A player is trying to economically take over a town... [4E]

[Hzurr]

So, my 4E game hit paragon tier last night, and things have been going very well so far. Currently, the PCs are in the town of Wellspring, going through a modified version of the "Madness" adventures (Dungeon Magazine 161, 162, and 163. Currently in part 2: Depths of Madness).


To keep people from having to deal with a wall o' text, I've included both the short version and the long version of the background below:


Short Version:

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One of my PC's, a sorcerer named Tzar, is a member of a powerful mercantile family called "Rex". Currently in Wellspring, while meeting with the local Lord to get some information, he dropped some hints that the family would be looking to spread to the town and set up some trade houses there. This was received very well by the Lord. In a later meeting with the Lord (who now was being "counseled" by some of the town guild leaders), Tzar was insulted by the leader of the Baker's Guild (which includes all wheat and grain shipments in the town), and has decided to do a full economic takeover of the town, and essentially run the guild-leader out of business by buying all the grain, buying the loyalty of the street-level guild members (town cooks, bakers, merchants, etc.), and undercutting the prices of everyone who remained in the guild.

Detailed Version:

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Ok, I'm fully aware that PCs should never be given too much power, but this is the unfortunate result of a decision I made over a year ago. A different PC was a son in the powerful Rex family, but had turned his back on his family and become an adventure. Eventually, this lead to some other members of the family joining the party, and some really great stories and campaign arcs; and the Rex family is currently the patrons of the adventuring party (4 of the 6 PCs are employed by them in some form or fashion; including a nephew named Tzartorious, a sorcerer who serves a "face" in the family business. The Rex family is a merchant family, primarily by sea but also a decent amount of trade across land. They aren't the wealthiest family in the lands, but they're definitely a force to be reckoned with.

One of the PCs (named Berry) has a contract out on his head, butthe party was able to trace some of the assassins that were after him back to the town of Wellspring. When the party got there, the PCs split up to gather information, and Tzar decided to visit the local Lord. Since he was the son in a wealthy merchant family, this isn't really unheard of. He met with Lord Chriswell, and in an attempt to hide the purpose of their visit, implied that he was there because the Rex family was considering expanding their trade empire to Wellspring. Naturally, Lord Chriswell was very eager to help out the party, and provided them with what information he could.

Fast Forward a week or so.

Things are not going well in the town. Some of the outlying farms have been completely destroyed by unknown monsters; citizens have been found murdered and mutilated in the streets, people are vanishing out of their beds at night. It's not a good time to be in Wellspring. Tzar meets with Lord Chriswell again (who is now desperate for help getting things under control). Lord Chriswell asks Tzar if the party would be willing to help get to the bottom of what's going on, and Tzar lets him know that the party can help, but it might require...some extreme actions, that some people might frown on; but might be necessary to truely get to the bottom of things. In short, Tzar lets him know (in a very diplomatic way) that they need full legal immunity just in case things get rough.

Lord Chriswell and Tzar discuss this back and forth for a while, when they're suddenly interrupted by an alarm. Monsters are attacking the town gates! Lord Chriswell, in a panic, promises that the party will have whatever they need if they help defend the town (He's not the brightest Lord...). Tzar (and the rest of the party) hurry to the town gates, and defeat the monsters and save the town! Hurray! The locals declare them heroes, and openly praise them in the streets.

Later that day, Tzar heads back to the Lord's manor, but this time things are very different. Instead of speaking with only the Lord, there are also leader from the 3 primary guilds in the town: The Bakers Guild (which control just about everything related to food, including the buying and selling of grain), the tanner's guild, and the ironworker's guild. These three obviously have a lot of influence over the Lord (it quickly becomes apparent that they have almost all the power behind the throne), and aren't so quick to promise the party whatever powers they want. Words get exchange, insults are thrown back and forth (particularly between the head of the Baker's Guild and Tzar), and eventually they come to a compromise and party accepts being "deputized" by the local constable, but are still under the full restrictions of the law (even though they won't be heavily monitored).

However, Tzar is mad that his influence and power with the Lord has been undermined, and he is absolutely furious with the head of the Baker's guild for insulting the Rex family; and decides that the Rex family is going to do a full economic takeover of the Baker's Guild, and possibly the entire town. The Player playing Tzar has absolutely no problem spending his money to buy loyalty, favors and information (and for a level 11 character, who didn't spend a lot on items, he has a pretty hefty chunk of gold to throw around).

The Player is going to email me later about the full details, but essentially his plan is to buy up every single shipment of grain and wheat that comes into town, to buy the loyalty of as many of the local bakers and merchants as he can, and to undercut the costs of every single guild member who doesn't change his alliance from the current guild leaders to the Rex family.

