Can someone explain the chain gate solar method for epic spells?

[Gan The Grey]

If I were a solar, gated in by a wizard, and the wizard said "Serve me for ten days", I would kill him, slow roast him, and hold a ten day banquet in his honor, 'serving' him as the main course to a wide range of planar entities.

And it wouldn't be an evil act because he told me to do it.

[Oslecamo]

Gate used to bring in another creature costs exp.

Solars don't have any extra exp to pay, not being adventurers.

If they do have extra exp, then they're clearly unique NPCs and can't be controled by gate.

So, chain gate doesn't work that way!

This bombo has been busted by yours truly. No need for payment, I do it for the system I love.

[Yuki Akuma]

...and it will serve you for ten days (until those few minutes during which your commands have any power over it pass). Then it will go away. Any magical means of controlling the solar for a longer period of time would have to be used very quickly. Mind Rape trap or something, I don't know

...Okay... Why do you need the solar for more than ten days?

Day 1: You summon a Solar.

Day 2: Solar summons another Solar. You now have two Solars.

Day 3: Both Solars summon a Solar each. You now have four Solars.

Day 4: Eight Solars.

Day 5: Sixteen Solars.

Day 6: Thirty-two Solars.

Day 7: Sixty-four Solars.

Day 8: One hundred and twenty-eight Solars.

Day 9: Two hundred and fifty-six Solars.

Day 10: Solar 1 goes away. Your other remaining Solars summon two hundred and fifty-five Solars, for a total of Five hundred and ten.

Day 11: Solar 2 goes away. Your other remaining solars summon Five hundred and nine more Solars, for a total of one thousand and eighteen.

Day 12: Solars 3 and 4 go away. You now have two thousand and thirty-two Solars.

Day 13: 5, 6, 7 and 8 go away. You have four thousand and fifty-six Solars.

Day 14: 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 and 16 go away. You now have eight thousand and ninety-six Solars.

... And I'm going to stop here, but you can see that "serve me for ten days" doesn't hurt you. You don't need the solars permanently.

[Oslecamo]

Day 1: You summon a Solar.

Day 2: Solar explains that gate calling another creature costs exp, wich he doesn't have. Solar goes away and you just burned 1000 exp for nothing.

There, fixed it for you.

[Ernir]

And doesn't Mind Rape have a casting time of like, an hour? Much longer than the number of rounds your gated creature will remain under your power.

No, just one standard action.

And yes, the most abusive use of the one granted command I can think of is "please fail your next saving throw". Then it's Mindrape time.

If you are playing without the BoVD, you might use Dominate Monster instead, but I wouldn't bother. Even having them around only for a few seconds still gives plenty of room for abuse, you just have to be more creative.

[Starbuck_II]

There, fixed it for you.

Why not just have the Solar Wish for a Candle of Invocation? Remember Spell-like abilities cost no XP.

Now, use the Candle for a gate, repeat.

[BobVosh]

Who said NPCs don't have experience?

Mindrape is one standard as mentioned. Programmed Amnesia is 10 minutes. No clue what the BoED one is.

Anyway:

A task taking up to 1 minute per caster level requires a payment of 100 gp per HD of the creature called. For a task taking up to 1 hour per caster level, the creature requires a payment of 500 gp per HD. A long-term task, one requiring up to one day per caster level, requires a payment of 1,000 gp per HD.

A nonhazardous task requires only half the indicated payment, while an especially hazardous task might require a greater gift. Few if any creatures will accept a task that seems suicidal (remember, a called creature actually dies when it is killed, unlike a summoned creature). However, if the task is strongly aligned with the creature’s ethos, it may halve or even waive the payment.

Casting spells in your sanctum or wherever you live seems very nonhazardous. As for getting the cash it is really easy. Infinite candle of invocation loop to wish for gold. 25,000 per wish. If you can convince the buggers that you have good intentions it could be free. Here being a sorcerer is great for that CHA bump.

[Oslecamo]

Why not just have the Solar Wish for a Candle of Invocation? Remember Spell-like abilities cost no XP.

Now, use the Candle for a gate, repeat.

Because Pun-Pun already done so, and as soon as he/she/it senses anyone trying to pull that kind of cheese again they suffer some kind of horrible demise.

Ernir: I believe the gate spell doesn't allow you to ask the other creature for a clearly suicidical atitude, as shown by the post above. Gate isn't dominate monster. The solar won't do something that will clearly end up with him dead at best or your personal puppet at worst.


BobVosh:If he has experience, then he's an unique NPC, and thus cannot be controled at all by gate.

[Quirp]

You could just forget the Solar and summon a Titan (MM).
They have Gate as a SLA 1/day.
Then you have no problem with missing xp or not prepared spells.
There are Titans of any alignment I think, so you never get problems because of alignment restrictions.

[Oslecamo]

Indeed, the titan is more pratical for this. Stupid SLA rules...

Altough other titants probably wouldn't be very happy knowing that someone was enslaving their bretherns.

[SparkMandriller]

Ernir: I believe the gate spell doesn't allow you to ask the other creature for a clearly suicidical atitude, as shown by the post above. Gate isn't dominate monster. The solar won't do something that will clearly end up with him dead at best or your personal puppet at worst.

Can't see any restrictions in the gate description. Just that you can order it to take "any other actions that can be accomplished within 1 round per caster level". With no agreement or payment necessary. He might be unhappy for the next six seconds, I guess, but he still has to do what you tell him.

