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    HalflingWizardGirl

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    Default Defining: Optimizer, Powergamer, Munchkin

    OK, these words get thrown around alot and I'm curious how different people define them. I've seen people say optimizer for things I would call powergaming and I've seen people say munchkin for things I'd just call optimizing and I've seen rather bad arguments over it. So in the interests of broadening MY understanding I'd like all of your input.

    These are the definitions I was going by. Am I wrong? Or are these truely all relative terms and there are various definitions depending on the people involved?

    Optimizer: Someone who plans their character so as to best use abilities and the rules of the game to their advantage. (perfectly fine in any game)

    Powergamer: An optimizer who disregards the intended power level of the game and abuses flaws in RAWR(while not breaking rules) to make themselves significantly more powerful than the game intended for their level. (do-able if everyone in the game is a powergamer and the dm can compensate.)

    Munchkin: A powergamer who abuses flaws in RAWR and breaks rules(intentional or accidental) to drasitcally increase the power level of their character beyond the intended or even reasonablly adjustable power level of the game. (pretty hard to deal with in any game)
    RAMS > RAI > RAW

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    Default Re: Defining: Optimizer, Powergamer, Munchkin

    Optimizer: "Toughness is a weak option for my Fighter. I'll take Steadfast Determination instead."

    Powergamer: "Fighter is a weak option for my character. I'll take Wizard instead."

    Munchkin: "Wizard is a weak option for my character. I'll take Pun-Pun instead."
    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Greater
    \ˈgrā-tər \
    comparative adjective
    1. Describing basically the exact same monster but with twice the RHD.
    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

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    Default Re: Defining: Optimizer, Powergamer, Munchkin

    Optimizer: Someone who decides upon a set role or concept and uses the rules to maximize her potential towards that direction. An optimizer may be optimizing a non-optimal class or concept for the sheer enjoyment of making that concept work.

    Powergamer: Someone who decides upon a high level of potency and makes character selection and customization primarily based upon being effective. A powergamer begins character creation with a mechanical effect or level of dominance they seek to achieve.

    Munchkin: Someone who decides upon a high level of potency and makes character selection and customization solely upon being effective. May or may not actually use flawed rules interpretations or cheat; the important thing differentiating the Munchkin from the Powergamer is a near-total apathy for assisting or refraining from injuring the play experience for others, in pursuit of her goal of power.

    There is a rough correspondence on the other side of RPG, the 'RP' - those would be Method Actor, Limelighter and Prima Donna.
    Last edited by AstralFire; 2009-10-25 at 01:58 PM.


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    Default Re: Defining: Optimizer, Powergamer, Munchkin

    In my experience it goes something like this:

    Optimizer = A word that munchkins use to describe themselves.

    Powergamer = A word that munchkins use to describe themselves.

    Munchkin = The word that everyone else uses to describe the people who don't think they're munchkins but "Optimizers" or "Powergamers" instead.
    Last edited by Moriato; 2009-10-25 at 01:58 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Saph View Post
    What does "too evil" mean, anyway? Too evil compared to what? Is there a Recommended Daily Allowance of evil?

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    HalflingWizardGirl

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    Default Re: Defining: Optimizer, Powergamer, Munchkin

    Quote Originally Posted by AstralFire View Post
    There is a rough correspondence on the other side of RPG, the 'RP' - those would be Method Actor, Limelighter and Prima Donna.
    hah, i like that.
    RAMS > RAI > RAW

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Defining: Optimizer, Powergamer, Munchkin

    Optimizers, well, optimize. They work within a character concept to maximize a character's effectiveness.

    Powergamers are not out to work with a character. A powergamer wants to have power, and so his first consideration in the game is not "what character would be fun?" but "what character would be the most powerful?". They're not as bad as the next category but can cause issues, mostly if mixed in with nonpowergamers, because the aims of the players are different.

