Toning it down: hiding optimization

[Sploosh]

I am in a group of 5, two who DM swap campaigns and two fellow players. We are all close, but we have a polar opposite playstyles. I am a diehard optimizer (who still loves to roleplay) while they are clerics who prepare nothing but cure moderates and wizards who spam fireballs.

I didn't think this was a huge problem, and had a philosophy of "You do it your way and I'll do it my way" until my DM dropped a CR 18 on my solo character's ass (level 11) and one shotted me before I could do anything.
He then told me that he simply wanted to give me a taste of my own medicine.

I was a little upset, but it spurred a few confessions from the others stating they were not enjoying my character hogging the combat spotlight with my high rolls and whatnot. It led me to try and make a compromise.

I want to be a God wizard because that way I am more of a sidekick (one who does 90% of the work) but I can appear in the background. That way they dont feel useless.

I also considered the idea of a Bard or druid but I am afraid of playing a bard because I always hear how gimp they are, and I dont think I could make a druid appear even midly weak if I tried.

Are there any suggestions for being strong without appearing overtly strong or any other class suggestions? Could a Beguiler work? They liked my friend's Factotum.

[Chrono22]

I toss in a vote for beguiler.
Although they have many advantages, their limited spell selection makes them one of the most balanced mage classes in the game.

[Milskidasith]

Leave the group. If they're going to kill you off in one shot because you build a strong character, without discussing it with you beforehand, and call that even remotely the same thing as optimizing, then just leave and find a group that has a good DM.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Bards are only gimped in core.

*Casts Summon Keld Denar*

[Eldariel]

Wizard seems perfect. Logic Ninja's guide deals with exactly the kind of Wizard that would fit the party perfectly.

[Saintjebus]

While I don't agree with Milskidasith that you should leave the group for this, they did not handle this well at all, either. They should have taken it up with you first. However, that being said, try talking with them. See what kind of party member they would like. I'm not saying let them build your character, but communicating.

[Darcand]

I vote bard!

[Foryn Gilnith]

QFT, even before bard-man arrives. You can make an awesome bard if sources like Dungeonscape are allowed (though that specific book has nothing for them). It won't set off immediate alarm bells because bards are known to be support characters, and have a bit of a gimp reputation. And your killing power will be mostly supportive.

[Lapak]

I also considered the idea of a Bard or druid but I am afraid of playing a bard because I always hear how gimp they are, and I dont think I could make a druid appear even midly weak if I tried.

Based on this alone? Play a bard. For one thing, a lot of their best talents revolve around making other people better, which will take some of the spotlight off you; for another, it will provide an interesting challenge for you if you feel that they are harder to optimize. Everyone wins.

[Paulus]

I am in a group of 5, two who DM swap campaigns and two fellow players. We are all close, but we have a polar opposite playstyles. I am a diehard optimizer (who still loves to roleplay) while they are clerics who prepare nothing but cure moderates and wizards who spam fireballs.

I didn't think this was a huge problem, and had a philosophy of "You do it your way and I'll do it my way" until my DM dropped a CR 18 on my solo character's ass (level 11) and one shotted me before I could do anything.
He then told me that he simply wanted to give me a taste of my own medicine.

I was a little upset, but it spurred a few confessions from the others stating they were not enjoying my character hogging the combat spotlight with my high rolls and whatnot. It led me to try and make a compromise.

I want to be a God wizard because that way I am more of a sidekick (one who does 90% of the work) but I can appear in the background. That way they dont feel useless.

I also considered the idea of a Bard or druid but I am afraid of playing a bard because I always hear how gimp they are, and I dont think I could make a druid appear even midly weak if I tried.

Are there any suggestions for being strong without appearing overtly strong or any other class suggestions? Could a Beguiler work? They liked my friend's Factotum.

Certainly. Optimize all you like, even as far as your previous character.. then use none of it's stronger combo's until their fat is in the fire. Then when you pull them out with it, they'll thank you, and since you aren't hogging the spot light in combat or otherwise, yet have all that power... there is your roleplay. "I, am not left handed." or "I don't like using guns... bad things happen when I use guns." etc.

Edit: also, if no one else optimizes, it won't matter how gimped you are. Things will work out, group effort! Have fun!

[JellyPooga]

Bards are awesome. If you're leery of playing one because you feel you'll struggle to contribute meaningfully, a Rogue can fill a nice 'background' role whilst still giving a meaningful contibution; let the others deal with the combat, whilst you do the other stuff.

