I think classic recoil and blowback systems should work more or less as normal, but i can't be sure. Gas-operated......no idea.

    systems that use a external loading system, like the electrically loaded Minigun, would likey work fine, assuming they don't encounter any problems with being exposed to vacuum (the most notable being lack of convection leading to overheating problems).
    Last edited by Storm Bringer; 2010-01-19 at 04:25 PM.
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  7. - Top - End - #757
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Eorran View Post
    Couple of questions for the eminently knowledgeable people on this thread:

    1. I know shield-and-spear is a well-used combination for military formations, going back millenia, it seems. However, in a one-on-one melee match, how well would this work? It seems like dropping the shield to use the spear two-handed would give more benefits than drawbacks.
    Maybe this will give you some idea of spear vs. sword ans shield and spear and shield.... and Sax.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FI_yH...eature=related

    2. Would a modern assault rifle function in a vacuum? (I just re-watched the episode "Our Mrs. Reynolds" from Firefly) Would it be good for one shot? Multiple?
    No. You need oxygen to burn gunpowder. If there was still residual O2 in the air, like in an airlock ... maybe?

    G.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Shademan View Post
    When did the earliest kettle-helmets appear?
    within medieval times, please. no anciet stuff here (everytime you invented something in the medieval times some prick would go "the ancients did it!") ;P
    Kettles show up near the begining of the 11th century, and stayed pretty much unchanged right up to and including WWII.
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  9. - Top - End - #759
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Fhaolan View Post
    Kettles show up near the begining of the 11th century, and stayed pretty much unchanged right up to and including WWII.
    Can you please show me some source? I really want to buy one for my reenactment and we're doing 12th century and the captian can't decide wether she agrees with it or not
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celesyne
    oh, and looting villages is REALLY good money, if a nearby lord doesn't stop by and give you a daily dose of rape.
    http://baetzler.de/humor/meat_beings.html

  10. - Top - End - #760
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondeye View Post
    If the ammunition had sufficient oxygen content for combustion, or if there were some other way of supplying oxygen to it, then yes it would be good for at least one shot. As to whether the gas-operated recoil system would work I'm less certain. You could still manually **** it after each shot though.
    Ok, this is one of the silliest things that I've heard, and it just won't die.

    Look at a gun some time. Look at it's ammunition. Take, for example, a modern brass case cartridge. Is it full of holes to allow air to be sucked in to it? Are guns built with carburetors or intake manifolds? No!!! All propellants, even old fashioned blackpowder, the oxygen used in the combustion isn't free airborne oxygen. The oxygen is bound up in other molecules (in the case of black powder it's in the potassium nitrate). I don't know enough about smokeless powders but I assume it's a similar situation. Even if there is free space (i.e. air) inside of a brass cartridge, it's hard to believe that it would contain enough oxygen for total combustion of the propellant. At any rate there is little reason to believe that the propellant wouldn't work in a vacuum.

    Sorry I don't mean to sound harsh about this, it just bugs me. I've seen a lot of people put a bunch of time and effort into speculating about this "problem."

    Now, certain automatic weapons are sensitive to ambient air-pressure and just about anything with moving parts has to consider temperature. Those would be the main technical concerns, although I suspect improvements in machine guns to operate on high-altitude aircraft went a long way to resolving those problems. In gas-operated weapons, the gas comes from the propellant, so I wouldn't immediately discount such weapons from operating in a vacuum.

    As Storm Bringer brought up, the russians did have an auto-cannon installed on their manned spy-satellite (can't remember it's name at the moment). I believe it was something like a 30mm auto-cannon. They had no idea what firing it would do to the satellite itself, and only tested it remotely, once, when the crew was off board. It worked perfectly, and the satellite was undamaged.

  11. - Top - End - #761
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Shademan View Post
    Can you please show me some source? I really want to buy one for my reenactment and we're doing 12th century and the captian can't decide wether she agrees with it or not
    Sorry, I meant 12th century, not 11th. Mistyped.

    The usual source for kettle helms is the Maciejowski Bible, but it was published in 1250 which is a bit late for your purposes. According to the Documentaria Anglo (published 1478), chapel de fer (the french name for kettle hats) were originally made in England in 1011. I've got no references to kettle hats, chapel de fer, or eisenhut (the german name) published before the 13th century, just references in publications that they've been around awhile, like those two I mentioned.

