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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    PairO'Dice Lost's Avatar

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    Default Re: Toning it down: hiding optimization

    Quote Originally Posted by Tackyhillbillu
    This is something for another thread, but frankly, I disagree with the notion that "Options are fun."

    That's my problem with the Wizard as a whole. He replaces every single class in the game, given a few levels and some gold. Rather then just having an infinite number options, I actually prefer having a very limited toolset, ala Melee (with the exception of ToB, which I like because they are the best made WoTC base class.)

    Your Sword and Board Fighter sounds way more fun then the Wizard. You have to think about how you use the very limited mechanics availible to you to achieve victory, and are forced to rely on your Party Members effort. The Wizard just picks the assorted set of "I Win" buttons, and that's that.

    Options can be fun, but not when they allow you to obliterate the need for other players to even sit at the table.
    That's not a problem with options, that's a problem caused by the fact that one of a wizard's many options is generally superior to any of a martial character's options. If you play a themed wizard such as a pyro blaster, a zombie necromancer, etc. you also have a limited toolset--yet even when the number of options is comparable, the wizard can still come out ahead if the options are just better.

    Ideally OPTIONSfighter * POWERfighter options = OPTIONSwizard * POWERwizard options, but in practice it turns out that generally OPTIONSfighter * POWERfighter options << OPTIONSwizard * POWERwizard options; however, in either case, having more options is better than having fewer.
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  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: Toning it down: hiding optimization

    Quote Originally Posted by Tackyhillbillu View Post
    And SonofZeal, frankly, yes. If the only way you will play is to make the rest of your friends feel completely unneeded, then yeah, you probably shouldn't play with them.
    Hardly anybody's like that, and yeah I wouldn't want to play with them either. Optimization is more like what you talk about later, taking a concept and making it work to the best of your ability. Strict powergaming died the day someone built a lvl1 Pun-Pun; the rest is about "Practical Optimization", and I don't know anybody who confuses that with "Theoretical Optimization", which is also fun but fairly obviously unplayable. TO is about the absolute limits of the system, akin to theoretical physicists attempting to determine the temperature of a Black Hole. PO is about making things work on a playable level, akin to an engineer attempting to design the strongest bridge with the materials at hand. It's possible that his answer involves black holes, but he'll discard that out of hand because that's not the sort of answer he cares about.

    If anyone was playing TO in a normal game, yeah, kick them out. If anyone's playing PO, well there's a chance they'll overshadow others, but they'll generally respond well if the DM gives them special unique limitations to work under, like what's discussed in my Optimizing Weakness thread. If anyone's playing a Werebear Halfdragon Celesial Karsite... well, they may LOOK nasty but their HP will be in the gutter and they'll probably go down in a round the first time they meet someone who can reliably affect them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akal Saris View Post
    Oh, and sonofzeal, I think you underestimate yourself - I consider you quite skilled at min/maxing from what I've seen on this board and BG/339.
    Thank you! I do consider myself pretty good at PO, I'm just not in the TO big leagues. I'm not the guy who discovers new combos, or creates famous builds. I do think I have pretty reliable good advice for practical gaming though, and I'm very gratified that you feel the same way. Thanks. =)
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  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: Toning it down: hiding optimization

    Quote Originally Posted by Riffington View Post
    Very good to hear. One alternative solution (not to reject your "playing left-handed approach", but it can backfire if done wrong): optimize for something other than power. You can optimize for any parameter given the character creation restraints - why must power always be the chosen parameter?
    Example: you could optimize for eclectic knowledge (Bardic Knowledge + Loremaster or Paragnostic Apostle + Different Knowledge Skills; favored enemy and sneak attack are both forms of applied knowledge; Jade Phoenix Mage gives knowledge of past lives; etc. The goal would be the biggest knowitall, not the biggest contributor to combat.
    Or you could optimize for the most organizations/individuals hunting you (Changeling or Doppleganger helps a lot here). Or for the largest landholdings.
    Just a note (not entirely related to what you said, infact quiet far from it)
    but the most broken character of all time is the lvl 1 punpun;
    He is build around just 1 thing (IIRC) getting 25 in knowledge religion at lvl 1.
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  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: Toning it down: hiding optimization

    Quote Originally Posted by sonofzeal View Post

    Often not possible. I don't know anyone in my extended gaming circle who's even remotely close to my level of rules-knowledge and optimization skill. I'm not one of the bigshots, but most of my IRL gaming group is in the "cutting holes in bedsheets to make ghost costumes" stage, to continue the Halloween analogy. Do I dump my friends and deny myself any chance to play, just because I can't find a group that's closer to my level?

    I would just play closer to my friends' level.

    We play with the groups available. Sometimes because we like these people outside of game and want to hang out, sometimes because there aren't more options. If you play together for a long time, you tend to arrive at a consensus, at least in my experience.

    If four people are having fun and the optimizer is bored, I think it's up to him to compromise. If the party is all about the min/maxing and I try to bring an unoptimized Sword and Boarder, and complain that I don't get to contribute, then I need to compromise.

