Making Due: An Optimisers Challenge

[ShneekeyTheLost]

True, but disallowing the item would not completely gimp him - it would merely force him to drop the garnishments. He would still have Truespeak modifier of +55 with the Universal Aptitude, which automatically succeeds on the check to affect a single ally or an enemy of near-equivalent CR. Then, if we wish to chain it or make non-SR, we would have to gamble a bit more. A no-SR, no save Slow on any enemy still wouldn't be unfeasible.

EDIT: And there's always the Item familiar, although I do prefer the custom item.

This is true, although I don't think Item Familiar is a very legitimate way of doing things.

As it stands, even without the custom item, the build is perfectly viable as a lockdown build, and has been added to the list of Submission on the OP.

[Gralamin]

Hmm, Actually owning Complete Psionic and Secrets of Sarlona, I may just try to do an actual working Soulknife (Not using Soulbow). We'll see what I can do...

[Gralamin]

Since I'm not sure what to build to, I'll do a level by level build.

Here is a beta version, that I think has some potential.
Stats: Assuming 25 point buy: Str 16, Dex 13, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8
Race: Any
Loot Wise: Any Stat increase items. Mind Blade Gauntlet (Wounding). 1/day item of Greater Magic Weapon +5.
Skills: Keep Concentration and Autohypnosis up. Rest free.
Attribute Increases: Strength.

Level 1: Class Soulknife, using Hidden Talent. Feat: Monastic Training (Soulknife)
Level 2: Soulknife 2
Level 3: Monk 1. Take Tashalatora (Soulknife) (Secrets of Sarlona, Get Monk AC, Flurry of Blows, and unarmed strike attack damage). Take Stunning Fist for your monk feat.
Level 4: Soulknife 3 (Use Bonus Feat variant From Mind's Eye)
Level 5: Soulknife 4.
Level 6: Soulknife 5. Take Monk's Spade Mind Blade, your mind blade now is now a two-handed double weapon monk weapon.
Level 7: Monk 2. Take Monastic Training (Fighter)
Level 8: Fighter 1. Grab Hazing Strike. (Can now using stunning Strike to turn off non-magical altered mental states, such as Psionic focus and rage).
Level 9: Soulknife 6. Grab Stunning Master. (Can now use Stunning Strike with monk weapons)
Level 10: Soulknife 7. Grab Deep Attack
Level 11: Soulknife 8.
Level 12: Soulknife 9. Grab Shape Soulmeld (Thunderstep Boots)
Level 13: Soulknife 10
Level 14: Soulknife 11 Grab Psycarnum Blade
Level 15: Soulknife 12. Grab Martial Study (Lightning Recovery)
Level 16: Soulknife 13 - Knife to the Soul is sadly useless. I wish I was allowed to trade this out
Level 17: Soulknife 14
Level 18: Soulknife 15. Grab Open Least Soulmeld (Feet) and Psycarnum Infusion
Level 19: Soulknife 16
Level 20: Soulknife 17

At level 17, we can Flurry of Blows Multiple Throw Mindblade wounding ones for some nice Con damage on a hit. But this definitely can't meaningful contribute yet. This is, however a basis, and suggestions would be nice. Largest problem is how feat starved it is.

[Draz74]

Paladin is listed as Tier 5, but a straight-up Paladin isn't really that hard to optimize nowadays, especially with Flaws available. Mounted and unmounted are both pretty viable. Here's my take on the unmounted version:

Sir Cadrus
Human Paladin (Healing Spirit variant)
Feats:
Level 1: Power Attack, (human bonus) Serenity, (flaw) Travel Devotion, (flaw) Exotic Weapon Proficiency (elven courtblade)
Level 3: Good Karma
Level 6: Battle Blessing
Level 9: Improved Critical (courtblade)
Level 12: Martial Study (iron heart surge)
Level 15: Unbelievable Luck
Level 18: Fortuitous Strike
Equipment: (combine via custom item rules as needed) +1 Impaling Whirling Kaorti-Resin Elven Courtblade, coupla Nightsticks, craploada Level 1 Pearls of Power, Caduceus Bracers, Tooth of Savnok, Greatreach Bracers, Novice Crown of the White Raven, Novice Ring of the Diamond Mind (x2), Novice Desert Wind Cloak, Novice Iron Heart Vest, Novice Devoted Spirit Amulet, Amulet of Heartseeking, Wisdom +6, Strength +6, Constitution +6, etc. etc. etc.

[ZeroNumerous]

Iffy the Knifer. 1d4-2+5d6(Sudden Strike)+1d6(Item)+2d6(Assassin's Stance)+6d6(Iaijutsu)/shot, flat-foots as a move action(free action if he gets a Reduce Person) and can hide in your own shadow if you aren't standing in natural sunlight.

