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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: [3.5] Help with Dagger-Throwing Rogue

    using exotic materials and enchantments does not change the fact you are using an inherantly inferior weapon. And the same enchantments and exotic materials are available to those who use the inherantly superior weapons.

    the solution is really some sort of rebalancing I think.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Help with Dagger-Throwing Rogue

    Quote Originally Posted by taltamir View Post
    using exotic materials and enchantments does not change the fact you are using an inherantly inferior weapon. And the same enchantments and exotic materials are available to those who use the inherantly superior weapons.

    the solution is really some sort of rebalancing I think.
    Yes you can get the same enchantments and special materials on the superior weapon, but to get a single 6-dagger full-attack (easily possible at level 11 just with Feats and Full BAB) it's going to cost you 12,000 just to get a +1 enhancement bonus to damage. Up that to a +2 bonus and you're looking at 48,000. Adamantine will cost another 18,000, for a total of 66,000 for one round of attacks.

    For only 1,000gp more you could get 50 +4 Shuriken and 50 +4 Adamantine Shuriken. Sure they're expendable, but in the short term (and lets face it, the short term is all that really matters in D&D...funds are always replacable), you've got a lot more bang for your buck. Assuming you're only making full-attacks, throwing 6 shuriken per round, that's 16 rounds worth of +4 attacks. If you drop the enhancement bonus to +3 or +2, you can more or less double that and double it again (approx 30-odd +3 shuriken full-attacks or 60-odd +2's).

    Now assuming you want to get the most out of your +2 daggers, you're going to put returning on them (though for the same price equivalency you could get another 18 +1 daggers), but that means that your huge investment is only showing +1 to hit and damage...my investment is showing +1 to hit/damage and I can put some extras like Seeking (handy vs incorporeals), Wounding (did you just lose 6 points of Con to my full-attack? shame...) and Bane (who says I have to have them all triggered to the same creature? I'll have 6 Humanbane, 6 Elfbane, 6 Undeadbane, etc, etc).

    That I can only use each of mine once (assuming a they hit) is really not that much of a bother to me...I can end a fight faster and more efficiently than you can because my resources, though limited, are more powerful. Think of it in terms of Vancian casting...very powerful but limited uses. Not a perfect analogy (my limited uses aren't replaced every day), but it will do.

    So although my base weapon isn't as good, the magical enhancements I get over yours makes mine a better weapon.
    Last edited by JellyPooga; 2009-10-08 at 04:05 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Help with Dagger-Throwing Rogue

    A bow is better for ammo though, and you can enchant the bow too. You're only losing the halfling +1 to hit, but once you get into enchanting costs and the cheapo lesser bracers of archery it makes up for it. The downside is you can't TWF or flurry. I could see shurikens maybe being better for a pure ammo focus, with every kind of bane and special material there is. That plus the extra attacks might make it worth it. But rogue BAB plus all those penalties might hurt later on. Ya, I doubt you could outdo a bow this way.
    Last edited by ericgrau; 2009-10-08 at 06:24 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Help with Dagger-Throwing Rogue

    when i said superior weapon i meant greatsword instead of a throwing dagger. not daggers over shurikens.
    Last edited by taltamir; 2009-10-08 at 06:24 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Help with Dagger-Throwing Rogue

    I was comparing a bow to shurikens. If shuriken > greatsword and bow > shuriken then bow > greatsword (for a rogue).
    Last edited by ericgrau; 2009-10-08 at 06:26 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Help with Dagger-Throwing Rogue

    Quote Originally Posted by ericgrau View Post
    No, if you read the rule carefully it says you get the ranged penalty at the range specified, but not less than that range.