    Munchkins are also out to have power, but in a different way and with a different aim than the powergamer. The powergamer views D&D as a series of challenges that the DM is putting forth and wants to defeat them. The munchkin views D&D as a contest among everyone at the table to dominate gameplay. This means that they must be more powerful not only than the DM's challenges, but more powerful than the other players as well. Because of this, they're not interested in playing a game, the way the powergamer is. They're interested in playing a metagame, and in their view, everything that advances them helps that. Rules don't apply to their metagame and so they may ignore or overlook them.

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    Default Re: Defining: Optimizer, Powergamer, Munchkin

    Method Actor: Someone who decides upon a set role or concept and thinks through every aspect of the character's personality to maximize her immersion within the role. Some will occasionally make choices that are simply bad for the character or campaign's health to remain true to the character's personality, but only when such things are called for.

    Limelighter: Someone who wants to be the primary focus of story development. In many ways, much the same as the method actor, except that they're more likely to take a 'crowd-pleaser' concept, and controversial in-character choices are more likely to arise because they make the game 'interesting'.

    Prima Donna: Someone who wants to be the primary focus of story development and expects all important action and roleplay to revolve around them. May or may not be making illogical and inconsistent in-character actions; the important thing differentiating the Prima Donna from the Limelighter is a near-total apathy for assisting or refraining from injuring the play experience for others, in pursuit of her goal of attention.


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    Default Re: Defining: Optimizer, Powergamer, Munchkin

    Quote Originally Posted by Moriato View Post
    In my experience it goes something like this:

    Optimizer = A word that munchkins use to describe themselves.

    Powergamer = A word that munchkins use to describe themselves.

    Munchkin = The word that everyone else uses to describe the people who don't think they're munchkins but "Optimizers" or "Powergamers" instead.
    You've never met individuals from the first two categories then. I, myself, sit somewhere between the first two. DnD is a painfully flawed and inflexible system that requires work to make it... -well, work. The problem comes from those self-centered tools who care not a whit for the enjoyment of others in their quest to 'win' the game.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Innis Cabal View Post
    Toho has retroactive powers of awesome. He makes things that he hasn't done, and have already happened, better by his existence
    Quote Originally Posted by Ganurath View Post
    If anything, the term should be What Would Toho Do?
    Of course, in all situations the answer is Be A Badass.

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    Default Re: Defining: Optimizer, Powergamer, Munchkin

    To use magic the gathering terms (Note: most people fall into portions of these categories):

    Spike: Someone who wants to win at all costs, including originality, logic, and even bending the rules so far they snap. They can completely break games (see: Punpun) or just be that thing that saves the party when it desperately needs it because they are an efficient character (see: any extremely efficient and powerful gish; probably an artificer XD).

    Favorite Books: All of them. But usually only about ~5 pages from each.

    Johnny: Johnny wants to play on his own terms. That is, he see's DnD as the perfect chance for creative expression and will stick to his own guns even at the risk of sub-par power. He'll commonly be the one to try to optimize the underused classes and create odd character types you'll never see anywhere else. Why play a Cleric to heal and buff when you can be a Truenamer Incarnum-user with Stigmata and Strongheart Vest to offset the con damage?

    Favorite Books: Tome of Magic, The Quinessential Soul Knife, A WotC article you never even heard of posted by Monte Cook on a forum back during 3.0 beta days

    Timmy: He wants to be a good character using the biggest and most impressive things he can find. He doesn't necessarily want to win at all costs like the Spike or combine weaker elements into stronger ones like the Johnny. He's the guy who uses all his spells in a single Time Stop + Delayed Blast Fireball blast on the first encounter and, thanks to Ultimate Magus' ability to reduce 1st level spells into metamagic buffs, leaves nothing left over for the final boss. They pick the Great Axe over the Scythe since it uses bigger dice, without realizing the Scythe does more technical damage when you account for its critical hit multiplier.

