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    Default [3.5]Making large groops of mooks threatening->improving the mob template!


    The zergs show that quantity has a quality of it's own.


    Intro
    Well, as any D&D player may have noticed, it's really hard to make large number of small enemies threaten players once they start reaching higher levels.

    It would be really cool if you could put your 10th level party against a hundred level 1 orc warriors, but the batle would be really one sided as the casters fly and drop nukes and the orcs can, at best, hit the party members on nat 20s, plus no sane DM wants to roll attacks, saves and iniatives for one hundred orcs, not to mention the models.

    And the players wouldn't even get experience.

    The good news is that DMG 2 gave us the mob template, wich turns that group of commoners into actualy something dangerous.

    The bad news is that, like everything else in DMG2, it kinda sucks. Ok, it's probably the best thing in the book, and the only reason any D&D player should bother reading it, but the template itself really could use some work. It's a great idea and so I decided to properly polish it.

    So I present you:
    Mobs(template)
    An angry mob represents a group of creatures that band togheter with a single destructive mentality. Like killing someone or taking down a city.

    A mob is treated as a single entity similar to a swarm,
    except that it is made of larger creatures. A mob can be
    composed of Small, Medium, or Large creatures, but all
    the individual creatures must be of the same type. A mob
    that incorporates a crowd of goblins and a crowd of chokers
    is best modeled by two separate mobs.

    “Mob” is an acquired template that can be added to any
    group of Small, Medium, or Large creatures who choose to form a mob. A mob uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.

    Unless noted otherwise, all of the mob abilities are ex abilities.

    Resumed version:

    Spoiler
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    Size: dependant on the number of members. Large ones count as four and small ones count as half. Mobs have reach as the base creature.
    8-20: large
    21-37: huge
    38-68: gargantuan
    69-128: colossal

    Other creatures can move across a mob whitout troubles, and the mob can move over creatures, causing attacks of oportuny for movement. Mobs do attacks of oportunity as their base creature does, except that they have no limit to the number of aoos they may perform per turn. Mobs can change their shape at will as long as their area remains the same and pass trough any passage large enough to allow passage of their composing inidividuals.

    HD:Equal to the number of members. Mobs breack up at 0 hp.

    Speed:
    reduce by 10

    The following remain unchanged from the base creature, but apply the mob's size modifier: AC, grapple

    The following remain unchanged from the base creature:
    Iniative, BAB, saves, physical stats, skills, attack options that don't demand an activation like poison, and any ability that's based on the total number of HD of the creature

    Charisma, intelegence and wisdom change to 10.

    Mob damage: die damage of the weapon most common on the mob, increased to the new size, and multiplied by the following factor based on the mob's size. Apply strenght modifier before multiplier.

    1/2 BAB:Don't multiply
    3/4 BAB: multiply by 2
    Full BAB:multiply by 3

    Armor and shield bonuses count as DR against all mob attacks.


    Mob attack options:


    Mob up:
    mobs automaticaly deal mob damage to all creatures in the same area of the mob at the end of the mob's turn, whitout need of any action. It may also choose to attack objects whitin it's reach as a free action at the end of their turn.

    Voley:Standard action, single target or area based on mob size. Uses mob's ranged weapons range. Ref save for half damage of 10+mob's dex+mob's BAB.
    If the mob has enough BAB it can do iterative attacks as a fullround action, but only against a single target. Range increment penalties apply to the save DC.

    Large:Can't use area attack.
    Huge-5 radius circle.
    Gargantuan-10 radius circle.
    Colossal-20 radius circle.

    Creatures hit by a volley get can't move next turn and drop twice the damage they've taken in feets if they're flying. A sucessfull save means hit creatures move at half speed next turn and drop the damage taken in feets if flying.

    Volleys cannot be used if the mob has ungrappled enemies inside of it.


    Mob grapple:
    as normal grapple, but creatures who are caught by the mob take mob damage instead of unarmed damage, and the mob can never be grappled itself. It can also carry grappled creatures at it's full speed. A mob who's grappling a target never takes any penalty for grappling.

    Trample:
    The mob must start and end it's turn away from the creature, passing over it somewhere in between. Damage 2d6+1,5 str modifier of the mob, reflex DC 13+mob's size bonus+mob's strenght modifier for half damage. Enemies can choose to make an aoo instead of the save. Only smaller creatures than the mob are affected.


    Mob mind:
    A mob cannot use any special ability that demands an activation like spells and breath attacks. It can still use abilities that work automaticaly such as poison, improved grappled, swallow whole, gaze attacks ect. Use the base creature HD for DCs

    Mobs can still use skills as normal.


    Mob Anatomy:
    Immune to criticals, precision damage and spells/effects that don't deal damage and/or don't outright kill a creature.

    Don't affected by flanking, bullrush, overrun, trip or grapple

    If a mob fails a save against a spell/effect that would normally kill/incapapacitate a creature, such as disintrigate, slay living or wail of the bashee, it instead gains one negative level for each creature that would be killed by that spell/effect. Large creatures count as 4 and small creatures count as half.

    Mobs take +50% damage from area damage spells.
    Mobs take double damage from melee attacks from creatures with cleave.
    Mobs take quadruple damage from melee attacks from creatures with greater cleave.

    Feats: Same as the base creature; all mobs gain Improved
    Bull Rush and Improved Overrun as bonus feats.

    Challenge Rating:
    Large:3, or +2 if the base creature’s CR is 2 or higher.
    Huge:5, or +2 if the base creature’s CR is 4 or higher.
    Gargantuan:8, or +2 if the base creature’s CR is 7 or higher.
    Colossal:12, or +2 if the base creature’s CR is 11 or higher.


    New:
    Unit, a more organized form of the mob.

    Leaded Mob

    Detailed version

    Size and Type:
    Spoiler
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    Size is based on the number of creatures forming the mob. Large creatures count as four, and small creatures count as half. It is assumed that the creatures press against each other, and thus they fill less space than they would fill as individuals. There must be at least 8 members to form a mob. Mobs with more members than the maximum size should be represented as multiple mobs. The mob’s type remains unchanged from the base creature.

    8-20: large
    21-37: huge
    38-68: gargantuan
    69-128: colossal


    Hit Dice:
    Spoiler
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    A mob has a single pool of Hit Dice and hit
    points. Like regular HP, it's an abstraction of both the endurance of the members of the mob and their will to destroy whatever it's on their path.

    The mob has HD equal to the number of composing members (with large creatures counting as 4 and small creatures counting as half).

    Reducing a mob to 0 hit points or lower causes it to
    breack up (with two thirds of it's members killed or disabled, the remaining undamaged, but now counting as simple individuals, and probably wanting to run away for their lifes), though damage taken until that point does not degrade its ability to attack or resist attack. Mobs are never staggered or reduced to a dying state by damage.

    However, for abilities based on the number of HD, like SR, the mob uses the number of HD of the base creature.


    Initiative: As the most common among the creatures composing the mob.

    Speed:
    A mob’s speed is 10 feet slower than that of the
    base creature.

    Armor Class:
    As the base creatures, with the respective penalty for the new size(-1 for large, -2 for huge, -4 for gargantuan, -8 for colossal)
    If the creatures have diferent kinds of AC, use the most common.


