Defining: Optimizer, Powergamer, Munchkin

[Samb]

Honestly, there is no difference between the three. Trying to say there is one is just mental masturbation.

Powergamers just have the sense and decency to not overdo it, whihle munchkins do not.

[AstralFire]

Honestly there is no difference except for the difference I just outlined.

[The New Bruceski]

It's all a matter of perspective. I am an optimizer, you are a powergamer, he is a munchkin.

[taltamir]

Honestly, there is no difference between the three. Trying to say there is one is just mental masturbation.

Powergamers just have the sense and decency to not overdo it, whihle munchkins do not.

that is a pretty significant difference.

[KitsuneKionchi]

Long thought process spelled out below.

Long story short: whether or not a player is a munchkin is about what they do in game. That's it. Its not about builds or what they do on forums or even what there character is capable of. To some extent, table-talk comes into it ("My character could beat yours! he has the potential to get unlimited AC I just don't do it!").

If a player allows all other players the ability to do what they came into the party to do without overshadowing or otherwise making them feel worthless or in every way inferior to you, it doesn't matter how many builds you know or that you happened to choose the best feats for your character that you could find.

But remember: Munchkin derived from a slang term used to bash younger players who didn't see the joy that can be derived from roleplaying without being concerned primarily with power.

No player is truly one of these though. I made a character with as many attacks as posssible in a single round with a naginata. In the end I fell in love with the flavor behind the heaven's wing kata and void points. My character was optimized to have as many void points as possible. But when confronted by the DM with "you know, that ability is really weak compared to X and Y and Z" I just shrugged. "Its ok. This is enough. I prefer this flavor".

Spoiler

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Isn't it defined rather clearly though?

Power Gamer: From the words "power" and "gamer". A gamer who is mostly concerned with power.

Optimizer: From "optimize". A player whose character is the best possible at whatever it is he or she does.

Munchkin: A derogatory term probably first given to players who groups felt were too young to properly play.

A Munchkin is someone who thinks power is the most important part of a game.

A Munchkin doesn't necessarily mean you worship Punpun and have a +30 to bluff at level 8. It means you *try*. It means you wish you *could*. And it means you try to get as close to that goal as possible without being kicked out of your group. It means your #1 concern is the numbers.

On the other hand, having +30 to bluff doesn't mean your a munchkin. Often times players will start with a character idea and, barely straying from the original path, come out with a character stronger than any other in the party.

A player can spend hours scouring his books, countless web articles and multiple forums to create the best possible character they have and still not be ANY of these three. To be perfectly honest, I have no idea what I am (I've been called a powergamer, but everyone else who knows me laughs at that description of me). I usually create a vague idea of a character in my mind. Like "it'd be cool to use something humble but evocative like ropes...I could even float around and be carried by them and use them to choke people...". From there I begin looking around for ways to animate rope permanently without asking the DM for permission to use Permenancy with Animate Ropes. I later re-discover "Animate Objects". Long story short: within 2 hours I was recreating the dreaded "Nanobot Build" and getting more AC than a warforged incarnate with vow of poverty and combat expertise. But in the end I just wanted to do cool things with rope. It didn't start as "max out my AC"; it started as "fly around on ropes".

Of course, I just dumbed it down by limiting the number of animated objects to 3-4 to only get around +6-+8 AC, using ropes instead of a stronger material and not using permenacy or persist. It doesn't mean I didn't think about Divine Metamagic + Persist or using the Passion Domain + Cult of the Dragon Below feats to get unlimited metamagic on all my spells without any increases to spell level or (thanks to the domain) Charisma drain to get more ropes than I knew what to do with. I just didn't do it.

And that's the considerable difference between these often hated archtypes and a considerate player. A considerate player is one who worries about his friends having fun at the table. He wants to make sure everyone is having a good time. And its hard to do that when you feel unwanted.

The best kind of player is the munchkin who controls his or her urges and simply plays nerfed characters. They commonly fall into trying to do odd things like optimize counter-spelling or own considerable face with basketweaving.

