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    Default [3.5] Enchanting Undead...

    It seems my DM is deciding to foil me

    I play an Enchantress Wizard, mid-level. Normally, my job is to enchant (obviously), daze, charm, or just generally render enemies useless, and I've been pretty good at it. Too good for my DM's taste

    Recently, our characters got to go to the Ravenloft setting, and we were separated. I got paired up with the Cleric (thank GOD!), and we decided to head into some haunted place to rid the domain of the baddies that were bothering it. We entered the antechamber; we rolled Initiative; I cast the enchantment without even thinking about it, and as soon as I did I realized my mistake, just seconds before the DM announced it: Undead don't fall to mind-affecting spells.

    I do pack some direct damage spells, though, so I wasn't completely inhibited, but this has been the pattern for awhile now: find an enemy in the Monster Manual immune to mind-affecting spells, and throw it at the Enchantress. I spend most of the battle hurling Fireballs and Lightning Bolts alongside the other casters, whose characters were built with the damage-dealing flavour in mind, while my Enchantress loses the flavour I built her to have. I can't blame my DM - it is his job to keep me on my toes - but I need a way to keep the character's... well, character. I don't like complaining, so I've brooched the subject in fewer words than this, but the DM is set on finding ways to foil me. I need to turn the tables before I ditch the character altogether, which I really don't want to do because I like her a lot, but it's pointless to keep her if she's prevented from doing what she's supposed to do.

    So, the actual question:

    Does anybody know of any feats, skills, abilities, items, spells, WHATEVER, that can make enchantments affect creatures that are immune to mind-affecting spells? Not even all of them - maybe one that just affects constructs, or undead, or something. I'm thinking I'll probably have to come up with a spell set for it, but I hope somebody here knows of something already in place.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Enchanting Undead...

    Song of the Dead metamagic feat.

    Dragon 312. +1 spell level. It only allows for intellignet undead, but it may help you a bit. Sadly though, all Enchantment spells prepared this way become Necromancy spells.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Enchanting Undead...

    There are a couple Command Undead-esque spells, which only apply to certain opponents. Dread Witch allows fear to overcome fear-immunity, but fear is necromancy.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Enchanting Undead...

    Which book is Dragon? Or am I missing something? That sounds like it might work - I have no qualms against Necromancy here
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    Default Re: [3.5] Enchanting Undead...

    Dragon means Dragon Magazine. Generally rough to get past many DMs.

    Also, do you have illusion? Non-intelligent undead don't get saves v. Illusion spells.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Enchanting Undead...

    Enchantment spells and Sneak Attack, good, decently balance ideas with defenses against them built right into the game itself, and then they had to make half the Monster Manual immune to them.


    Your DM's choice of monsters is probably less to directly rob you of your capabilities, and more that there are a large amount of monsters immune to such spells.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Enchanting Undead...

    Dominate a horde of mooks with hammers and get them to beat on the undead by proxy.
    Me: I'd get the paladin to help, but we might end up with a kid that believes in fairy tales.
    DM: aye, and it's not like she's been saved by a mysterious little girl and a band of real live puppets from a bad man and worse step-sister to go live with the faries in the happy land.
    Me: Yeah, a knight in shining armour might just bring her over the edge.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Enchanting Undead...

    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    Your DM's choice of monsters is probably less to directly rob you of your capabilities, and more that there are a large amount of monsters immune to such spells.
    When his replies to me asking him about it are evil laughs and grins, I'm inclined to think otherwise. That said, he saw the post and he's helping me find the feat... So he'll probably stop throwing undead at me and focus more on constructs now. Wonderful.

    I don't have many Illusions. It's an idea, but she's an Enchantress and I'd like to stay close to that.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Enchanting Undead...

    Quote Originally Posted by Riyoukaze View Post
    Does anybody know of any feats, skills, abilities, items, spells, WHATEVER, that can make enchantments affect creatures that are immune to mind-affecting spells? Not even all of them - maybe one that just affects constructs, or undead, or something. I'm thinking I'll probably have to come up with a spell set for it, but I hope somebody here knows of something already in place.
    Nightmare Spinner adaptation makes enemies lose immunity to mind affecting.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Enchanting Undead...

    There's a spell or two in Spell Compendium that strips undead of their normal immunities. PHB features control undead and command undead, which are essentially necromantic, undead-specific version of charm person and dominate person. You might also approach the problem sideways and dominate any available NPC bruisers; use them as meatshields to protect you during combat. Conjuration also contains a number of battlefield control spells that are effective against undead but won't stick you in a blaster role.