    Base Attack:
    Use the most common BAB of the members of the mob. Don't recalculate based on the new HD.

    Grapple: Use the base creature attack bonus, modified for the mob's size, and as appropriate for its Strength modifier.

    Attack/Full Attack: Mobs can’t make standard attacks. In return, they receive three special attack options:


    Mob up

    Spoiler
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    A mob automaticaly deals damage to any creature whose space it occupies at the end of its move, with no attack roll needed. Mob attacks ignore concealmentand cover. A mob’s attacks are nonmagical, unless the
    base creature’s attacks are considered magical. Damage reduction applies to mob up attacks.

    The damage amount and type is based on the damage the most common kind of individual of the mob would normaly deal, but multiplied by a factor based on it's BAB and increase the damage HD acording to the new size.

    1/2 BAB:Don't multiply
    3/4 BAB: multiply by 2
    Full BAB:multiply by 3

    For example, a mob of 50 orc warriors with longswords would deal 12d6+6 damage to any creature inside it every turn.

    The mob can also choose to deal that damage to any unatended object it is touching. So a mob could eventualy bring down walls and houses.



    Volley

    Spoiler
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    If at least half of the members of the mob have similar ranged weapons, they can fire at the same time at an area or target as a standard action. The mob cannot fire if it has nongrappled enemies on it's midst.

    Range is the same as the ranged weapon more common in the mob. Damage is as the mob up attack, but based on the ranged weapon the mob is using. Range increments give a bonus on the defender's save of +2 for each range increment.

    Single target: as mob up attack damage, enemy can make a reflex save equal to the mob's BAB+ 10+mob's dex modifier for half damage. If using a fullround action the mob can do iterative attacks, but whitout the -5 penalty.

    Area attack: A mob of huge size or larger, as a fullround action, can deal mob up damage in an area based on their own size. Reflex of 10+BAB+mob's dex modifier for half.

    Huge-5 radius circle.
    Gargantuan-10 radius circle.
    Colossal-20 radius circle.

    Creatures who fail their saves against a volley of either kind are pinned down by the projectiles, and cannot move next turn. If flying, they drop down twice as much feets as they took damage.

    Even if they make their saves, their speed is reduced to half in the next turn, and if flying they drop a number of feets equal to the damage taken.



    Mob grapple: a mob can grapple as a standard action, altough it cannot be grappled back. Sucessfull rolls from the oponent just mean it managed to don't be brought down by the mob. Instead of unarmed damage, the mob deals the mob up attack damage to grappled oponents as they are mercyless steped over by the angry individuals. The mob can carry grappled oponents at it's full speed.

    Armor and shield bonus work as DR against all mob damage.

    Space/Reach:
    Large-10 by 10 feets square
    Huge-15 by 15 feets square.
    Gargantuan-20 by 20 feets square.
    Colossal-30 by 30 feets square.

    A mob's reach is the same of the base creature, and it's aoos work exactly as aoos from that creature, except the mob can make as much aoos per turn as it wants. It's height is the average of the composing individuals.

    In order to attack, it moves into an opponent’s space, which provokes an attack of opportunity. It can occupy the same space as a creature,
    since it tramples over and moves around its victim. A mob
    can move through squares occupied by enemies, and vice
    versa, without impediment, although a mob provokes an
    attack of opportunity if it does so. A mob can move through
    openings large enough for its component creatures.
    The area occupied by mobs is completely shapeable,
    though the mob usually remains in contiguous squares.


    Mob mind:

    Spoiler
    Show

    A mob’s mentality is fueled by emotion;
    as a result, the individual creatures that make up
    the mob are unable to use any attack options that require
    actions, such as breath weapons, spell-like abilities, and
    the like. If the base creature has attack options that affect
    the damage it deals (such as poison, energy drain, abilitydamage, improved grab, constrict, rend, or swallow whole),
    those special attacks function normally on any creature
    damaged by the mob. Attack options such as gaze weapons
    that function constantly continue to function normally.
    The save DCs for any of these attacks should be recalculated
    based on the mob’s Hit Dice.

    Mobs can still use skills as normal.

    In addition, mobs gain both of the following:
    Expert Grappler (Ex): A mob can maintain a grapple without
    penalty and still make attacks against other targets
    (normally, attacking other targets while grappling imposes
    a –20 penalty on grapple checks). A mob is never considered
    flat-footed while grappling.
    Trample (Ex): A mob that simply moves over a creature
    and doesn’t end its movement with that creature in one of
    its occupied squares can trample the creature. The creature must be at least one size smaller than the mob. A trampled creature takes damage equal to 2d6 points + 1,5 times the mob’s Strength modifi er. The victim can either make an attack of opportunity against the mob or make a Refl ex save (DC 13+mob's size bonus+the mob’s Str modifi er)to take half damage.


    Special Qualities:
    Spoiler
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    A mob retains all the special qualities
    of the base creature. In addition, it gains the following
    special quality.
    Mob Anatomy (Ex)
    : A mob has no clear front or back
    and no discernible anatomy, so it is not subject to critical
    hits or sneak attacks. A mob cannot be flanked, tripped,
    grappled, or bull rushed.

    However, unlike standard swarms, mobs are made up of relatively
    small numbers of individual creatures, so spells or
    effects that target specific numbers of creatures can have
    an effect on a mob. Each specific creature that is slain,
    disabled, or otherwise incapacitated by spells or effects
    that target specific creatures bestows one negative level
    on the mob.


    A mob that gains negative levels equal to its
    Hit Dice breaks up as if reduced to 0 hit points. Negative
    levels gained in this manner are not the result of negative
    energy (and thus cannot be blocked by death ward or
    removed by restoration), but never result in permanent
    level loss. A mob takes half again as much damage (+50%)
    from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash
    weapons and evocation spells.

    Characters with cleave deal double damage to a mob in melee. Characters with greater cleave deal quadruple damage to a mob in melee.




    Saves: A mob uses the same saving throws as the base creature, but failed saves never result in anything worst than negative levels as it loses members. Effects that don't instantly disable a creature (like blindness or curse) have no effect whatsoever on the mob.


    Abilities: A mob’s abilities are the same as the base
    creature, except that its Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma
    scores drop to 10. If the base creature’s Intelligence,
    Wisdom, or Charisma scores are already lower than 10,
    they do not change.
    Skills: Same as the base creature; do not recalculate
    based on the mob’s new Hit Dice. The mob’s new Intelligence,
    Wisdom, or Charisma scores might grant some
    skills different modifiers.
    Feats: Same as the base creature; all mobs gain Improved
    Bull Rush and Improved Overrun as bonus feats.

    Challenge Rating: Based on size:

    Large:3, or +2 if the base creature’s CR
    is 2 or higher.
    Huge:5, or +2 if the base creature’s CR
    is 4 or higher.
    Gargantuan:8, or +2 if the base creature’s CR
    is 7 or higher.
    Colossal:12, or +2 if the base creature’s CR
    is 11 or higher.


    Sample mobs.

