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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
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    Default Long: Please review my house rules and comment.

    I've DMed before, but not in a couple decades. My players run the full range of rules knowledge as well as degrees of munchkinism. I have players that can give lessons in a min/max post, and players that need to be told "the roll of 16 goes in your fighter's str, not int."

    One way I have tried to cope it to knock off the high powered top of DnD. This way the normal players are not completely made irrelevant by the munchkins, and it makes it easier for a "new" DM like myself. With that said, here are the rules. Please comment, and let me know what is good/bad, should be added/removed. Thanks!

    The world is <2000 years old. Players can change the world into something different than what they are used to. For example, the Draw race is just getting frustrated with the High elves and their elitism. Players can try to forge a peace between the races or hasten what is slowly becoming enmity and war.

    Some tactics that players are used to in a well established world can't be used. They are just not perfected enough to be commonplace. Some of what does not currently exist for player characters:

    1. Characters:
    1 ● 30 point buy, Max hp for first level, average (keeping decimals) for all else. Please keep total classes/prestige classes to 4 or less. Please don't bring a char into the party with an alignment that is contrary to all others, or who is going to boss other characters around ("All of you must act in accordance to my alignment...").
    2 ● Time and Space warp around the characters. If you missed 3 sessions, and then show up, your character shows up where the party is (even in the 5th level of a dungeon on another plain).
    3 ● No metagaming please: Your character knows what he/she knows, not what you know. There is nothing in the rules saying you can't make gunpowder, but your character would know how.
    4 ● New characters will appear without magic items or significant cash.

    2. Unused Books:
    1 ● Exalted deeds, Tomb of battle, Tomb of magic

    3. Unused Races:
    1 ● +LA races, Changeling, Kobold
    ask

    4. Unused Classes:
    1 ● Archivist, Lion totem. Erodite
    2 ● Artificers, Psionics for now

    5. Unused Feats:
    1 ● Robilar's Gambit, Mother Cyst, Leadership(s)
    2 ● Almost all "Reserve" Feats (ask)

    6. Unused Prestige Classes (PRC):
    1 ● Initiate of the Seven Fold, Incantatrix, Shadow Caster, Initiate of Mystra, Spelldancer , Planar Shepherd
    2 ● Mage of the Arcane Order (Not overpowered, just needs a well established mage school)
    3 ● Radiant Servant of Pelor (most prcs have pros-and-cons. This one has 0 cons)
    ask

    7. Tactics:
    1 ● Grappling, tripping. Most everything is allowed that is allowed in other people's campaigns.
    Leadership, DMM and Persistence, Craven for example are not allowed, as no one allows them.
    2 ● Retreat causes AoO (offsets the above somewhat)
    3 ● Players can control only one of the following per round: Character, mount, familiar, companion, charmed mod, follower, animal, henchman, clone, summoned, undead minion, etc.
    4 ● Makes no sense to tumble past a lvl 1 Wizard the same as a lvl 20 Fighter. Tumble is a contest skill now: Tumbler's Skill (rank + dex ) + 2 + d20 vs Defender's skill (lvl + dex + d20). +5 dc per additions tumbles/rnd.

    8. Magic:
    1 ● Magic is slightly weaker that you are used to. All continuous effect spells (and permanent ones) need an infinitesimal amount of effort from the caster to continue. If the caster is unconscious or dead, the effects end, unless exp is spent (as in Permanency spell, and magic item creation).
    2 ● Conservations of EXP: You cast a 1000exp Gate to bring in a Solar. It can't cast a 5000exp wish for you. The solar will come, but it would have used its wish for the day. To get a Solar with wish, your gate costs 6000exp.
    3 ● Plot/Adventure ending spells come at a later level: Know Alignment, Detect Evil, Detect Thought, Augury, Contact other Planes. In general, ask about "Divination" spells/abilities.
    4 ● Other banned spells: Shivering Touch, Greater Mighty Wallop
    5 ● There is no taint or classes that use it.
    6 ● Some magic has benefit vs. cost. They go together. If you are immune to the cost, you don't get the benefit. Ex. Celerity's dazing effect is the cost. If you are immune to it, you don't get the benefit.

    9. General:
    1 ● Please do not argue about a rule or house-rule that you do not care about. If you are a fighter, you really don't care if Detect Thought is an 8th level spell. I believe in our current legal system, they call this having "standing."


    10. Goal
    1 ● Game shouldn't be DM vs. Player. It's an escalating conflict that ends with neither side happy.
    2 ● Most of the house rules are put in to remove some strategies that make some characters much more powerful that other characters, thus making their contribution irrelevant. The alternative is to ban these tactics as they occur, but in my experience stating all up front causes fewer clashes.



