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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Sudden Strike! (3.5 DnD)

    Another random and fairly silly question from me, I'm afraid.

    I'm trying to figure out the best way to reliably use the ninja ability "Sudden Strike", which basically does sneak attack damage but ONLY when your opponent is denied its Dex-to-AC during your attack/Flatfooted (flanking doesn't count! ONLY lacking the Dex-to-AC makes your target vulnerable to sudden strike).

    What are reliable ways of denying your opponent his dexterity bonus?

    All books are available, though I would personally prefer avoiding Tome of Battle (just because I don't think anyone in my circle uses it and I don't want to spring it on them with no warning). I would also like ways focusing on class features/prestige classes/skills and skill tricks/feats rather than casting, though if there are good casting bonuses/gish builds that allow this, that would be pretty cool. Especially if they let me take fire shurikens.

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    Default Re: Sudden Strike! (3.5 DnD)

    Invisibility. Hiding in Plain Sight. Basically, attacking without the opponent detecting you. That and striking first on the first round of combt. It's like Sneak Attack except can't be used while Flanking. Sneak Attack (and Rogue in general) is so much better a Ninja than the Ninja-class.
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    Default Re: Sudden Strike! (3.5 DnD)

    i recomend going some sort of range attack it will be more reliable and if you can find a way to stay invis you should be good or for a ninja to boost wisdom so he has more invis/perday... also with the ninjas invisible ability multiple attacks do not break it...
    so rapid shot and high bab is good.
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Sudden Strike! (3.5 DnD)

    What about feint?

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    Default Re: Sudden Strike! (3.5 DnD)

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    Invisibility. Hiding in Plain Sight. Basically, attacking without the opponent detecting you. That and striking first on the first round of combat. It's like Sneak Attack except can't be used while Flanking. Sneak Attack (and Rogue in general) is so much better a Ninja than the Ninja-class.
    Ninja has Ghost Step built in, which, it should be noted, doesn't end with attacks. You are invisible till the effect ends, whether that's one round later or 2 via Enduring Ki. So you can actually snipe fairly effectively as a Ninja with a Shortbow and Rapid Shot or going the Rapid Reload path with a Light Crossbow and deal slightly more respectable damage, since they aren't proficient with composite bows anyways. They probably don't have the Strength to take advantage of it if they did.

    Now, this isn't to say that Ninja doesn't have it's problems (no Evasion till late? no Uncanny Dodge at all? Really?) but Rogue is probably still better in most respects.

    EDIT: ninja'd.

    As for Feint, it's not really that great unless you're sure you're going to be facing humanoids for the most part, at least early on. The penalties are pretty harsh till you can pump Bluff at higher levels.

    A better skill to pump would be UMD to use wands of Grease to deny them Dex from being unsure of their footing. Unfortunately, UMD isn't a class skill for Ninjas (which makes little sense to me. Ninjas are supposed to be device users and not being able to is kinda lame in my book.)

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    Last edited by Cieyrin; 2009-10-19 at 12:14 PM.
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    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Sudden Strike! (3.5 DnD)

    Feinting is an option, but it's a really inefficient one. If you don't have Improved Feint, you can only do it once every two rounds, and even if you do, it will still only get you a single attack. Just about the only way to make feinting worth it is to take the Invisible Blade prestige class from Complete Warrior (which eventually gets to feint as a free action) AND the Surprising Riposte feat from Drow of the Underdark, which makes your opponent flat-footed for the whole round if you hit them after feinting against them. Pretty much a poor choice in general, especially when you take into consideration the fact that Invisible Blade is a really expensive class in terms of prereq feats.
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    Default Re: Sudden Strike! (3.5 DnD)

    Yeah. If you ignore the errata saying that the Invisible Blade can only use the free action bluff once per round, it's more viable, but that's a houserule.

