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  1. - Top - End - #2461
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI

    What you most probably would have at hand is a spear and a knife. These weapons are ancient and can be virtually found in every place and time people lived.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Telonius View Post
    Got an interesting one for the experts here.

    Suppose you're a bandit living somewhere in the Turkish or Persian highland areas, somewhere around 1800-1600 BCE. What are some weapons that you'd reasonably be expected to have? I'm particularly interested in something you'd use in close-quarters combat or something like a duel. Short-range would work too - maybe something a sneaky jerk would use in a duel dishonorably.
    Akinakes

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI

    Apparently the Akinakes first appeared almost 1000 years later.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    Apparently the Akinakes first appeared almost 1000 years later.
    Haha, I misunderstood and thought they were talking about the Abenaki indians.

    I was getting ready for the great Viking vs. Injun discussion!
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Norsesmithy View Post
    I don't doubt that the sten gun is eminently manufacture-able with 1860s tech and industrial base. I just don't see a source for sufficient quantities of uniform enough brass cartridges needed to supply units armed with Sten Guns.

    Not in the Union, and especially not in the south.
    I agree, supply of brass cartridges would be a serious problem. They were very expensive, and there was little industry set up to make them.

    I'm not so sure that the sten gun would be that easy to manufacture. Stamped metal and welding facilities could be found in the 1940s in bicycle shops. Stamping presses certainly existed in the 1860s, but I don't know how widespread they were. However, the only welding available in the 1860s was forge welding, and I don't know how suitable that would be for stamped parts.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Storm Bringer View Post
    a question of a idle mind:

    the Minie ball came into usage in the 1840s (ish), but is thier any reason why, if it had been thought of, it could not have been invented eariler. from my understanding of the tech, the only thing that prevented it form being invented eariler was that no one had thought of it.

    am i right, or am i missing something? is thier some critical element of the Minie ball or the rilfes of the time that prevented it form working any eariler?
    Concerning the topic of the Minie ball. I just came across a reference to the "Nessler Ball" (or bullet). Apparently during the mid-1850s, this was a sort of minie ball for *smoothbore*(!) muskets. And was said to extend the effective range of muskets considerably. It's description sounds like a short minie ball. It was popular with European armies, especially in the 1850s, as a stop-gap measure, but for some reason was never adopted by the US during the Civil War. Here's a link to some more info:

    http://www.civilwarguns.com/9910b.html

    Can't seem to find out too much info about it, but that article mentions a test. If anybody knows anything else, I would be interested to hear.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Storm Bringer View Post
    a question of a idle mind:

    the Minie ball came into usage in the 1840s (ish), but is thier any reason why, if it had been thought of, it could not have been invented eariler. from my understanding of the tech, the only thing that prevented it form being invented eariler was that no one had thought of it.

    am i right, or am i missing something? is thier some critical element of the Minie ball or the rilfes of the time that prevented it form working any eariler?
    As far as I know of, no, there's nothing to prevent the Minie ball from being developed earlier. Once industry got good enough to create standardized rifles, the Minie ball could have been developed. I don't believe the Minie ball required any special machinery or metal alloy; it was just a conical bullet made of lead that spread out the base when fired.

    Revolutionary rifles differed in calibers between .40 to .60 and required special bullet molds for each rifle. If the Minie ball existed, perhaps rifles would have been better standardized.

    The other major invention that helped improve rate of fire and reliability was the percussion cap, but apparently, fulminates weren't discovered until 1800.
    Last edited by Joran; 2010-08-26 at 03:58 PM.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI

    I am prolly talking out my rear end without being an expert or the like however.

    If I am not mistaken, miniballs have little benefit over simply round shot in a smooth bore musket becuase it can not take advantage of the spin. I wouldn't be surprised if you also got a tumble out of the miniball.