    ------------- Edit: Reply to People's comments -------------------
    Wow. A lot of comments in a short time. tThanks! Let's get to them:

    @Blackfang108 and @Tyndmyr
    Hehe. I corrected Tome's spelling :) That book has some crazy stuff in it (and I don't have it)
    No psionics just to make things simpler for me at the beginning. I will probably allow it later. For now, I'll do without the complications (and multiple actions) that many psionic powers allow.

    @Kylarra and @Boci and @Tyndmyr and @Myou
    There are some killer reserves out there. The one that teleports you away as an immediate action each round, and the one that gives you an elemental all day will put too much of a power differential between those who will (ab)use it and those you don't know what a reserve feat is. I do plan on allowing reasonable uses of Reserve Feat, which is why it says"(ask)" after it.

    @Sinfire Titan and @Boci and @Tyndmyr and @Zore and @lsfreak
    I do not want them to ever custom buy magic items. I want to keep strict control over it, for my sanity, and the fact that a few of my players will have no clue what to buy, and a few will know too well. At that point my banned magic item list will grow to 3 pages...
    It falls upon me to make sure the new character gets a bunch of items quickly.

    @Boci
    Yes, standard point buy rules, starting at 8.
    I am afraid of kobolds because of all the dragon blood cheese things that can happen.
    hit you during your turn whether you hit him or not. (Can't remember details)
    If I have missed an OP tactic, please let me know. Sadly asking players not to min/max has been tried by other DMs and failed

    @Boci and @Zore
    I have seen Robillar Gambit used by one of my players to make an invincible fighter that


    @Tyndmyr and @Foryn Gilnith
    Grappling and tripping had to be banned when a certain person started doing it to dragons and larger. Please do not suggest I ban players ;)
    Thanks. I will ban the spiked chain :)

    @Zore
    Tumble is not impossible. All stats being equal (and the rogue should have a higher dex), the rogue has a +5 advantage over a similar level opponent. It is simply no longer automatic, like it was before.


    @Myrmex
    I was not aware of the power of calling spells. I have not a single incident in our campaigns since 3.5. Can you be specific, so I can keep an eye out for it?
    Agreed on Polymorph. I am watching it. For one thing, the lack of metagame means they can only change to what they have seen, and not to what they read on min/max forums.

    @Myou and @Aldizog and others
    As I said, asking people to play nice has not worked before. I can't say I blame them. Would you go up to an army solder and tell him stop doing 100 pushups, that makes your str OP? Adventurers who fight for their own and others' life or death should do the optimal thing. It is my job to make sure those with less knowledge are not made insignificant in comparison

    @Tyndmyr
    Thanks. Banned Whisper Gnome (makes gnome completely obsolete). We have had a few of these. You said there are OP races. If so, feel free to specify.

    A few people:
    Palor is in every way better than a generic Cleric, and completely destroys any thread of my throwing undead at them.

    Not sure why people call Craven balanced. I have yet to meet a rogue that thought another feat is better than +20 (at lvl 20) per sneak attack. Would you call a feat that adds 6d6 to each sneak attack balanced (average damage +21)? I think there is a feat that adds 1d6. So starting at character level 4, Craven makes the other feat obsolete.

    The limit of 1 action per player is to make combat go faster. Even at 2 actions limit per player, I would have some players that take the spotlight for twice as long as another. Uncontrolled "minions" follow the party like sleep-walkers.

    Buffs going away upon unconsciousness decreases caster power because it makes them afraid. The rule and its consequences have changed the way casters act. Now they cast and run because the entire host of enemy will run towards them to "free" their "Held" comrades.
    Last edited by monkey3; 2009-11-03 at 01:56 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Long: Please review my house rules and comment.

    It's good to know you aren't banning Tome of Battle, the most useful Melee book ever made, and Tome of Magic, a fun supplement.

    I'm assuming Incarnum is allowed, which would make me happy if I was playing.

    Why no psionics?

    EDIT: Boci, he's not banning The ToB. He's banning the Tomb of Battle. Different book.
    Last edited by Blackfang108; 2009-11-03 at 12:10 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    Somebody that pisses off a Warlock is going to go down fast. But with a Warlock, death will be a mercy because the Warlock is a secondary controller, and en route to killing you he'll first cripple you, then blind you, then set you on fire, then steal your girlfriend.
    "There is no overkill, there is only 'open fire' and 'I need to reload.'" - Howard Tayler

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Troll in the Playground
     
    WhiteWizardGirl

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    Default Re: Long: Please review my house rules and comment.

    Why no reserve feats?

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    Default Re: Long: Please review my house rules and comment.

    4 ● New characters will appear without magic items or significant cash.
    That's too harsh for dying. It makes Rezzing vital. The characters feel gimped if they die no matter what. Just make the new character start a level below his previous character, WBL and all. Noncasters can't take the loss of WBL and expect to survive.