    Edit: Just as a note, there were several different 'styles' of kettle hat that are visually distinct. Ones with bands like a spagenhelm, ones with rounded bowls, and ones with pointed bowls. I believe the spagenhelm-like bands were the earliest versions, but I've got nothing to prove that.
    Last edited by Fhaolan; 2010-01-19 at 05:54 PM.
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  12. - Top - End - #762
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Eorran View Post
    2. Would a modern assault rifle function in a vacuum? (I just re-watched the episode "Our Mrs. Reynolds" from Firefly) Would it be good for one shot? Multiple?
    As noted the cartridge provides it's own oxegen bound into the propellant.

    As also noted gas recoil systems may be a bit hinky.

    The only remaining problem is that longterm exposure can lead to vacumn welding or cementing. This could render the firing mechanism inoperative.

    Of course given that vacumn ussually occurs in a low-G or 0-G situation the recoil could be a serious problem.

    Stephen E

  13. - Top - End - #763
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen_E View Post
    Of course given that vacumn ussually occurs in a low-G or 0-G situation the recoil could be a serious problem.

    Stephen E
    Yeah. Although I imagine that being pushed backward wouldn't be too much of problem in most personal firearms. The main problem would lie in being spun around by the recoil! I suppose the weapon would have to be held so that the recoil pushes directly at the center of gravity of the shooter.

  14. - Top - End - #764
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI

    Wow thats news to me... you don't need any air to shoot a gun? So they work underwater? (I know they have some which do but I thought they had a very special design to work around this issue)

    G.
    Last edited by Galloglaich; 2010-01-20 at 09:34 AM.

  15. - Top - End - #765
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Galloglaich View Post
    Wow thats news to me... you don't need any air to shoot a gun? So they work underwater? (I know they have some which do but I thought they had a very special design to work around this issue)

    G.
    There are problems with guns underwater, but it's not due to lack of O2. It's the water itself mucking up stuff.
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  16. - Top - End - #766
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Fhaolan View Post
    There are problems with guns underwater, but it's not due to lack of O2. It's the water itself mucking up stuff.
    Plus, the bullet overcoming the resistance of water instead of air puts more pressure on the chamber, and increases the chance of a catastrophic failure.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_G View Post
    Plus, the bullet overcoming the resistance of water instead of air puts more pressure on the chamber, and increases the chance of a catastrophic failure.
    if I may derail a little bit, where is your avatar from?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celesyne
    oh, and looting villages is REALLY good money, if a nearby lord doesn't stop by and give you a daily dose of rape.
    http://baetzler.de/humor/meat_beings.html

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Shademan View Post
    if I may derail a little bit, where is your avatar from?

    It's from Chainmail Bikini a webcomic by Shamus Young (of DM of the Rings fame) that ran for a while, but got abandoned.

    I can't seem to find it with a quick google search. It must be archived somewhere.
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  19. - Top - End - #769
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_G View Post
    Plus, the bullet overcoming the resistance of water instead of air puts more pressure on the chamber, and increases the chance of a catastrophic failure.
    I know Mythbusters tested firing guns into water (while the gun itself was dry) and they found that just about every modern rifle round will disintegrate shortly upon hitting the water, so that 2-3' of water cover made a target effectively bullet-proof. (Interestingly, 1850's era weaponry penetrated water better, being slower. Also, I don't think they tested armor-piercing rounds.)

    Now, I know water has very high surface tension, but I suspect a rifle round fired underwater would likely disintegrate shortly after leaving the barrel due to the pressure differential. You'd probably need a reduced powder load to fire a useable bullet, and I can't imagine how hard it would be to aim beyond spitting distance.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI

    Quote Originally Posted by fusilier View Post
    Ok, this is one of the silliest things that I've heard, and it just won't die.

    Look at a gun some time. Look at it's ammunition. Take, for example, a modern brass case cartridge. Is it full of holes to allow air to be sucked in to it? Are guns built with carburetors or intake manifolds? No!!! All propellants, even old fashioned blackpowder, the oxygen used in the combustion isn't free airborne oxygen...
    Dude, Diamondeye was agreeing with you.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI

    The chamber pressures while firing underwater can rupture the chamber, which is dangerous at the very least. Some guns are specially designed to be able to fire underwater, as here, but they never use run-of-the-mill ammunition.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Dervag View Post
    Dude, Diamondeye was agreeing with you.
    Actually he was merely speculating, that the gunpowder might have enough oxygen in it, or that you would need to supply more oxygen. You do not need to supply oxygen to any gunpowder that I'm a aware of. His post may not have been the best to quote when replying, but it was part of the conversation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fhaolan
    There are problems with guns underwater, but it's not due to lack of O2. It's the water itself mucking up stuff.
    My understanding is that water is deleterious to most gunpowders. Probably to some primers too. As pointed out already there are other issues with firing a gun underwater.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI

    So if your going into space,pack a revolver! :)

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI

    Quote Originally Posted by fusilier View Post
    My understanding is that water is deleterious to most gunpowders. Probably to some primers too. As pointed out already there are other issues with firing a gun underwater.
    Water is involved in one of the ways of making good blackpowder, but I don't feel this is a good place to explain how to make gunpowder in the danger of your own living room, so I'll leave the details at that.

