[3.5] Getting large size without too much LA

[herrhauptmann]

Hi all,
I'm getting ready to start working on a new character, and I think I'd like to make a psychic warrior, and abuse the crap out of psionic enlargement and psionic lions pounce (or whatever the name is)

For race, either make an Elan, or something with size Large.
I'd like to stay away from powerful build like a goliath, that way I can pick up some Strongarm bracers at a later level for the extra increase.

But what are some good races or templates I can take to get large sized, without too high of a LA?
Halfogre only has a LA of +2.
Halforc with Halfogre template gets extra strength, but no additional wisdom hit. ANd only LA +2
Halfdragon has a LA of +4, which I think is far too high.
WHat else is there?
Most books would be allowed, but no LA buyback. And probably no ACF's will be allowed either. (Depends on who ends up DMing)

Thanks

[Glimbur]

Half Dragon doesn't actually change your size.

There's Half-Minotaur, but no sane DM should allow it. The problem is it includes racial modifiers, and then says to increase stats as though you are increasing a monster from Medium to Large. That's +8 Str, among other things. Just plain silly.

I know of no LA 0 ways to permanently be Large.

[herrhauptmann]

Coulda sworn halfdragon increased your size.... Oh well, that one was never on the table with the high LA.

Is there anything else in the range of LA +1 - +3?

[BobVosh]

Halfdragon has wings if you are large or bigger.

Halfogre has my vote, btw.

[Karsh]

Do you have to BE large, or does Powerful Build work? If it does, make a Goliath from Races of Stone. Otherwise... yeah. Half ogre.

[arguskos]

Do you have to BE large, or does Powerful Build work? If it does, make a Goliath from Races of Stone. Otherwise...

Dude, the OP said he didn't want to be a Goliath.

[herrhauptmann]

I'd like to go for large size, so I can do this route
-Large person: Large weapon
-Strongarm bracer: Huge weapon
-Psionic expansion: Huge person, Gargantuan weapon (this might go several steps, but I don't have XPH or ComPsi handy right now)
-Cleric to use metamagic cheese to give me righteous might: Gargantuan person, colossal weapon.
-Heavy weapon (magic of faerun): Gargantuan person, super Colossal weapon :)

Psionic lion pounce, so I can charge and full attack. :)



edit: If I'm an Elan, I don't think enlarge person can be cast on me. Definitely doesn't work if I'm a half-ogre. And enlarge person doesn't stack with righteous might. But righteous should stack with psionic expansion, because one is a Magical source, and other is Psionic.

[Keld Denar]

Dude, nothing that increases size stacks. If you are already Expanded (the psionic power that increases your size), you can't benefit from Enlarge Person, Righteous Might, Polymorph, or anything else that increases your size. The only way to become collosal if you don't start as a huge creature is Shapechange (9th level spell) and a CL18 Giant Size (Wujen/Heroism Domain spell).

So yea...Gargantuan is still pretty good.

Don't forget, use a Bludgeoning weapon, and have your friendly caster friend cast Greater Mighty Wallop on your weapon. Its in RotDragon. CL20 gives you 5 size increases, but it only works on bludgeoning weapons. Try a Greathorn Minotaur Greathammer (MMIV) as a base weapon!

[taltamir]

Half Dragon doesn't actually change your size.

There's Half-Minotaur, but no sane DM should allow it. The problem is it includes racial modifiers, and then says to increase stats as though you are increasing a monster from Medium to Large. That's +8 Str, among other things. Just plain silly.

I know of no LA 0 ways to permanently be Large.

isn't a minotaur, by definition, a half human - half bull?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

isn't a minotaur, by definition, a half human - half bull?

Yes. Keep in mind that you can make a Half-Fiend Half-Minotaur Half-Elf, apply the Half-Dragon template, then RP can get you the Half-Golem Template. Love poorly-defined races.

Also, keep in mind that Expansion can boost you 2 size categories.

[herrhauptmann]

Dude, nothing that increases size stacks. If you are already Expanded (the psionic power that increases your size), you can't benefit from Enlarge Person, Righteous Might, Polymorph, or anything else that increases your size. The only way to become collosal if you don't start as a huge creature is Shapechange (9th level spell) and a CL18 Giant Size (Wujen/Heroism Domain spell).

So yea...Gargantuan is still pretty good.

Don't forget, use a Bludgeoning weapon, and have your friendly caster friend cast Greater Mighty Wallop on your weapon. Its in RotDragon. CL20 gives you 5 size increases, but it only works on bludgeoning weapons. Try a Greathorn Minotaur Greathammer (MMIV) as a base weapon!