    Add on to that that the speed of loading a miniball though not significantly lower is slower since you have assure you load the ball correctly. Without too significant of an improvement (if any) over a normal ball there is no reason to slow your load speed down and increase the difficulty in crafting the bullet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazedloon View Post
    I am prolly talking out my rear end without being an expert or the like however.

    If I am not mistaken, miniballs have little benefit over simply round shot in a smooth bore musket becuase it can not take advantage of the spin. I wouldn't be surprised if you also got a tumble out of the miniball.

    Add on to that that the speed of loading a miniball though not significantly lower is slower since you have assure you load the ball correctly. Without too significant of an improvement (if any) over a normal ball there is no reason to slow your load speed down and increase the difficulty in crafting the bullet.
    I'm guessing you are referring to the Nessler ball?

    I found a photo here:
    http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/topic/2641

    As for the issue of entering the ball (bullet) into the muzzle the correct way, that's not a major problem with military ammunition, because of the way it is packaged in the paper cartridge. It would take more effort to turn the ball the wrong way during loading.

    Most modern descriptions of a round ball "bouncing" down the tube of a smoothbore musket barrel, stem from military practice of using an undersized ball (to ensure that it could actually be loaded). If you look at the suggested loads from modern manufacturers, you will notice a bigger ball and a significantly thick patch (also, a smaller amount of propellant). As long as the walls of the barrel are true, this may result in tolerable accuracy out to about 100 yards (if anecdotal evidence is to be believed).

    The issue of ball spin may still be a problem in such a situation (I honestly don't know, so forgive me while I talk out of my hat). The Nessler ball however, has parallel sides. As it will expand to fit the sides of the bore, this will probably prevent it from being able to gain any unwanted spin (i.e. the only spin it could produce would be around it's axis, like a rifle bullet). From the very little evidence I have read, it worked! It was not as effective as a rifle, but it was better than a round ball. It also seems to have better range for a given elevation: flatter shooting - like a crossbow! ;-) Note that the powder load reportedly used with the Nessler ball is also less than what used with the round ball. Indicating that it probably had less windage.

    So my guess is, if it expanded to fill the bore, it would not tumble during flight - barring any accidents in the shape of the bullet or the interior of the bore.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI

    Quote Originally Posted by fusilier View Post
    I agree, supply of brass cartridges would be a serious problem. They were very expensive, and there was little industry set up to make them.

    I'm not so sure that the sten gun would be that easy to manufacture. Stamped metal and welding facilities could be found in the 1940s in bicycle shops. Stamping presses certainly existed in the 1860s, but I don't know how widespread they were. However, the only welding available in the 1860s was forge welding, and I don't know how suitable that would be for stamped parts.
    I think introducing the Sten would be difficult, as you'd run right smack into doctrine, theory and tradition. The Henry was a tough sell form those reasons.

    I think an early breechloader, like the Chassepot or Dreyse or even the Martini-Henry, which are only about 10 years in the future, and some of which can use paper cartridges would be an easier upgrade, would prove better over the existing muzzle loaders, but would fill the role generals expected of a rifle, as opposed to the new, undeveloped role of SMG.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI

    Quote Originally Posted by fusilier View Post
    I agree, supply of brass cartridges would be a serious problem. They were very expensive, and there was little industry set up to make them.

    I'm not so sure that the sten gun would be that easy to manufacture. Stamped metal and welding facilities could be found in the 1940s in bicycle shops. Stamping presses certainly existed in the 1860s, but I don't know how widespread they were. However, the only welding available in the 1860s was forge welding, and I don't know how suitable that would be for stamped parts.
    Sure, the real sten was stamped, but the fact is, that if you can make springs, you can make a "sten" or sten analog. You could rivet, or bolt, or interlock and pin to hold the thing together, in the end, it doesn't really make any difference. Much more complex firearms than Stens are copied by artisans in the Kyber Pass using bloomery steel and 18th century metalworking techniques.