It seems like they don't want too much competition for the limelight, so find a niche that they don't fill and fill it. That way, any limelight you take will be doing stuff they can't.

[Korivan]

You can always go the buff addiction route (if possible). This is where you buff the heck out of the players so much that they come to depend on it. Though this isn't just buffs. Really anything that makes the situation easier for them. Soon, if you play your cards right, they'll come to depend on you.

There's also the utility. This is where you become the guy Mass Shrinking them and 'Porting them around. Ya, the Utility Mage will make you feel like a cheap lockpick/taxi/etc, you become a valuble member of the party...sorta.

Or you can simply tell them that Wizards are powerhouses, ban them if ya can't deal with it. Oh, and clerics when played right only use healing when the crap hits the fan. Otherwise, they whip up a melstrom of coolness all on their own.

[Broccoli21]

I vote cleric. they'll be thankful for the healing and buffing, and if you want to, use persistent spell+divine metamagic to buff them all day. you can also be a melee powerhouse. just don't make yourself cleric-zilla

[averagejoe]

Man, when I read this title I thought it would be a question on how to make the most effective use of the hide skill.

This is actually something I've been thinking about for myself. My idea was to make clericzilla, but then not play it as clericzilla unless the situation warrants. Get DMM quicken, but then don't cast things like divine power unless the party is really in trouble. I dunno if that would bug your group (or you), but it seems like it could be an interesting role play. I'm going to try it out, anyways, when I get the opportunity.

[KellKheraptis]

While I agree with playing a GOD wizard from the backlight (War Weaver in particular shines in this role), if a DM ever pulled that crap with me, he'd be picking up more than his dice off the table. That is a low-down, immature trick. Those are the DM's that get full Pun-pun curbstomp treatment followed by a swift epithet and if need be a swift kick for emphasis. GRRRR!!!

[Raiki]

I actually ran into this problem myself in one of my previous games. I was, of course, the wizard (since few other classes really HAVE this problem) and the party got a bit upset about a combat against a nigh-unto-army of blackguards and assassins that I just *happened* to be able to take out with one Chained Mass Flesh to Salt + Whirlwind combo. Since that battle, the character has taken a backseat role in combat (Wall of force, mass flight, transmute stone to lava, et cetera) until things got really grim...THAT is when he pulled out the Quickened, Chained, Twinned, Maximized, Heightened Disintigrate spell that ended the fight. (Using the Metamagic Cradle feat and a goodly portion of his daily spell slots...)

Anyway...just try to help the rest of the party out a bit...it can be just as fun, and helps you in the long run too (in AND out of character).

~R~

[Indon]

Bards are only gimped in core.

Not even this. Bards just aren't as powerful as optimized full casters in core.

In that group, that doesn't seem like it'll be any concern.

The Bard functions as a group face (but since you're the Bard, your group members should expect that of you) and secondary skill monkey, and does group support excellently.

In core.

[Deastorm]

I had a group I ran with, and I made a drow wizard. Not very optimized, was an enchanter/controller type, but very rude to the other party members, but in an absentminded way. To the dwarven warrior/former slave, "I used to have a slave that made the most remarkable breadsticks, did your masters teach you anything useful?" I had fun with it, and he was a braggart about magic, but never actually stole the spotlight. Just claimed a bunch of nonsense. (The psion gnome actually did all the overpowered stuff, but he was quiet about it)

Anyway, because the player that found my style abhorrant happened to be the DM's girlfriend, (who also happens to hate me as a person) my drow (level 7 wizard) was jumped by two level 18 drow warriors. I managed to kill one and incapacitate the other, before a 19th level psion matron shows up, incapacitates me, and basically makes me an NPC.

I was asked if I wanted to be a DM tool in the party, or make a new character. As I had no intention of not getting to actually play (I usually DMed for this lot), I made a new toon. A bard.

He was polite, and nice. Very nice. Vow of Peace nice. I scavenged these and other boards, and made him give +9/+9 to all his Inspire Courage, and a diplomancer, I think it was upwards of +45 for a 9th level character. We could no longer fight anything sentient, as I would talk them out of being evil. Anything we did fight, we killed in a few rounds, since even the helplessly built rogue was now a murder machine. The DM ran exactly 3 sessions of this before he kinda gave up, and didn't know what to do anymore.

I don't play with this group anymore, for similar reasons, and many more.

So, tl;dr? Yea, bards can be good.