    Goblin raiding team
    Spoiler
    Show
    CR 3
    NE large humanoid (mob of 16 goblin warriors):
    Init +5;
    AC 12, touch 10, flat-footed 11(-1 size, +1 dex, +2 armor)
    36 HP (8d8)
    Fort +2, Ref +1, Will +0
    Speed 20 ft. (4 squares)
    Mob up with longswords (6d6-3) or shortbows (3d8-3, range 60 feet, ref DC 11, one volley if using fullround action)
    Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
    Base Atk +1; Grp +4
    Atk Options expert grappler, trample 2d6
    Abilities Str 8, Dex 12, Con 11, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10
    SQ mob anatomy
    Feats Improved Initiative, Improved
    Bull Rush, Improved Overrun
    Skills hide +1, move silently +5


    Hill giant stampede
    Spoiler
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    CR 12
    CE colossal giant (mob of 25 hill giants):
    Init +3;
    AC 13, touch 1, flat-footed 13(-8 size, -1 dex, +3 armor)
    850 HP (100d8+400)
    Fort +12, Ref +3, Will +4
    Speed 20 ft. (4 squares)
    Mob up with greatclubs (12d8+14) or rocks (12d6+14, range 120 feet, ref DC 18 for half, two volleys if using fullround action)
    Space 30 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
    Base Atk +9; Grp +32
    Atk Options expert grappler, trample 2d6
    Abilities: Str 25, Dex 8, Con 19, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10
    SQ mob anatomy
    Feats: Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack, Improved Sunder, Weapon Focus (greatclub)Improved Bull Rush, Improved Overrun
    Climb +7, Jump +7, Listen +3, Spot +6
    Last edited by Oslecamo; 2010-04-29 at 04:52 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: [3.5]Making large groops of mooks threatening->improving the mob template!

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    The bad news is that, like everything else in DMG2, it kinda sucks.
    Never mind that whole part in the beginning about helping identify the types of players at your table and how to integrate their play-styles and do your best to have a really fun game that everyone loves :P

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post

    Goblin raiding team
    Spoiler
    Show
    CR 3
    CN large humanoid (mob of 16 goblin warriors):
    Init +5;
    AC 12, touch 10, flat-footed 11(-1 size, +1 dex, +2 armor)
    36 HP (8d8)
    Fort +2, Ref +1, Will +0
    Speed 20 ft. (4 squares)
    Mob up with longswords (6d6-3) or shortbows (3d8-3, range 60 feet, ref DC 9, two volleys if using fullround action)
    Space 10 ft.; Reach 0 ft.
    Base Atk +8; Grp +12
    Atk Options expert grappler, trample 2d6
    Abilities Str 8, Dex 12, Con 11, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10
    SQ mob anatomy
    Feats Improved Initiative, Improved
    Bull Rush, Improved Overrun
    Skills hide +1, move silently +5
    Everything about this mob looks great except for one thing...The damage it does.

    Party level three even with good rolls The highest HP you're gonna have is a barbarian with 18 con raging that just happened to roll MAX hp for the last two levels and has the toughness and improved toughness feats
    total HP = 60.

    Now sure your saying that's alot of HP. That however is an EXTREME example. More than likely your players are average con, and average HP rolls.

    Which puts the average party members HP at around oh... I dunno 14-24.

    The average dice roll for damage from the goblin horde is 15. So I see a problem with the damage output of the goblin mob for a CR3 encounter. If this thing stays up for 2-3 rounds you can kiss the party goodbye cuz its TPK.


    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Hill giant stampede
    Spoiler
    Show

    CR 12
    CN colossal (mob of 25 hill giants):
    Init +3;
    AC 13, touch 1, flat-footed 13(-8 size, -1 dex, +3 armor)
    850 HP (100d8+400)
    Fort +12, Ref +3, Will +4
    Speed 20 ft. (4 squares)
    Mob up with greatclubs (12d8+14) or rocks (12d6+14, range 120 feet, ref DC 74 for half, four volleys if using fullround action)
    Space 30 ft.; Reach 0 ft.
    Base Atk +75; Grp +91
    Atk Options expert grappler, trample 2d6
    Abilities: Str 25, Dex 8, Con 19, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10
    SQ mob anatomy
    Feats: Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack, Improved Sunder, Weapon Focus (greatclub)Improved Bull Rush, Improved Overrun
    Climb +7, Jump +7, Listen +3, Spot +6
    At CR 12 this mob of hill giants damage is manageable but not for long. Forget it if the party takes 4 volleys of rocks though. 48d6+52 damage even an optimized HP Barb with tons of temp HP isn't going to live through that. Reflex DC 74 for half? 20th level characters have trouble can't make that! I'm not going to argue that there are definitely ways around a ranged attack like that... but that is a HUGE unmanageable amount of damage for a 12th level party.

    Now besides damage lets look at another problem...
    Average HP for a CR 12 creature is somewhere in the 200-300 mark. This CR 12 Challenge has 850HP!! Even with an AC of 13 this thing isn't going down before the party dies.

    In either case if I was playing and I saw these things I'd have my character run.

    I think you are REALLY on the mark with the rule updates however!

    Am I making sense? This is my first real review of something someone PEACHED. Also apologies if I'm coming on strong. I really like the idea of updating the mobs and making them usable!

  3. - Top - End - #3

    Default Re: [3.5]Making large groops of mooks threatening->improving the mob template!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lostfang View Post
    Everything about this mob looks great except for one thing...The damage it does.

    Party level three even with good rolls The highest HP you're gonna have is a barbarian with 18 con raging that just happened to roll MAX hp for the last two levels and has the toughness and improved toughness feats
    total HP = 60.

    Now sure your saying that's alot of HP. That however is an EXTREME example. More than likely your players are average con, and average HP rolls.

    Which puts the average party members HP at around oh... I dunno 14-24.

    The average dice roll for damage from the goblin horde is 15. So I see a problem with the damage output of the goblin mob for a CR3 encounter. If this thing stays up for 2-3 rounds you can kiss the party goodbye cuz its TPK.
    A good point, but since the goblin horde can only move at 20 base speed, and has pathetic AC and saves, the party can bring it down quite quickly. The barbarian will take almost half of their life with a single hit. If the barbarian has cleave, it has a decent chance of actualy one-shoting the mob. Alone. Then his three teammates will be doing something. The goblin party will have trouble holding togheter for more than 2 rounds.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lostfang View Post
    At CR 12 this mob of hill giants damage is manageable but not for long. Forget it if the party takes 4 volleys of rocks though. 48d6+52 damage even an optimized HP Barb with tons of temp HP isn't going to live through that. Reflex DC 74 for half? 20th level characters have trouble can't make that! I'm not going to argue that there are definitely ways around a ranged attack like that... but that is a HUGE unmanageable amount of damage for a 12th level party.
    Yeah, gotta work on the save. Probably going to reduce the BAB of the mob to that of the base creature as the saves, so the save is actualy doable.

    On the other hand, at level 12 it's more than expected that the party is moving around quickly, flying, or both.


    The giant mob moves at 20 walking speed!
    If I don't give it a good damage output, the party can easily kill it from afar.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lostfang View Post
    Now besides damage lets look at another problem...
    Average HP for a CR 12 creature is somewhere in the 200-300 mark. This CR 12 Challenge has 850HP!! Even with an AC of 13 this thing isn't going down before the party dies.
    Actualy, it is.

    Low AC means the melees can power attack for full for easily unleashing damage on the hundreds range. Low saves means the casters will easily nuke it to hell and back. A single cloudkill will make the mob lose 1d4x100 HP per turn. Actualy 1d6*100 per turn since it takes +50% damage from area attacks. That means it can die to a single 5th level spell in around 4 turns.