Downside? Fifty-fifty shot to hit on CR appropriate foes. "Eh.. Iffy."

[dspeyer]

Lots more to do:

Tier 5: Fighter, Monk, CA Ninja, Healer, Swashbuckler, Rokugan Ninja, Soulknife, Expert, OA Samurai, Paladin, Knight
Tier 6: CW Samurai, Aristocrat, Warrior, Commoner
Tier 7: Truenamer, Lightening Warrior

I'll update the crossouts as we go.

I suppose none of this counts because it's gestalt. Still might be worth a look.

[dspeyer]

Expert 15 / Factotum 3 / Swordsage 2

Maxed skills: Hide, Move Silently, Spot, Listen, Search, Disable Device, Concentration, Iajutsu Focus
However much is left: Knowledge(local), Knowledge(arcana), Knowledge(nature)

Feats: Darkstalker, Weapon Finesse, Knowledge Devotion, Martial Study (Moment of Perfect Mind), Martial Study (Cloak of Deception), Shadow Blade, Martial Study(Action Before Thought), Martial Stance (Assasin's Stance)

Manuevers: Mind over Body, Shadow Stride, Strength Draining Strike, Bloodletting Strike, Shadow Garrotte, Burning Blade, Greater Insightful Strike
Stance: Hearing the air

Weapon: Brilliant Energy Rapier

Sneak up on your enemies, draw your weapon really fast and kill them (greater insightful strike + iajutsu focus + assasin's stance + burning blade + knowledge devotion makes for lots of damage). It's mostly about the skills (which is what experts are mostly about).

{edit: added knowledge devotion}

[sonofzeal]

Bubs, Venerable Strongheart Halfling Commoner3/Marshal1

Traits and Flaws
Uncivilized
Murky-eyed


Feats
Flaw - Flexible Mind = +1
Human - Animal Affinity
1 - Skill Focus: Handle Animal
3 - Dinosaur Wrangler


Cha can be as high as 22 (18 base, +3 age, +1 ap)

Buy an Animal Trainer's Kit

Beg the DM for a custom item of Handle Animal (we can technically afford up to a +7 item, depending on your cheese tolerance).

Activate a Marshal Aura of Motivate Charisma.

Become an affiliate of the "Animal Domain" organization (Complete Champion page 30); you only need a +4 affiliate score, and taking full ranks in Handle Animal and Know:Nature gets you there.



Total Handle Animal score: 37 (7ranks +6cha, +6aura, +7 item, +2kit, +2affinity, +3focus, +2affiliate, +1trait, +1flexible), with an additional +4 against Dinosaurs.



Now, the DC to rear a wild animal is 15 + the animal's HD, and doing so gets you up to three of that kind of animal. The DCs to train it afterwards are constant, so that's good. Assuming take 10 is allowed, or we get merely average rolls, we can reliably rear wild animals of up to 32 HD. This includes such fun ones as the Dire Rhinoceros (CR 9) and Dire Elephant (CR 10). However, we also get a +4 with Dinosaurs, raising the limit up to 36.

If you guessed that I was going to roll out a 36 HD dinosaur, you're on the money. Meet the Battletitan. At the low end of CR 16, it's not going to be soloing the Tarrasque any time soon. But with AC 35, four natural attacks that are not going to miss, legendary hp, impressive saves, a Str score better than a Storm Giant, Improved Grab, and a buttload of feats to customize with... yeah, you'll be travelling in style. And for all your effort, you get three of these.

At level four.

(edit - You can also raise Magical Beasts of up to 17 HD. I'm sure there's all sorts of fun there, too, but I'll leave that as an exercise to the reader.)

(edit2 - Couldn't resist. Here's a partial list of possibilities: Chronotyryn (CR 19), Disenchanter (CR 17), 12-Headed Cryohydra (CR 13), Nightmare Beast (CR 15), Spellgaunt (CR 12). Unfortunately, training magical beasts is considerably harder, as apparently they're willful folk. Might not take kindly to some ancient, shrivelled halfling giving them orders. Still, hey, roll a 20 and you've got it. And if you've got a trio of pets with Time Stop as an SLA and Dual Actions, you shouldn't have much to worry about.)


(edit3 - Battletitan flavour, just for the win: "Battletitan dinosaurs are massive predatory beasts meticulously bred as hybrids of other dinosaurs. They do not occur naturally; only elaborate nonmagical breeding techniques give rise to the mighty battletitans. Kingdoms that fi eld the dinosaurs in their armies jealously guard the means of their creation, treating such information as a state secret. With the ferocity of the most dangerous carnivores and the defenses of the toughest armored herbivores, a battletitan is a terror to behold." Three of them.