    Let's just say that when blackpowder gets wet, it congeals into a mass. Part of 'good' blackpowder is the fineness of the grains, and now you've got one big lump, so it don't work so well. I believe most modern gunpowders do the same, but I'm not entirely sure as I stopped researching explosive manufacturing after my first year in University (chem eng) as I discovered I knew enough about the subject to be far more dangerous than necessary and that I really didn't want to work in that particular industry*. I'm under the impression that there are some rare and expensive gunpowders that are waterproof, but again I'm not sure.

    * No, instead I worked at a cyanide plant in Niagara Falls, Ontario, for a few years. Can you see that I'm not exactly the best at making life choices?
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  25. - Top - End - #775
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Fhaolan View Post
    Let's just say that when blackpowder gets wet, it congeals into a mass. Part of 'good' blackpowder is the fineness of the grains, and now you've got one big lump, so it don't work so well. I believe most modern gunpowders do the same[snip]
    That's basically right. From what little I know of it, you use fine-grain powders in handguns and the like, where the gunpowder needs to burn quickly. For rifles, you can use large-grain powder, which burns slower (but that doesn't matter, because you've got an extra several feet of barrel for the powder to burn in). One of the issues brought up with extremely short-barreled rifles is that the barrels aren't long enough to burn all the gunpowder that a longer barrel can, and are therefore less likely to be lethal (and with 5.56x45 rounds, less likely to fragment, which is a lot of the killing power).

    [This is the problem with the so-called .50BMG 'handguns;' you're either missing more than half the barrel for the gunpowder to burn in, or your use finer powder and break your wrist with the recoil.]

    EDIT: And of course Theif is right, I should read more carefully for context. The powder itself is unlikely to get wet even when submerged, at least for relatively short periods of time, in modern ammunition. The problem is going to be the huge pressure buildup.
    Last edited by lsfreak; 2010-01-20 at 06:01 PM.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Fhaolan View Post
    Water is involved in one of the ways of making good blackpowder, but I don't feel this is a good place to explain how to make gunpowder in the danger of your own living room, so I'll leave the details at that.

    Let's just say that when blackpowder gets wet, it congeals into a mass. Part of 'good' blackpowder is the fineness of the grains, and now you've got one big lump, so it don't work so well. I believe most modern gunpowders do the same, but I'm not entirely sure as I stopped researching explosive manufacturing after my first year in University (chem eng) as I discovered I knew enough about the subject to be far more dangerous than necessary and that I really didn't want to work in that particular industry*. I'm under the impression that there are some rare and expensive gunpowders that are waterproof, but again I'm not sure.

    * No, instead I worked at a cyanide plant in Niagara Falls, Ontario, for a few years. Can you see that I'm not exactly the best at making life choices?
    It's not water getting into the gunpowder that's the problem in modern guns, it's the pressure the explosion has to overcome to propel the projectile out the barrel. Guns are designed to function with a gaseous "atmospheric" pressure of approx one bar ore less.
    Take it underwater and not only does the pressure rise drastically, the atmosphere is suddenly a liquid.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI

    Quote Originally Posted by bansidhe View Post
    So if your going into space,pack a revolver! :)
    If you are going into space, pack a railgun.
    Baring the availability of a railgun (They seem so difficult to find for some reason, but ammo is surprisingly cheap when I ask for it at gun shops. Course they always laugh and whisper something about roofing nails as I leave and I can never figure out why) pack a shotgun and a melee weapon.
    Shotgun shot isn't likely to breach the insides of your ship or damage internal components too badly, where revolver rounds are much more likely. And the melee weapon is for when you are out of rounds, because as awesome as it is to gun butt people with a shotgun, sometimes you need something more direct.