[streakster]

Hmm. Astral, you're probably right. I guess I just assumed there - munchkin bad social skills, optimizer good, etc. So lets see If I can't revise, here...


Non-Dnd Player: -Rp -Game - Society
Roll a character? What?

Doesn't like the game.


Prima Donna (Formerly Actor): +RP -Game -Society
I'm not done yet! We haven't even gotten to chapter two of my backstory!

This is their epic story, not yours, so sit down and listen to their backstory. Did you know they want to be an author someday?



Actor: +RP -Game +Society
At least I'm getting better at the death scenes...

Here to roleplay, and couldn't care less about the the whole dice thing. Still, a nice fellow, and does the best he can to help out during the boring non-RP bits.



Jerk: +RP +Game -Society
Whatever, dork.

Yeah, we all know this guy. He's just a jerk. (Seriously, what is his deal?)



Optimizer: +RP +Game +Society
Can't we all get along?

Your bog standard DnD player.



Munchkin: -RP +Game -Society
Waddaya mean, I can't play Pun-Pun?

Here for big numbers, and nothing else. Wants to overshadow the group as well as the enemies. If he ever actually RP's, expect it to be boasting or intimidation as others tremble at his might. Breaks rules, cheats, uses old, weird splats - whatever it takes.



Powergamer: -RP +Game +Society
40d6, baby! Umm, I mean, "Take that, villain?

Here for the more mechanical side of things - but nice enough to limit himself for the group. Plays smart but fair. His backstory, nine times out of ten, is revenge on the barbarians/orcs/necromancer that killed his parents.

[KitsuneKionchi]

The Distraction: -Rp -Game +Society
How many...oh...uuh...what's a skill?

Doesn't know the rules very well and doesn't care to learn. Doesn't care about story but doesn't break character. Usually playing a character made for him by a friend or a prebuilt. But he still plays because, god-bless him, he loves being with his friends.

Usually is the one who remembers to order the pizza...but can often times be "that guy" who breaks the mood of the game to show off a 4chan meme or have everyone listen to a 'bitchin' song he just got'.

[mostlyharmful]

Much love, Streaks, but I disagree with this version because it puts tabletop in a sliding scale of Game versus Roleplay when I think that these definitions are more helpfully described as a triangle between Game, Roleplay, and Social Views.

Perhaps what we need is a two way sliding scale with three catagories in each, some way of pigeon holing on the basis of two random and arbitrarily defined characteristics that nobody even agrees on in the first place.... perhaps that is the way out of this mess????!!>???!11!

[AstralFire]

Actually, we have pretty good agreement in the topic for the definitions - most posts are retyping the same general idea or concept, with various refinements. Almost no one falls nearly into a single category, but they are useful as guides.

[mostlyharmful]

Actually, we have pretty good agreement in the topic for the definitions - most posts are retyping the same general idea or concept, with various refinements. Almost no one falls nearly into a single category, but they are useful as guides.

Yes. I admit it. I was going for the cheap point about trying to shoehorn a topic this complex into a grid system simply because Ethics is my passion and the alignment system makes me want to hit something with a big stick but it does seem to be a thing. Obereoni and all that, that power to punk ratio of your character is emphatically not the same thing as immersion to idiot rating, some people try to tie them together and it seems most of us (me very much included) just can't get behind that.

[Tyndmyr]

Optimizer: Someone who tries to optimize torwards a particular goal. This may or may not coincide with being a powergamer.

Powergamer: He's out to be powerful. He might not actually be good at it, but he's trying. If he is good at it, he's likely also an optimizer.

Munchkin: Willing to do anything to be successful, including bending or breaking rules, and isn't generally a team player. Not all optimizers or power gamers are munchkin, but all munchkin at least attempt to power game.

[Tiki Snakes]

Personally, the way I understand it and view it from experience and board-skimming;

Optimiser; A Powergamer, largely. The term often used by a Powergamer to describe themselves in a Politically-correct way, as the term Power-Gamer has (rightly or wrongly) certain negative connotations attatched to it.
Someone who likes to build powerful and competant characters wherever possible.