    (emphasis mine)

    Furthermore someone 2 squares away from you is still 10 feet away. Measure from center of square to center of square if that makes you feel better. Or use the common interpretation of the reach rules (5 feet = 1 square, 10 feet = 2 squares, etc.) as precedent.
    One full range increment, 10 feet, is only one full range increment once you hit the backside of the second square. Anything within that range, including the creature in it, is LESS than 10 feet from you.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Help with Dagger-Throwing Rogue

    Quote Originally Posted by Myrmex View Post
    One full range increment, 10 feet, is only one full range increment once you hit the backside of the second square. Anything within that range, including the creature in it, is LESS than 10 feet from you.
    No, it doesn't work that way. Each D&D square is 5'. When they're talking about reach weapons they use exact 5' increments for distance.
    A longspear has reach. You can strike opponents 10 feet away with it, but you canít use it against an adjacent foe.
    An opponent 2 squares away is either 10' or 15' (if on a diagonal) distant. They're not some fractional distance away, because D&D doesn't have fractional distances. It only has 5' squares.

    Plus your reasoning also doesn't work. If you're attacking from a specific point rather than treating each square as a whole, the back side of the square is only within 10' if the part you're aiming for is exactly parallel to a grid line. Even at the middle of a grid line the two back corners are 10.3' away, so with your reasoning some enemy could squeeze into a corner of their square and be completely past a reach weapon's ability to hit, and also more than a 10' range increment away.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Help with Dagger-Throwing Rogue

    Quote Originally Posted by taltamir View Post
    when i said superior weapon i meant greatsword instead of a throwing dagger. not daggers over shurikens.
    I have to ask...why on earth would you be talking about a greatsword for a character that wants to focus on throwing weapons? Sure you could change your build to be a melee-brute, but that would be changing your entire character concept, which defeats the point.

    @ericgrau - Yeah, Bow is better. You can stack all your enhancement bonus on your bow (i.e. go for the +5 to hit/damage) and then put your special properties on your arrows. Again, though, if you're going for a thrower build (which has it's advantages; concealability for a start) then you're not going to want to use a bow for stylistic purposes. As you say, you can't TWF or Flurry a bow...at very high levels, a half-decent thrower build can be getting 16 'rounds' off with a full-attack, each of which targets 2 opponents (so that's effectively 32 attacks).

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    Default Re: [3.5] Help with Dagger-Throwing Rogue

    I have to say +1 for the gloves of endless javelins . If you are fixated on daggers, you could use those when you know the opponent wont have DR against them. The gloves are from MIC and are part of a set. They are affordable by seventh level, when DR because more prevalent too.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Help with Dagger-Throwing Rogue

    Quote Originally Posted by JellyPooga View Post
    I have to ask...why on earth would you be talking about a greatsword for a character that wants to focus on throwing weapons?
    Because by the rules a greatsword is a superior weapon. Which is why I came up with all those suggestions to balance them out that he can pitch at his DM. He should not be crippled (compared to the already crippled melee fighters) just for wanting to play out a cool idea.
    Plus it seemed like he himself acknowledges that throwing daggers are not an "ideal" build...

    why are you telling him to "use shurikens instead" when he wants to make a DAGGER thrower? I actually suggest feats abilities and items to make a DAGGER thrower viable.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Help with Dagger-Throwing Rogue

    Quote Originally Posted by taltamir View Post
    Because by the rules a greatsword is a superior weapon. Which is why I came up with all those suggestions to balance them out that he can pitch at his DM. He should not be crippled (compared to the already crippled melee fighters) just for wanting to play out a cool idea.
    Plus it seemed like he himself acknowledges that throwing daggers are not an "ideal" build...

    why are you telling him to "use shurikens instead" when he wants to make a DAGGER thrower? I actually suggest feats abilities and items to make a DAGGER thrower viable.
    For a start, a shuriken can quite easily be fluffed as a "light throwing dagger" without so much as blinking an eyelid...it is, after all, essentially what they are.

    Second, your suggestions were to introduce something new into the game (new feat, new weapon). My suggestions were to work within the rules to achieve the desired outcome. Which is more likely to be approved by the GM?

