Xykon's Weakness

[Dusk Eclipse]

Not sure if this is worthy to have its own thread but my gut instinc tell me so.

Anyway after rereading Comic #444 and Haley's coment on "sneaking a look into the MM" it just suddenly striked me that Durkon maybe the only character (Apart from V) that can easily damage Xykon.

Lich's have DR 15/Bludgeon and Magic and only Durkon uses a bludgeoning weapon and the level the OotS are (14ish plus) I think his Hammer would be enchanted, anyother PC would have to deal more than 15 points of damage per hit to constantly damage Xykon. Besides that I am sure that Thor's Might would give him and edge in damage output.

So the humble Cleric has the Achiles Hell of the epic Lich.

So what does the Playground thinks?

[Elfin]

DR 15/Bludgeoning and Magic isn't much of an obstacle to any 14th level character. Even Roy, who's a fighter (not a very good class), and who's behind the others, level-wise, should be doing at least 30-40 points of damage on a single hit, and on a full attack triple that.

[Mugen Nightgale]

Maybe that's how Durkon dies. After realizing that he rushes into the abomination and gets killed after an Epic Battle that'll put him in the Hall of Awesome. Or not. Anyways that's an entertaining theory.


edit: Why isn't Fighter a good class???

[AshDesert]

A bit of a moot point considering that Roy has a +5 Greatsword (negating any DR), and that as a THFing Fighter he'd easily be able to do way more than 15 points of damage per attack with PA. Come to think of it, Elan also has a +3 keen Rapier, again negating Xykon's DR. And those are the only magic weapons specifically mentioned in the comic, it's very conceivable for Haley to have a magic bow and the Belkster to have a set of magic daggers, especially at level 14.

[Elfin]

Haley's bow is a +5 Icy Burst Longbow; so yea, although I don't want to sound harsh, this is a bit of a moot point.

[Luna2048]

A bit of a moot point considering that Roy has a +5 Greatsword (negating any DR), and that as a THFing Fighter he'd easily be able to do way more than 15 points of damage per attack with PA. Come to think of it, Elan also has a +3 keen Rapier, again negating Xykon's DR. And those are the only magic weapons specifically mentioned in the comic, it's very conceivable for Haley to have a magic bow and the Belkster to have a set of magic daggers, especially at level 14.

I think you're thinking of DR 15/Bludgeoning OR Magic, not Bludgeoning AND magic.

[Dusk Eclipse]

DR 15/Bludgeoning and Magic isn't much of an obstacle to any 14th level character. Even Roy, who's a fighter (not a very good class), and who's behind the others, level-wise, should be doing at least 30-40 points of damage on a single hit, and on a full attack triple that.

Assuming Roy is 14 level with a BAB of 14/9/4 the DR would apply Three times, and 35 is still a big number.

Also The DR of Xykon is Bluegeon AND Magic so the weapon must posses but qualities to overcome the DR

Edit: Ninja'ed

[Catch]

A bit of a moot point considering that Roy has a +5 Greatsword (negating any DR), and that as a THFing Fighter he'd easily be able to do way more than 15 points of damage per attack with PA. Come to think of it, Elan also has a +3 keen Rapier, again negating Xykon's DR. And those are the only magic weapons specifically mentioned in the comic, it's very conceivable for Haley to have a magic bow and the Belkster to have a set of magic daggers, especially at level 14.

Liches have DR 15/magic and bludgeoning. A weapon has to be of both categories, otherwise it would read DR 15/magic or bludgeoning.

EDIT: I wasted time with formatting. Blasted ninjas.

[Dusk Eclipse]

edit: Why isn't Fighter a good class???

At Higher levels the pure amage output of a Fighter is a LOT less than other
classes (especially casters), and in any other situation apart from combat they are practically useless.

[Elfin]

Definitely - even a blaster caster like V does much more damage than a fighter, and a 20th-level fighter without magical aid could be defeated by a 5th, even 3rd level wizard's fly/web/glitterdust.

[JonestheSpy]

Definitely - even a blaster caster like V does much more damage than a fighter, and a 20th-level fighter without magical aid could be defeated by a 5th, even 3rd level wizard's fly/web/glitterdust.

You know, I gotta say I get really tired of these examples that assume the non-wizard is sitting around twiddling their thumbs.

In this case, the remedy is called a composite longbow.

"Oh look, the low-level wizard cast fly. "

Thunk. Thunk. Thunk. Thunk.

That, sir, is an ex-low level wizard.

[Berserk Monk]

Lich's have DR 15/Bludgeon and Magic and only Durkon uses a bludgeoning weapon

Roy's sword has a +5 bonus and was built to harm undead.

Besides that I am sure that Thor's Might would give him and edge in damage output.

Liches are immune to lightning damage.

[Forbiddenwar]

back on topic, yes Durkon is suitable built for fighting undead. But then, most clerics are.

[SensFan]

You know, I gotta say I get really tired of these examples that assume the non-wizard is sitting around twiddling their thumbs.

In this case, the remedy is called a composite longbow.

"Oh look, the low-level wizard cast fly. "

Thunk. Thunk. Thunk. Thunk.

That, sir, is an ex-low level wizard.

What if the Wizard starts with Invisibility?

[Berserk Monk]

At Higher levels the pure amage output of a Fighter is a LOT less than other
classes (especially casters), and in any other situation apart from combat they are practically useless.