Powergamer; Someone who likes to build powerful characters. Is often unhappy with the idea of playing a 'sub-optimal' character in some way. Cross-over with Optimiser. Often mistaken for a Munchkin.

Munchkin; Someone who wants to play a powerful character, but is not limited by concience or morality to stay inside the actual rules of the game. Will take any advantage they can over the world, the dm, and even the players, whether it is supposed to work that way or not.
Ie; A Powergamer who cheats. Often, they aren't actually very good at building competant or powerful characters.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Optimizer: A person who can take a concept, and make it mechanically viable, or even powerful. An example of this would be my character Takahashi no Onisan. I took a CW Samurai, and made him powerful enough to be able to hold his own in Test of Spite.

Powergamer: A person who creates a mechanically powerful character, using mechanics as the sole point of reference for building the character, then comes up with a back story to fit this unusual build.

The difference between these two:

An Optimizer will consider a set of restrictions or limitations on character creation to be a challenge, a Powergamer will find them restrictive.

Then, there's the Munchkin. He acts like a Powergamer, but without regard to the rules. So he'll make a Hellfire Warlock, uses Legacy Champion to increase the damage his Hellfire does, and forget to tell the GM that it does Con damage every shot. Failing that, he'll use Gestalt character creation rules in a non-gestalt game, becase 'it wasn't on the ban list'. In a gestalt game, he will use dual-progression classes because 'it isn't explicitly banned, merely suggested to avoid using'.

For example:

A GM has banned the Cleric class.

The Optimizer will create a Druid with the feat Spontaneous Healer so he can still be an effective healer while contributing to the party in a meaningful way. Alternately, he may play a Favored Soul to get spontaneous Heal spells. Either way, you can be sure that this character will be effective at keeping the party going, at the very least.

The Powergamer will shrug, and make a Wizard/Incantatrix/Iot7V, using early entry method for Incantatrix to squeeze all 10 levels of Incantatrix in and all 7 of Iot7V.

The Munchkin will make an Omnicaster with full spellcasting in Divine, Arcane, Psionic, and a few others, using Cloistered Cleric because only 'straight cleric' was banned...

[Tyndmyr]

There's an early entry mechanism for Incanatrix?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

There's an early entry mechanism for Incanatrix?

I'm fairly certain there is, since I'm fairly certain it doesn't have skill requirements...

[taltamir]

Perhaps what we need is a two way sliding scale with three catagories in each, some way of pigeon holing on the basis of two random and arbitrarily defined characteristics that nobody even agrees on in the first place.... perhaps that is the way out of this mess????!!>???!11!

do not mock the pigeon holing cabal, they do not like it when people mock them. You would not like it if they did not like you...

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Perhaps what we need is a two way sliding scale with three catagories in each, some way of pigeon holing on the basis of two random and arbitrarily defined characteristics that nobody even agrees on in the first place.... perhaps that is the way out of this mess????!!>???!11!

Well, if you want a two-way grid, I came up with the following "player alignment" grid in a thread on alignment where we were debating these terms as well:

Lawful Good: Optimizer. He does what he can within constraints to build a great character. He finds that limits enhance his creativity, and he builds to the power level of the group to ensure that everyone's even.

Neutral Good: Casual Gamer. She's here mostly to have fun. As long as she's having fun, and everyone else is having fun, she's happy.

Chaotic Good: Actor. He likes to explore the world and get in character, and his motto is "What would [character] do?" He does what he can to ensure other PCs get their "screen time" as well.

Lawful Neutral: Rules Lawyer. This guy cares about RAW more than anything else. Whether rulings favor PCs or the DM, whether rulings are a bit off or far off, it doesn't matter; he just wants to make sure the rules are followed.

True Neutral: Girlfriend. She's here mostly because the DM (or occasionally another player) asked her to show up and try it. She doesn't really know what she wants and participates erratically.