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Long: Please review my house rules and comment.

    Sounds reasonable to me. I'd move 10.1 up to the top for emphasis.
    If you like what I have to say, please check out my GMing Blog where I discuss writing and roleplaying in greater depth.

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    Titan in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: Long: Please review my house rules and comment.

    Quote Originally Posted by monkey3 View Post
    1. Characters:
    1 ● 30 point buy, Max hp for first level, average (keeping decimals) for all else. Please keep total classes/prestige classes to 4 or less. Please don't bring a char into the party with an alignment that is contrary to all others, or who is going to boss other characters around ("All of you must act in accordance to my alignment...").
    Good call on the max HP and aligment thing. Total classes prestidge classes just limits players choices so I do not see a point. By point by 30 you mean all states start at 8?

    Quote Originally Posted by monkey3 View Post
    2 ● Time and Space warp around the characters. If you missed 3 sessions, and then show up, your character shows up where the party is (even in the 5th level of a dungeon on another plain).
    Fair enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by monkey3 View Post
    3 ● No metagaming please: Your character knows what he/she knows, not what you know. There is nothing in the rules saying you can't make gunpowder, but your character would know how.
    Wouldn't call it a houserule, but yes, reasonable request,

    Quote Originally Posted by monkey3 View Post
    4 ● New characters will appear without magic items or significant cash.
    Why?


    Quote Originally Posted by monkey3 View Post
    3. Unused Races:
    1 ● +LA races, Changeling, Kobold
    I can understand you do not want to bother with LA, but why no kobolds and changlings? Pun-pun isn't the only reason to play a kobold.

    Quote Originally Posted by monkey3 View Post
    4. Unused Classes:
    1 ● Archivist, Lion totem. Erodite
    2 ● Artificers, Psionics for now
    By lion totem you mean the pouncing barbarian? Common house rule, but often unnessicary.

    Quote Originally Posted by monkey3 View Post
    5. Unused Feats:
    1 ● Robilar's Gambit, Mother Cyst, Leadership(s)
    I think you've over reacting to melee boosting options. Robilar's gambit is fine. The latter two are okay though.

    Quote Originally Posted by monkey3 View Post
    2 ● Almost all "Reserve" Feats (ask)
    Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by monkey3 View Post
    6. Unused Prestige Classes (PRC):
    1 ● Initiate of the Seven Fold, Incantatrix, Shadow Caster, Initiate of Mystra, Spelldancer , Planar Shepherd
    2 ● Mage of the Arcane Order (Not overpowered, just needs a well established mage school)
    3 ● Radiant Servant of Pelor (most prcs have pros-and-cons. This one has 0 cons)
    ask
    Fair enough, although on a side note I think Initiate of Mystra is just a feat. Also Radiant Servant of Pelor exists because a healbot cleric is considered a poor choice for the class. Its not OP.

    Quote Originally Posted by monkey3 View Post
    7. Tactics:
    1 ● Grappling, tripping. Most everything is allowed that is allowed in other people's campaigns.
    Leadership, DMM and Persistence, Craven for example are not allowed, as no one allows them.
    Craven is fine, DMM persist is only bad if your players pump their tuen attempt. Without doing that it is a reasonable tactic.


    [QUOTE=monkey3;7244726]2 ● Retreat causes AoO (offsets the above somewhat)

    Doesn't it already?

    Quote Originally Posted by monkey3 View Post
    3 ● Players can control only one of the following per round: Character, mount, familiar, companion, charmed mod, follower, animal, henchman, clone, summoned, undead minion, etc.
    Why? A limit of two is reasonable, but even then conjurers are screwed.

    Quote Originally Posted by monkey3 View Post
    4 ● Makes no sense to tumble past a lvl 1 Wizard the same as a lvl 20 Fighter. Tumble is a contest skill now: Tumbler's Skill (rank + dex ) + 2 + d20 vs Defender's skill (lvl + dex + d20). +5 dc per additions tumbles/rnd.
    Too complicated and damaging for rogues who need mobility. A more simple rule is make your tumble result equal your AC, and even that isn't used often.

    Quote Originally Posted by monkey3 View Post
    8. Magic:
    1 ● Magic is slightly weaker that you are used to. All continuous effect spells (and permanent ones) need an infinitesimal amount of effort from the caster to continue. If the caster is unconscious or dead, the effects end, unless exp is spent (as in Permanency spell, and magic item creation).
    2 ● Conservations of EXP: You cast a 1000exp Gate to bring in a Solar. It can't cast a 5000exp wish for you. The solar will come, but it would have used its wish for the day. To get a Solar with wish, your gate costs 6000exp.
    3 ● Plot/Adventure ending spells come at a later level: Know Alignment, Detect Evil, Detect Thought, Augury, Contact other Planes. In general, ask about "Divination" spells/abilities.
    4 ● Other banned spells: Shivering Touch, Greater Mighty Wallop
    5 ● There is no taint or classes that use it.
    6 ● Some magic has benefit vs. cost. They go together. If you are immune to the cost, you don't get the benefit. Ex. Celerity's dazing effect is the cost. If you are immune to it, you don't get the benefit.
    Fair enough, although the permenandt one ending when caster is unconuious may become a PITA.