    Preferred Books: Player's Handbook, Monster Manual 1, The Complete Series

    Vorthos: Cares nothing for power or mechanics so long as its flavorful. Theme trumps everything. He'd prefer playing a level 1 commoner to a level 10 druid if he could narrate his 14 page back story to everyone about why he chose to be a chicken farmer and why he'll avenge the loss of his village ransacked by bandits a week before he joined the rest of the party, using his father's sword he found hidden in the rafters of his house while he tried to escape the marauders.

    Preferred Books: Weapons of Legacy, Draconomicon, his own book he's been writing about his character who le-...I'll tell ya later.

    Melvin: Melvin prefers mechanics over gameplay. That is, he's content to sit by and read some fascinating new way to apply spell components in an intuitive fashion that blows all previous spell-component mechanics out of the water. He loves exploring new mechanics and constantly rating them. He's most likely to change his character (or beg to DM) to try out something new. Probably homebrews a lot and dreams of working for R&D.

    Preferred Books: Changes every week based on 3rd party updates and forum revisions that make the systems *so* much better. Also: Pathfinder.

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    Default Re: Defining: Optimizer, Powergamer, Munchkin

    If Johnny, Melvin, and Vorthos combined their powers... I'd be their Captain Planet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Innis Cabal View Post
    Toho has retroactive powers of awesome. He makes things that he hasn't done, and have already happened, better by his existence
    Quote Originally Posted by Ganurath View Post
    If anything, the term should be What Would Toho Do?
    Of course, in all situations the answer is Be A Badass.

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    Default Re: Defining: Optimizer, Powergamer, Munchkin

    Quote Originally Posted by AstralFire View Post
    Optimizer: Someone who decides upon a set role or concept and uses the rules to maximize her potential towards that direction. An optimizer may be optimizing a non-optimal class or concept for the sheer enjoyment of making that concept work.

    Powergamer: Someone who decides upon a high level of potency and makes character selection and customization primarily based upon being effective. A powergamer begins character creation with a mechanical effect or level of dominance they seek to achieve.

    Munchkin: Someone who decides upon a high level of potency and makes character selection and customization solely upon being effective. May or may not actually use flawed rules interpretations or cheat; the important thing differentiating the Munchkin from the Powergamer is a near-total apathy for assisting or refraining from injuring the play experience for others, in pursuit of her goal of power.

    There is a rough correspondence on the other side of RPG, the 'RP' - those would be Method Actor, Limelighter and Prima Donna.
    I essentially agree with you. However, I'll type it out as well, slightly more succinctly.

    Optimizer: One who optimizes, attempting to fulfill a specific concept with maximum efficiency.

    Powergamer: One who wants to have a powerful character.

    Munchkin: One who wants to be "best" to the detriment of the rest of the table. May cheat to get it. Also applied to people who simply play in a style to the detriment of the rest of the table.

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    Default Re: Defining: Optimizer, Powergamer, Munchkin

    ...We just had one of these threads last week, right?


    (Note: most people fall into portions of these categories):

    Spike: Someone who wants to win at all costs, including originality, logic, and even bending the rules so far they snap. They can completely break games (see: Punpun) or just be that thing that saves the party when it desperately needs it because they are an efficient character (see: any extremely efficient and powerful gish; probably an artificer XD).
    I'm inclined to say this is a Munchkin, not an Optimizer. In fact, I don't see anything in your post that would meet the definition of Optimizer. Spikes, in MTG terms, are all over the tourny scene, and are proper optimizers. The Stop Having Fun Guys is an extreme Spike. The cheater is a cheater.

    Efficient character design doesn't (or shouldn't) disrupt the campaign (I say shouldn't because there are DMs out there who believe the party should fail at some things).

    Optimizers do not actively seek out the most powerful classes and builds and expect to "win". They know that victory only matters in combat scenarios, and that you can't "win" DnD (the party can, but only at the end of an adventure). They don't strive for "winning", they aim to make their characters as powerful as they need to be in the role they choose. And they know how to hold back. Most importantly, an optimizer will play by the rules.

