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Thread: Aspect of Graz'zt [3.5]
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2009-10-03, 07:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Aspect of Graz'zt [3.5]
Graz'zt is a busy demon prince, constantly vying for control of the Abyss against Orcus and Demogorgon, as well as dealing with the occasional threat from Malcanthet, Iggwilv, and even his own son, Athux. Still, he likes to find time to visit his mortal cults and engage in licentious liaisons with the worshippers therein. It makes them feel appreciated, and helps him to relax after a long day of conquest and intrigue. To this end, he sends his Aspects to the mortal realm, with which he has a perfect sensory connection with. They sow oats and destruction in equal measure, and the true Dark Prince is free to continue plotting his ultimate victory over demonkind.
Aspect of Graz'zt
Medium Outsider (Extraplanar, Evil, Chaotic, Tanar'ri)
HD 9d8+36 (76hp)
Speed 40 ft. (8 squares)
Init: +7
AC 26; touch 21; flat-footed 23
(+3 Dex, +8 Profane, +5 Natural)
BAB +9; Grp +13
Attack Bastard Sword +18 (1d10+13) [19-20/x2]
Full-Attack Bastard Sword +18/+13 (1d10/+13) [19-20/x2]
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Special Attacks Maneuvers, Spell-like Abilities
Special Qualities DR 5/Cold Iron and Good, Darkvision 60ft, immunity to electricity and poison, resistance to acid, cold, and fire 10, telepathy 100ft, Mutable Form, Divine Grace of the Dark Prince
Saves Fort +15 Ref +15 Will +15
Abilities Str 18, Dex 16, Con 18, Int 18, Wis 16, Cha 28
Skills Concentration +17, Bluff +21, Diplomacy +21, Escape Artist +16, Hide +16, Intimidate +21, Knowledge (The Planes) +17, Listen +16, Move Silently +16, Sense Motive +16, Spot +16, Tumble +16
Feats Power Attack, Improved Initiative, Extra Granted Maneuver, Dodgeb, Mobilityb, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword)b, Elusive Target
Environment The Infinite Layers of the Abyss (Azzagrat, Layers 45,46,47)
Challenge Rating 9
Treasure None
Alignment Chaotic Evil
Maneuvers: An Aspect of Graz'zt is a 5th level Initiator. The Aspect is created with 5 Maneuvers known (one 3rd level, two 2nd level, and two 1st level) and 2 Stances (that can be of 1st or 3rd level) known from the Shadow Hand, Iron Heart, or Dread Crown disciplines, all of which are readied. The Aspect is granted and recovers maneuvers as a Crusader, but he may choose which maneuvers to be granted each time he is granted one (they are not chosen randomly).
Typical choices are Strength Draining Strike, Slip Into Shadows, Disarming Strike, Savage Slash, and Steel Wind with the Child of Shadow and Assassin's Stance stances.
Spell-like Abilities: An Aspect of Graz'zt's spell-like abilities have a caster level of 5, and the DCs are Charisma-based.
At-will - Undetectable Alignment, Scare
3/day - Charm Person, Invisibility, Mirror Image
1/day - Keen Edge, Desecrate
Mutable Form (Su): An Aspect of Graz'zt has a good deal of control over the physical aspects of its form. Changing is a standard action. It can alter its size one category up or down (this does not further alter its ability scores). It can assume the form of any humanoid, monstrous humanoid, or outsider from Small or Large size, though it gains only its size, appearance, natural weapons, speed, and a fly, climb, or swim speed if it has one. It can grow wings or fins to grant itself a 60 foot fly or swim speed.
Divine Grace of the Dark Prince (Su): An Aspect of Graz'zt still harbors a spark of its true form's power. It uses its Charisma modifier in place of Strength, Constitution, Dexterity, and Wisdom to determine attack and damage bonuses, and ability modifier for saving throws. It gains a Profane bonus to its Armor Class equal to its Charisma modifier.Last edited by Xefas; 2009-10-03 at 10:55 PM.
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2009-10-03, 07:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2008
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- Broken Damaged Worthless
Re: Aspect of Graz'zt [3.5]
So. Yeah. Good job, making an Aspect of my favorite Demon Prince. Now, all we need is a good update of the true man himself and perhaps of Iggwilv, and we're all set.
All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.