    Quote Originally Posted by Lostfang View Post
    In either case if I was playing and I saw these things I'd have my character run.

    I think you are REALLY on the mark with the rule updates however!
    Well yeah I use to play with more optimized groups, so this is suposed to be something that would be challenging at my table. Against less experienced players who tried to face the mobs head on, the mobs would probably shred them indeed, but against a party wich knows the right tricks the mob is more of an interesting challenge.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lostfang View Post
    Am I making sense? This is my first real review of something someone PEACHED. Also apologies if I'm coming on strong. I really like the idea of updating the mobs and making them usable!
    Yes you are. Quite a nice review for your first time.

    EDIT:
    Ok, reduced BAB and save DCs, but in return the mob volleys can now pin down creatures to try to prevent them from escaping from the slow advancing mob.
    Last edited by Oslecamo; 2009-10-22 at 04:48 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Making large groops of mooks threatening->improving the mob template!

    I like this. Even my (very unomptimised group) slaughters very large amounts of low-level enemies too easily.

    One thing: I don't get how the Mob up damage is calculated. Is the number of dice equal to increase in size times BAB? Wouldn't the orc mob have 3*3=9 dice then? (Also, doesn't longswords do d8's?)
    In the light of all your burning bridges, does the world seem like a warmer place to you?

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    Default Re: [3.5]Making large groops of mooks threatening->improving the mob template!

    It's damage die increase for size, wich follows the following system:

    1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6.

    A weapon or attack that deals 1d10 points of damage increases as follows: 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8.

    So an orc mob of 50 orcs means three increases.

    1d8 becomes 2d6 wich becomes 3d6 wich becomes 4d6.

    Then you multiply it by the BAB mob bonus, aka 3, and it becomes 12d6.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Making large groops of mooks threatening->improving the mob template!

    I'm going to take the stats and run with your goblin mob in about 2-3 sessions with my current group. One of them is a really good optimizer the others, not so much, but they still have well built characters. Well see how it goes and in a week or two I'll post up the results and if I ended up doing any tweaking of my own.

    I think that you are right, since I generally play at or DM for groups which only one or two people are good optimizers I look at this creature and weep for the party.

    With I group of full optimizers I think these creatures are closer to the CR you listed. (those hill giants are on steroids though ;) )

    EDIT: Oh yeah! If you run this, post up the results! I'm interested to see how it goes!
    Last edited by Ormagoden; 2009-10-23 at 08:38 AM. Reason: More infos

  7. - Top - End - #7

    Default Re: [3.5]Making large groops of mooks threatening->improving the mob template!

    I'll probably run it on my own group soon enough, so I guess I could post the results here indeed, and would be thankfull if you could report how the goblin mob turned out with your group.

    Notice that I edited the volley attack so that the DC is lower but creatures who fail it can't move next turn, and if they make the save they still move at half speed, to represent being "pinned down" by the rain of projectiles.
    Last edited by Oslecamo; 2009-10-23 at 08:54 AM.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Making large groops of mooks threatening->improving the mob template!

    My concerns with your implementation are as follows:

    1) It doesn't make sense to apply size modifiers to only one of the damage spectra [you've used it only with the mob up ability]. In fairness, it doesn't actually make sense to apply size modifiers to either because the weapons doing the cutting are still the same size.

    2) I'm not sure if you're aware that you've done this but by denying defence against the Mob Up attack, you're actually penalising armoured characters; this also applies to the the Volley ability to a lesser extent.

    I didn't understand this about the original Mob template and this one makes even less sense with the increased power of your mob's damage in melee [see comment 1 again].

    3) the Mob Grapple ability says that the Mob Up damage is used. It's physically impossible to swing a sword in a press: it's one of the reasons that shield and spear walls work. They should be doing some function of their unarmed damage unless the target is pinned.

    I wouldn't use this as is, mostly because Fighters have a hard enough time with swarms laughing at their puny armour, let alone bigger things.
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    Default Re: [3.5]Making large groops of mooks threatening->improving the mob template!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletmanalive View Post
    1) It doesn't make sense to apply size modifiers to only one of the damage spectra [you've used it only with the mob up ability]. In fairness, it doesn't actually make sense to apply size modifiers to either because the weapons doing the cutting are still the same size.
    The bigger the mob, the more people are pressing against you. The mob isn't static. It's members are literaly walking over the players and taking turns staving at them, and the more of them they are, the more cuts the player is geting.

    I would've used a multiplying factor for this, but then the damage would've scaled up too quickly. Increasing die size was the next best thing I remembered on how to increase the damage whitout doing it too fast.

    Anyway, the basis is that numbers should matter for a mob, so if you have a better idea for increasing the damage for the mob say it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletmanalive View Post
    2) I'm not sure if you're aware that you've done this but by denying defence against the Mob Up attack, you're actually penalising armoured characters; this also applies to the the Volley ability to a lesser extent.

    I didn't understand this about the original Mob template and this one makes even less sense with the increased power of your mob's damage in melee [see comment 1 again].
    Yeah, I realized this some hours ago, and I've been thinking of a way to implement it.

    Maybe make that armor bonus gives DR against the mob attacks
    , and actual DR is multiplied by four? This way an heavily armored character could last much longer in the middle of the mob than the squishy wizard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletmanalive View Post
    3) the Mob Grapple ability says that the Mob Up damage is used. It's physically impossible to swing a sword in a press: it's one of the reasons that shield and spear walls work. They should be doing some function of their unarmed damage unless the target is pinned.
    Shield and spear walls only work if you've got a wall formation.

    If you're grappled by a mob, you're surely not on a wall formation anymore. You're the one pshyically impossible of swinging a sword on the press, but the mob still has plenty of free hands.

    The sixteen goblins around you? Eight of them can now stab you even easier than before, while the other eight hold you down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletmanalive View Post
    I wouldn't use this as is, mostly because Fighters have a hard enough time with swarms laughing at their puny armour, let alone bigger things.
    Well, at least my swarm can actualy be damaged by the fighter, and even takes extra damage from cleave, while normal swarms take half damage from the fighter, or none at all.
    Last edited by Oslecamo; 2009-10-23 at 11:54 AM.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Making large groops of mooks threatening->improving the mob template!

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    The bigger the mob, the more people are pressing against you.
    Yeah, but if the mob takes up more than 3x3 squares, they can't all be pressing against you at once.

    Normally eight people surround. Even if they're not static and are pressed closer together, let's split the difference and say that no more than 12 people actually come near enough to you to take a swipe at you in any one round.

    This also lets you scale it up to allow it to be arbitrarily large without doing more damage (but they can be a threat to larger groups since they do damage to everyone whose squares they cover),

    Also, this could use the "shapeable" (any X^2 contiguous squares rather than XxX) rules from swarms.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Making large groops of mooks threatening->improving the mob template!

    Quote Originally Posted by Random832 View Post
    Yeah, but if the mob takes up more than 3x3 squares, they can't all be pressing against you at once.
    As I said, the mob members are moving around, taking turns attacking at you. They're not just surrounding you, they're walking over you, and when you kill one another steps forward to fill it's space.