    No, a dagger throwing build is not "optimal", but then if everyone played an optimised character they'd all be playing Wizards, Druids and Clerics now wouldn't they? However, a "thrower" build can be very effective...as I demonstrated in my last post, a thrower can get a lot of attacks off in one round. If those attacks are highly enchanted, then the potential is high to do a lot of damage. Taking my aforementioned +4 Shuriken (100 of them), that's affordable at Level 12 with some spare change (about 20,000gp spare). At level 12, a thrower build can be getting off 8 attacks on a full-attack against each of 2 opponents (Rogue 7/Master Thrower 5, Improved TWF and Rapid Shot). If those shuriken are all Wounding and assuming a 50% hit rate (which is being mean, I'd expect a better than 50% hit rate), each of those 2 opponents are taking 4 Con damage each turn as well as whatever damage you do. It's not, perhaps, as impressive as the damage output of some other builds, but it's a compelling thought nonetheless.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Help with Dagger-Throwing Rogue

    Can you even apply Wounding to bows or ammunition? It's listed on the Melee table in the SRD, and not on the ranged, and it doesn't have the text about "Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow the X power upon their ammunition." that other ranged-allowed enchantments like Holy or Bane have.

    Nor is it listed in the "Ranged Weapon Properties" table in the MIC.

    Of course, the Wounding text doesn't say it can't be applied to ranged weapons/ammunition, so I guess it's not completely clear.


    Also, just to be clear -- for 50 Wounding shurikens you're talking about more than 18,000 gp (Wounding is a +2 enhancement, and you cannot apply an enhancement to a weapon without also giving it at least a +1 enhancement bonus). That's an extremely money-intensive build, especially if you are throwing 16 or 32 shuriken per round -- a major drawback that a bow-based or (especially) melee-based build doesn't suffer.
    Last edited by technophile; 2009-10-09 at 08:35 AM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Help with Dagger-Throwing Rogue

    Question ... an Artificer Infusion can be placed into a Wand, correct? If so, it would only cost 750gp for a Wand of Personal Weapon Augmentation. UMD'ing that, while it takes a minute to do, would bump up the usefulness quite a bit. Springing for a few +1 returning daggers wouldn't be very expensive comparatively.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Help with Dagger-Throwing Rogue

    Quote Originally Posted by technophile View Post
    Also, just to be clear -- for 50 Wounding shurikens you're talking about more than 18,000 gp (Wounding is a +2 enhancement, and you cannot apply an enhancement to a weapon without also giving it at least a +1 enhancement bonus). That's an extremely money-intensive build, especially if you are throwing 16 or 32 shuriken per round -- a major drawback that a bow-based or (especially) melee-based build doesn't suffer.
    The price bracket I was using was 67,000 for 50 +4 Shuriken and 50 +4 Adamantine Shuriken, because 66,000 is the cost of 6 Adamantine +2 Daggers (both of these prices exclude the cost of the weapon itself).

    50 +1 Wounding Shuriken would indeed cost you 18,000.
    6 +1 Wounding Daggers would cost you 108,000.

    Looking at this from the perspective of one combat, the shuriken is a better investment. The daggers will have to be retrieved to be used again, whereas you'll get 8 rounds of full-attacks out of the shuriken for 1/6th the price. If you wanted to get a similar effect with the daggers over the duration of the combat, adding Returning to the cost of those daggers is going to put you back another 80,000 or so. Sure it's better in the long run, but over a shorter term, you're thousands of gold out of pocket for the same effect. To put it another way, going by the Starting Wealth tables, you can afford those shuriken (and nothing else) at level 7. You can't even consider the daggers until level 13. Considering that a 6-thrown dagger full-attack is quite easy to achieve at level 7, if you were hoping for wounding daggers to complement your skills, you're going to be waiting a long time, whereas the shuriken might just be within your reach (if only for a couple of rounds...but then if you only use your special ammo against foes that really need that extra oomph, then you're getting more magic against that foe than your WBL should dictate. You effectively break the wealth curve at the expense of limited use. You're not really supposed to be playing with Wounding weapons until around the level 10+ mark.