    Mike's point about the incompatibility of weapon system and doctrine is a good one.
    Last edited by Norsesmithy; 2010-08-26 at 08:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Norsesmithy View Post
    Sure, the real sten was stamped, but the fact is, that if you can make springs, you can make a "sten" or sten analog. You could rivet, or bolt, or interlock and pin to hold the thing together, in the end, it doesn't really make any difference. Much more complex firearms than Stens are copied by artisans in the Kyber Pass using bloomery steel and 18th century metalworking techniques.

    Mike's point about the incompatibility of weapon system and doctrine is a good one.
    Yeah, I would agree. But then the "simplicity" of the sten starts to disappear. There are also issues with using black-powder in fully automatic weapons (not insurmountable ones), or with setting up the industry to produce new propellants.

    However, weapons like the Henry and Spencer did exist and were fielded in small numbers. The Dreyse needle rifle had been in use since the 1840s, and prototypes of the Chassepot had been made. The US Sharpshooters used the breechloading Sharps rifle (and originally the Colt revolver rifle) during the war. So there were single shot breechloaders in use, and their use basically convinced the US to adopt them, almost immediately after the war.

    Doctrine would be a serious issue, but it wouldn't be the first time that new weapons had run into old doctrine. It would be interesting to speculate about what effect it would have on doctrine. Off the top of my head, a lightweight sub machine gun may make a decent cavalry weapon. Short range, spray and pray tactics, basically describe how revolvers were supposed to be used during the era. The range is much shorter than what was expected of an infantry weapon -- except maybe an outdated smoothbore musket.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI

    It's not exactly a weapons or armor question I have (well, I do, but that's one of a few questions), rather a tactics one.

    I've heard that King Gustavus II Adolphus/Gustav II Adolf was a military genius, and I've read sparingly about his strategies (something to do with being more maneuverable then tercios), but I'd like to know more specifics of why he's considered one of the greatest military minds of the century, if not era.

    Additionally, I've heard that Swedish-made weapons (specifically guns) of that era were particularly well made and prized. What made this so?

    Finally, who is generally considered the best general of the Thirty Year's War after Gustav?
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI

    To your first question, because he is widely believed to be the father of "Fire & Movement". Whether this is true or not, or whether he just happened to be doing what everyone else was, and was the guy lucky enough to become famous for it, I don't know.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI

    Quote Originally Posted by fusilier
    Doctrine would be a serious issue, but it wouldn't be the first time that new weapons had run into old doctrine. It would be interesting to speculate about what effect it would have on doctrine. Off the top of my head, a lightweight sub machine gun may make a decent cavalry weapon. Short range, spray and pray tactics, basically describe how revolvers were supposed to be used during the era. The range is much shorter than what was expected of an infantry weapon -- except maybe an outdated smoothbore musket.
    Interesting, I had the complete opposite response. I would have thought it would be used as more of a defensive infantry weapon in the fashion of WWI machine guns. Not something that would be used to attacked, but as rather as support to keep the unit from being charged.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI

    IIRC Wallenstein was considered the 2nd best general of the 30 years war period.

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    Last edited by Stephen_E; 2010-08-26 at 11:19 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by a_humble_lich View Post
    Interesting, I had the complete opposite response. I would have thought it would be used as more of a defensive infantry weapon in the fashion of WWI machine guns. Not something that would be used to attacked, but as rather as support to keep the unit from being charged.
    That's the role of a heavy machine gun - and those were already being experimented with (Gatling, Agar, Williams). The French Mitrailleuse was viewed as a kind of replacement for cannister shot for artillery. The new rifled muzzle-loading cannons had poor dispersion of shot, so they used machine guns to provide close range (for artillery) support against infantry formations. That was the theory anyway, although they did seem to do a decent job at the Battle of Gravelotte in 1870.