    Quote Originally Posted by Random832 View Post
    Normally eight people surround. Even if they're not static and are pressed closer together, let's split the difference and say that no more than 12 people actually come near enough to you to take a swipe at you in any one round.

    This also lets you scale it up to allow it to be arbitrarily large without doing more damage (but they can be a threat to larger groups since they do damage to everyone whose squares they cover),
    But then they kinda become unable of being a threat to stronger foes in small numbers. Like, you know, PCs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Random832 View Post
    Also, this could use the "shapeable" (any X^2 contiguous squares rather than XxX) rules from swarms.
    It already has it.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Making large groops of mooks threatening->improving the mob template!

    I like the way the OP and the contributors put the rules until now, and how spells like confusion and stinking cloud are way more effective than a fireball at fighting the mob. Nice job.

    Also, priests and bards can be a lot scarier with the option of guiding a mob around, i guess. Funny how the traditional outfit of a cleric looks like mob control standard equipment (heavy armor, shield and mace).

    So, how do the mob mechanics would interact with something like the Fireshield spell? Is the grapple hindered in any way?
    Last edited by Slayn82; 2009-10-26 at 10:04 AM.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Making large groops of mooks threatening->improving the mob template!

    cool remix of the mob template.

    first off, i like that you gave this some flexibility in mob size and hit dice. that makes a lot of sense. i seem to recall that the official version was auto 30-hd gargantuan.

    second, you added some cool abilities like volley. nice touch. fair to mobs that have ranged capabilities.

    some gripes:

    the original was limited to large creatures at most. why couldn't you have a mob of storm giants?

    bab: this should really be higher, in my opinion. one of the points to a mob is to make a group of weak creatures challenging to high level characters. if that mob still only has a bab of +2, some of its usefulness is reduced. i'm not sure how to implement this though. the original version just used the hit dice of the mob as base; that seems like it could still work, except that you have tied some other abilities to bab that would now be unbalanced.

    armor as dr: you should spell this out for people that don't understand what you are talking about. i am assuming that you are referring to the UA variant.

    reach: mobs should have reach, in my opinion. as far as i was aware, the only reason why normal swarms don't have reach is because they are all made up of miniscule individuals. i don't remember if the official mob template had reach or not, but i would give it the reach of the component creatures.

    special attack options: why shouldn't a mob of half-dragons be able to use their breath weapons? granted, it would be difficult to figure out how to work this exactly, but it could make the difference between a mob of half dragons and a mob of goblins or something (besides strength bonuses, etc...).

    strength: should be higher. maybe even just give the size modifier, dependent upon the size of the group. the problem with keeping it the same as each individual is that it doesn't take into account the group. if they want to loot a temple, the dm now has to figure out the individual strength of each member in order to find out how much booty (that's right, i said it) they can carry away. if they want to pull an AD&D 2nd ed bend bars, lift gates roll, they fail, even if there are 12 of them that can pull at the same time, unless the dm is willing to treat them as individuals again, with aid another rolls and stuff––but that is one of the points of a mob, getting rid of individual elements. when dealing damage, they deal higher base damage because of their higher numbers, but their strength mod to damage is still the same as if only one was hitting (though you might have multiplied the whole thing, i can't remember). so they need a higher strength rating.

    saves: why should a mob be immune to mass charms, or the persuasive abilities of a friendly bard, etc? mobs are typically fairly easy to incite to violence, meaning that they are easy to manipulate. they might not be easy to control though...

    the word, "mob," inherently brings up the idea of a lack of discipline and order. this template could easily apply to disciplined units with just a few changes. first, give them their actual intelligence, wisdom, and charisma scores. keep them immune to the charm effects that i mentioned under saves. there might be other changes, but i can't think of any. this would just be the "military unit template," instead of the "mob template," with slightly different stats.

    there was more that i had bouncing around in my brain upon reading this, but i can't remember it all now.
    Last edited by Stycotl; 2009-10-26 at 12:44 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5]Making large groops of mooks threatening->improving the mob template!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lostfang View Post
    In either case if I was playing and I saw these things I'd have my character run.
    .. It's am mob of god knows how many hill giants. Even if I didn't know the rules I'd run. Hard. Fast. Far. With expeditious retreat.

    And that is kind of the point of mobs. I used the old one in cities to surround people. They are like semi-mobile CC. Now this would get even better, as a mob with these rules would actually be a challenge on it's own.

    What I suggest, however, is giving the mob a few attacks. Not one attack/round that deals gigantic damage. This way, armor as DR vs the mob might actually be useful, as it would get applied multiple times. Orc mob of 4d6 damage 3 times is much more manageable than one witht 1 time 12d6 damage.

    I also agree with Stycotl that the mob should get a str bonus, or a bonus to non-combat strength checks based on it's size.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Making large groops of mooks threatening->improving the mob template!

    Quote Originally Posted by Stycotl View Post
    cool remix of the mob template.
    Well, thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by Stycotl View Post
    first off, i like that you gave this some flexibility in mob size and hit dice. that makes a lot of sense. i seem to recall that the official version was auto 30-hd gargantuan.

    second, you added some cool abilities like volley. nice touch. fair to mobs that have ranged capabilities.
    Yeah, I wanted to make mobs more customizable and versatil than just running around the map dealing 5d6 damage and failing to grab PCs with freedom of movement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stycotl View Post
    the original was limited to large creatures at most. why couldn't you have a mob of storm giants?
    Later project. When you start piling up huge creatures, it isn't just a mindless mob anymore. It will be a force of nature wich will trample over walls of force themselves, start earthquakes and rain mountains over you.


    Quote Originally Posted by Stycotl View Post
    bab: this should really be higher, in my opinion. one of the points to a mob is to make a group of weak creatures challenging to high level characters. if that mob still only has a bab of +2, some of its usefulness is reduced. i'm not sure how to implement this though. the original version just used the hit dice of the mob as base; that seems like it could still work, except that you have tied some other abilities to bab that would now be unbalanced.
    Personaly, I don't think the mob's usefulness is that crippled from the lack of BAB. They still have a fat bonus to grapple, whitout however being auto-win against optimized PCs, and the DCs of the volley may be low, but they still hurt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stycotl View Post
    armor as dr: you should spell this out for people that don't understand what you are talking about. i am assuming that you are referring to the UA variant.
    Isn't it clear enough? If you have an armor bonus of +8 and a shield bonus of +2, you gain DR 10 against the mob attacks, since AC doesn't do anything to protect you from it, but it should.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stycotl View Post
    reach: mobs should have reach, in my opinion. as far as i was aware, the only reason why normal swarms don't have reach is because they are all made up of miniscule individuals. i don't remember if the official mob template had reach or not, but i would give it the reach of the component creatures.
    Hmm, now that you mention it, you're probably right on this point.


    Quote Originally Posted by Stycotl View Post
    special attack options: why shouldn't a mob of half-dragons be able to use their breath weapons? granted, it would be difficult to figure out how to work this exactly, but it could make the difference between a mob of half dragons and a mob of goblins or something (besides strength bonuses, etc...).
    Because when you've got twenty dragons all over each other, they're gonna have a really hard time properly breathing all at the same time.

    There's probably a way to adress this, but for now I'm focused on other points.