    Quote Originally Posted by monkey3 View Post
    9. General:
    1 ● Please do not argue about a rule or house-rule that you do not care about. If you are a fighter, you really don't care if Detect Thought is an 8th level spell. I believe in our current legal system, they call this having "standing."
    Fair enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by monkey3 View Post
    10. Goal
    1 ● Game shouldn't be DM vs. Player. It's an escalating conflict that ends with neither side happy.
    2 ● Most of the house rules are put in to remove some strategies that make some characters much more powerful that other characters, thus making their contribution irrelevant. The alternative is to ban these tactics as they occur, but in my experience stating all up front causes fewer clashes.
    The problem is, you cannot balance the game by removing all thing you percieve as broken. I could make several overpowered characters using your houserules, but i wouldn't because that ruins the fun. generally, don't ban a class because its overpowered, just ask your players to be responsible.
    Last edited by Boci; 2009-11-03 at 12:20 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Tyndmyr's Avatar

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    Default Re: Long: Please review my house rules and comment.

    That's a decently long list of rules. I suggest the following modifications:

    Allow standard(or modified based on how wealthy your world is) WBL on new characters. This really becomes important later on, as you'll be way behind the power curve otherwise. If you want them to start slightly behind, have them start at -1 ECL. That gets fixed in time.

    Nothing wrong with Tome of Battle. Melee deserves nice things too.

    Pisonics are fine. Stick with the default transparency for magic/psionics, and they're pretty interchangeable.

    Grappling and tripping are banned? That seems to severely limit melee options.

    Retreat causes AoO is a rule Ive played with for many years. It tends to change combat a bit, and in general, makes things most lethal for the players. Its fine so long as you're aware of this, and that it's really easy for reach weapon types to get even more attacks this way. Fear the spiked chain.

    The magic buff quasi-concentration really doesn't matter much. If you've gone unconcious or dead, you're already out of the fight. It only really hurts still standing allies, who just lost their buffs. Be aware that this doesn't really depower the mage.

    Conservation of XP. At most, have making the solar cast wish cost the same as you casting wish. Any more is pointless. Realistically, I'd prefer a system where you randomize if the solar has cast wish before being summoned. It feels more real, and it still allows you to balance the xp spend/probability of benefit.

    Things like Detect Evil and Detect Thought aren't really much of an issue if you play them carefully, and use alignment as more than a label for who to kill. Divination is not usually all it's cracked up to be. Useful, sure. Not godmode.

    Taint is a variant rule anyhow, no harm in getting rid of it, and some balance benefits.
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  8. - Top - End - #8
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Long: Please review my house rules and comment.

    Quote Originally Posted by monkey3 View Post
    average (keeping decimals) for all else. Please keep total classes/prestige classes to 4 or less.
    Yay for decimals. Less so for the class limit. Why bother? Though this is a cliched example and not necessarily relevant, look at the wizard. Wizard only really needs 1 class, and might want a PrC for two. A martial character may very well need to dip around for power. Barbarian 1 to represent savage origins, Hexblade 2 to represent his emo past after being stranded away from his homeland, Fighter 2 to represent joining a proper army, some prestige class... if he changes focus again (i.e. wants to try any new technique), he's out of luck. Compare to a straight wizard, who can go Wizard/geometer/divine oracle or some setup like that easily. Or a wizard/ur-priest/MT.

    1 ● Grappling, tripping. Most everything is allowed that is allowed in other people's campaigns....Craven for example are not allowed, as no one allows them.
    This seems arbitrary, but it's not actually that irksome. It would make more sense if I had the context of what other peoples' campaigns are.

    2 ● Retreat causes AoO (offsets the above somewhat)
    Why ever bother using the withdraw action, then?

    3 ● Players can control only one of the following per round: Character, mount, familiar, companion, charmed mod, follower, animal, henchman, clone, summoned, undead minion, etc.
    I'm a bit confused. What happens if you don't control your character? Are you saying that direct control is only possible with one, and the others are under DM adjudication? Becuase otherwise mounts are sort of useless.