    Also, let me just give you a heads-up: constructs, plants, oozes, and vermin are headed your way. Expect a steady drum-beat of creatures you can't ensorcel with enchantment spells, all throughout your career, and it will get worse as you level up. You can't afford to make enchantment your only gig - I'd recommend diversifying into illusion, conjuration, or transmutation.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Enchanting Undead...

    Quote Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
    Also, let me just give you a heads-up: constructs, plants, oozes, and vermin are headed your way. Expect a steady drum-beat of creatures you can't ensorcel with enchantment spells, all throughout your career, and it will get worse as you level up. You can't afford to make enchantment your only gig - I'd recommend diversifying into illusion, conjuration, or transmutation.
    As I mentioned in the first post, I have damage-dealing spells. She was a Black Robe Wizard of High Sorcery, so I chose Enchantment as her school - Necromacy is the only other option a Black Robe has, and we previously hadn't battled many Undead, so I saw Enchantment as more of an opportunity (not to mention, I've always wanted an Enchanter).

    Unfortunately, I couldn't choose Necromancy as a forbidden school because it's in her Order's schools and it didn't make sense for somebody evil to bar Necromancy. WoHS also can't ditch Divination. I ended up choosing Abjuration and Transmutation (White and Red schools, respectively) in an effort to avoid trapping myself into the no-damage corner. Even more unfortunately, well... I ditched Transmutation.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Enchanting Undead...

    Find the biggest, nastiest living, sentient thing you can and make it your *****. Pretty much what an enchanter is meant for, rather than dealing with problems themselves. If it's an evil character, I like paladins for this, even though they usually need a good dispelling down to get rid of the protection from X.
    Me: I'd get the paladin to help, but we might end up with a kid that believes in fairy tales.
    DM: aye, and it's not like she's been saved by a mysterious little girl and a band of real live puppets from a bad man and worse step-sister to go live with the faries in the happy land.
    Me: Yeah, a knight in shining armour might just bring her over the edge.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Enchanting Undead...

    Quote Originally Posted by Yukitsu View Post
    Find the biggest, nastiest living, sentient thing you can and make it your *****. Pretty much what an enchanter is meant for, rather than dealing with problems themselves. If it's an evil character, I like paladins for this, even though they usually need a good dispelling down to get rid of the protection from X.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Enchanting Undead...

    Hmm, yes, if you've taken the black robes, then morality definitely isn't an issue. I'd just add to Yukitsu's comment: remember to recycle. A paladin makes a lovely dominated meatshield, but if you break your toy, a paladin's corpse still makes an adequate zombie. Really, there's no reason that every interesting thing you encounter can't be made your minion one way or another.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Enchanting Undead...

    I'm liking the dominating idea a bit more than going out of my way for magic items. I've done the playtoy thing before; I just liked the thought of being able to cast Daze (or something) on something that normally couldn't be affected by it.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Enchanting Undead...

    You want the truth? It doesn't matter. Your DM don't like your enchantress and probably will not let you take any item (you are at his mercy here) or feat (if you need to use books the DM don't have or are not using for this game) or w/e. The next BBEG that isn't some kind of inteligent undead probably will have mind blank set up already.

    That's the impression I got from your description, since even in an undead heavy game you still need to deal with living beings at some point.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Enchanting Undead...

    Quote Originally Posted by Riyoukaze View Post
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    Considering what I was talking about, that's more than a little disconcerting.
    Me: I'd get the paladin to help, but we might end up with a kid that believes in fairy tales.
    DM: aye, and it's not like she's been saved by a mysterious little girl and a band of real live puppets from a bad man and worse step-sister to go live with the faries in the happy land.
    Me: Yeah, a knight in shining armour might just bring her over the edge.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Enchanting Undead...

    Quote Originally Posted by Riyoukaze View Post
    I just liked the thought of being able to cast Daze (or something) on something that normally couldn't be affected by it.
    If that was an easy task, then you can bet enchanting would considered the top D&D magic school.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Enchanting Undead...

    I'd recommend homebrewing a metamagic feat to deal with this. Talk to your eeeeevil DM and ask how many spell levels that's worth (I think two or three, myself). Metamagic would still leave mindless creatures immune to mind-affecting spells, of course, and between that and mind blank there's still a lot of stuff your Enchantment can't touch, so allowing such a feat would hardly break the DM's game.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Enchanting Undead...

    Quote Originally Posted by Yukitsu View Post
    Considering what I was talking about, that's more than a little disconcerting.
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    What spells do you know ATM? And are you going to multiclass, or anything like that?
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    Default Re: [3.5] Enchanting Undead...

    Conjuration. Most flexible school of magic.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Enchanting Undead...