A few things to remember:
- The player has the resources to spend a significant amount of money pursuing this goal. And, in theory, since this is a Rex family enterprise, he has the entire Rex family resources that he can put behind this (if he can convince them of it).
- The PCs are seen as the heroes and saviors of the town. They've saved it from monsters, and were also able to peacefully quell a riot
- Tzar has a ridiculous Charisma, and if it ever comes down to him making a diplomacy check, he'll nail it every time

Some details on the town:

Wellspring has about 1500 permanent residents in it, plus another 500 travelers, merchants, and pilgrims (there's a holy site of Ioun that a number of pilgrims come to visit) at any given time. The population is even higher during the summer. This doesn't include the various farmers and herders who live outside the town.
Wellspring is on a moderately significant trade road, but is also at the foot of a set of mountains (inhabited by some dwarf clans), and on the bank of a river that eventually leads down to the ocean (so goods can be sent out by water without much difficulty). The town does a lot of trade, but could potentially be a very significant city.

So basically, my issue is this: What do you think will happen as the PC tries to economically muscle his way into the town? How do you think the guild leaders will react to this? What about the townsmen? On the one hand, he is an outsider, but on the other hand he is viewed as "The savior of the town."

Anyway, all thoughts will be appreciated.

[Yukitsu]

This is D&D, not sim city. If they want to play accountants and beaurocrats, give everyone else a chance to redo characters and get in on that. If they don't want to, NPC the character, because properly running a profitable venture takes time and effort that should be handled with more than a few die rolls.

[Kurald Galain]

want to play accountants and beaurocrats,

Ooh, where do I buy that?

[Artanis]

Exalted

[HereticNox]

What do you think will happen as the PC tries to economically muscle his way into the town?

The general populace will love him, especially if he is trying to undercut the competition by selling grain for cheap.

How do you think the guild leaders will react to this?

Poorly to say the least. It could range from engage in a price war, or trying to influence the suppliers directly. If the guild leaders are powerful they could hire people to "put him out of business." so to speak

What about the townsmen?

People like people that make it easier for them to fill their bellies.


As for letting them do this, I say encourage it. It is a good RP reaction, considering the background of the character. If you are worried he is going to change the course of the game to much, let him set up shop and a family member steps in run it.

[Tiki Snakes]

Yeah, I pretty much second everything HereticNox said there.
Also, I can't help but feel that unless this is a very gritty and low-power game, it'd be hard to justify a group of adventurers fearing the reaction of....MR BUN, THE BAKER!

Which will just make it funnier when he sends some vaguely floury ninja's round.

[FoE]

First off, how closely are you following the plots of the Madness adventures? Was Shathrax the mind flayer still involved in the plot? If so, have the PCs defeated him? If your answers to the last two questions are "yes" and "no", then quite frankly the party has bigger concerns than financially ruining some head of a local guild.

And that's not getting into the whole thing with Malachi, the Tear of Ioun and the Kaorti.

But let's say the whole "Madness" plotline is irrelevant to your adventure. All right, fine. Here's the thing: this might be fun for this player, but I suspect your players are going to be mighty bored at your next session watching your guy negotiate hours and hours of wheeling and dealing over grain shipments.

First off, you need to ask the player what is his ultimate goal. Yeah, he wants to ruin this guild member … but then what is he going to do? You've got economic control of a town; now what?

Because you can't be a merchant and an adventurer. You can't be running a financial empire while you plundering ancient tombs and fighting dragons. And realistically, this is the sort of thing that should take a while, although it will inevitably happen with enough time and gold.

If you're going to let him do this, you need to do one of the following:

1) Resolve it away from the gametable. Let him work out his little plan and be done with it by the next time you game. Then handwave it by saying the PCs have taken a long rest. Once he's done, have him appoint a proxy to manage his newfound financial empire.
2) Tell the player this is going to take a while and have him retire his character for a few sessions. Have him put in a replacement character while his old character is "working." If you like, let him do a few token rolls to represent what he's doing. Once he's done, have him appoint a proxy to manage his newfound financial empire.
3) Tell the player he has to retire the character. As I said, it's adventuring or bizness. Bring him back for the occasional quest.

After that, you've got to consider what the financial impact on the game would be of his action.

But otherwise, this thing isn't exactly unusual for Paragon level. I mean, players forge their own kingdoms at paragon.

[jiriku]

So basically, my issue is this: What do you think will happen as the PC tries to economically muscle his way into the town? How do you think the guild leaders will react to this? What about the townsmen? On the one hand, he is an outsider, but on the other hand he is viewed as "The savior of the town."