    "Proving a point" never ends well. It may trash the campaign, or piss people off, or make you feel superior while you look for another group or play with four sullen, angry, resentful players, but it never makes the rest of the group suddenly see your side and agree with you.

    Needs of the many and all that.
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  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: Toning it down: hiding optimization

    Quote Originally Posted by sonofzeal View Post
    One of the ideas in Optimizing Weakness was to play a traditional caster, but voluntarily limit yourself to Adept spell slots. Invent a story reason for the limit, and a way to temporarily remove it in-game, and give the power to remove it to one of the weakest party members. That way you can still bail them out when need be, and the one with the reigns gets to feel like he was a part of it too.
    This is an interesting idea...and I feel that using optimization in a party-improving way is probably one of the best general solutions. I might use such an idea in the future myself.

  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Default Re: Toning it down: hiding optimization

    Yeah, I forgot how much Cleric can be cheesed out. I don't scour the expansion books and optimization boards looking for tricks during character concept.

    Try core-only Cleric and every spell that you prepare is only prepared once. You'll have a trick for most situations and you'll only pull powerful tricks, such as Divine Power or Flame Strike, when the fight looks tough. You can be effective and others will be grateful when you're really effective.

    If you can't stand this kind of holding back, leave the group. They can't do what you want from a game.
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  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: Toning it down: hiding optimization

    Quote Originally Posted by Sploosh View Post
    I didn't think this was a huge problem, and had a philosophy of "You do it your way and I'll do it my way" until my DM dropped a CR 18 on my solo character's ass (level 11) and one shotted me before I could do anything.
    He then told me that he simply wanted to give me a taste of my own medicine.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deastorm View Post
    Anyway, because the player that found my style abhorrant happened to be the DM's girlfriend, (who also happens to hate me as a person) my drow (level 7 wizard) was jumped by two level 18 drow warriors. I managed to kill one and incapacitate the other, before a 19th level psion matron shows up, incapacitates me, and basically makes me an NPC.
    Wow, there are some real ***hole DMs out there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_G View Post
    If they used it as Contingent Quickened Give Me All The Candy, then yes. Yes they should be denied.

    You said it yourself, making the nine splatbook PC satisfies different urges than playing the game. Satisfy those urges online or whatever, but satify the game playing urges in gameplay.

    Optimizing is generally a solo activity. Actually playing is a group activity. If the group is bored and the campaign in tatters because you twinked out and won the game in round one, then you have lost D&D, not won it.

    Optimizing is a spectrum, not a binary condition, so everyone falls somewhere along it. The key is to play with a group that is close enough that everyone enjoys the gameplay while at the table.
    You seem to be confusing "optimizing" and "twinking." The former means being good at your job, the latter means overshadowing the other players. You CAN do the former without doing the latter.

  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Default Re: Toning it down: hiding optimization

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    Wow, there are some real ***hole DMs out there.
    Yeah...when vastly level inappropriate encounters are being whipped out just to kill you...the point of the game has been lost somewhere along the way.

    That said, if such a thing happened to me, and I did drop the first two, I'd demand my xp before fighting the second. That should be enough to level, at least.

  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Default Re: Toning it down: hiding optimization

    Quote Originally Posted by Pharaoh's Fist View Post
    Real optimizers use Samurai*!

    *Damn you Shneeky!!!
    Hehe, that was a fun exercise in making the worst class strong enough to use. I'm trying to improve it by finding some way he can render opponents "Helpless" so he can CDG his opponents and make it go by *much* faster.

    Back on the original topic, however:

    If you want to Optimize, but don't want to out-shine everyone, then optimize Party Support!

    I built a Cleric a while back. Used DMM, but not Persist. He used DMM Chain Spell. + Reach Spell. And would be a party buff bot and healbot. Alone? He was weak and almost helpless. His BAB was abysmal, and he didn't even *HAVE* the Divine Power or Righteous Might spells (Spontaneous variant), he didn't 'nuke' and didn't have many Save or Screwed spells. What he *DID* have, in spades, was party buffing, and fix-it type spells.

    Basically, unless the entire party died in the surprise round, they won, because they couldn't match my character's ability to negate what they could do.

    In the beginning, he would DMM Chain Greater Magic Weapon, DMM Chain Reach Spell Magic Vestments, DMM Chain Mind Blank (Protection Domain), and I would reserve spells for DMM Chain Reach Spell Shield of Faith and DMM Chain Reach Spell Barkskin for when we got into combat. I would also be sure to be able to drop a DMM Chain Spell Reach Death Ward or a DMM Chain Spell Reach Freedom of Movement spell in the event the whole party needed it.

    In other words, the whole party had +5 gear, and was immune to mind-affecting and divination. If necessary, they could also be immune to Negative Energy effects (including Enervation), movement hampering effects (like Slow or Solid Fog), or both. If opponents did nasty things when they hit (like Rust Monsters), Shield of Faith would go off, and possibly Barkskin as well, if it would help.