    Power Gamers seek out the most powerful build options, but not necessarily the best classes. They try to be the most powerful at what they do. If they are proven wrong they may argue their side, but are more likely to accept that they are wrong and seek to make a correction. They are capable of getting along with the rest of the table quite well.

    Munchkins don't care about the party, and actively seek to be the best at everything. They may be rude about it, and may misinterpret the rules, and may very well disrupt the game often. When proven wrong, they may be immature about it, or they just find something else to bend or break. These people are the bane of gamers, as they often go to lengths to cheat, simply for the sake of power over the other party members. Rarely will they show respect for the DM's authority or for people trying to keep the game on track.



    Sometimes the three may overlap, but an optimizer is the most likely to recognize his own syndromes of the other two styles and most likely to correct himself. A Power Gamer is likely to realize he is a Munchkin, but whether or not he corrects himself depends on which side of the spectrum he's on. Munchkins are the hardest to correct. They tend to be stubborn, and often require regular chair beatings. Still, some have been redeemed.





    With regards to the Flaws variant in UA/SRD, it's a psuedo-broken mechanic that shouldn't have been printed. Its a nice boost, and any optimizer will take advantage of it, but they respect the DM in that area and only utilize flaws if they are allowed. To be honest, flaws and bonus feats are not that powerful except on certain builds; it just makes character optimization easier. A Munchkin may read the flaws section, and then apply them immediately at next to no limit. A Power Gamer may or may not use them at all, but if they do they make sure it is ok with the DM first.

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    Default Re: Defining: Optimizer, Powergamer, Munchkin

    Quote Originally Posted by Moriato View Post
    In my experience it goes something like this:

    Optimizer = A word that munchkins use to describe themselves.

    Powergamer = A word that munchkins use to describe themselves.

    Munchkin = The word that everyone else uses to describe the people who don't think they're munchkins but "Optimizers" or "Powergamers" instead.
    That's a mildly insulting way to categorize a wide group of people, in my experience.

    I think Flickerdart's example is a pretty good way of summing up the differences.

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    Default Re: Defining: Optimizer, Powergamer, Munchkin

    Optimizers take a concept, like "arhcer" or "illusionist" or "Jack Sparrow," and from there work out how to make that concept work within the game. They discard choices that are subpar for filling out the concept - like perhaps refusing fighter when warblade is a better combatant - without choosing options based solely on their mechanical power. A good optimizer is also willing to refluff things, which many non-optimizers aren't, which can lead to tensions even outside of any mechanical power.

    Powergamers start with the character, and may never get to the concept. They start building up "a swift hunter" or "a FS conjurer" or "tripmonkey." Here mechanically-subpar options are thrown out for the reason of being mechanically subpar, rather than the option not fitting the character.

    So, take the concept of an agile, fast 2HW-user. The optimizer might take an elven courtblade, classing as a warblade with a dip in cleric (travel devotion) and barbarian (pounce + variant rage), focusing on Diamond Mind and White Raven and Tiger's Claw and grabbing Shadow Blade as well.

    A powergamer, on the other hand, probably wouldn't even play this concept. Dumping a huge investment of points into Dex instead of Str hurts your damage output and requires several extra feats to remain on the same level.

    So, no sane powergamer is going to go for a 2-hander with a starting Str of 10 and Dex18. But an optimizer can work with that concept and make it into something worth playing. A non-optimizer simply won't be able to get the concept to work well, because a non-optimizer probably won't notice things like Shadow Blade or Elven Courtblade.

    [The thing to keep in mind is that on forums such as these, advice often leads towards powergaming rather than optimizing. Mechanics is what we work with because the character itself is generally unavailable. It's up to the OP to figure out whether ideas would fit a character or not; we simply give out the advice, including things that may or may not go against the spirit of the character, and leave others to decide what's okay.]