[Keld Denar]

Yea, just go Bard and optimize Inspire Courage. You're group will all feel all manly and stuff cause they can power attack stuff and stuff, and it'll be ok.

[Flickerdart]

[QUOTE=Deastorm;7057373"I used to have a slave that made the most remarkable breadsticks, did your masters teach you anything useful?"[/QUOTE]
That's hilarious! I have no idea why your DM didn't like you.

[Temet Nosce]

Leave the group. If they're going to kill you off in one shot because you build a strong character, without discussing it with you beforehand, and call that even remotely the same thing as optimizing, then just leave and find a group that has a good DM.

This. I understand the feelings of the person who suggested physical or in game violence, but bluntly it's not gonna help. It's already been made clear that this is someone you do not want to game with. Leave.

[sadi]

I'm playing in a game where no one optimizes, so knowing this i intentionally took the path to arcane heirophant, we also have a sorcerer who believes in direct damage only. The party cleric just got himself arrested for deciding to be an arsonist, so he's making a new character since the party paladin already said he has a better chance of dying than rejoining the party. We have one incompetent rogue who has negative spot and listen checks and no one in the party has a spot score higher than 2 besides me. So we have huge holes and the rogue tells the now characterless cleric he should play a wizard. This is the point I've realized I'm in a non optimizing group where only direct damage matters for competence.

Note the sorcerer already saved the rogues life with a useful casting of ray of enfeeblement, and I've saved several lives with grease/entangle. Note that besides the fact the rogue fails at life as a skill monkey, he insists on causing some sort of ruckus everytime we get to any town, ruckus that should end up with him being arrested, but the dm has no balls to do it.

tl:dr Some groups just have a very different flavor, accept it and go with it, or move on.

[sonofzeal]

Not even this. Bards just aren't as powerful as optimized full casters in core.

In that group, that doesn't seem like it'll be any concern.

The Bard functions as a group face (but since you're the Bard, your group members should expect that of you) and secondary skill monkey, and does group support excellently.

In core.

I disagree. I mean, yes they can do group face, and yes they can do skillmonkey, and yes they have some group support. But Rogue can do just as well for Face (almost better, since Bards don't get Intimidate and Rogues can UMD Glibness), and certainly make better skillmonkeys.

The Bard class features are rather shoddy in core. The bonuses from Inspire Courage are nominal at best, hardly worth the combat actions unless you're picking up Dragonfire Inspiration from out of Core. The spell list helps a little, but is hampered by ridiculously few spellslots and bad spell level progressions, meaning their DCs suck and you're much less likely to have what you need when you need it. It's better than no spellcasting, but worst than having class features that are actually functional.

Basically, it's a jack-of-all-trades class who, in Core, generally fails pathetically in combat, can't buff nearly enough to make a significant difference, and doesn't (imo) get nearly enough spellcasting to justify his existence. Of the core Bard spell list, the vast majority are things other spellcasters can do earlier, more often, with higher DCs, more opportunity for metamagic, and with far more alternatives. Looking at the max level Bard spells, there's only a single one that Bards get before other casters and only because it's unique, and it isn't even all that useful what with a 10 minute casting time and basically replicating something Wizards could do more often five levels ago as a standard action with far fewer restrictions. By that level, the amount of gold for a Rogue to UMD the far, far superior Wizard version is basically pocket change, and the Bard spell is so horribly situational that I can't imagine it being used more than once or twice in a normal campaign, if that.

The Core Bard never going to hold his own in combat (Inspire Courage doesn't even compensate for his mediocre BAB), and can't take a hit (light armor and d6 hitdice and no combat-focused class features make for a very suicidal combatant). I've played a lot of Core games, and I've seen a lot of Core bards, and my experience is that they generally launch a nominal Inspire Courage in the first round and then proceed to fail even harder than Monks.

Social interaction is really their strong point in Core, but is hampered by the fact that, aside from Glibness, they really have no advantage (and a few disadvantages) over a social Rogue. Anyway, social interaction in D&D usually rides heavily on the ability of the player to actually speak convincingly, something no class helps with. It's important to have a party face, but a high Charisma and a few ranks in Diplomacy don't generally cut it in most games I've been in, except to claim "dibs" over the rest of the players. I'm sure there's games where a Diplomacy roll is king, but that's been rare in my experience.