    If we got hurt, then I would simply Heal whomever got hurt. If it was everyone getting hurt, I'd DMM Chain Reach it. If anyone would get negative effects, I'd negate those too.

    In other words, I wasn't strong because I could kill everything. I was strong, because as long as I was up, nothing could really hurt the party, who could then mop up anything they encountered.

    There was an arcane variant which used War Weaver and Arcane Disciple to great effect. Rather than Heal, he had more Battlefield Control, which again went along with the theme of "I didn't hurt anything, I just made it easier for the party to win"
    Last edited by ShneekeyTheLost; 2009-10-06 at 11:32 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Underlord View Post
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  10. - Top - End - #100
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    Default Re: Toning it down: hiding optimization

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_G View Post
    I would just play closer to my friends' level.

    We play with the groups available. Sometimes because we like these people outside of game and want to hang out, sometimes because there aren't more options. If you play together for a long time, you tend to arrive at a consensus, at least in my experience.

    If four people are having fun and the optimizer is bored, I think it's up to him to compromise. If the party is all about the min/maxing and I try to bring an unoptimized Sword and Boarder, and complain that I don't get to contribute, then I need to compromise.

    "Proving a point" never ends well. It may trash the campaign, or piss people off, or make you feel superior while you look for another group or play with four sullen, angry, resentful players, but it never makes the rest of the group suddenly see your side and agree with you.

    Needs of the many and all that.
    It's honestly not that easy. I could take any core class and overshadow them without even having to consult a book or go searching for feats. I don't have to be out to "prove a point", or even put much effort into it. When I hear "Sword and Board Fighter", I immediately think Shield Ward, plus Animated Shield or TWF with Improved Shield Bash, plus Goad or Martial Stance: Iron Guard's Glare. I immediately think that a Ranger dip for the TWF would be a great idea, that I should pack a longbow and weapons of various metals, that being a Dwarf would open up some nice PrC options as well as helping defend against magic, and that a detour through PsiWar 2 could be well worth it for the bonus feats, and if I did so that Warmind could be fantastic. And then I might actually start thinking about it.


    By contrast, here's an example of what I'm "up against":
    In one campaign I was in, we'd started around level three and worked our way up to eight, and there was this one Human Fighter who was.... interesting. He never once spent any of the gold we got, never claimed a magic item (note: this wasn't a part of his character, the player just "never got around to it"), was using a longsword onehanded with no shield, and his feats were Alertness, Dodge, Endurance, Improved Critical (longsword), Improved Initiative, Self-Sufficient, Weapon Focus (Long-sword), and Weapon Specialization (Long-sword). He had an AC of 19 and was attacking with +13/+8(1d8+5), and had no other significant combat options. At level eight. And actively resisted any friendly advice I tried to give on how to be more effective.


    That player may have been an extreme case, but that gives you some idea about the rest of the group. Playing on that level is going to make me feel horribly confined. Have you ever played in a campaign where the DM made character sheets for everyone and told you right up front who you had to play and how you had to play them? It generally doesn't make for a particularly fun experience, and this would feel the same way to me.

    Now, I personally have a lot of good ideas for making this work, after the whole Optimizing Weakness thread. I posted one or two of those ideas already, and there's a bunch more I'd definitely consider playing next time I'm in a group like that. There's a whole lot more people like me though, and not all of them have that one obscure thread. Asking them to play deliberately crippled characters is going to damage their enjoyment of the game, just as being horribly overshadowed is going damage everyone else's. Yeah yeah, "needs of the many" and all that, but this is a game, and games are supposed to be fun for everyone. Compromise is in order, and that involves accommodations on both sides. Here's three ideas.



    1) The veteran works with the others at character creation. This is popular, but a lot of mediocre players really resent it and actively resist any attempt to improve their character. Still, it's a good place to start.

    2) The DM makes the veteran's character plot-significant in some way. Perhaps he's a noble the players have to protect and all the NPCs are gunning for. Perhaps he's re-fluffed as wielding some ancient power that's significant to the plot. Making it a part of the game world removes some of the pressure from the other players, and helps them feel like it's not a direct competition. It doesn't matter as much if you're not quite as powerful as the walking macguffin, as long as the DM pitches the campaign to you and makes sure you have plenty to do.

    3) The DM puts special limits or challenges on the veteran's character. This is what's covered in Optimizing Weakness, conditions the veteran can operate under that bring him back into line. Perhaps he's banned from using Core material, perhaps he has to use 3d6 organic stats, perhaps he has to use only Tier 5/6 classes. Whichever way, defining the handicap at the outset is a great way to bring things back into line. It's what they do in a lot of real-world sports!



    In my experience, DMs are uncomfortable doing some of these things, but I personally would downright appreciate it. I'd far rather start working under limited conditions and get to flex my optimization might within them, than have stuff get nerfed/banned later on. It's the DM's job to make sure everyone's having fun, so it's their job to work with the veteran too.
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