    Typically, I imagine, the defender wants to keep the attacker as far a way as possible. That's not to say sub-machine guns wouldn't be useful in repelling an attack, but that their light-weight, mobility, and short range, seem to make them better offensive weapons. Interesting that we are already debating their role. :-)

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI

    Quote Originally Posted by RationalGoblin View Post
    Additionally, I've heard that Swedish-made weapons (specifically guns) of that era were particularly well made and prized. What made this so?

    Finally, who is generally considered the best general of the Thirty Year's War after Gustav?
    Swedish iron was considered to be very good when it came to making cast iron cannons. Cast iron cannons were cheaper than bronze, but more prone to exploding, so quality iron was considered key. I'm not sure if that applied to this time period though, as most field guns were bronze.

    The Swedes under Gustavus were found of using small, light "regimental" or "battalion" guns. Small cannon that were fielded directly with the infantry units. He was not the first to do this, but he tended to use more of them than his opponents. Some of these cannon were even made from leather -- although in reality they were a composite construction.

    Gustavus has a reputation for being unbeatable on the battlefield up to his death. Wallenstein was able to beat him at the Battle of Alte Veste, which did much to rally the Imperial side, even though he subsequently lost the Battle of Lutzen -- that is considered to have been a very close battle.

    Some other notable Generals would be Tilly and Mansfeld, but I don't know how they would rank.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_G View Post
    I think introducing the Sten would be difficult, as you'd run right smack into doctrine, theory and tradition. The Henry was a tough sell form those reasons.
    I think that the logistical problems of providing ammunition would make it pretty untenable. Providing each man who had one with even two full magazines would be much more of an issue than providing the firearm itself.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI

    Quote Originally Posted by fusilier View Post
    Swedish iron was considered to be very good when it came to making cast iron cannons. Cast iron cannons were cheaper than bronze, but more prone to exploding, so quality iron was considered key.
    To be specific, bronze has low metal-on-metal friction so an iron cannonball won't stick in a bronze cannon, but it might stick in an iron cannon. If you're using iron balls, you want your iron cannon to be stronger than normal so it doesn't explode if it jams.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI

    That's not why iron cannons explode at all, it has to do with heat retention in the metal, and pourability (and therefore uniformity) when casting. Go back to the time of wrought iron, and it had much to do with the quality of your forge welds on the "staves" of the barrel.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI

    Quote Originally Posted by fusilier View Post
    The Swedes under Gustavus were found of using small, light "regimental" or "battalion" guns. Small cannon that were fielded directly with the infantry units. He was not the first to do this, but he tended to use more of them than his opponents. Some of these cannon were even made from leather -- although in reality they were a composite construction.

    Gustavus has a reputation for being unbeatable on the battlefield up to his death. Wallenstein was able to beat him at the Battle of Alte Veste, which did much to rally the Imperial side, even though he subsequently lost the Battle of Lutzen -- that is considered to have been a very close battle.

    Some other notable Generals would be Tilly and Mansfeld, but I don't know how they would rank.
    "Small" is relative. Even the "small" guns he used were bigger than than the artillery guns used by Napoleon, for example. They were, however, small enough that they could be adjusted / re-aimed by a number of foot soldiers in an emergency, and could be pulled between battles by two oxen or horses. Compare that with the standard size cannons of the day that required 6 horses or oxen to move in position, and were almost impossible to adjust during battle. That's why they were always captured by the winning side in a battle. Even if a Swedish force had to retreat, they could often keep most of their guns.

    Gustaf placed his artillery both in separate positions, but also often gave a cannon or two to most infantry positions.

    This was one of the innovations by the Swedish army at the time that made them superior on the battlefield, combined with the new formations that were easier to maneuver and more effective since all men in the formation could use their weapon against the enemy.

    Lutzen would have been less close of a battle if Gustaf ("Gustavus") had not been killed in it; loosing your commanding general is not a good thing for an army...