[Starbuck_II]

Because Pun-Pun already done so, and as soon as he/she/it senses anyone trying to pull that kind of cheese again they suffer some kind of horrible demise.

Pun-Pun does'nt exist. He is TO, not to be used in actual playing. He is just a thoery. Just like Abiogensis (life coming from non-living).
For life on earth to exist it must be true, but we can't prove it true. Life now needs life to beget life.

[SparkMandriller]

Are you claiming that using SLA wish to create candles of invocation for free isn't just theoretical?

[Oslecamo]

Pun-Pun does'nt exist. He is TO, not to be used in actual playing. He is just a thoery. Just like Abiogensis (life coming from non-living).
For life on earth to exist it must be true, but we can't prove it true. Life now needs life to beget life.

Luckily in the D&D world, there's this superior intelegent designer called DM, who indeed created existence and may or may have not spawned Pun-Pun. His state of existance is determined when the players try out to candle-chain.


But what I meant to say it's that if players start candle-chaining, then it's free game for everybody in the campaign world. Do you really want to fight a BBEG and his minions who all candle-chained?



SparkMandriller:It still assumes wich you can willingly fail harmfull saving throws, wich I don't remember seeing on the rules. Care to point the page where it says that?

[SparkMandriller]

PHB 177.

Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw: A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell's result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic (for example, an elf's resistance to sleep effects) can suppress this quality.


Be pretty silly if everyone had to take will saves to resist healing whenever the cleric busted out the cure light wounds, wouldn't it?

[Ernir]

Ernir: I believe the gate spell doesn't allow you to ask the other creature for a clearly suicidical atitude, as shown by the post above. Gate isn't dominate monster. The solar won't do something that will clearly end up with him dead at best or your personal puppet at worst.

Actually... I see no such restriction.

A controlled creature can be commanded to perform a service for you. Such services fall into two categories: immediate tasks and contractual service. Fighting for you in a single battle or taking any other actions that can be accomplished within 1 round per caster level counts as an immediate task; you need not make any agreement or pay any reward for the creature’s help.

Looks to me like there would be no option but to obey the command of "I require the corpse of an outsider for my latest necromancy experiments. Please spend the next 20 rounds full attacking yourself so I may have yours."

But. RAW or not, I see your point about it being odd that the Gate spell serves as a rounds/level Dominate spell.
(Un?)Fortunately, you can still just Mindrape the poor thing normally. It only has a +20 on its Will save.

[Starbuck_II]

Are you claiming that using SLA wish to create candles of invocation for free isn't just theoretical?

Pun-Pun requires multiple books, Chain wishing requires Core books (PH, MM, and DMG)

[sonofzeal]

Pun-Pun requires multiple books, Chain wishing requires Core books (PH, MM, and DMG)

That doesn't answer the question he was asking, you know. You can be "theoretical" within Core just fine.

[Starbuck_II]

The developers made the Candles and Solars with a SLA wish for a reason.
I'm sure they made it to be combined.

[MickJay]

description of the process.

No, see, none of these solars is going to stick there for more than a few minutes, unless you "pay" them extra. They will start serving you "for 10 days", but once the few minutes pass, your order will lose its power, and the solar will cease to serve you and simply go away. Unless it decides that you actually wanted to be served as a dish, then it might just do what Gan the Grey described. It's a bit like with Wish, you can't use Wish to get more Wishes (unless you want to be screwed over by the DM/forces of cosmic balance).

The developers made the Candles and Solars with a SLA wish for a reason.
I'm sure they made it to be combined.

Any DM with a grain of reason can find a dozen different ways in which any attempt to (ab)use such combination ends very badly for the mage/wisher, all perfectly RAW (and even more RAI).

[Yuki Akuma]

No, see, none of these solars is going to stick there for more than a few minutes, unless you "pay" them extra. They will start serving you "for 10 days", but once the few minutes pass, your order will lose its power, and the solar will cease to serve you and simply go away. Unless it decides that you actually wanted to be served as a dish, then it might just do what Gan the Grey described. It's a bit like with Wish, you can't use Wish to get more Wishes (unless you want to be screwed over by the DM/forces of cosmic balance).

Please show me the part of the Gate spell description that says you cannot choose "be my servant for the next ten days" as a contractual service.

[SparkMandriller]

The developers made the Candles and Solars with a SLA wish for a reason.
I'm sure they made it to be combined.

Do you combine them much in actual play? Because somehow I suspect you don't.

In fact, I suspect very few people do.

[MickJay]

Please show me the part of the Gate spell description that says you cannot choose "be my servant for the next ten days" as a contractual service.

From the description of the spell:

A controlled creature can be commanded to perform a service for you. Such services fall into two categories: immediate tasks and contractual service. Fighting for you in a single battle or taking any other actions that can be accomplished within 1 round per caster level counts as an immediate task; you need not make any agreement or pay any reward for the creature’s help. The creature departs at the end of the spell.

If you choose to exact a longer or more involved form of service from a called creature, you must offer some fair trade in return for that service.

Therefore you can choose 10-day service as contractual service, but you need to pay for it; if the cost of 1 round/CL is one 9th level spell slot +1000XP (original casting), I'd (hypothetically) demand an equivalent of 20 9th level spell slots + 20000XP per hour of service from a lev. 18 mage, slightly less for higher level mages.

There are more problems with creating the chain, but let's stick with the first problem for now.

[Starbuck_II]

I haven't got that high of level yet or right alignment (since Candle only goes by alignment).

[SparkMandriller]

Let us know how your DM responds when you do try it then, wouldja?