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2009-10-03, 08:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Aspect of Graz'zt [3.5]
Yeah, he's my favorite Demon Prince as well. I've always be a little disappointed with the portrayals of Demon Princes, Archdevils, Celestial Paragons and...hell, any really big powerful monster. They tend to end up just being a big pile of hit dice with spellcasting attached, rather than having genuinely unique or thematic capabilities. Aspects tend to be even more pathetically generic.
So, I'm doing my part, here and there...
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2009-10-03, 08:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2008
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Re: Aspect of Graz'zt [3.5]
Really man. RSS. Think about it.
As for your point, yeah, I actually really agree. Aspects, Demon Princes, Archdevils, Celestial Lords, Gods, they all really SUCK in 3.5. Between you, Afroakuma, and Amiel, I think we've got everything covered though.
All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.
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2009-10-03, 10:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Aspect of Graz'zt [3.5]
So I heard you like ass-kicking versions of Demiurges...
Originally Posted by Fafnir 300SpoilerMy Characters
According to this test, I am a LN Half-Orc Cleric, Lvl.2.
"And in the layer of the Deep Ones, we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever." - H.P. Lovecraft
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2009-10-03, 10:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Aspect of Graz'zt [3.5]
Yeah, I've seen the Dicefreaks stuff before. Unfortunately, their creations are generally too high CR to use in a common game. Even a CR 22 Graz'zt has to be worked towards pretty heavily for a game starting at mid or low levels. CR 70? Its nice, in theory, but I doubt heavily I'd ever be able to use it in practice.
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2009-10-03, 11:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Aspect of Graz'zt [3.5]
Emmm... dude. It's a demon prince. Like, the closest thing to a god you can be without being a god (and sometimes more powerful than gods, in the case of guys like Asmodeus- technically an archdevil, but oh well.) CR 70 might be a tad high, but CR 22... that's none too difficult. Any decent wizard of high level could take your average CR 22 down pretty efficiently.
Last edited by Gorgondantess; 2009-10-03 at 11:11 PM.
Marceline Abadeer by Gnomish Wanderer
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2009-10-03, 11:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Aspect of Graz'zt [3.5]
The trick is to make them tough, iconic, and at the same time usable in a game. This means they have to feel strong enough that no Balor would ever (successfully) oppose them, have powers along the theme of their demonic portfolio, and at the same time be of a CR a non-epic party could actually fight them and win because the heroes always win in the end. Few games ever go epic and the demon princes are supposed to be at the highest end of what a hero can fight (rather like a great wyrm red dragon). So while a CR 70 demon prince might catch that power, a CR 22 one is more useful in most games. If you have a Lv 70 game okay, but those are even rarer than Lv 20 (and I've been in one which went from 12-20 most of mine end around 8-9 tops). So I like seeing a CR 20s demon lord, especially if it feels powerful and unique.
Edit: With heavy optimizers this might should be increased a fair bit to I don't know never actually seen those.Last edited by Zaydos; 2009-10-03 at 11:25 PM.
Peanut Half-Dragon Necromancer by Kurien.
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2009-10-04, 12:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Aspect of Graz'zt [3.5]
I see your point, and respectfully disagree with it.
For one, a decent high level wizard might be able to take a CR 22 Demon Prince down pretty efficiently (given that the Demon Prince is encountered alone with no high level casters of his own to back him up). But a decent high level barbarian could not. That's more a problem with wizards being able to take on challenges far above their level than Demon Princes not being strong enough (and the general imbalance of power in D&D as a whole).
For two, your point seems to rely heavily on the idea that high level characters are common and not all that impressive. If you're level 20, you're close to the power of a Demon Prince. And? You should be. If you chose a decent class, you're achieving godlike things on a regular basis.
If you want Demon Princes to be so powerful and amazing that players are incapable of challenging them, then keep their level down to 5 or 6. They're exceptional to the point of being inhuman, and yet cosmic monstrosities (in the 20+ CR range) are out of their league. This is just a matter of scale.