    Mansfield I do not remember much about, but Tilly was an a strange man; for one thing by the time of the 30 year war, he was well over 80 years old.
    Last edited by Avilan the Grey; 2010-08-30 at 01:44 AM.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey View Post
    "Small" is relative. Even the "small" guns he used were bigger than than the artillery guns used by Napoleon, for example. They were, however, small enough that they could be adjusted / re-aimed by a number of foot soldiers in an emergency, and could be pulled between battles by two oxen or horses. Compare that with the standard size cannons of the day that required 6 horses or oxen to move in position, and were almost impossible to adjust during battle. That's why they were always captured by the winning side in a battle. Even if a Swedish force had to retreat, they could often keep most of their guns.
    Yeah, small is relative, and it is relative the guns typically used at the time. Although by caliber, the guns were even smaller than what was used in Napoleonic times. The Swedes appear to have adopted 3-pounder regimental guns, and I believe that a Napoleonic horse artillery gun was typically a 4 or 6 pounder. Nonetheless compared to something like a contemporary 16-pdr culverin, a 3-pdr gun is small.

    Quote Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey View Post
    Gustaf placed his artillery both in separate positions, but also often gave a cannon or two to most infantry positions.

    This was one of the innovations by the Swedish army at the time that made them superior on the battlefield, combined with the new formations that were easier to maneuver and more effective since all men in the formation could use their weapon against the enemy.
    The Dutch had already introduced a 3-pdr cannon for use in a similar role. The Swedes made it even lighter, and used it in larger numbers.


    Quote Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey View Post
    Lutzen would have been less close of a battle if Gustaf ("Gustavus") had not been killed in it; loosing your commanding general is not a good thing for an army...
    Not so sure about that. My understanding is that Gustavus was killed sometime during the climax of the battle -- After the Saxon lines had broken. Certainly, his loss was serious blow to the protestant side. However, the Imperials were learning and developing new tactics themselves. Wallenstein did manage to defeat Gustavus at Alte Veste . . . a detail which seems to generally be overlooked.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Norsesmithy View Post
    That's not why iron cannons explode at all, it has to do with heat retention in the metal, and pourability (and therefore uniformity) when casting. Go back to the time of wrought iron, and it had much to do with the quality of your forge welds on the "staves" of the barrel.
    Yeah. If an iron cannon ball was going to get stuck in an iron cannon, it would probably first be noticed during loading. The windage was pretty large on these cannons, so as long as you are using a properly sized ball, it shouldn't "jam."
    Last edited by fusilier; 2010-08-30 at 10:34 AM.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI

    Quote Originally Posted by fusilier View Post
    Yeah, small is relative, and it is relative the guns typically used at the time. Although by caliber, the guns were even smaller than what was used in Napoleonic times. The Swedes appear to have adopted 3-pounder regimental guns, and I believe that a Napoleonic horse artillery gun was typically a 4 or 6 pounder. Nonetheless compared to something like a contemporary 16-pdr culverin, a 3-pdr gun is small.
    Yes you are right, what we discuss here is physical size and weight, not necessarily caliber; I should have pointed that out.

    Quote Originally Posted by fusilier View Post
    The Dutch had already introduced a 3-pdr cannon for use in a similar role. The Swedes made it even lighter, and used it in larger numbers.
    I think that the difference is that the Swedish army shifted it's entire artillery strategy, at once, while the Dutch added them as "special weapons". I am not very knowledgeable about the Dutch armed forces of the time though.

    Quote Originally Posted by fusilier View Post
    Not so sure about that. My understanding is that Gustavus was killed sometime during the climax of the battle -- After the Saxon lines had broken. Certainly, his loss was serious blow to the protestant side. However, the Imperials were learning and developing new tactics themselves. Wallenstein did manage to defeat Gustavus at Alte Veste . . . a detail which seems to generally be overlooked.
    In the history books I have read, the defeat is not overlooked. It is possible in older works (that tend to sometimes be more into "glorifying" things). A "tactical arms race" had certainly started (as with all major long wars, no matter if it is WWI, WWII, the Napoleon wars or the 30 year or the 100 year war), of course.
    One problem on the Imperial side was that Wallenstein and Tilly did not like each other and Wallenstein in particular fought as much for position as the Emperor's favorite general as for victories on the battlefield itself, while Gustaf ruled more or less supreme on the other side.