    I won't deny that the cost in the long term is high and that a bow or melee build simply doesn't have that cost (the bow does really with its ammo), but when talking about a throwing build anyway, my argument is that you can have a lot more flexibility and raw damaging potential out of throwing shuriken rather than daggers. If the OP had specified a ranged-build, then I would be advocating a bow or crossbow; you effectively get twice the enchantment with a bow/x-bow. The fact is, though, is that he didn't, so I'm trying to help build him (using published material) a better thrower character (as requested).
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    Default Re: [3.5] Help with Dagger-Throwing Rogue

    Quote Originally Posted by Telonius View Post
    Question ... an Artificer Infusion can be placed into a Wand, correct? If so, it would only cost 750gp for a Wand of Personal Weapon Augmentation. UMD'ing that, while it takes a minute to do, would bump up the usefulness quite a bit. Springing for a few +1 returning daggers wouldn't be very expensive comparatively.
    The problem is that the Returning enchantment sucks. For it to work, you can't move, and you can't make a full attack without putting out big bucks for a half-dozen daggers.

    There are solutions, though. Whisperknife was mentioned, but as said, it's limited. Bloodstorm Blade 4 is ideal, but that doesn't quite fit with rogue. There's also a level 3 Psychic Warrior power in RotW that would work, but its name escapes me. Put it into a dorje and it's only a UPD check away.

    This way, you're only enchanting one dagger, which is comparable to 50 shuriken.

    As for the original question, you can enchant a single dagger and use one of these solutions, or alternatively a Chained (Greater) Magic Weapon or similar abilities.
    Last edited by tonberrian; 2009-10-09 at 09:43 AM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Help with Dagger-Throwing Rogue

    Quote Originally Posted by JellyPooga View Post
    As you say, you can't TWF or Flurry a bow...at very high levels, a half-decent thrower build can be getting 16 'rounds' off with a full-attack, each of which targets 2 opponents (so that's effectively 32 attacks).
    I dunno about master thrower but usually high levels is when you don't want to TWF, flurry, rapid shot, etc. Well, maybe 1-2, but not all 3. A -2 to so many attacks is enough to cause a miss or two, which negates the benefit of having an extra attack.

    I once posted a fighter build at wizards.com to see if another martial (not caster) build could beat it. Someone posted a monk with a bajillion attacks and said "12 attacks, X damage each, ha I win!" Then I showed him the math and said, "No you don't, your attacks have Y% chance of hitting so you get average Z hits per round, which is less than me, and do less damage per hit too."

    OTOH a million attacks at a low bonus does work against mooks.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Help with Dagger-Throwing Rogue

    Quote Originally Posted by ericgrau View Post
    I dunno about master thrower but usually high levels is when you don't want to TWF, flurry, rapid shot, etc. Well, maybe 1-2, but not all 3. A -2 to so many attacks is enough to cause a miss or two, which negates the benefit of having an extra attack.

    I once posted a fighter build at wizards.com to see if another martial (not caster) build could beat it. Someone posted a monk with a bajillion attacks and said "12 attacks, X damage each, ha I win!" Then I showed him the math and said, "No you don't, your attacks have Y% chance of hitting so you get average Z hits per round, which is less than me, and do less damage per hit too."

    OTOH a million attacks at a low bonus does work against mooks.
    Master Thrower gets touch attacks against anything larger than them, and most things at high levels are big and have low touch AC.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Help with Dagger-Throwing Rogue

    Quote Originally Posted by tonberrian View Post
    Master Thrower gets touch attacks against anything larger than them, and most things at high levels are big and have low touch AC.
    It also gets to double it's attacks at the cost of not adding your Str bonus to damage (and if you don't have a Str bonus in the first place...).
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    Default Re: [3.5] Help with Dagger-Throwing Rogue

    Quote Originally Posted by tonberrian View Post
    For it to work, you can't move
    I don't see how this is a huge drawback. If you're making a full attack, your only possible move is going to be a five-foot step. Make it before you throw the daggers, and there's no problem. (The exception is if you've abandoned all good sense and taken the Spring Attack line, in which case you have bigger problems than picking up daggers).
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    Default Re: [3.5] Help with Dagger-Throwing Rogue

    Quote Originally Posted by Telonius View Post
    Question ... an Artificer Infusion can be placed into a Wand, correct?
    No, not correct. Wands only hold spells.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Help with Dagger-Throwing Rogue

    Quote Originally Posted by ericgrau View Post
    I dunno about master thrower but usually high levels is when you don't want to TWF, flurry, rapid shot, etc. Well, maybe 1-2, but not all 3. A -2 to so many attacks is enough to cause a miss or two, which negates the benefit of having an extra attack.