    Munchkin is a different matter entirely. A munchkin is someone who has fun at the expense of others. This often means powergaming, or at least attempting to, and ignoring that they're dominating the table. It tends to also be assossiated with powergaming poorly, screwing up the rules because the person simply read a few posts on a forum and doesn't actually know what they're doing. But it can just as easily be someone who is optimizing - a good thing - but not noticing how much their power level is affecting the other players. And it can be people who try and fasttalk their DM into allowing things they shouldn't. And it can be people who purposely misinterpret the rules because it's advantageous.
    Last edited by lsfreak; 2009-10-25 at 03:01 PM.
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    Default Re: Defining: Optimizer, Powergamer, Munchkin

    In their own words:

    Optimizer:
    "Well, that's the backstory finished. Now I just need to build the character."

    Powergamer:
    "Well, that's my build finished. Now I just need to come up with some backstory."

    Munchkin:
    "LOOKIT MAH NUMBERZ!"

    You also forgot the other end of this scale - the Actor.

    Actor:
    "LOOKIT MAH BACKSTORY!"



    Thus, the scale runs:

    Actor [RP above all]
    Optimizer [RP/Power]
    Powergamer [Power/RP]
    Munchkin [Power above all]

    Either end of the scale is annoying and impossible to play with. The munchkin is only out to get higher numbers, and won't play fair or play nice. The actor, on the other hand, put no effort into his build, because he's more interested in his novel length backstory, which he'll cram in at any occasion. The munchkin dominates of all the fights himself, while the actor has to be carried through by the members of the party who didn't spend all their feats on spell thematics and toughness.
    Quote Originally Posted by true_shinken View Post
    Ya know, Strife, I'm really happy for you and I'mma let you finish, but streakster made one of the the best analogies of all time. Of all time.
    The perfect fighter fix.
    Hey, the magnificent Shades of gray made me the cool paladin! Give him a hand!
    From time to time, I vanish from the boards. Like Frosty, though, I'll be back again some day!

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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Defining: Optimizer, Powergamer, Munchkin

    Quote Originally Posted by Gametime View Post
    That's a mildly insulting way to categorize a wide group of people, in my experience.

    I think Flickerdart's example is a pretty good way of summing up the differences.
    I do my best to mildly insult as wide a group of people as I can at every opportunity.

    Seriously though, when I began playing D&D, "Munchkin" meant pretty much what people use the word "optimizer" or "powergamer" for nowadays. A munchkin was someone who only cared about making the best character they could, and amassing as much wealth as possible. This seems to be the default goal most people have in D&D anymore.

    Now people seem to think that powergamer and optimizer mean something different and munchkin = cheater.

    We just used the word cheater for people who cheated.
    Last edited by Moriato; 2009-10-25 at 03:16 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Saph View Post
    What does "too evil" mean, anyway? Too evil compared to what? Is there a Recommended Daily Allowance of evil?

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    Default Re: Defining: Optimizer, Powergamer, Munchkin

    Well we also forgot the "developer" archtype: he's happy so long as he can play either some odd system he foudn online or can test one he make himself XD

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    Default Re: Defining: Optimizer, Powergamer, Munchkin

    Optimizer - A player seeking to take abilities appropraite for his/her character, but not nessicerily weak abilities. Will usally take enough power to remain useful in a party, but doesn't stretch to steal the spotlight.

    Munchkin - Someone who takes power for powers sake. Likes to steal the show, instant-kill bosses, and doesn't mind the addition of new abilities or hownbrewn material, as long as he/she realises how powerful the new abilities are but the other players don't.

    Powergamer - Somewhere in between, is more willing to take options purely for power, but won't try to outshine too much and make their broken build too obvious.

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    Default Re: Defining: Optimizer, Powergamer, Munchkin

    Quote Originally Posted by Moriato View Post
    I do my best to mildly insult as wide a group of people as I can at every opportunity.