Chaotic Neutral: Escapist. This guy is there to play a half-fiend three-tentacled wacky creature, insult the king to see what happens, and otherwise let off some steam from his daily life and/or be as unrealistic as possible.

Lawful Evil: Munchkin. He stays within the rules, if only by the barest possible adherence to a vague rule, and does his absolute utmost to build the best possible character--personality? What personality?

Neutral Evil: Powergamer. He makes a powerful build and bends his character's personality in favor of getting what's best for the player. He wants to win D&D, and that's all he cares about.

Chaotic Evil: Party-Killer. He just loves causing havoc, and will backstab, steal, and do whatever else to screw up the game that he can.

There you go, a metagame alignment system. Good means you help the party, evil means you hurt the party, and morally neutral means you do a bit of both (intentionally or not). Law means you favor mechanics, chaos means you favor roleplaying, and ethically neutral means you favor both or neither depending on the situation.

[PhoenixRivers]

Optimizer: I want to be effective.

Powergamer: I want to Win every encounter, and shine.

Munchkin: I want to win at any cost, regardless of balance, or fun. I want to be the biggest baddest guy in town in every town, and every party.

[Ravens_cry]

The way I define it, the optimizer is pretty much everyone. Almost all of us like our character to be effective, with different levels of how much effort we are willing to put in it. A powergamer is player who finds great satisfaction with the process of optimization. The munchkin takes it to a greater extreme then other players in the group and does not care if it ruins the game for others. A munchkin may or may not cheat, though they often do interpret the rules as best helps them, and act offended when others don't see things their way.
That is how I see it anyway.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Jerk: +RP +Game -Society
Whatever, dork.

Yeah, we all know this guy. He's just a jerk. (Seriously, what is his deal?)

I like most of these descriptions. They correctly place a high value on social skills at the table; the most highly-regarded of the -Society character types is the one not at the table. But I'd go further with the one I quoted, because this player-type can be the very worst of the bunch.

The Munchkin might destroy encounters or entire story-lines with questionable rules interpretation-maneuvers and then pout when the DM vetoes it. The Prima Donna might attempt to steal the spotlight for his own epic backstory and pout whenever his tragic story is ignored.

But your Jerk (or, as I would call him, the Marty Stu player) will take over encounters and entire storylines. He will maximize his face skills to ensure that he and his tragic/epic backstory dominates every social encounter. And the worst part is that, while the players can interrupt a Prima Donna's soliloquy, and the DM will veto a Munchkin, the Marty Stu player can be skillful enough to maintain his terrible grasp on the game.

I've only heard horror stories of such players, but I'm sure they're out there, waiting for me to stumble into the wrong game...

[Uin]

The Distraction: -Rp -Game +Society
How many...oh...uuh...what's a skill?

Doesn't know the rules very well and doesn't care to learn. Doesn't care about story but doesn't break character. Usually playing a character made for him by a friend or a prebuilt. But he still plays because, god-bless him, he loves being with his friends.

Basically the group I DM in a nutshell. It would be nice if they tried to learn the rules. The better your players get the more shenanigans you can through at them. They walk around like mundane commoners when they really need to be casting See Invisible to spot the Rogue/Wizard stealing their loot and cast Dispel magic to drop them out of the sky. It is unlikely I'll suffer the problem of having my main recurring "bad" guy killed before her time.

Saying that, we do have a lot of fun.

[Kurald Galain]

OK, these words get thrown around alot and I'm curious how different people define them.

In my opinion -

Optimizer. Somebody who compares the various options for his build, and picks the best. Note that what is "best" can vary; for instance, you can optimize a character for versatility, or for speed, or for doing flashy things (where being flashy is not necessarily the same as being effective). This applies primarily to character building. It has no negative connotations. It also implies a certain amount of learning: while a beginning optimizer may think that Weapon Focus is a good feat in 3E, an optimizer should eventually learn from mistakes and realize better options.