You just know I'm going to be heartbroken if someone finds a hole in my build...)

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Take leadership and have your followers and cohorts Aid Another to ensure that you make the checks.

[dspeyer]

Warblade 1 / Swashbuckler 19

1: Able Learner, Two Weapon Fighting, White Raven Defense (flaw), Weapon Focus kukri (flaw)
3: Martial Study(Shadow Hand)
6: Clarion Commander
9: Martial Stance(Assasin's Stance)
12: Daring Outlaw
15: Improved Critical (Kukri)
18: Disemboweling strike

Manuevers: 2 White Raven and Moment of Perfect Mind
Skills: Tumble, Concentration, Intimidate, etc.

It's a tank with two tricks. First is your standard perpetual flanking means perpetual sneak attack build, only with 13d6 sa and full bab. Also, there's a constitution-draining approach, with 5 attacks per round, crit on 15-20, 2 points of con and str per critical (with disemboweling strike to keep the con damage piling).

Try to get buffed with Haste.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Perhaps you should add a Wounding enchantment to your weapon?

[dspeyer]

Perhaps you should add a Wounding enchantment to your weapon?

I left out equipment, partly because dual-wielding high-quality weapons gets expensive, but sure.

If I can afford to make them keen, too, I can swap out improved critical for improved two-weapon fighting.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

You just use Scabbards of Keen Edges for Keen. Wounding is a +2 enchantment, so it wouldn't be too expensive to have on your weapons.

[sonofzeal]

Take leadership and have your followers and cohorts Aid Another to ensure that you make the checks.

Well, Leadership required level 6. Besides, the kicker was trying to score the Battletitan, as it's the official animal with the highest HD. I considered going the nanobots route, but honestly that's played out and I think this is classier. However cheese it may be, this guy does it on his own merits.

That said, hey, with nanobots there's no reason we couldn't grab ourselves a Phoenix (CR 24) or Fiendwurm (CR 28). Or heck, there's a DC for "Rear other creature", so the sky's the limit, so to speak.


I'm happy with my Battletitan though.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Well, Leadership required level 6.

Keith Baker, who cannot be trusted with a spoon, offers us a way around that particular problem.

Feat
Nymm ascendant [Lunar]
Prerequisite: Natural birth
Benefit: Those born while Nymm is ascendant gain +1 bonus to Leadership score to recruit followers or cohorts, this bonus rises to +2 during the month of Nymm. Characters with Nymm Ascendant can take the Leadership Feat at 2nd level.
If a character born under an ascendant moon later develops the Dragonmark that is associated with the ascendant moon, the spell-like abilities of that Dragonmark are cast at +1 caster level.
Special: You may select this eat only as a first level character. You may not take more than one
Lunar feat.

[sonofzeal]

Keith Baker, who cannot be trusted with a spoon, offers us a way around that particular problem.

.............

...

.......

I'm gonna go over here now, m'kay?

[Ernir]

I'll do Fighter, Knight, Monk and Paladin.

At once.



Allaria the Peacekeeper, Human Knight 5/Marshal 1/Passive Way Monk 2/Zhentarim Fighter 9/Paladin 3

The short of it: She deals a few hundred points of (nonlethal) damage per charge, can make enemies attack her, she is very difficult to damage with weapons, she can demoralize as a swift action that causes enemies to cower, and she can trip, bull rush and sunder on the same attack and be decent at each of them. She adds her Charisma bonus to saves, Test of Mettle DCs, opposed combat checks and naturally her intimidation checks.

The longer: Feat chains/class feature combos in use:

Spoiler

Show

Test of Mettle + Vow of Nonviolence [Flaw]. Vow of Peace [Flaw], Starmantle Cloak + Evasion. Increases Test of Mettle DC by 4, increases AC. Any weapons used against her are likely to break, and never deal full damage.

Jotunbrud [Human] + Improved Trip [Monk 2] + Improved Trip [Fighter 1] + Knock-Down [Level 9] + Knock-Back [Level 18] + Art of War. If she hits it, it gets knocked down, and eventually knocked back way out into charging range again. Gets her Charisma modifier and a +4 from the Jotunbrud feat on the opposed checks.

Mounted Combat [Knight 2], Ride-by Attack [Knight 5], Leadership/Dragon Cohort/Wild Cohort [Level 6]. Gets you a decent mount and a way to use it.