    There's the Acrobatic Backstab skill trick from Complete Scoundrel, which lets you count an enemy as flat-footed if you tumble through his space, but it's once per encounter and doesn't let you get a full attack. If you're willing to use Tome of Battle, the Cloak of Deception maneuver lets you make your opponent flat-footed as a swift action (so you get a full attack).
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    Default Re: Sudden Strike! (3.5 DnD)

    O forgot... flick of the wrist gives you a flatfooted attack once a round
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    Default Re: Sudden Strike! (3.5 DnD)

    Quote Originally Posted by RagnaroksChosen View Post
    O forgot... flick of the wrist gives you a flatfooted attack once a round
    and only once per enemy IIRC
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    Default Re: Sudden Strike! (3.5 DnD)

    Quote Originally Posted by RagnaroksChosen View Post
    O forgot... flick of the wrist gives you a flatfooted attack once a round
    1/encounter. That's a Skill trick, remember?

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    Default Re: Sudden Strike! (3.5 DnD)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfire Titan View Post
    1/encounter. That's a Skill trick, remember?
    flick of the wrist is a feat
    Quote Originally Posted by sonofzeal View Post
    Lower levels arcane spells are usually a drag, but lower level psionic powers are often just higher ones waiting to be augmented.

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    Default Re: Sudden Strike! (3.5 DnD)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfire Titan View Post
    1/encounter. That's a Skill trick, remember?

    Negative...

    Its once per round, per opponent, per combat.


    Your thinking of hidden blade!
    Last edited by RagnaroksChosen; 2009-10-19 at 12:46 PM.
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    Default Re: Sudden Strike! (3.5 DnD)

    Quote Originally Posted by RagnaroksChosen View Post
    Negative...

    Its once per round, per opponent, per combat.


    Your thinking of hidden blade!

    Nevertheless, I think you can combine them, and add an ambush feat tha allow you to SS the next round.

    So, if you start stealth with one attack, or with this feat, you could grant yourself the SS full attack in the next round. Sum with acrobatic backstab and you could reach 3-6 rounds of SS.

    How optimal this could be depends from the power level of the group, I guess. Of course you swear twice than a rogue to slaughter someone, but I've to admit that the satisfation is maybe bigger

    I suppose you should put your hand on any effect able to blind or add similar effects on the enemy. Dip in shadow hand could help, IIRC.

    Blurstrike Weapons could help, too.
    Last edited by Kaiyanwang; 2009-10-19 at 12:59 PM.
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    Default Re: Sudden Strike! (3.5 DnD)

    Anyone remember Grease and Sleet Storm? 5 ranks balance or Sudden Strike.

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    Default Re: Sudden Strike! (3.5 DnD)

    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck_II View Post
    Anyone remember Grease and Sleet Storm? 5 ranks balance or Sudden Strike.
    I mentioned UMDing wands of Grease earlier, actually. 0_o

    As for the ambush feat, it takes out a pretty significant amount of sneak dice to keep them vulnerable, so your mileage may vary on how worth it that is. Getting 5d6 sneak on one attack is probably better than 1d6 sneak across 2 or 3 attacks. Plus, it says you may sneak attack in the next round, not keep sneaking this round if you lose invis or whatever allowed you to, so it's a judgement call there, too.
    Last edited by Cieyrin; 2009-10-19 at 01:45 PM.
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Sudden Strike! (3.5 DnD)

    As for Prestige Classes, there is the Shadow Blade from Tome of Magic. Can't remember much of it, except thinking it was a more combat oriented version of Shadow Dancer.

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    Default Re: Sudden Strike! (3.5 DnD)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cieyrin View Post
    I mentioned UMDing wands of Grease earlier, actually. 0_o

    As for the ambush feat, it takes out a pretty significant amount of sneak dice to keep them vulnerable, so your mileage may vary on how worth it that is. Getting 5d6 sneak on one attack is probably better than 1d6 sneak across 2 or 3 attacks. Plus, it says you may sneak attack in the next round, not keep sneaking this round if you lose invis or whatever allowed you to, so it's a judgement call there, too.