Anyway, all thoughts will be appreciated.

Ok, first off, anyone named "Tzar Rex" shouldn't be running a baker's guild - he needs to start a pharmacy.

Ha! I'm so funny.

A guild war can be GREAT fun.
A general idea, free-forming off your description:

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I'd say first of all, you want to decide who the movers and shakers are in town. Who are the leaders whose actions and decisions will decide whether the player succeeds or fails, while everyone else just goes along with whatever the outcome is? Second, decide which of those people are personally loyal to the establishment and not subject to persuasion, and which are either (1) loyal to the PC as savior, (2) unhappy with the current guild master and willing to try anyone new, or (3) gratuitously easy to bribe. Everyone not in either of those categories is Persuadable With Effort.

Ideally, you'll wind up with 40% Opposed, 40% Favorable, and 20% Persuadable With Effort. Give the players some means of identifying who is who. Success for the players will involve some combination of persuading the middle 20%, neutralizing the 40% opposed (through economic competition, politics, intimidation, or murder), and protecting the 40% favorable from the machinations of their opponents.

To hit some of your other questions:

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Average townsfolt will probably be ok with it, owing to Tzar's hero status and his high diplomacy skill. And really, they're peasants; it's their lot in life to accept whatever outcomes fall out of the struggles of the powerful.

The guild leaders, on the other hand, are likely to react with extreme hostility. Tzar is threatening their power, their social standing, their jobs, their standard of living, and the future and security of their wives and children. They're likely to call in favors and exert political and legal pressure. They may try to get laws passed to stop the players, and use any political favors they have to put pressure on the Rex family to reign Tzar in, encourage the law to arrest the players on trumped-up charges, or engage in a propaganda war to ensure that Tzar takes the blame for any food shortages that result from the power struggle. I'm assuming that they're basically law-abiding citizens, so tactics like thuggery and violence are off the table, but if pushed hard, they might lean on the local lord to eject the players from the town, even threatening work stoppages or other civil disobediance to force the lord to comply.

And if they fail to stop the players, they'll be angry and resentful. Every time the former Baker's guild master sees Tzar around town, he might spit at his feet and make a point of crossing to the other side of the street to avoid him. Every time the town suffers because Tzar the new guildmaster makes a poor decision, the former guildmaster will be right there, loudly proclaiming that Tzar is unfit to run the guilds.

But really, get him to start a drugstore. "Tzar Rex Medicines".

[LibraryOgre]

This is D&D, not sim city. If they want to play accountants and beaurocrats, give everyone else a chance to redo characters and get in on that. If they don't want to, NPC the character, because properly running a profitable venture takes time and effort that should be handled with more than a few die rolls.

Everyone IS in on it. My character, Optimus Prime, the Far Realm touched Warforged, is not terribly useful in it, but I'm enjoying watching it, and helping to strategize. Furthermore, most of the actual work (buying people and low-end bakers) is being done by NPCs... we're just the planning group, who are about to descend into a dungeon and beat people up.

That said, I have several ideas (that I fully intend to share with Tzar), mostly stolen from the Raymond Feist book "Rise of a Merchant Prince" (which I will also suggest to Hzurr and Tzar's player). One of the main things we need to do, as I see it, is start buying grain from farmers in the area... not from grain merchants, but directly from farmers. This does an end run around the grain merchants, and means that the bakers who want to stay in business have to do business with us. Our main goal is NOT to drive the average baker into penury... it is to break the organization of bakers, and bring them under our control (giving us an essential seat on the council).

Now, the bakers guild will know this... grain is their lifeblood. So, they're probably going to start buying up grain on their own. This means we also need to move on another front, which is the mills. While you can do a lot with hand querns, you're certainly not going to run several decent-sized bakeries on hand-ground grain. Even buying two or three mills will slow the bakers down a lot... a mill is a big prospect, and they can't be running with too much of a surplus grain capacity.

The main advantage that the baker's guilds have is that they're on the ground, now. They also have the nominal support of the other guilds, but they've also got their self-interest to worry about... if we are competent at supplying their needs, we have to hope they won't think "If the Rex can take over the Baker's, they can take over us."

Our upsides are sheer amounts of available cash. If we get two weeks, we'll be able to flood so much gold through the system that they simply won't be able to compete (think Mom and Pop v. Walmart). We've also got a degree of public support, which the bakers likely have only within their guild. We might also be able to hire some local talent, provided Tzar gets the stick out of his butt about bribing people for a decent amount of money. If we get desperate or vicious enough, we might start hiring people to wreck competing bakeries.

[Indon]

You could employ the highly abstract attack system into this, for resolution.