Power Attack [Level 3] + Shock Trooper [Fighter 4] + Combat Brute [Fighter 6] + Leap Attack [level 12] + Spirited Charge [Fighter 8] + Valorous Lance + Rhino's Rush (in wand chamber). Charge damage.

Skill Focus: Intimidate [Fighter 3], Imperious Command [Level 15], Swift Intimidation + Never Outnumbered. Causes enemies to cower, with a ludicrously high DC to resist.

Issues I see with the build:

• The Test of Mettle DC is likely to be in the mid-20's by 20th level. This is too low.
• She can do a lot of things over the course of the levels, but they need to be prioritized. The feats could probably be rearranged a bit better so the chains are completed more or less one at a time, rather than all at once as the current build does it (I just made sure they all fit).
• The necessity of dealing nonlethal damage. I am not even sure how legal it is to trigger Knock-Down and Knockback with it. The VoN + VoPeace combo is the part of the build I am least happy about, but without it her Test of Mettle DC drops by another 4, and her resistance to melee damage is reduced.
• I made her qualify for Knockback via the Jotunbrud feat. This is not legal by RAW.
• Has Leadership or similar, which is such an easy crutch. I still didn't count on cheesing it out, I just want a Griffon or something that won't die in one hit.

What I see as the build's strengths:

• Flexible. It consists of many, mostly independent parts. One can be left out for a feat chain of your choice.
• Options in combat. I think this is as versatile as a non-ToB melee character gets (damage, tripping, (effective) bull rushing, intimidation, forced tanking). The only combat-related action I miss is grapple.
• Enough damage to one-shot most things, and a demoralize DC to fear. (Pun not intended)
• Hard to take down for a melee character. Hilariously difficult to kill in melee combat, and I expect the saving throws to be at least in the mid-twenties to mid-thirties near the end.

[dspeyer]

It seems to me that this uses knight and fighter in key ways, but doesn't really get to the essence of monk or paladin.

Also, how are you doing nonlethal damage? Are you just taking the -4 penalty?

And you can just buy a griffon without using the leadership feat. I suppose owning an int 5 creature might not be exalted and paladinish.

[sonofzeal]

Also, how are you doing nonlethal damage? Are you just taking the -4 penalty?

There's an exalted feat for that. "Nonlethal Substition" I think? Too lazy to check. =P

[NoldorForce]

Where does Bloodstorm Blade fall on the tier system? Additionally, is there any known way to make Blood Wind effectively permanent? (Blood Wind is that spell that turns your natural weapons into thrown weapons.)

Edit: My intent is to make some quirky mishmash involving Monk, Fighter, Bloodstorm Blade, possibly Warshaper (natural weapons), and possibly Barbarian (easy pounce) for a character that does all sorts of quirky Shock Trooper effects...while at range.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Where does Bloodstorm Blade fall on the tier system?

Additionally, is there any known way to make Blood Wind effectively permanent? (Blood Wind is that spell that turns your natural weapons into thrown weapons.)

Bloodstorm Blade is much better than Tier 5... probably a solid Tier 3. Heck, it can almost end up a 2.5, seeing how badly it can be abused.

If you want natural weapons thrown, then you need Kensai, and augment your unarmed attacks with the Throwing enhancement. That seems the most logical way to go about doing it.

By the way, there's been some AWESOME entries so far, but my work schedule lately is crap. I will update the OP with all valid submissions tomorrow afternoon.

[Ernir]

It seems to me that this uses knight and fighter in key ways, but doesn't really get to the essence of monk or paladin.

Paladin? It's a knight riding around on a shiny beast, protecting the innocent and charging the ebil.
I think the Paladin class is awfully lacking of defining class abilities after level 5, anyway. And the level 5 part I replicate with the Leadership feat.

Monk... well, you got me. The only reason it's there is because I thought getting 13 Int for Combat Expertise could be difficult under most PBs.

Also, how are you doing nonlethal damage? Are you just taking the -4 penalty?

Merciful weapon was my thought.

And you can just buy a griffon without using the leadership feat. I suppose owning an int 5 creature might not be exalted and paladinish.

You can, it's just very very fragile that way.

[NoldorForce]

Bloodstorm Blade is much better than Tier 5... probably a solid Tier 3. Heck, it can almost end up a 2.5, seeing how badly it can be abused.

If you want natural weapons thrown, then you need Kensai, and augment your unarmed attacks with the Throwing enhancement. That seems the most logical way to go about doing it.

Might the Necklace of Natural Attacks (Savage Species) work? (Though I still need a way to emulate Lightning Ricochet, hmm...)