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2009-10-04, 12:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Aspect of Graz'zt [3.5]
Marceline Abadeer by Gnomish Wanderer
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2009-10-04, 03:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Aspect of Graz'zt [3.5]
To be fair, there's a pretty good chance that at least some high-level characters have risen before since the dawn of the multiverse, and if you want a Demon Prince to have survived all of the high-level parties, all of the backstabbing high-CR demons, all of the Blood War skirmishes, etc. you'd probably want to put them in the mid-to-high 20s. Low 20s, below 23-ish, are still within "hard, but manageable, boss fight" for 20th level characters, and Demon Princes should honestly be a bit more powerful and memorable than that; while CR 70+ isn't usable in 99% of real games, I do think upping them to around 26-27 would be appropriate.
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2009-10-04, 04:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Aspect of Graz'zt [3.5]
I think demon princes with CR 22 or 23 are totaly justified.
If the CR system would work, a 4 character group of 20th level would have a similar power to 4 balors. And these guys are supposed to be the most poweful thing short of unique outsiders.
In my view, demon princes are not supposed to be brawlers who can handle any threat themselves, but overlords who command hordes of tens of thousands of fiends and who have the powers of a demi-god within their own realms. Either 4 balors or four PCs could probably kill them, if they can trap them outside their realms and cut off from their armies. That's okay, but that's not how it would usually happen. They would stay in their castles surrounded by armies of demons, pushing the Encounter Level far above their own CR.
Of course, all assuming that no mortal has ever reached 21st level.
Also, that CR 70 monstocity has a far too complex stat block to be handled in a fight. I would not want to bother with that many abilities.Last edited by Yora; 2009-10-04 at 04:46 AM.
We are not standing on the shoulders of giants, but on very tall tower of other dwarves.
Spriggan's Den Heroic Fantasy Roleplaying
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2009-10-04, 11:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Aspect of Graz'zt [3.5]
Perhaps, then, that the Demon Prince should have a 22-23 CR outside of their own realm (and thus a manageable fight for a group of level 20 PCs), but a CR of 27-28 in their own realm, taking it out of their reach? Add in some other demons likely to be with the Demon Prince (such as Graz'zt's two Maraliths bodyguards with class levels, Unhath and Reluhantis), and you can push the CR of a fight in their realm up to 30+ easily, which would require epic levels.
Does this seem like a sensible solution?
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2009-10-04, 01:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Aspect of Graz'zt [3.5]
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2009-10-05, 03:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Aspect of Graz'zt [3.5]
Most real world politicians would be only 3rd or 4th level experts under d20 rules. Still you don't see special forces teams assassinating hostile leaders. (And not for not trying.)
Don't underestimate the protection offered by good defences and loyal minions.We are not standing on the shoulders of giants, but on very tall tower of other dwarves.
Spriggan's Den Heroic Fantasy Roleplaying
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2009-10-05, 08:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Aspect of Graz'zt [3.5]
This is true; however, special forces people are also less than ~6th level--a terrorist organization can't scry-n-die the President, there's no protection from Russians spell that'll spoil a lot of the Premier's security (amusing as that would be), and so forth.
The higher level everyone gets, the higher the level ratio needs to be to ensure protection; below 5th level you can be about the same level and be protect-able, but by the time you hit 20th there are so many effects and so many counters to them (and counter-counters, and counter-counter-counters....) that that just isn't sufficient. When even the faceless mooks have vorpal weaponry and can toss around blasphemy and teleport at will, you really need a 7-8 level buffer to prevent bazillions of terrible things from happening to you.Last edited by PairO'Dice Lost; 2009-10-05 at 08:26 AM.
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2009-10-05, 08:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Aspect of Graz'zt [3.5]
I dunno, I've always enjoyed the idea that mortals, no matter how powerful, are still lightweights compared to cosmic powers like the Demon Princes, Archdevils, and Gods. If mortal power is weighed on a scale, it balances against 10-lb weights. Princes and Archdevils weigh against low to mid 100s, and Gods top the scale at high 100s. This way, yes, a VERY powerful elite group of mortals with a plan, sufficient luck, and some other tricks can maybe take a mid-range Prince, like, say, Obox-ob or Baphomet. Graz'zt, who controls three layers? Orcus, who was a god? Demogorgon, who is the most powerful Prince of all these days? Yeaaaaaah, you're gonna need more than just luck and skill. You'll need NUMBERS to take one of them.
It's like the difference between Bel and Asmodeus. Yes, they're both archdevils, but there's a world of difference there.
Then again, this is just how I see it. Take or leave as you will.
All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.