    3 ● Plot/Adventure ending spells come at a later level: Know Alignment, Detect Evil, Detect Thought, Augury, Contact other Planes. In general, ask about "Divination" spells/abilities.
    How is detect evil or alignment a plot ending event? So easy to defend against, and so very useless. So the politician is evil; you knew that already by virtue of his being a politician... You still don't have grounds to murder him. Or suspect him of anything more than you would his other amoral comrades.

    Everything else is either a good idea, a logical idea, or something that isn't worth caring about.

    EDIT:

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfire Titan View Post
    That's too harsh for dying. It makes Rezzing vital. The characters feel gimped if they die no matter what. Just make the new character start a level below his previous character, WBL and all. Noncasters can't take the loss of WBL and expect to survive.
    It's presumably in response to people looting the body. Just take all the old gear off the dead guy and sell it. You might even be able to get some cash for the body. And you save the money you'd spend on resurrecting.


    @ ToB, ToM, Incarnum, et cetera: Those would fall under things "nobody" allows. And while the sentiment is good, some are being a bit elitist in their defense of these alternate systems.
    Last edited by Foryn Gilnith; 2009-11-03 at 12:23 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Tyndmyr's Avatar

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    Default Re: Long: Please review my house rules and comment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kylarra View Post
    Why no reserve feats?
    Oh yeah, I forgot...this. Why no reserve feats? The majority are underpowered, and the good ones are situational.
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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Kobold

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    Default Re: Long: Please review my house rules and comment.

    Quote Originally Posted by monkey3 View Post
    1 ● 30 point buy, Max hp for first level, average (keeping decimals) for all else. Please keep total classes/prestige classes to 4 or less. Please don't bring a char into the party with an alignment that is contrary to all others, or who is going to boss other characters around ("All of you must act in accordance to my alignment...").
    This hits Melee far harsher than casters if you're going for balance. Total classes that is, alignment is a good one.

    Quote Originally Posted by monkey3 View Post
    4 ● New characters will appear without magic items or significant cash.
    Yeah I agree with the way too harsh sentiment here, WBL is a good chunk of most characters power.

    Quote Originally Posted by monkey3 View Post
    5. Unused Feats:
    1 ● Robilar's Gambit, Mother Cyst, Leadership(s)
    2 ● Almost all "Reserve" Feats (ask)
    Why are these 'unused'? I understand leadership but Robilar's gambit?

    Quote Originally Posted by monkey3 View Post
    7. Tactics:
    1 ● Grappling, tripping. Most everything is allowed that is allowed in other people's campaigns.
    Leadership, DMM and Persistence, Craven for example are not allowed, as no one allows them.
    2 ● Retreat causes AoO (offsets the above somewhat)
    3 ● Players can control only one of the following per round: Character, mount, familiar, companion, charmed mod, follower, animal, henchman, clone, summoned, undead minion, etc.
    4 ● Makes no sense to tumble past a lvl 1 Wizard the same as a lvl 20 Fighter. Tumble is a contest skill now: Tumbler's Skill (rank + dex ) + 2 + d20 vs Defender's skill (lvl + dex + d20). +5 dc per additions tumbles/rnd.
    Tumble has become nearly impossible to preform now. In addition I feel craven is not broken at all and you should reconsider allowing it. Also the rule for companions is okay, though it eliminates most summoner and companion builds. You might want to make an exception for a Ranger or lower-powered character and keep the rule for wizards, druids and the like.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Long: Please review my house rules and comment.

    I don't think limiting classes to 4 or less is an issue. Personally speaking, I've always viewed it to be my job as a DM to allow people to retroactively alter classes or homebrew them as appropriate rather than requiring a veritable hodgepodge of classes to represent things.
    A long time ago, in a galaxy far,
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  12. - Top - End - #12
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Long: Please review my house rules and comment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zore View Post
    Yeah I agree with the way too harsh sentiment here, WBL is a good chunk of most characters power.
    Which is why you loot the body of the guy you're not resurrecting, or spend a short sidequest designed solely to get loot. Or get a resurrection and keep party synchronity.

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    Default Re: Long: Please review my house rules and comment.

    I recommend making getting rid of calling spells, changing what's eligible to be called, and/or changing how they auto become your bitch when summoned. Being able to permanently have an outsider that has 2x your HD and follows your every command is just stupid, even if you can only take one action a round with either it or your caster.

    Get rid of the polymorph spells, or change the duration to rounds/level, make the bonuses enhancement bonuses, and ban shape change. At the very least get rid of shape change.

    Also highly recommend the inclusion of both psionics & tome of battle. Tome of battle gives melee a sort of casterlike mechanic which keeps them competitive past level 8, and psionics is a good system to make gishes and blasters with.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Long: Please review my house rules and comment.

    I'll just pick out anything I'd want to change.

    Classes: Allow all classes but the archivist (or just restrict archivists to cleric and druid spells), just tell players picking top tier classes that you expect them to play nice.