    Anyway, the problem was that he died on a scouting mission, far from the main body of the troops (at least relatively speaking) and that meant that whatever decisions he was going to make when coming back to the main force never happened. Plus the whole "OMG the King is DEAD" part. It was certainly a very deep psychological wound, especially since he was rumored to be immortal.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey View Post
    Yes you are right, what we discuss here is physical size and weight, not necessarily caliber; I should have pointed that out.
    Yeah, by overall weight I would suspect you are right. There were even smaller cannons used at the time (all the way down to a robinet), but I don't know if they were used by the Swedish army.



    Quote Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey View Post
    I think that the difference is that the Swedish army shifted it's entire artillery strategy, at once, while the Dutch added them as "special weapons". I am not very knowledgeable about the Dutch armed forces of the time though.


    In the history books I have read, the defeat is not overlooked. It is possible in older works (that tend to sometimes be more into "glorifying" things). A "tactical arms race" had certainly started (as with all major long wars, no matter if it is WWI, WWII, the Napoleon wars or the 30 year or the 100 year war), of course.
    One problem on the Imperial side was that Wallenstein and Tilly did not like each other and Wallenstein in particular fought as much for position as the Emperor's favorite general as for victories on the battlefield itself, while Gustaf ruled more or less supreme on the other side.
    Yes. It is important to realize that tactics had been evolving. What I see Gustaf as doing is more of a continuation of the evolution of the tactics, than a revolution in tactics. That's not to diminish either his contribution or his brilliance as a general, but his reforms can't be looked at in a vacuum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey View Post
    Anyway, the problem was that he died on a scouting mission, far from the main body of the troops (at least relatively speaking) and that meant that whatever decisions he was going to make when coming back to the main force never happened. Plus the whole "OMG the King is DEAD" part. It was certainly a very deep psychological wound, especially since he was rumored to be immortal.
    Yes and no. The rumors that he had died (and there were attempts to keep it secret) certainly had an effect on morale, but the center had already run into trouble. The protestants did rally, and eventually won the battle, which I think is a testament to Gustaf's reforms. His units and subcommanders were able to keep themselves organized. His tactics didn't last much longer, but I think that had just as much to do with the fact that tactics continued to evolve as his untimely death.

  28. - Top - End - #2488
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI

    Q: I'm currently designing a campaign setting based on late heian period japan. I've recently finished with the weapons section, but something about it keeps bugging me. Ive seen in various places (Inuyasha, Sengoku Basara, Warriors Orochi) people of the period using Scythes as weapons (Not Kama, but full-blown scythes). So my question is: Did the ancient japanese have scythes and were they used as weapons, or is this a creation of modern fantasy?
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  29. - Top - End - #2489
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    HalfOrcPirate

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI

    The tools used in Japan probably had much shorter blades than the ones used in Europe (because iron was so damn expensive there). So I don't think Japanese peasants would have tools looking like an European scythe. And if you *intend* to use it as a weapon, it is much more practical to place the blade straight on the shaft (like a naginata).
    Having said that, the weapon closest to a scythe in Japan was probably the rokushakukama - same size of the haft, but a much shorter blade.

  30. - Top - End - #2490
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI

    "Did the ancient japanese have scythes and were they used as weapons, or is this a creation of modern fantasy?"

    Not that I'm aware of, although I could be mistaken.

    The closest that I recall is one of the shinobi clans (probably the Koga) were said to sometimes carry two-handed kama into battle. Mainly as a kind of standard and for intimidation purposes ['Hey: You're fighting frikkin' NINJA!'].

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