....that said, outside of Core it's not too hard to make Bards ridiculously broken. Song of the Heart + Masterwork Instrument + Regalia of the Hero + Word of Creation (+ Dragonfire Inspiration)? Yeah, a properly spec'd Bard out of Core can be powerful, and make the rest of the party absolutely lethal. Their spell options improve dramatically, they get some interesting and useful class features, they get some really powerful PrC options, and they're generally much more flexible and useful. Actually, you almost get the opposite problem - an optimized Bard can be darn closed to overpowered, and the single most broken character I've ever actually played used Bard as a major component (along with Marshal and Divine Mind). Bards are a delicate balancing act between "suck" and "omghax", and while there's a few who walk that line well (here's to you Zohra), it's a hard line to walk and I'd call Bards probably the most "imbalanced" class in the game, in the sense that their middle ground is one of the hardest to find.

[Riffington]

Why not play something that you know is underpowered? Something that's fun but genuinely as weak or weaker than everyone else? Just try an arcane trickster, mystic theurge, or ranger/rogue/shadowdancer? If you prove you can have fun with them without being in the most powerful half of the group, it'll be easier to get along in the future.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Play a S&B fighter for a few sessions?

[The Glyphstone]

Play a Dwarf Commoner who dual-wields Dwarven Waraxes while non-proficient with them, and use maximal Improved Combat and Power Attack on every swing. At level 11, you can have a -32/-36 to-hit. Then demand that your DM give you another taste of your own medicine and supply enemies equally weak for the party to fight, so that they can feel powerful again.

[Siosilvar]

Play a Dwarf Commoner who dual-wields Dwarven Waraxes while non-proficient with them, and use maximal Improved Combat and Power Attack on every swing. At level 11, you can have a -32/-36 to-hit. Then demand that your DM give you another taste of your own medicine and supply enemies equally weak for the party to fight, so that they can feel powerful again.

How are you managing -32/-36? Your BAB is 5, you can only ICE or Power Attack for 5 points.

A fighter, though, could get -26/-31/-36/-30 with a pair of Large kama (which are one-handed weapons).

Attacks (before all penalties): +11/6/1 main hand, +11 off hand
-6 main hand, -10 off hand: TWF one-handed no feats (+5/0/-5, +1)
-4: nonproficient with kama (+1/-4/-9, -3)
-2: Large-sized weapon (-1/-6/-11, -5)
-11: Improved Combat Expertise (-12/-17/-22, -16)
-11: Power Attack (-23/-28/-33, -27)
+1: Strength (req'd for Power Attack) (-22/-27/-32, -26)
-4: Fighting Defensively (-26/-31/-36, -30)

-2: Noncombatant Flaw (-28/-33/-38, -32)

[quillbreaker]

Ah, that most common killer of 3.5 D&D tabletop games. Knowledge. The more you know about the system, the more powerful you are, the less necessary the other characters are. The other players go through a couple of sessions of being ineffectual, then get bored of being upstaged and quit coming. Most 3.5 games which I've seen end, have ended because of this.

I dodged the problem by quitting playing 3.5. I wish, given all of the core material and neat worlds to play in, that there was a good way to fix it. I don't think there is. The system is byzantine and infinitely exploitable, and if everyone isn't on the same page it is very, very hard to keep the game on an even keel. More trouble than it's worth, I think. It was apparently more trouble than it was worth for your DM to treat you fairly.

Given that you don't want to stop marginalizing everyone else, and only want to give up the *appearance* of marginalizing everyone else, I imagine things are only going to get worse.

[The Glyphstone]

How are you managing -32/-36? Your BAB is 5, you can only ICE or Power Attack for 5 points.

A fighter, though, could get -26/-31/-36/-30 with a pair of Large kama (which are one-handed weapons).

Attacks (before all penalties): +11/6/1 main hand, +11 off hand
-6 main hand, -10 off hand: TWF one-handed no feats (+5/0/-5, +1)
-4: nonproficient with kama (+1/-4/-9, -3)
-2: Large-sized weapon (-1/-6/-11, -5)
-11: Improved Combat Expertise (-12/-17/-22, -16)
-11: Power Attack (-23/-28/-33, -27)
+1: Strength (req'd for Power Attack) (-22/-27/-32, -26)
-4: Fighting Defensively (-26/-31/-36, -30)

-2: Noncombatant Flaw (-28/-33/-38, -32)

Whoopsies. Blame my being tired, I somehow was giving Commoners full BAB.

[Zovc]

I've never read the Artificer, but isn't he all about putting spells in items? If he is, just put spells in party members' items instead of putting everything in yours.

Seems like it works to me, you get to optimize as much as you want and everyone benefits.

Then again, I've never read the class.