    Multiclassing: The number of classes you take has no relation to your power at all, please just drop this. xP

    HP: Round up or down, recording decimals is extra work.

    Tome of Battle: For the gods' sakes, allow it, or else your melee players will have almost nothing do do but attack actions all campaign. And it's well balanced in case that's your fear. A player of mine turned down ToB classes at the start of my campaign, then after a month or two, begged to convert their class to a ToB one. He foud that it was better balanced and more fun. Damn, I misread that. xD

    Reserve feats: Perfectly balanced, really, don't ban them.

    Radiant Servant: Only really overpowered in undead-focused games, otherwise it's just a little more fragile but better at healing. But if you like udead, then yes, ban it.

    Craven: Allow it. Why on Earth would anyone ban it? Rogues are hardly overpowered.

    Retreat: (Assuming you mean Withdrawl) Your AoO rule is kind of silly and nonsensical, and I don't see what purpose it serves.

    Controlling things: No. No no no no no no no. If their mount/familiar/summon/whatever is just going to stand around doing nothing unless they skip thier turn to tell it what to do, then all you do is soft-ban those things. So either outright ban them, or drop this rule.

    Continuous effects: How were these breaking the game? I'd drop this rule.

    Arguing: This rule is rather unfair - a guy playing a fighter has a much right to disagree with you as a guy playing a wizard. And anyway, what if he wants to play a wizard next time? Or just sees that a rule is treating his ally - or enemy - unfairly?


    I hope I helped. ^^
    Last edited by Myou; 2009-11-03 at 12:30 PM.

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    Default Re: Long: Please review my house rules and comment.

    Quote Originally Posted by monkey3 View Post
    4 ● New characters will appear without magic items or significant cash.
    Ouch. If you go through with this, be sure to take into account you've basically got someone useless following around the party by mid-levels.

    2. Unused Books:
    1 ● Exalted deeds, Tomb of battle, Tomb of magic
    I would highly suggest looking at ToB and ToM if you're afraid of unbalancing, because they don't (unless you also ban wizards, druids, and clerics, or they never batman or CoDzilla but only blast or heal). If it's for complexity reasons, add Magic of Incarnum to the list.

    5. Unused Feats:
    1 ● Robilar's Gambit, Mother Cyst, Leadership(s)
    2 ● Almost all "Reserve" Feats (ask)
    I wonder about these because none of them are really on the powerful side, except for Leadership and the Summon Elemental reserve feat in the context of a trap-heavy dungeon.

    Leadership, DMM and Persistence, Craven for example are not allowed, as no one allows them.
    Craven is hardly overpowered. I've never heard of someone banning it. Neither Persist nor DMM are broken, it's when you put them together and allow access to tons of Turn Undead-boosting stuff. So I'd ban DMM:Persist but not DMM nor Persist.

    3 ● Players can control only one of the following per round: Character, mount, familiar, companion, charmed mod, follower, animal, henchman, clone, summoned, undead minion, etc.
    Penalizing the paladin for playing a paladin? I'd be less passive-aggressive to just ban druids, paladins, and necromancers instead of crippling them.
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    Default Re: Long: Please review my house rules and comment.

    DMM is 100% broken. Anything that allows you to lower the cost of metamagic is.

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    Default Re: Long: Please review my house rules and comment.

    Okay, I'm not going to comment on specific points as others have. The real fundamental issue here - other than a lot of them being ridiculously harsh - is that they seem to be solutions in search of a problem.

    So if you could repeat the list again, with an example of just what problems you _think_ you're solving by making the rule (i.e. are you banning Kobolds because of Pun-Pun? because of Dragonwrought cheese?) - based on 10.2 you clearly have something in mind. You could get a lot more constructive suggestions if you'd make this clear.
    Last edited by Random832; 2009-11-03 at 12:51 PM.

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    Default Re: Long: Please review my house rules and comment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Random832 View Post
    Okay, I'm not going to comment on specific points as others have. The real fundamental issue here - other than a lot of them being ridiculously harsh - is that they seem to be solutions in search of a problem.

    So if you could repeat the list again, with an example of just what problems you _think_ you're solving by making the rule (i.e. are you banning Kobolds because of Pun-Pun? because of Dragonwrought cheese?) you could get a lot more constructive suggestions.
    Even without pun-pun/dragonwrought, kobolds are definitely on the powerful side for LA +0 races. Wizards just has their heads up their ass on judging the power of a race by only considering it in a single role- guy with stick. Kobolds make excellent casters & skillmonkeys.

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    Default Re: Long: Please review my house rules and comment.