    If we ever make it into space (and for whatever reason there is conflict aboard ships and stations and the like) I forsee a rise in popularity of 4 weapons. The cutlass, the axe, the taser, and any form of club.
    The taser is pretty obvious as a means of long range stun that is not likely to damage the sensitive components on the inside fo a ship. The cutlass because it was a highly efficient and popular sword of choice for raiding and boarding parties at sea. The axe, because they are useful anywhere you go. And the club because it is already the most commonly used personnel suppression weapon carried by law enforcement. So it stands to reason that the club must be really good at it's intended purpose. Besides, EVERYTHING is a club.
    Last edited by Karoht; 2010-01-20 at 07:04 PM.
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  28. - Top - End - #778
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Karoht View Post
    If you are going into space, pack a railgun.
    Baring the availability of a railgun (They seem so difficult to find for some reason, but ammo is surprisingly cheap when I ask for it at gun shops. Course they always laugh and whisper something about roofing nails as I leave and I can never figure out why) pack a shotgun and a melee weapon.
    Shotgun shot isn't likely to breach the insides of your ship or damage internal components too badly, where revolver rounds are much more likely. And the melee weapon is for when you are out of rounds, because as awesome as it is to gun butt people with a shotgun, sometimes you need something more direct.

    If we ever make it into space (and for whatever reason there is conflict aboard ships and stations and the like) I forsee a rise in popularity of 4 weapons. The cutlass, the axe, the taser, and any form of club.
    The taser is pretty obvious as a means of long range stun that is not likely to damage the sensitive components on the inside fo a ship. The cutlass because it was a highly efficient and popular sword of choice for raiding and boarding parties at sea. The axe, because they are useful anywhere you go. And the club because it is already the most commonly used personnel suppression weapon carried by law enforcement. So it stands to reason that the club must be really good at it's intended purpose. Besides, EVERYTHING is a club.
    The problem is, in space there's no gravity* and that means that when you swing your melee weapon, you'll start spinning the other way like a demented yo-yo.

    *There is, but you don't feel it.
    The fastest animal alive today is a small dinosaur, Falco Peregrino.
    It prays mainly on other dinosaurs, which it strikes and kills in midair with its claws.
    This is a good world


    Calcifer the Fire Demon by Djinn_In_Tonic

  29. - Top - End - #779
    Firbolg in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Where ever trouble brews
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    Male

    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Thiel View Post
    The problem is, in space there's no gravity* and that means that when you swing your melee weapon, you'll start spinning the other way like a demented yo-yo.

    *There is, but you don't feel it.
    I knew when I posted that I was missing something.

    Magnetic boots. While the other guys flounder in zero G, you stand your ground firm. woot.
    ~~Courage is not the lack of fear~~
    Quote Originally Posted by gooddragon1 View Post
    If the party wizard can't survive a supersonic dragon made of iron at epic levels it's his own fault really.
    "In soviet dungeon, aboleth farms you!"
    "Please consult your DM before administering Steve brand Aboleth Mucus.
    Ask your DM if Aboleth Mucus is right for you.
    Side effects include coughing, sneezing, and other flu like symptoms, cancer, breathing water like a fish, loss of dignity, loss of balance, loss of bowel and bladder control."

  30. - Top - End - #780
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2008

    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Fhaolan View Post
    Water is involved in one of the ways of making good blackpowder, but I don't feel this is a good place to explain how to make gunpowder in the danger of your own living room, so I'll leave the details at that.

    Let's just say that when blackpowder gets wet, it congeals into a mass. Part of 'good' blackpowder is the fineness of the grains, and now you've got one big lump, so it don't work so well. I believe most modern gunpowders do the same, but I'm not entirely sure as I stopped researching explosive manufacturing after my first year in University (chem eng) as I discovered I knew enough about the subject to be far more dangerous than necessary and that I really didn't want to work in that particular industry*. I'm under the impression that there are some rare and expensive gunpowders that are waterproof, but again I'm not sure.

    * No, instead I worked at a cyanide plant in Niagara Falls, Ontario, for a few years. Can you see that I'm not exactly the best at making life choices?
    Hehe. I'm no chemist, but I've read a fair share of 19th century ordnance manuals. Basically wetting gunpowder (blackpowder), forms it into cakes, which can then be ground, and the grains passed through sieves. This was a huge improvement over the original blackpowder, which was literally a powder mixture of the ingredients that would annoying separate during transport.

    The fineness of the grains is tailored to the particular application. Large cannons would use huge "mammoth" grade powder, with grains over half-an-inch. The finest powder (4F), is very quick-acting, and is typically only used for priming. (Although I use 2F - musket grade - for the priming on my Brown Bess, with no problems).

    Anyway, have you ever tried to shoot wet gunpowder? Fizzzzzz! It doesn't really congeal, but it does get pretty runny in a heavy rain. Once granular powder gets wet, about the only thing you can do is lay it out in the sun, and hope it dries. Even then you can't expect good performance. That's what the old manuals say.

    @Thiel
    Trying to fire a gun under water may result in blown breaches, or ruptured barrels? I suppose some guns (probably those with short barrels), could deal with the extra pressure? However, I was thinking that moving parts might not move properly when under water, and simply not fire?

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