    Quote Originally Posted by Stycotl View Post
    strength: should be higher. maybe even just give the size modifier, dependent upon the size of the group. the problem with keeping it the same as each individual is that it doesn't take into account the group. if they want to loot a temple, the dm now has to figure out the individual strength of each member in order to find out how much booty (that's right, i said it) they can carry away. if they want to pull an AD&D 2nd ed bend bars, lift gates roll, they fail, even if there are 12 of them that can pull at the same time, unless the dm is willing to treat them as individuals again, with aid another rolls and stuff––but that is one of the points of a mob, getting rid of individual elements. when dealing damage, they deal higher base damage because of their higher numbers, but their strength mod to damage is still the same as if only one was hitting (though you might have multiplied the whole thing, i can't remember). so they need a higher strength rating.
    This is a mob. It means discoordination. They're not gonna pull the bar at the same time, because they're too busy screaming and waving weapons. Heck, how could they even all physically pull a window bar at the same time?

    They're gonna beat the crap out of the bar!
    The mob up damage is multiplied and increased, so a mob should be able to bypass most thing's DR easily. A mob doesn't open ways. They make them!

    Quote Originally Posted by Stycotl View Post
    saves: why should a mob be immune to mass charms, or the persuasive abilities of a friendly bard, etc? mobs are typically fairly easy to incite to violence, meaning that they are easy to manipulate. they might not be easy to control though...
    Working on this right now. Next post should be my "leaded mob" template.

    As for mass charms, treat them as disables. Someone who's charmed by the wizard will just get trampled over by the other companions. If too much people are charmed, the mob breacks. The whole mob mentality just disapears when too much people are in love with the wizard.


    Quote Originally Posted by Stycotl View Post
    the word, "mob," inherently brings up the idea of a lack of discipline and order. this template could easily apply to disciplined units with just a few changes. first, give them their actual intelligence, wisdom, and charisma scores. keep them immune to the charm effects that i mentioned under saves. there might be other changes, but i can't think of any. this would just be the "military unit template," instead of the "mob template," with slightly different stats.
    Yeah, after geting this to a nice clean state, I would use this as basis to making a "unit" template, with a lot of dudes working togheter with discipline.

    Amadi:
    Considering that the average of 4d6 is 14, a cleric with nonenchanted armor and shield would almost be immune to the mob! No, I want to keep the damage threatening, so even a heavily armoed character cannot afford to stay too long inside it.
    Last edited by Oslecamo; 2009-10-26 at 03:43 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Making large groops of mooks threatening->improving the mob template!

    Quote Originally Posted by Stycotl View Post
    bab: this should really be higher, in my opinion. one of the points to a mob is to make a group of weak creatures challenging to high level characters. if that mob still only has a bab of +2, some of its usefulness is reduced. i'm not sure how to implement this though. the original version just used the hit dice of the mob as base; that seems like it could still work, except that you have tied some other abilities to bab that would now be unbalanced.
    One solution would be to use the source creature BAB for calculating all those things that BAB is currently used to calculate, but use the method you describe for calculating the BAB of the resultant mob.
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    Default Re: [3.5]Making large groops of mooks threatening->improving the mob template!

    Led Mob (template)

    This aspiring chaos champion knows well that even with his power armor and genetic enanchments, a wall of weak traitor guardsmen is still a valuable asset.

    Some mobs form upspontaneously, each individual following the other whitout anyone being really in control, and just trampling over whatever they feel like.

    Other mobs aren't as random. Specialy charismatic and/or brutal individuals may manage to gather a group of weaker minded individuals around them, and then use them as a blunt tool.

    Altough still unable to perform sophisticated actions, a Led Mob is considerably stronger when it has someone pointing it where to go.

    Unless where otherwise noted, a Led Mob works exactly as a regular Mob


    Creation:
    Anyone wanting to become the center of a Led Mob (therefore refered as the Leader), must
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    1- Choose a Mob with wich you can comunicate. Make a diplomacy/initimidate check with DC=20+mob's CR+Mob's will save as a fullround action. Leaders may replace charisma for any physical stat on this check. If the first check fails, then the mob is immune to any further dissuadation atempt from that Leader for 24 hours. If the check suceeds, then the mob will do anything in it's power to join with the Leader. When they meet up, they become a Led Mob.

    2-Alternatively, the Leader may start up his own mob. This demands that there are at least 8 nearby individuals of medium size and same type, or 16 of small size or 4 of large size, all at least helpfull to the Leader. Make a diplomacy/intimidate check. All nearby individuals must make a will save with DC= to your check or join around you on a mob. Charmed creatures take a -10 penalty in this save. Creatures controled by you or fanatic to you automaticaly join this mob. You must get the minimum number of individuals to create the mob.

    Either case, a Leader doesn't need to be of the same kind of the creatures of the mob, but it must be of their size or smaller. A mob's mentality sees anything much bigger than their individuals as a threat.

    Acording to the DM's discretion, diplomacy/intimidate may be replaced by other skills depending on the kind of mob and situation. For example, a mob of animals may be controled by handle animal check, and a mob of zombies may be directed by a knowledge religion check.

    The Leader never counts in favor of the basic Mob statistics.


    Hands free:
    The Leader decides the actions of the Led Mob as a free action each turn, allowing him to use his own actions to his own devices. The only limitation is that the Leader counts as having spent a move action if the Led Mob also moves. The Leader cannot make Aoos, but it can attack anyone in reach of the Led Mob.

    Above all others:
    The Led Mob protects the Leader at all costs, puting themselves between him and incoming attacks. The Leader counts as having total cover and cannot be targeted by any means, but is still being able to observe his surroundings and target other creatures.

    If an attack roll against a mob results on a natural 20, the attacker may choose to attack the enemy Leader instead of the Led Mob. Roll again, but this time agains the Leader statistics. If the attacker has any kind of precision damage dices like sneack attack, it needs only to roll 20-X, where X is the number of precision dice they have. So for example a 19th rogue with 10 sneack attack dice would only need to roll 10-20 to be able to target the leader. Conditions for the precision dice to work must be met (normaly Mob flatfooted). The Leader himself never takes the extra precision damage, is just easier to target.

    If the Led mob gets hit by area attacks, the Leader only takes damage if the Led Mob rolls a natural 1 on the save.

    If an enemy is inside the mob, it may attack the Leader in melee with a 50% miss chance. If the attack misses due to this, it hits the Led Mob instead.



    Leadership:
    By not performing any other actions that would demand speaking, the leader may shout orders, advice and/or threats at the mass around him to make them fight better. In this case the mob adds the leader best mental stat bonus modifier to all saves, DCs, attacks, skill checks, ability checks and damage rolls (multiply by the BAB factor).

    Momentum:
    If the Leader dies or willingly leaves the Led Mob, it reverts back to a normal Mob, and the Leader must again meet the pre-requisites of creating the Led Mob if he wants to join them again.


    CR:
    Same as the base Mob+Leader's CRs(minimum +1 of the highest between them).
    Last edited by Oslecamo; 2009-10-29 at 07:11 AM.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Making large groops of mooks threatening->improving the mob template!

    Bump. PEACH anyone?

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    Default Re: [3.5]Making large groops of mooks threatening->improving the mob template!

    I love it!

    Slight grammatical nitpick though. Should be led mob, and willingly leaves.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Making large groops of mooks threatening->improving the mob template!