[Ertier]

Currently working on a gear-oriented Expert that buffs, has the powers of a combat oriented sorcerer, hundreds of minions and is practically immune to physical attack as long as one of his allies is standing. Viable level 1 - 20, though building as a level 20. Early levels surround scrolls and other minor magic items, as well as serving as a bit of a skill monkey. Mid levels reinforce combat prowess and later levels make him a pain in the ass to any enemies.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Might the Necklace of Natural Attacks (Savage Species) work? (Though I still need a way to emulate Lightning Ricochet, hmm...)

Lightning Ricochet, I believe, is only Blodstorm Blade 4 or 5, so you can still squeeze it in, if you take nothing else but Tier 5 levels. Might be able to qualify with feats for maneuvers and stances.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Currently working on a gear-oriented Expert that buffs, has the powers of a combat oriented sorcerer, hundreds of minions and is practically immune to physical attack as long as one of his allies is standing. Viable level 1 - 20, though building as a level 20. Early levels surround scrolls and other minor magic items, as well as serving as a bit of a skill monkey. Mid levels reinforce combat prowess and later levels make him a pain in the ass to any enemies.

UMD cheese and Diplomancy are both on the known cheese list, if that is where you are going. Leadership is also on the known cheese list

[Kelpstrand]

Paladin:

Open up those DMGs to page 204, mounts. Challenge Rating for mounts should be 3 less than Character level, or 4 less if it can fly.

Well let's see. At for example, level 15, a Paladin could have some sort of CR 11 Mount, such as a a Young Adult Copper Dragon.

Oh yeah, and because it's Paladin Mount, it get's +8 bonus HD, which as per the advancement table means a 25HD Mature Adult Copper Dragon with 9th level Sorcerer casting, and ranked at CR 17.

Muhahaha. Paladin is go. Truenamer coming up later.

[NoldorForce]

Lightning Ricochet, I believe, is only Blodstorm Blade 4 or 5, so you can still squeeze it in, if you take nothing else but Tier 5 levels. Might be able to qualify with feats for maneuvers and stances.

Oh, I know that. (I have the class book open right here.) The issue is simply that it either forces me to search for another source of pounce (besides Lion Totem Barbarian) or forces out the warblade level that'd otherwise be used for Bloodstorm Blade prerequisites.

Essentially, it reduces my options further down the line; finding an easier way out is thus helpful.

Edit: Come to think of it, where's Shiba Protector on the tier system? (Oriental Adventures, page 222.) Because Fighter/Barbarian/Bloodstorm Blade/Warshaper/Shiba Protector might work. Finally, is Manipulate Form permitted if it's ONLY used for the size increase? (There's also Enlarge Person + Permanency and such, but this has the advantage of being permanent.)

[tyckspoon]

Incarnum are not considered to be Tier 5 or worse. You can use them to augment, but not as a base class.

Soulborn? With bonus style points for use of Incarnate Blade or Incarnum Champion.

[mabriss lethe]

what about the paladin variants in unearthed arcana? Are they considered on par with the core paladin, or are they completely out of bounds for this exercise? (Kinda have my eye set on a Paladin of Tyranny.) So here he goes.


Civil Simon
LE human Paladin of Tyranny 11/Monk3/Fighter 6 (Simon is pretty much meant to be leveled in exactly this order.)

Feats: Death Devotion(human), Evil Devotion(1),Power Attack(3) ,Battle Blessing (6), Profane Life leech (9), Extra Turning* (Sword of the Arcane Order if allowed (12), Divine Vigor(15), Divine Might (18), Stunning Fist (monk1), Combat reflexes (monk2), Robilar's Gambit (f1), Improved bull rush (f2), Shock Trooper (f4), Rapid stunning (f6)(not all of these are choice feats, I'm sure there are some better ones out there.)

Simon always has *something* to do in a battle. At early levels, he relies on his devotion feats to give some quick buffs to his party and some quick debuffs to his foes (or outright kill some of them.) or maybe snag a wand of cure light wounds for backup asap. Once he gets to 4th and can cast spelsl/rebuke undead, he adds another layer to his arsenal. 6th sees him able to effectively quicken all of his spells via battle blessing and then he expands on the things he can do with his rebuke attempts.

At some point it's not out of the question for Simon to go commoner hunting until he finds one that he drops with his death devotion. When that commoner 1 comes back the next night as a wight, he can start working on an army of the undead at his command via rebuke.

Even when he's not using his neat tricks, he's a walking debuff zone with his aura of despair, and isn't too shabby of a fighter, armed or not, armored or not.

None of this even begins to account for his equipment, which can drastically expand his combat options with the use of things like Belts of battle and ToB maneuver items,