    Seriously though, when I began playing D&D, "Munchkin" meant pretty much what people use the word "optimizer" or "powergamer" for nowadays. A munchkin was someone who only cared about making the best character they could, and amassing as much wealth as possible. This seems to be the default goal most people have in D&D anymore.

    Now people seem to think that powergamer and optimizer mean something different and munchkin = cheater.

    We just used the word cheater for people who cheated.
    Because no one understood that Blaster Wizards sucked, or that Fighters weren't worth taking to 20th level. Back then, being an optimizer was a niche much smaller than it is now (we are now very wide-spread). Back then, the odds of having an optimizer who knew what he was doing in your party were fairly slim. Back then, we were considered the bane of the RPG community because no one understood what we were doing and why.


    We've tried hard to shake that karma too. And people with your attitude just make it hard on us. Though I believe we all agree with you on the Cheater part.

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    Default Re: Defining: Optimizer, Powergamer, Munchkin

    Quote Originally Posted by streakster View Post
    In their own words:

    Optimizer:
    "Well, that's the backstory finished. Now I just need to build the character."

    Powergamer:
    "Well, that's my build finished. Now I just need to come up with some backstory."

    Munchkin:
    "LOOKIT MAH NUMBERZ!"

    You also forgot the other end of this scale - the Actor.

    Actor:
    "LOOKIT MAH BACKSTORY!"



    Thus, the scale runs:

    Actor [RP above all]
    Optimizer [RP/Power]
    Powergamer [Power/RP]
    Munchkin [Power above all]

    Either end of the scale is annoying and impossible to play with. The munchkin is only out to get higher numbers, and won't play fair or play nice. The actor, on the other hand, put no effort into his build, because he's more interested in his novel length backstory, which he'll cram in at any occasion. The munchkin dominates of all the fights himself, while the actor has to be carried through by the members of the party who didn't spend all their feats on spell thematics and toughness.
    Much love, Streaks, but I disagree with this version because it puts tabletop in a sliding scale of Game versus Roleplay when I think that these definitions are more helpfully described as a triangle between Game, Roleplay, and Social Views.


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    Default Re: Defining: Optimizer, Powergamer, Munchkin

    One clue, if the call is called himself a power gamer or optimizer and dies alot: then they are neither.
    A good power gamer/optimize doesn't die alot.

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    Default Re: Defining: Optimizer, Powergamer, Munchkin

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfire Titan View Post
    Because no one understood that Blaster Wizards sucked, or that Fighters weren't worth taking to 20th level. Back then, being an optimizer was a niche much smaller than it is now (we are now very wide-spread). Back then, the odds of having an optimizer who knew what he was doing in your party were fairly slim. Back then, we were considered the bane of the RPG community because no one understood what we were doing and why.


    We've tried hard to shake that karma too. And people with your attitude just make it hard on us. Though I believe we all agree with you on the Cheater part.
    Not... really. We weren't stupid.

    Believe me, there were as many people then who knew the rules just as well as you do.

    Also, when I started it was 2nd ed, and everything had far fewer hit points than they do now, and saving throws were a lot easier to make, so blasters were actually very powerful.

    Regardless, no one invented power gaming, it's always been there, it was just never the goal of the game for most people.
    Last edited by Moriato; 2009-10-25 at 03:33 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Saph View Post
    What does "too evil" mean, anyway? Too evil compared to what? Is there a Recommended Daily Allowance of evil?

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    Default Re: Defining: Optimizer, Powergamer, Munchkin

    An Optimizer is someone who takes a role and tries to make themselves as mechanically effective at it as they can without disrupting the game. An optimizer archer will buy a more powerful bow if it's available, they have time, and the party doesn't have to go out of thier way to get it. Seems like a pretty meaningless label to me, since most players do this, unless they either don't understand the mechanics of the game or they're much more interested in the roleplaying aspects of the game than the mechanical side of it.