    OTOH a million attacks at a low bonus does work against mooks.
    Works great if you are a potion thrower. A decent dex and BAB mean that you virtually never miss a ranged touch attack. Bandoleers of alchemists fire and acid flasks for the win.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Help with Dagger-Throwing Rogue

    Quote Originally Posted by tonberrian View Post
    Master Thrower gets touch attacks against anything larger than them, and most things at high levels are big and have low touch AC.
    Wait, so isn't that easily exploitable with a halfling master thrower? Or better yet a tiny sprite or a halfing with reduce person?

    A good number of high level creatures are medium and a good number of low-mid-ish level creatures are large. But maybe there are more large creatures at higher levels. As for small creatures at any level, there's not so many. It would seem like a small race would be a must-have for a master thrower.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnaeus View Post
    Works great if you are a potion thrower. A decent dex and BAB mean that you virtually never miss a ranged touch attack. Bandoleers of alchemists fire and acid flasks for the win.
    Whoa boy, I'm not gonna get into whether or not you can sneak attack with splash weapons (or if DMs should allow such an exploit to grant touch attacks on something more than a 1d6).
    Last edited by ericgrau; 2009-10-09 at 11:32 AM.
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    Person_Man's Avatar

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    Default Re: [3.5] Help with Dagger-Throwing Rogue

    Other options:

    As has been mentioned, something like Rogue 3/Warblade 2/Bloodstorm Blade 4/Master Thrower 5/Rogue X is a pretty good combo.

    TWF with hand crossbows. You'll get a full magical weapon ranged attack on every attack. I'm pretty sure that there's a way to modify crossbows so that they can be used as melee weapons as well (though I forget the source), and I know for a fact that there are a dozen or more ways to get 3+ hands so that you can reload without a problem (Third Hand from MIC being the easiest).

    Just get really big reach. You need to stay within 30 ft anyway for Sneak Attack. So instead of throwing daggers, take Exotic Weapon Proficiency in dagger-whips or Spinning Swords (Secrets of Sarlona, pg 136. Basically a Spiked Chain that you can only use with one hand), and find a reliable way to increase your reach. It fulfills your desire to strike at a range, but adds the benefit of a big threatened area and makes it easier for you to qualify for Sneak Attack.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Help with Dagger-Throwing Rogue

    Quote Originally Posted by JellyPooga View Post
    The price bracket I was using was 67,000 for 50 +4 Shuriken and 50 +4 Adamantine Shuriken, because 66,000 is the cost of 6 Adamantine +2 Daggers (both of these prices exclude the cost of the weapon itself).

    50 +1 Wounding Shuriken would indeed cost you 18,000.
    6 +1 Wounding Daggers would cost you 108,000.
    Again, assuming you can even put Wounding on ammunition/ranged weapons, which I'm still unsure of.

    I won't deny that the cost in the long term is high and that a bow or melee build simply doesn't have that cost (the bow does really with its ammo)
    Sure, but that's why you put the expensive or commonly used enchantments on your bow(s), and then buy the ammunition cheaper with varied effects; it doesn't hurt as much as if you only have ammo to hang your enchantments off of.