Powergamer: Similar to an optimizer, but where an optimizer acts that way because he likes the challenge, a powergamer does it because he wants to be powerful. This is a subtle but important difference, and it means the term "powergaming" has some negative connotations that "optimizer" doesn't. A powergamer tends to optimize for power only (not for versatility, or fun, or whatever else) and tends to use dubious interpretations of rules whenever this leads to a more powerful character.

Munchkin: A munchkin just wants to win the game, and hasn't realized the paradox therein. It is overall a negative term, and applies primarily during the game. A munchkin doesn't necessarily have any skill at building or optimizing, and is liable to throw a tantrum over his mistakes rather than learn from them. The munchkin is liable to get upset if his favorite option is not allowed, or doesn't work in a particular encounter for whatever reason, or if upstaged or defeated by something. Comes near the bottom on the list of kinds of people you may want to play with.

[Tyndmyr]

I'm fairly certain there is, since I'm fairly certain it doesn't have skill requirements...

Two feats, third level casting, and Im pretty sure it requires Knowledge(Arcana). May be more. Feats can be lined up for quick entry, sure, and there are ways to get second level casting quickly, but third level arcane casting faster than normal? I'd love to know that trick.

[Indon]

Everyone who improves their character's power, within any parameters, solely to increase the character's power is an optimiser.

Powergamers are individuals whose maximum optimisation level still fits in with the game's social contract (and in fact they may want to renegotiate that contract so that they can introduce a wider range of optimisation opportunities). They, are a subset of optimisers.

Individuals who violate the social contract of the game (often, but not always, by outright breaking the rules) in the course of optimising are munchkins, and are also a subset of optimiser.

My definition is distinct from the others only insofar as the last two categories can apply to the same player in different games, which would explain some of the conceptual overlap between the two.

[Matthew]

Pre 2000 powergamers and munchkins were pretty much the same thing; the main difference being that the former were good at creating "twinked out" characters, whilst the latter were bad at it.

The "powergamer" might tell you about the difference between the bladesinging kit and the bladesinging proficiency, and why it pays to combine the latter with fighting with two weapons; he may complain if the game master recognises this abuse and house rules it away.

The "munchkin" will probably tell you about his twentieth level halfling fighter/magician/thief who rides his celestial dragon through the cosmos when not otherwise engaged with the harem of 100,000 young ladies (most of whom are high level ninja-assassins) at his imperial palace situated on his own personal demi-plane.

The "optimiser" is a new term that has come into existence with the increasing presence of an on-line D&D community, and seems to be linked to the proliferation of D20/3e character creation options. Many powergamers and munchkins have labelled themselves optimisers to avoid the stigma of the other two terms. In fact, though, powergamers and optimisers are pretty much the same; both seek to create the most powerful or effective character that they can within defined limits, and the individuals within the groups will vary with regard to their other qualities and aims. Defining one as "bad" and the other as "good" is a false dichotomy.

[Tyndmyr]

Optimizer is definitely not a new term.

[Matthew]

Optimizer is definitely not a new term.

In the parlance of D&D it is, as far as I am aware. Never encountered it in that context prior to 2000; I could be wrong though.

[Tiki Snakes]

Is Optimizer a new term? Well, I only started encountering it VERY recently.

Here's a massively unscientific litmus test for you;

Powergamer@ Urban Dictionary 4 Definitions.

Optimizer@ Urban Dictionary No Definitions.

If nothing else, it doesn't seem to have entered the Zeitgeist yet.

[AstralFire]

That owes something to the fact that in online gaming, everyone optimizes - and online gaming is bigger than tabletop. Powergamer, however, still has a definite (if marginal) usage there, although hardcore is the preferred term.

[jiriku]

Most all that could be said, has been said. But to offer my two coppers, most of the gamers I've played with aren't optimizers. I'd just call them casual gamers.

Casual gamers know the rules well enough to build and play their own characters, but they often can't tell which options are weak or strong, and they don't scour rulebooks looking for ways to improve. They mostly just take what treasure they're given, and never plan their character build more than a level ahead.

Casual gamers are pretty lukewarm on the roleplaying front too. They don't write backstories, and generally RP their character as a fantasy version of themselves.