    A Powergamer wants power, whether that consists of combat ability or political influence or just plain money or something else, and generally they seem (to me) to be the kind of people who don't understand or don't care that you can't "win" D&D, and the primary point of the game is to have fun with your friends, not be better than the DM and other players. Many players have a few drops of this in thier bucket- not that I blame them, of course, and I'm not saying that's bad. Being able to become superhumanly powerful is part of the appeal of D&D in the first place.

    A Munchkin is like everything bad about the Powergamer dialed up to 11. They want to be the best at everything (and often think they are), tend to either make very poor decisions when building thier character or abuse some loophole in the rules to become stronger than they should, whether the loophole actually works like they think it does or not. A munchkin could very well decide that a sorcerer can stay at home and send his familiar out on adventures to do stuff for him because the sorcerer and familiar know evertything the other knows, and the sorcerer can cast spells with his familiar as a proxy, so the sorcerer could send his moue familiar to infiltrate the castle, sneak into the king's room, then Magic Missile him to death (this isn't drawn from an actual experience, if you're wondering, it's just an example that came to mind, and most munckhin interperatations of the rules tend to be much, much more stupid and insane.)

    Actual roleplaying is almost universally an alien concept to munchkins, and the only thing they do resembling it tends to be saying, in character "Do what I say or I'll kill/torture you," or "Look how much better I am than you!" Many munchkins think D&D is just a video game on paper.

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Defining: Optimizer, Powergamer, Munchkin

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfire Titan View Post
    Because no one understood that Blaster Wizards sucked, or that Fighters weren't worth taking to 20th level. Back then, being an optimizer was a niche much smaller than it is now (we are now very wide-spread). Back then, the odds of having an optimizer who knew what he was doing in your party were fairly slim. Back then, we were considered the bane of the RPG community because no one understood what we were doing and why.


    We've tried hard to shake that karma too. And people with your attitude just make it hard on us. Though I believe we all agree with you on the Cheater part.
    I don't think the game really changed that much. You could always play a powerful character without being a munchkin. Optimizing a "build" or "a die rolling technique" or whatever has the potential to be disruptive but need not necessarily be disruptive. You became (and still become) a munchkin when your quest for power comes at the cost of other players' fun, realism, roleplay, or game continuity.

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    Default Re: Defining: Optimizer, Powergamer, Munchkin

    Most of these are pretty good definitions for online discussion and so forth, but in my experience around the table the terms mean something like this.

    Optimizer=never really used around the table. Would probably be someone who simply did something cool with what they had. They didn't shine every session but when he shines he shines brightly.

    Powergamer= the guy who put time into being the most efficient member of the group. While not technically overpowered, yet, you do however get a little annoyed playing with him. No matter what the situation he seems to do just as good if not better than the other players.

    Munchkin= That Guy. You've only really heard of That Guy from others, or maybe met one once. Everyone hated him. He figured out a way to blow up the planet at level 2 and then proceeded to do it and reorder the world in his image. He told the GM how things worked and pouted when it didn't work his way. At one time he decided to destroy the entire city in which they were getting their quests from because he didn't like one of the NPC's attitudes.

    This should be noted, however, to be a sliding scale. One teams powergamer is another teams munchkin, and so forth. All depending on how optimized the rest of the party is.
    Last edited by Dienekes; 2009-10-25 at 03:58 PM.

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    Default Re: Defining: Optimizer, Powergamer, Munchkin

    Personally I'd say an optimizer takes a concept and tries to make it work. A power gamer says "how can I be strong" and looks into it, and a munchkin just tries to get power.

    An optimizer is good they take an interest in the RP and mechanics. They know the rules well enough I don't get asked to design their character for them.

    A power gamer can take an interest in the RP but it is always backseat to mechanics. They change their alignment and concept so they can take Vow of Nonviolence and get +4 to Save DCs.