    Took care of it, and some other minor details.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Making large groops of mooks threatening->improving the mob template!

    While I have some reservations about your revised mob, your Led Mob is wonderful. I'll definitely be using it.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Making large groops of mooks threatening->improving the mob template!

    Care to share what those "reservations" are? I want to know wich points people like and dislike after all.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Making large groops of mooks threatening->improving the mob template!

    I only have one (minor) problem with it: why can't you lead a mob if you're larger than the individual members? I could actually see it as an advantage if you're creating a mob, rather than taking over an existing mob.

    Other than that I think it's awesome, and I hope both that you come up with some more disciplined formations where they aren't as instantly lethal, but they last longer, and that there will be more discussion about it.

    I've also got one minor question: If you're dealing with a less optimised group, or want mobs to be dangerous with few members, how would you calculate CR, and in the later case HP?
    Last edited by Rion; 2009-11-05 at 01:32 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5]Making large groops of mooks threatening->improving the mob template!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rion View Post
    I only have one (minor) problem with it: why can't you lead a mob if you're larger than the individual members? I could actually see it as an advantage if you're creating a mob, rather than taking over an existing mob.
    Well, I guess that makes some sense, but a big creature wouldn't be able to properly hide inside the mob. Gotta think about this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rion View Post
    Other than that I think it's awesome, and I hope both that you come up with some more disciplined formations where they aren't as instantly lethal, but they last longer, and that there will be more discussion about it.
    Indeed, the disciplined formation would be more durable, but would be at least as dangerous, needing fewer numbers to acomplish it. But I'm kinda busy with studies so nothing new will come before next day 12.

    I've also got one minor question: If you're dealing with a less optimised group, or want mobs to be dangerous with few members, how would you calculate CR, and in the later case HP?
    +1 CR for large mobs, +2 CR for huge mobs, +3 CR for gargantuan and +4 CR for colossal should be good for less optimized groups. Altough it's probably the DM's call. You can also use weaker creatures to "cheat" in the dificulty. A mob of humans is considerably weaker than a mob of orcs, for example.

    If you want to make mobs more dangerous with fewer members, you can add every member's HP to the Mob total and divide by half. Also allow class levels to count for the statistics, like a mob of orc barbarians, wich would be faster and count them as raging. Altough in this case it's not much of a mob anymore, but more of a semi-organized group.
    Last edited by Oslecamo; 2009-11-06 at 05:13 AM.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Making large groops of mooks threatening->improving the mob template!

    In Mob Trample in your unled mob, you note that the damage dealt is 1d6+1-1 / 2 str. I think you want + 1/2 str, unless physically weaker mobs are going to be more conniving and more likely to hit a man while he's down.

    When I saw the line 'unlimited AoOs'... that got me shuddering. I'd suggest you either specify 'a number of AoOs equal to its HD' or 'HD x 2', that way, a mob with Combat Reflexes is more powerful than a mob without.

    Moving through a mob should provoke multiple AoOs, I think, as different creatures take advantage of the fact that you're moving through.

    I would recommend you allow the mob to make a number of AoOs equal to, say, 9 x the number of squares the character moved through the mob. So if they go running through, they're probably screwed, but edging through doesn't trigger a FOR THE SWARM reaction.
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    Default Re: [3.5]Making large groops of mooks threatening->improving the mob template!

    Quote Originally Posted by Maldraugedhen View Post
    In Mob Trample in your unled mob, you note that the damage dealt is 1d6+1-1 / 2 str. I think you want + 1/2 str, unless physically weaker mobs are going to be more conniving and more likely to hit a man while he's down.
    Ah, thanks for point that out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maldraugedhen View Post
    When I saw the line 'unlimited AoOs'... that got me shuddering. I'd suggest you either specify 'a number of AoOs equal to its HD' or 'HD x 2', that way, a mob with Combat Reflexes is more powerful than a mob without.
    Meh, I'm trying to don't overcomplicate too much. This would be another number for the DM to keep check, and when you've got 20 aoos per turn, you may as well have infinite. Combat reflexes probaby falls on that stuff that really doesn't benefit a mob because they're too busy raging around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maldraugedhen View Post
    Moving through a mob should provoke multiple AoOs, I think, as different creatures take advantage of the fact that you're moving through.

    I would recommend you allow the mob to make a number of AoOs equal to, say, 9 x the number of squares the character moved through the mob. So if they go running through, they're probably screwed, but edging through doesn't trigger a FOR THE SWARM reaction.
    This is kinda already represented by the mob up attack, the litle dudes swarming all over you.

    Plus, the whole concept of this template becames useless if I'm forcing the DM to roll a hundred dices per turn. If a mob moves over a 4 member party, and they have to move 2 squares to get out, that will be 4x2x9=72 attacks. The game will slow down to a crawl.

    Also I don't want to penalize the players to do something cinematic like charging trough a mob.

  27. - Top - End - #27

    Default Re: [3.5]Making large groops of mooks threatening->improving the mob template!

    Unit(template)

    Spoiler
    Show


    Even squishy humans become a threat when properly organized



    Trough training and carefull coordination, an unit allows for the whole to be greater than the sum of the part. On the other hand, a single weak member may easily cripple or destroy the unit from inside, meaning that quality is as important as quantity when choosing it's members.

    Creation:
    Spoiler
    Show

    Unlike mobs, units don't form out of nowhere, but once properly trained, they can be quickly formed up when necessity arises.

    In order to join an unit a creature must train X days, where X is the number of members of the unit to be formed. This takes 8 hours of nonstop effort per training day and any interruption means it must be restarted from the begining. Forming an unit is no hobby you can easily drop and pick up again whenever you like it!

    Even mindless creatures can form units, as long as it's controler is willing to spend the training time geting used to make them move on formation. Uncontroled mindless creatures can't form units.



    Unless otherwise noted, an unit works as a mob


    HP: as a mob, but add any HD gained from levels from the members as well. So for example a mob of ten lv5 human fighters would have 50 HD.

    Abilities:
    an unit retains it's mental ability scores. If it's members have diferent mental scores, use the lowest ones.

    Speed:
    As base creature. The members of an unit are trained to march in synchrozination.

    BAB: Use the lowest among the members of the unit.

    Saves: Use the lowest among members of the unit.

    Discipline:An unit gains a bonus on it's saves, skills and ability checks equal to it's size modifier(+4 for large, +8 for huge, ect)

    Unit Anatomy:Unlike a mob, an unit is vulnerable to critical hits and precision damage as it's strenght comes from it's carefull formation.

    If an unit would be affected by a spell that doesn't outright kill a creature like a curse, then it applies to the whole unit. This however also applies to benefetical effects like bull's strenght. A unit who disperses automaticaly dispells all of these effects on all it's members.

    Don't affected by flanking, bullrush, overrun, trip or grapple

    If an unit fails a save against a spell/effect that would normally kill/incapapacitate a creature, such as disintrigate, slay living or wail of the bashee, it instead gains one negative level for each creature that would be killed by that spell/effect. Large creatures count as 4 and small creatures count as half.

    Units take +50% damage from area damage spells.
    Units take double damage from melee attacks from creatures with cleave.
    Units take quadruple damage from melee attacks from creatures with greater cleave.