    I think you have a lot of excellent ideas that will be great for your game. It might not be the right game for everybody on these boards, but I think it will be a good fit for a new DM and a mixed group of casual or novice gamers and optimizers. But make sure you tell this to the optimizers: "I know you can find things I've overlooked and still break the game. Please don't."

    Quote Originally Posted by monkey3 View Post
    4 ● New characters will appear without magic items or significant cash.
    I strongly support this for a new DM, and I really prefer the BECMI/2E version of magic item distribution over the 3E version. This way (combined with limits on what can be bought or crafted), the DM can control which magic items appear in the game. New PCs will be a bit underpowered, but I expect you'll make sure they catch up soon. It will certainly reduce the importance of "character builds" and narrow the gap between the optimizers and casual gamers.

    WBL is really poorly designed. You can have WBL that increases your power a lot (if you picked and chose the items you wanted), or that doesn't really do very much (if you happened to find +1 shadow silent half-plate and a +1 oozebane greatclub). I'd suggest ignoring WBL and handing out specific items based on the actual in-game experience and challenges.

    Quote Originally Posted by monkey3 View Post
    2. Unused Books:
    1 ● Exalted deeds, Tomb of battle, Tomb of magic
    I agree with you on these, and the latter 2 for the sake of keeping the game simpler to learn for the newbies. (ToM has some neat things but adds complexity.) On ToB: I don't think melee is going to need a boost in the game you described. In a casual game, it's a much better balance than in a optimized one. Now, if the optimizers are playing casters and the newbies are playing fighters, the fighters will be left way behind. If the newbies are playing casters with just a bit of guidance, and the optimizers are playing fighters but holding their tendencies in check a bit, the fighters will still be ahead (system mastery >>>>> class power) but the balance should be pretty good.

    Quote Originally Posted by monkey3 View Post
    2 ● Almost all "Reserve" Feats (ask)
    In practice, 3.5 ended up destroying the game balancing aspect of magic being limited by making scrolls and wands just too cheap and too easy to obtain. So a wizard using endless Fiery Burst is probably weaker than one using a Wand of Fireballs. If you want to make the limited amount of spells be an actual constraint at low-to-mid levels (likely your reason for removing the Reserve feats), limit the fungible wealth distributed so that crafting wands and scribing scrolls is more expensive. If you remove the magic item market, so magic items are not fungible wealth, then this measure doesn't cripple the non-casters.
    Last edited by Aldizog; 2009-11-03 at 01:11 PM.

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    Default Re: Long: Please review my house rules and comment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Myrmex View Post
    Even without pun-pun/dragonwrought, kobolds are definitely on the powerful side for LA +0 races. Wizards just has their heads up their ass on judging the power of a race by only considering it in a single role- guy with stick. Kobolds make excellent casters & skillmonkeys.
    That was just an example. And in that case why not give it a LA+1 (or a LA+1 for certain classes - if someone wants to play a kobold with a stick why not?)

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    Default Re: Long: Please review my house rules and comment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Myrmex View Post
    Even without pun-pun/dragonwrought, kobolds are definitely on the powerful side for LA +0 races. Wizards just has their heads up their ass on judging the power of a race by only considering it in a single role- guy with stick. Kobolds make excellent casters & skillmonkeys.
    Both of which need con.

    Quote Originally Posted by Myrmex View Post
    DMM is 100% broken. Anything that allows you to lower the cost of metamagic is.
    Please tell me you're joking.
    Last edited by Boci; 2009-11-03 at 12:54 PM.

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    Default Re: Long: Please review my house rules and comment.

    Kobolds are a decent race, yes, but other races, such as Whisper Gnomes do the skillmonkey, etc job just as well...and probably better.

    MM reducers only become broken as part of elaborate combos. Don't ban the individual pieces, just the wierd, twisted combos.
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    Default Re: Long: Please review my house rules and comment.

    DMM can be good or bad. Even the dreaded DMM:Persist can be okay if used to persist spells like Vigor(Fast Healing 1. Sure, you have infinite healing, but it's slow enough that in Combat it doesn't matter).

    As for Lion Totem, just switch the level 1 and 6 abilities around if you really think it's necessary. Sure, Barb's still get Pounce, but it's not a game breaker, just a useful ability, and at that point it's way more than a dip to get it. Still, this hurts, TWF more than anything else, and TWF is one of the weaker styles.
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    Default Re: Long: Please review my house rules and comment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    Both of which need con.
    Either use the jungle/desert variant or your +20 hide check.

    Please tell me you're joking.
    You disagree?

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    Default Re: Long: Please review my house rules and comment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Myrmex View Post
    Either use the jungle/desert variant or your +20 hide check.
    Hide does not help against fortitude saves. Con is a very important state and loosing it is crippling. Kobolds are a good choice, but I wouldn't say they were any more powerful than a human.