That's why you turn everything into a combat situation.

[Forbiddenwar]

Roy's sword has a +5 bonus and was built to harm undead.

undead yes, liches no, as far as we know, the DM still applies

Liches are immune to lightning damage.

Huh?
Thors might is not a lightning damage spell

[Dusk Eclipse]

Roy's sword
Liches are immune to lightning damage.

Thor's Might is the spell that increases Durkon's Size category, Thor's Lighting is the spell wich "launches" lighting

Edit: Ninjaed.....again

[Berserk Monk]

undead yes, liches no, as far as we know, the DM still applies

When did liches stop being undead?

[Tre of the Wood]

What if the Wizard starts with Invisibility?

Lets see... "Oh no! I'm a 20'th level character with no way of countering invisibility! I only got to this high a level on pure luck! Woe is me!

Honestly, a fighter is a bit tough, but any self-respecting player knows how to equip their fighter with the right equipment to deal with casters. This anywhere from items of protection (to help with saving throws) and a high HP total, with a small assortment of magical trinkets, to Artemis Entreri and Charon's Claw.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Lets see... "Oh no! I'm a 20'th level character with no way of countering invisibility! I only got to this high a level on pure luck! Woe is me!

Honestly, a fighter is a bit tough, but any self-respecting player knows how to equip their fighter with the right equipment to deal with casters. This anywhere from items of protection (to help with saving throws) and a high HP total, with a small assortment of magical trinkets, to Artemis Entreri and Charon's Claw.

"a 20th-level fighter without magical aide "

It is a hypothetical situation

[Kish]

"a 20th-level fighter without magical aide "

It is a hypothetical situation

A 20th-level fighter with no magic items says, "Well, that sucks. However. I'm better off than my companion here, the wizard, who, likewise having no magical items like, say, a spellbook, is pretty close to being a level 20 commoner."

[Lvl45DM!]

well i dont play 3rd edition but in old school 1st we had this thing called detect invisibilty as a skill everyone has that can get close 100% success at 20th level. Or you know he takes blind fighting or something, dont tell me theres no mundane way to learn to fight an invisible opponent.
theres nothing of this sort in modern d and d? wow that upped the ampage on a 2nd level spell
plus even if the fighter cant touch the wizard theres no way the wizard can do more than singe the fighters toenails at such a low level

[Mugen Nightgale]

Not only Thor's Might. There are a lot of spells in the cleric repertoire that would make Xyckon's unlife harder.


Ok, since off-topic is on. Why every melee class has to rush into fights like a suicidal moron? Why people can't assume that a lvl 20 fighter would have some kind of strategy? The caster vs melee showdown is always described like this:
"The caster buffs himself and the enemy stays there patiently waiting for him to finish all his preparations to then rush into deaths clutches."

We all know that wizzies get their ultra uber powerful spells in higher lvls. But didn't we learn something from Belkars fight with Miko and Xyckons fight with V? Power isn't about spells and class features.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Not only Thor's Might. There are a lot of spells in the cleric repertoire that would make Xyckon's unlife harder.

I said Thor's Might because thats the only spell (That I recall right now) that Durkon have cast that could be used againts Xykon...maybe the cure X wounds line and heal.

[archon_huskie]

No. Some people can only think in terms of what is stated in the rulebooks.

[Zevox]

Roy's sword has a +5 bonus and was built to harm undead.

Still doesn't overcome Xykon's DR, though, since it isn't a bludgeoning weapon, so it'll still do 15 less damage per hit.

But yes, Durkon is the member of the Order best suited to fighting Xykon, both because of his weapon of choice and because he's a Cleric. Being Undead, Liches are pretty vulnerable to Clerics. Cure <level> Wounds and Heal (especially Heal) can really hurt them, and other anti-undead spells (Searing Light, for instance, which will do 10d8 damage per shot with no save) and buffs to help him fight better can really ruin any undead's day.

Zevox

[Lvl45DM!]

Woah wait...a cleric is well suited to fighting undead?
In the words of Fighter:you just blew me!

[JonestheSpy]

"a 20th-level fighter without magical aide "

It is a hypothetical situation

Still plenty of options. Starts out Invisible? Okay, toss a molotov cocktail in the square the wizard was just standing in. Or fire your five arrows into that square - even at a 50% miss chance, you'll probably hit at least twice. And he only gets one offensive spell of before becoming visible again anyway.

Really, though, a fighter's main strength is being the Energizer Bunny. After three or four encounters, a wizard who tries to dominate the field is going to be pretty depleted, while a fighter will be just as effective as he was at the beginning of the first round of the first battle. Which brings us back to Xykon-bashing: to really go for the win, the OotS would want to reverse the normal progression of adventurers fighting the big bad guy. Instead of the party spending their resources fighting through minions before reaching him, they should make Xykon fight a bunch of small battles that aren't enough to make him retreat completely but still use up spells before the final confrontation.

[Hurkyl]

"a 20th-level fighter without magical aide "

It is a hypothetical situation

If the fighter isn't allowed to have magic available to him, then the wizard isn't allowed to have hit points available to him.

[Morty]

Somehow, I doubt Xykon is going to be defeated in a standard boss fight straight out of a D&D session. Though Roy's new anti-spellcaster feat is bound to be used, so he will fight him at least for a while. Still, I doubt Xykon's defeat will be in a regular fight.