    Wall of bodies:An unit keeps a tight cohesive formation, meaning it can choose to stop other creatures from moving inside it.

    Wall of blades: An unit deals mob up damage to all creatures whitin it's reach at the end of each of it's turns.

    Tactics:
    an unit may use activated abilities from it's members, as long as they coordinate themselves carefuly.

    As a swift action one member of the unit may use an activated ability it possesses. Others may help, up the following maximum number:
    large: 2 combined members.
    huge: 3 combined members.
    gargantuan:4 combined members.
    colossal:6 combined members.

    For each extra member beyond the first, the ability counts as being two level higher for all levels purposes and it's DCs increase by 2 as well. So 3 lv5 wizards with 16 int each casting fireball at the same time from inside an unit would cast a single fireball dealing 9d6 damage counting as CL9 and with a DC of 10+3+3+2+2=20


    Sacrifice:
    At the begining of the unit's turn, it may choose to take 1d20 damage per size category above medium to get rid of one effect/spell on it. This demands no action on part of the unit.

    CR:

    Large:5, or +4 if the creature with more HD on the unit has CR
    2 or higher.
    Huge:7, or +4 if the creature with more HD on the unit has CR
    is 4 or higher.
    Gargantuan:10, or +4 if the creature with more HD on the unit has CR
    7 or higher.
    Colossal:14, or +4 if the creature with more HD on the unit has CR
    11 or higher.


    Led Unit(template)


    This undead army became much fiercer once it had an undead general to comand it.

    Puting a talented leader into the midle of an unit makes for the ultimate formation. This individuals inspires and comands it's subordinate in batle.

    Creation:
    Spoiler
    Show
    As an unit, but once the training is over the leader must get the unit's trust. Make a diplomacy/intimidate check of 20+mob's CR to get it to acept you as your leader. You may replace charisma for any other score on this check. The DC is double for units neutral to you and hostile units always refuse, altough the DM may allow bluff/disguise to allow you to lead an enemy unit acording to the circumstances.


    Otherwise a led unit works exactly as a led mob, plus it gains the following extra abilities:

    Comand:
    Leading an unit is no easy task. At the begining of each turn the leader must make a skill check (wich skill dependant of the DM) with a DC of 10+unit's CR+unit's negative levels:

    Fail:neither the led unit or the leader may take no actions this turn.
    Suceed: the led unit may act as normal but the leader can't take any actions except the leadership ability.
    Suceed by 5 or more: as above, but the leader can take a partial action.
    Suceed by 10 or more: as above, but the leader can take actions normaly.


    Example:
    An unit may choose to, instead of their own saves, use half of their bonuses plus half of the leader's save bonuses.

    They may do the same for skills, BAB and mental scores.

    An unit may use this ability even if it's leader failed on his command check.
    Last edited by Oslecamo; 2010-04-21 at 05:04 AM.

  28. - Top - End - #28

    Default Re: [3.5]Making large groops of mooks threatening->improving the mob template!

    Bumpy. No PEACH to my unit template?

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5]Making large groops of mooks threatening->improving the mob template!

    I think the Unit is under-CRr'ed. 10 lvl 5 humans plus a lvl 10 leader will have 50 HD, and it's what? CR 17 (Assuming it's upgraded from Led Mob)? It's much, much much tougher than a Dragon, which has been always rated as under-CR'ed. It'll take AGES to kill, by then the mob will have killed everything and everyone in it's path. Change it from base mob +2 to base mob + 4 and i think it'll reflect the challenge better. Otherwise, make it so that not only HD are gained from class levels but also up the challenge rating of the mob. Because, as it is, only the Leader CR matters, mob members CR don't. So you could have 10 lvl 10 Vampire Fighters led by a lvl 15 Human Wizard and end up with a CR 22 encounter, but with 100 HD and what-not.

    Also, what if the Unit is composed entirely of undead? Will it still be vulnerable to Critical Hits?

    I also think that the clause about spells, while interesting (Bulls Strenght & Bestow Curse affecting everyone in an unit), is prone to abuse. Clever players could form a mob, have the wizard cast the buffs on the entire mob (using single target), then dispel the mob, then they'll have all the buffs and only cast 1-low-level spell. No, i think Mobs, units etc... Should only be affected by area spells which target an area one size smaller than they occupy. So a Large mob would only be affected by Medium-Size area spells, and so on and so forth. Single target spells simply don't work, or bestow some kind of penalty (Like you did with the negative level if a member of the mob is killed, only for save-or-sucks).
    ----------------------------------------------------
    Do i or do i not?

    - Now i'm an ORC in the playground! Hooray =] -

  30. - Top - End - #30

    Default Re: [3.5]Making large groops of mooks threatening->improving the mob template!

    Quote Originally Posted by brujon View Post
    I think the Unit is under-CRr'ed. 10 lvl 5 humans plus a lvl 10 leader will have 50 HD, and it's what? CR 17 (Assuming it's upgraded from Led Mob)? It's much, much much tougher than a Dragon, which has been always rated as under-CR'ed.
    Notice however that these are basicaly "virtual" HD. They just give you life, not more BAB or extra saves.

    A dragon has fat natural bonus, spell resistance, casts spells, flies at great speed, SLAs, ect, ect.

    Quote Originally Posted by brujon View Post
    It'll take AGES to kill, by then the mob will have killed everything and everyone in it's path. Change it from base mob +2 to base mob + 4 and i think it'll reflect the challenge better. Otherwise, make it so that not only HD are gained from class levels but also up the challenge rating of the mob. Because, as it is, only the Leader CR matters, mob members CR don't. So you could have 10 lvl 10 Vampire Fighters led by a lvl 15 Human Wizard and end up with a CR 22 encounter, but with 100 HD and what-not.
    You're kinda right here. I need to make the CR also dependant on the class levels. But remember, those HD don't count for BAB and saves.

    Also notice that due to their lower than normal defenses and taking extra damage from cleave and area attacks, units HP goes down pretty fast.

    Quote Originally Posted by brujon View Post
    Also, what if the Unit is composed entirely of undead? Will it still be vulnerable to Critical Hits?
    Yes. A formation of undeads isn't any harder to disrupt than a formation of breathing beings. Undeads are harder to disrupt as individuals, but I don't see anything that sugest they would make a better formation than the living.

    Quote Originally Posted by brujon View Post
    I also think that the clause about spells, while interesting (Bulls Strenght & Bestow Curse affecting everyone in an unit), is prone to abuse. Clever players could form a mob, have the wizard cast the buffs on the entire mob (using single target), then dispel the mob, then they'll have all the buffs and only cast 1-low-level spell.
    Good point. Guess I'll include a clause that a unit who breacks loses all the magical buffs it gained, since I still dream of buffed units. If you still see possible abuse with this please point it out.

    Quote Originally Posted by brujon View Post
    No, i think Mobs, units etc... Should only be affected by area spells which target an area one size smaller than they occupy. So a Large mob would only be affected by Medium-Size area spells, and so on and so forth. Single target spells simply don't work, or bestow some kind of penalty (Like you did with the negative level if a member of the mob is killed, only for save-or-sucks).
    Hmm, what? Only affected by area spells wich target an area one size smaller than they occupy? So a fireball can't hurt a large unit? Didn't you mean something else?

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