    Whats the ambush feat?
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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Sudden Strike! (3.5 DnD)

    Huh...I didn't realize that ghost step kept you invisible after attacks. Doesn't that mean that every attack you make against an opponent while under the influence of ghost step means that you can apply sudden strike dice to it?

    Sorry, I am still new at mechanics.

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    Default Re: Sudden Strike! (3.5 DnD)

    Someone was making a dual crossbow build a while back that used sudden strike. Dual hand crossbows+sudden strike+ghost step/improved invisibility+crossbow sniper (sneak attack up to 60')+ usual relaod tricks. Sudden strike on your whole full attack at decent range as long as they can't see invisibilty.
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    Default Re: Sudden Strike! (3.5 DnD)

    Quote Originally Posted by AtwasAwamps View Post
    Huh...I didn't realize that ghost step kept you invisible after attacks. Doesn't that mean that every attack you make against an opponent while under the influence of ghost step means that you can apply sudden strike dice to it?

    Sorry, I am still new at mechanics.
    yes yes it does.
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Sudden Strike! (3.5 DnD)

    Just got to the book, and the Shadowblade isn't really any better then just going full ninja and using ghost step.

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    Default Re: Sudden Strike! (3.5 DnD)

    Shadow Blade is a feat in ToB; are you thinking of the Shadow Sun Ninja?

    I don't really know how to use that class. It's cool, but it's really bizarre and I feel like it would be really hard to actually play one.

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    Default Re: Sudden Strike! (3.5 DnD)

    Marbles also deny dex to AC unless 5 ranks in tumble and are cost-effective. I'm not sure where they're listed, though. Might be dragon magazine.
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    Default Re: Sudden Strike! (3.5 DnD)

    There are marbles in the Arms and Equipment Guide.
    Shadowblade is from Tome of Magic. It's pretty weak, ya.
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    Default Re: Sudden Strike! (3.5 DnD)

    Just wanted to point this out- any type of concealment renders your SS or SA damage useless.
    You might want to talk to your DM about altering that rule- I know I wouldn't be happy if one of my main class features was rendered useless by a single spell.

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    Default Re: Sudden Strike! (3.5 DnD)

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrono22 View Post
    Just wanted to point this out- any type of concealment renders your SS or SA damage useless.
    You might want to talk to your DM about altering that rule- I know I wouldn't be happy if one of my main class features was rendered useless by a single spell.
    It's no different than a fighter being rendered useless by "Fly."
    Quote Originally Posted by sonofzeal View Post
    Lower levels arcane spells are usually a drag, but lower level psionic powers are often just higher ones waiting to be augmented.

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    Default Re: Sudden Strike! (3.5 DnD)

    Quote Originally Posted by jokey665 View Post
    It's no different than a fighter being rendered useless by "Fly."
    Except, of course, that a fighter might be able to fly himself. In which case he's back to normal.. but if both the ninja/rogue and his opponent have concealment, the ninja/rogue is SOL.

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    Default Re: Sudden Strike! (3.5 DnD)

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrono22 View Post
    Except, of course, that a fighter might be able to fly himself. In which case he's back to normal.. but if both the ninja/rogue and his opponent have concealment, the ninja/rogue is SOL.
    If the fighter can find a way to fly the ninja/rogue can find a way to true see.
    Quote Originally Posted by sonofzeal View Post
    Lower levels arcane spells are usually a drag, but lower level psionic powers are often just higher ones waiting to be augmented.

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    Default Re: Sudden Strike! (3.5 DnD)

    Quote Originally Posted by jokey665 View Post
    If the fighter can find a way to fly the ninja/rogue can find a way to true see.
    True seeing doesn't do squat against smoke or mist...

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    Default Re: Sudden Strike! (3.5 DnD)

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrono22 View Post
    True seeing doesn't do squat against smoke or mist...
    gust of wind?
    Quote Originally Posted by sonofzeal View Post
    Lower levels arcane spells are usually a drag, but lower level psionic powers are often just higher ones waiting to be augmented.

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