    Quote Originally Posted by Myrmex View Post
    You disagree?
    Yes, yes I do, it can be broken, but there are many ways in which it can be used as a reasonable ability.

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    Default Re: Long: Please review my house rules and comment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Kobolds are a decent race, yes, but other races, such as Whisper Gnomes do the skillmonkey, etc job just as well...and probably better.
    Just because X>Y doesn't mean Y is no longer >Z.

    MM reducers only become broken as part of elaborate combos. Don't ban the individual pieces, just the wierd, twisted combos.
    They really don't. A huge limitation to becoming Czilla is having to spend actions putting up buffs that will only last a battle. Persisting/Quickening those is a great work around, and essentially breaks the class. This also makes a blaster cleric pretty good. Not unbelievable, but better than what melee's going to be packing, and definitely better than any arcane casters.

    I would also recommend getting rid of metamagic rods.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    Hide does not help against fortitude saves. Con is a very important state and loosing it is crippling. Kobolds are a good choice, but I wouldn't say they were any more powerful than a human.
    If they can't target you, you don't have to make a fortitude save. And -2 con is hardly crippling. -4 con is crippling.

    Yes, yes I do, it can be broken, but there are many ways in which it can be used as a reasonable ability.
    In that case, all these rules are irrelevant, since as long as the abilities are used reasonably, it's not broken, right?
    Last edited by Myrmex; 2009-11-03 at 01:10 PM.

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    Default Re: Long: Please review my house rules and comment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Myrmex View Post
    Just because X>Y doesn't mean Y is no longer >Z.
    Well yes, obviously there are worse races.

    The point is, he's banning a race, when there are better, unbanned options available. This makes the ban pointless.

    They really don't. A huge limitation to becoming Czilla is having to spend actions putting up buffs that will only last a battle. Persisting/Quickening those is a great work around, and essentially breaks the class. This also makes a blaster cleric pretty good. Not unbelievable, but better than what melee's going to be packing, and definitely better than any arcane casters.
    DMM:Persist was already addressed as an exception. DMM Quicken doesn't change the fact that you're starting combat unbuffed, and using spells for each combat. It's nice, but not nearly so overpowering.

    If they can't target you, you don't have to make a fortitude save. And -2 con is hardly crippling. -4 con is crippling.
    Given the popularity of +con, Id consider even -2 con to be a significant drawback. And, good hiding or not, you will be targettable sometime.
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    Default Re: Long: Please review my house rules and comment.

    The only way DMM is broken is if you believe that:

    A: spending two feats isn't a big investment
    B: If there are no undead in the game, or those that are have absurd turning resistance
    and/or C: if it's used as an elaborate combo.

    For example, I'm in a campaign that's undead heavy, but I'm using DMM Quicken. While it is a powerful option, losing the ability to roll an "I win" attack against some common foes in the campaign is a decent offset, and it doesn't hurt that I'm taking two feats just to do it.

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    Default Re: Long: Please review my house rules and comment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Myrmex View Post
    If they can't target you, you don't have to make a fortitude save. And -2 con is hardly crippling. -4 con is crippling.
    Area affects? Mosters that do not rely on spot checks to find you? And good luck hitting stuff until you can take weapon finesse at level 3.


    Quote Originally Posted by Myrmex View Post
    In that case, all these rules are irrelevant, since as long as the abilities are used reasonably, it's not broken, right?
    Yes, that was the point in my first post.
    Last edited by Boci; 2009-11-03 at 01:18 PM.

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    Default Re: Long: Please review my house rules and comment.

    Turning sucks, and gets worse as you gain levels.
    Getting extra actions is always an I Win option.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Well yes, obviously there are worse races.

    The point is, he's banning a race, when there are better, unbanned options available. This makes the ban pointless.
    No, it just means he missed some races.

    DMM:Persist was already addressed as an exception. DMM Quicken doesn't change the fact that you're starting combat unbuffed, and using spells for each combat. It's nice, but not nearly so overpowering.
    Just because X>Y doesn't mean Y is no longer >Z.
    DMM Quicken means you're getting 2 actions per round about 10 levels before you normally would.

    Given the popularity of +con, Id consider even -2 con to be a significant drawback. And, good hiding or not, you will be targettable sometime.
    Meh. As I said; use a variant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    Area affects? Mosters that do not rely on spot checks to find you? And good luck hitting stuff until you can take weapon finesse at level 3.
    Darkstalker at level 6, sneak attack acid vials at low levels. And AoE's will mess anyone up with low HD, regardless of a 12 or 14 in con.

    Yes, that was the point in my first post.
    If he's playing with the munchkin mindset, he's going to need concrete rules, not a gentleman's agreement.
    Last edited by Myrmex; 2009-11-03 at 01:23 PM.

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