Since enlarge says it doesn't stack with other 'magical' sources, I figured a psionic version would stack. But I guess psionic expansion has some blurb saying it doesn't stack? Or is it just a blanket statement somewhere?

Anyway: If I start at a low level, I'm just going to use a greatclub until I've gotten my strongarm bracers. No point in spending money on a weapon that I'm going to have to trade in after 5 levels. But if I start at mid-high levels, definitely the Minotaur Greathammer (MGH).
I know there's been some discussion on different versions of the MGH, do you know which one is the official version?

[Lycanthromancer]

Yes. Keep in mind that you can make a Half-Fiend Half-Minotaur Half-Elf, apply the Half-Dragon template, then RP can get you the Half-Golem Template. Love poorly-defined races.

Also, keep in mind that Expansion can boost you 2 size categories.

--but not at level 1.

[taltamir]

get a monster progression class... +0 LA adjustment. You start as a "young" monster with 1HD, not fully grown. Size medium or smaller. As you level you MUST take every level in your "monster class", giving you creature abilities, attributes, and HD. Attributes include size. At the end of the progression you are your full size, and can take regular class level.

If your create ages slowly (say, a dragon), your DM will probably have to fudge things, introduce some years of down time, etc... Otherwise, let you take regular class levels BEFORE finishing your racial progression. Alternatively. Buy racial progression as soon as you level. Gaining SOME limited portions of your abilities (spellcasting levels and mental stats). Gain the rest of them when you actually reach the correct age category (physical stats and supernatural abilities).
So, you are basically a very talented (from combat) minotaur / dragon / angel / demon / whatever. For your age... a little gimped from lacking your su and physical abilities. But those will come by themselves with age, for now you get to take levels of regular class... :)

[herrhauptmann]

Also, keep in mind that Expansion can boost you 2 size categories.

At what manifester level do I get that second expansion? Level 11 or so?

[Lycanthromancer]

At what manifester level do I get that second expansion? Level 11 or so?

See for yourself.



















(Btw, it's ML 7...or 6 with Overchannel.)

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I know there's been some discussion on different versions of the MGH, do you know which one is the official version?

There's the Minotaur Greathammer in Races of Stone, which sucks, and the Greathorn Minotaur Greathammer in MM4, which rocks. Both are official, both Exotic.

[daggaz]

Half ogre has a butt load of RHD as well... even for a meleer, its just not worth it for the extra average damage you will eventually get.

It really is far more better to take goliath or half giant for powerful build, and end up with a large size/huge weapon whenever you are in a fight and have 19 or 20 lvls of psychic warrior, instead of 14 or max 16 with a halfogre. Thanks to all his RHD, you will be buying off his first one at ECL12. As well, the goliath is medium sized when he wants to be. Thats a HUGE advantage in all kinds of situations.

"Dammit, that tub-arsed ogre got stuck in a hallway again.. you got another reduce person ready?" "..I used the last charge yesterday." "Oh great, here comes some more monsters.."

[PhoenixRivers]

Expansion works for 2 sizes when you can manifest it at Manifester level 7. Lowest cost method to get that is Psionic Warrior 2 with Practiced Manifester and Overchannel (Talented as well, if you want to avoid damage). You'll be able to Expansion 2 size categories at level 6, and have 4 levels for whatever you want, such as Warblade, etc.

Half Ogre is the lowest LA/ECL Large size template/race in WoTC 3.5 product.

Advantage of Expansion over Enlarge Person? Works on non-humanoids.

[herrhauptmann]

Half ogre has a butt load of RHD as well... even for a meleer, its just not worth it for the extra average damage you will eventually get.

It really is far more better to take goliath or half giant for powerful build, and end up with a large size/huge weapon whenever you are in a fight and have 19 or 20 lvls of psychic warrior, instead of 14 or max 16 with a halfogre. Thanks to all his RHD, you will be buying off his first one at ECL12. As well, the goliath is medium sized when he wants to be. Thats a HUGE advantage in all kinds of situations.

"Dammit, that tub-arsed ogre got stuck in a hallway again.. you got another reduce person ready?" "..I used the last charge yesterday." "Oh great, here comes some more monsters.."

Umm, which version of half-ogre are you looking at? The ones I know are all mere templates of LA+1 or LA+2, with no RHD.
page 38
edit: Anyway, I said I didn't expect to be allowed LA buyoff.

[PhoenixRivers]

Races of Destiny features the Half-Ogre Race. No Racial HD, however.