    A munchkin will kill games. They claim +8 synergy bonus to diplomacy at Lv 1 in 3.0 where by the rules you could only get +4 (and yes I did encounter that).
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    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Defining: Optimizer, Powergamer, Munchkin

    Well, I've actually managed to play with people from all three groups in very little time, so here's some anecdotes:

    Optimizer: "You know, I've always wanted to play an Ogre. Now I've just got to find a way to make it work..."

    Powergamer: "If I play a Psychic Warrior/Monk I can get a lot of attacks at a decent BAB that deal way too much damage. Or, I could be an Ubercharger and do about the same, but simpler and more reliably. What do you guys think?"

    Munchkin: "Hey, check out my new character, everyone! I've got this ability that lets me reroll ones for damage and another that lets me roll another die if I roll max! So I use a Small dagger and BAM! Infinite damage! Who's the king now?"

    The last one doesn't play with us anymore. He quit in a hissy fit after the first session, where the DM vetoed his infinite combo. When we told the middle one none of the other characters would be able to match his, he changed to a batman psion instead (lets make them better, then). That's the main difference between a powergamer and a munchkin.

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    Default Re: Defining: Optimizer, Powergamer, Munchkin

    There is no difference mechanically, but a world of difference fluff-wise.

    All: push the boundaries of the rules/DM BS tolerance to make there concept of a PC as streamline and potent as possible given the rules.

    munchkins: play to win, no one likes them, have bad social skills.

    powergamer: plays well with others, but has no qualms about overshadowing other party members in displays of their awesome skills. Generally viewed with reluctant respect.

    Optimizer: a more catch-all and neutral phrase. These guys let the dice do the talking, maybe smug know-it-all's or indifferent gunners.

  29. - Top - End - #29
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    Default Re: Defining: Optimizer, Powergamer, Munchkin

    the problem is that the base mindset starts you with power gaming right when you are told "now CHOSE how much attribute points to put in each attribute".

    As for optimizing... so is a wizard with vast intellect choosing to use effective spells, or spell combos, instead of blasting away with fireballs an optimizer? IN CHARACTER they should know better... just like you know that getting a degree gives you more money than working at starbucks. Or that shooting someone is more effective than running at them and demonstrating your kung fu.

    It doesn't matter how you define each of those words, you don't need to pigeon hole every person into some definition. You can simply look at individual actions and determine if they are bad or good.

    Generally people agree that:
    1. Cheating is bad. Lying about your stats, lying about whats on your sheet, and lying about rolls is a bad thing.
    2. Playing a tier 1 class with lower tier people and stealing the show is bad.
    3. Fighting with other players and DM is bad
    4. Role playing is good.
    5. Being a team player is good.
    6. Withholding info the DM should know is a bad thing. (ex: you cast a spell that requires a ranged touch attack, he just tells you to roll for damage because he forgot it requires a touch attack. If you remembered and kept silent it is not a good thing)

    Is a highly optimized wizard who ONLY ever prepares support spells (haste, slow, etc) a bad thing?
    is a sorcerer with low stats and bad saves who gets lucky rolls and insta gibs BBEGs with save or die spells a bad thing?
    is a rogue with a terrible build who is ineffective in combat as "roleplay" and who just hides when the fight starts abandoning his friends a bad thing?

    Some are, some aren't... playing a strong character is not a bad thing, being a jerk to the other players is a bad thing (and you can do that if you are playing a well built or poorly built character).
    Last edited by taltamir; 2009-10-25 at 04:47 PM.
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    Default Re: Defining: Optimizer, Powergamer, Munchkin

    Optimizer: Takes an idea and makes it as effective as possible without making choices purely for the sake of effectiveness in game mechanics.

    Powergamer: An optimizer who is willing to step outside what makes sense for his character concept in order to be effective.

    Munchkin: Simply takes the most powerful combination of abilities possible in order to maximize his mechanical effectiveness, ignoring character concept entirely.


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