    but when talking about a throwing build anyway, my argument is that you can have a lot more flexibility and raw damaging potential out of throwing shuriken rather than daggers. If the OP had specified a ranged-build, then I would be advocating a bow or crossbow; you effectively get twice the enchantment with a bow/x-bow. The fact is, though, is that he didn't, so I'm trying to help build him (using published material) a better thrower character (as requested).
    Oh, absolutely; I wasn't trying to suggest otherwise. I was just pointing out that enchanting shuriken is not going to be cost-effective long term, compared to your average melee-er or even bowman. Which sucks. Personally I think Returning is way overpriced -- it could easily be made cheaper without breaking the game, I think, and it would put throwing builds more on par with melee builds as far as weapon costs and thus effectiveness are concerned.
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: [3.5] Help with Dagger-Throwing Rogue

    Quote Originally Posted by ericgrau View Post
    Whoa boy, I'm not gonna get into whether or not you can sneak attack with splash weapons (or if DMs should allow such an exploit to grant touch attacks on something more than a 1d6).
    RAW sneak attack just requires an attack. Not an attack with a weapon, or any other qualifier. It is generally agreed that you can sneak attack with a spell or other magical effect (like a warlock blast), as long as it requires an attack roll. (Pathfinder erratas this and says you can't sneak attack with splash weapons)

    Whether it is an exploit that should or shouldn't be allowed is a balance question, and depends A LOT on what else is in your party. A potion thrower in a high tier well optimized party is, if anything, underbalanced. The same character in a group of tier 4 and 5s is crazy broken. A related question is how easily the rogue can get the bandoleers of acid, holy water, and alchemists fire to make this tactic effective.

    Now whether your DM wants to rule that it isn't logical to sneak attack with such a thing is a fair question, but there are lots of weapons you couldn't LOGICALLY sneak attack with. (I sneak up behind him and target the kobold's vital spots with my huge goliath greathammer...).
    Last edited by Gnaeus; 2009-10-09 at 11:43 AM.

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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: [3.5] Help with Dagger-Throwing Rogue

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnaeus View Post
    RAW sneak attack just requires an attack. Not an attack with a weapon, or any other qualifier.
    Actually, sneak attack requires both a successful attack roll, and damage. Sneak attack damage is generally of the same type as the primary attack (though the sneak attack deals negative energy damage for attacks that do ability damage). So someone splashed by a splash weapon doesn't get sneak attack damage because they didn't get attacked. But someone hit directly by the splash weapon would get sneak attack damage if the primary attack dealt damage. And even though you make an attack roll to throw a tanglefoot bag, it deals no damage so there's no sneak attack.

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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: [3.5] Help with Dagger-Throwing Rogue

    I agree with Curmudgeon, there. The splash doesn't SA, that's silly, but you can always throw a vial directly at an eye or something.

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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: [3.5] Help with Dagger-Throwing Rogue

    I wasn't arguing that the splash delivered sneak attack damage. Curmudgeon is correct by my interpretation of the rules. Some people say that splash weapons can't be used for sneak attack.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Help with Dagger-Throwing Rogue

    Quote Originally Posted by technophile View Post
    Oh, absolutely; I wasn't trying to suggest otherwise. I was just pointing out that enchanting shuriken is not going to be cost-effective long term, compared to your average melee-er or even bowman. Which sucks. Personally I think Returning is way overpriced -- it could easily be made cheaper without breaking the game, I think, and it would put throwing builds more on par with melee builds as far as weapon costs and thus effectiveness are concerned.
    You've forgotten about GMW. I think that's what brought up shuriken in the first place.

    Using one round to cast GMW to get 50 +5 shuriken in one round, or get one +5 dagger. You'd almost always use MW weapons, finding some way to case GMW once/twice per encounter. That should be cheaper than getting your six +5 daggers.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Help with Dagger-Throwing Rogue

    Quote Originally Posted by technophile View Post
    Personally I think Returning is way overpriced -- it could easily be made cheaper without breaking the game, I think, and it would put throwing builds more on par with melee builds as far as weapon costs and thus effectiveness are concerned.
    Alternatively you could make Returning more expensive and not suck; a +2 property that lets you make a full attack with a single throwing weapon would be reasonable, I think. Or take the 4E approach, decide that throwers being able to actually work isn't a big deal, and give that property to the current Returning.

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