    Arakune: He found the "Song of the Dead" metamagic feat for me, and is willing to let me use it. Granted, this means that I'll get anything BUT undead, but it solves one aspect I believe I know my DM best -- I was just asking to see if anybody knew of anything I could use to solve the issue.

    Dimers: I might just try that, for the non-undead aspect, anyway. It'd be nice to have an Enchanter with barely any limits.

    Anatharon: I take Enchantments when I level up, then I buy the rest of them for that spell level and some Necromancy and Conjurations. A few Illusions and Evocations, but the first three seem to be the focus. I heard about Nightmare Spinner and was debating on taking it, but I can't seem to find it anywhere...
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    Default Re: [3.5] Enchanting Undead...

    I'm no expert in D&D and I stopped playing since 3.0, those 'immune' stuff were one of the biggest reasons. Enchantments? You're either god of drones - your opponent is too stupid to have 'mind blank' on, or wad of bones - your opponent is undead, construct, vermin, 'mind blank'ed etc..

    You're a paladin? Good.. Gods can't make you scared. The best 20th level evoker mage can't make the simplest of the devils burn..

    I always loved the apocalypse idea in Qur'an - devils will be slaughtered with fire so immense that burns things made up of fire, even prophets will be scared to death in the aftermath... etc etc..

    I would _love_ to be able to enchant the rotting brain of a zombie if I'm a 20th level master specialist enchanter. If it can walk and try to slam me, there must be a 'mind' within it somewhere for me to control, right?
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    Default Re: [3.5] Enchanting Undead...

    If it's mindless undead, theres likely to be somone raising them. Rather than fight them directly, mess with him/her instead. As a bonus, you now have an undead horde at your disposal. Use Dominate and, unless you put him in sucidial situations, your've got complete control over the horde. Just have him relay the commands and you're golden.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Enchanting Undead...

    Nightmare Spinner is an Illusionist Prestige Class in Complete Mage, that gets past Mind-Affecting Immunities of illusions. The kicker though is the "Adaptation"-section on pg. 77: It suggests that the class works just as well as an Enchantment-specialist as an Illusion-specialist.

    What you want is that Enchantment-specialist version of Nightmare Spinner. It would basically mean you'd never have to worry about Mind-Affecting Immunities again. That requires some work with your DM, but would address just what you need.


    And I suggest you use Conjuration: Calling-effects in conjuction with your enchantments; it's very easy to call some outsiders and make them your Bestest Friends Ever with some necromantic debuffing followed by enchantment. Planar Binding-line in particular is very excellent for this.

    Really, your schools go together perfectly though of course you'd be better off with Transmutation over Evocation and quite possibly Abjuration over something else ('cause Abjuration enables you to Dispel things like Mind Blank, Protection From Alignment and so on that block your mind-affecting effects).


    You've got Necromancy, which can be used to make opponents more vulnerable to your mind-affecting magic, you've got Illusion which can be used to complement your enchantments to truly disorient someone's sense of reality (and also, Illusions are an incredible tool vs. mindless creatures; also, best defenses are Illusion) and you've got Conjurations to get something to enchant, and to obviously stop opponents from getting away. Oh, and Teleporting. Also, for direct damage.

    Then you've got Evocation which...well, I guess it does damage. On level 11, it provides you with Contingency. Also, Resilient Sphere is very useful. I imagine you can come up with some uses for spells that enable immobilizing someone for a couple of minutes as an enchanter.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Enchanting Undead...

    1. Keep backup spells.
    2. Talk to the DM about not using metagame knowledge to foil your character. Some encounters should be immune, especially as plot requires. They should not all be immune just to screw you. Besides being mean it disrupts the story.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Enchanting Undead...

    Don't forget about Enchantment buffs either. Heroism, Rage, etc.

    Plus, mind control spells can be used on your allies to help them overcome hostile mental effects.

    Ally: Aah! Scary lich. Run!
    You: *Suggestion* You are not scared of liches.
    Ally: Oh right, I'm a brave hero. Attack!

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    Default Re: [3.5] Enchanting Undead...

    Thanks for all the help, guys I'm taking all of your advice into mind for the next time I get into a jam. God, I love this forum!
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    Default Re: [3.5] Enchanting Undead...

    As an aside, you did say your party ended up in Ravenloft, correct? Be prepared for lots of undead. Lots and lots of undead. Seriously, its the demiplane of horror.

    Getting a paladin to travel with you will guarantee that even more undead come looking for you since they shine like a beacon to all the evil powers there.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Enchanting Undead...

    We left the Ravenloft setting rather epically yesterday... Even when we were there, we forgot to take the Paladin with us. She would have been nice to have... ah, well. I got paired up with the Cleric, remember?
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