Make them improvised attacks, Int/Wis/Cha (as appropriate) vs. Will (or Reflex for down-to-the-moment dealing, Wall Street style). Success means acquisition or otherwise economic dominance of the target. You have the minor players (down in one hit, essentially minions), the lead players (targets who can take, say, six hits before they fold, essentially normal monsters) and maybe one person, the lead of the guild or a minor noble invested in the industry, who would slug it out with him (12 hits, essentially an Elite).

Using this resolution mechanic opens up an easy resolution mechanic for their inevitable economic counterattacks!

[LibraryOgre]

Ok, first off, anyone named "Tzar Rex" shouldn't be running a baker's guild - he needs to start a pharmacy.

His full name is "Tzartorious Rex", actually. He is a very snappy dresser.

[Hzurr]

First off, how closely are you following the plots of the Madness adventures? Was Shathrax the mind flayer still involved in the plot? If so, have the PCs defeated him? If your answers to the last two questions are "yes" and "no", then quite frankly the party has bigger concerns than financially ruining some head of a local guild.

The Party has found out about the lab beneath the statue of Estrid (or however you spell his name), and have discovered Cylus' body and realized that a mindflayer was the one who killed him. They're about to investigate crime scenes, and/or descend into the the layer/lab/sewers. Starting next session, things will be a bit of a dungeon crawl, so the PCs won't be able to personally deal with a lot of the issues personally, and a lot will be handled through proxies.



As far as not letting it bog down significant amounts of in-game time, I agree. We aren't going to role-play every single bribe, every single confrontation, and the months-long ordeal it would take to see this through to the end. A large portion of this is going to be taken care of out-of-game (I'm expecting a detailed email from the player later this week; although I think most of the basic ideas were outlined by Mark Hall above)

I like some of the points that jiriku mentioned. Particularly the idea about a propaganda war. This could possibly expand beyond the current town, and affect the reactions of people at other towns they arrive in. If they gain a reputation of driving existing merchants out of town, how will that change how merchants great them in the next town over? Will this make other people think twice about entering into business with the Rex family?

Also, the party already has a relatively impressive list of enemies they've made, who are interested in doing them harm (which is why one of the party members has a contract out on his life). By angering some people with a moderate amount of power, they also risk the guild leaders providing information and aid to some of the other enemies they've previously made.

[Salz]

First off in Medieval Britain guilds were really supported by the local Lord, even the King. To the point where anyone selling Alcohol outside of the Innkeepers guild was breaking the law. So unless the player's have the support of the Lord, or the Lord just doesn't care then they have a bigger problem. (This may not apply to your world. Just figured I'd throw that out there.)

Second none of the other guilds are going to sit around and let this happen. If one guild's authority it undermined then it sets the example that guild's can be gotten around and are useless. Think of Europe after the American Revolution. Is that really a risk the rest of the guilds want to take? If it could happen to the Baker's guild it could happen to them.
(That is my take on it anyway.)

Next, since we're talking about economics here, the player's flooding the market with gold to achieve their goal as Mark Hall seems to imply is their trump card- that will crash the value of the gold. Inflation like crazy. I don't know how realistic you want economics, but that idea will put many small bakers out of business as they won't be able to afford the crazy prices and people won't be able to buy their bread. All unless the players sell their grain for a loss...

Heck, you could make a game out of this on it's own! It honestly sounds like a ton of fun and I wish the player's much luck.

[dsmiles]

As my favorite character type (Charisma-based rogue), I managed to take over a moderate-sized trading empire, and expand it into it's own nation. Aaahhh...good times.
Politics and economics is as much a part of role-playing as slaying monsters is a part of roll-playing. If the entire party's not into it, do it as a sidebar for a half hour or so afte reach normal session. If the entire party's into it, more power to 'em.

[LibraryOgre]

First off in Medieval Britain guilds were really supported by the local Lord, even the King. To the point where anyone selling Alcohol outside of the Innkeepers guild was breaking the law. So unless the player's have the support of the Lord, or the Lord just doesn't care then they have a bigger problem. (This may not apply to your world. Just figured I'd throw that out there.)

From what's been implied, this isn't a situation exactly analogous to medieval Britain. While the guilds might have originally required noble sanction, they're now developed economic and political entities, not reliant on the crown (for lack of a better word) for their existence. I imagine that, with a different lord, that might work out differently, but Christwell seems to be a fairly weak lord.

[psYcHOtiChikEN]

The players have decided to take gaming in an economic direction. Why force them into a dungeon?

The price of grain effects more than just bakers. Actually the bakers might not be hit hard at all. If merchants are in the habit of marking up the price of goods then higher grain prices mean they can sell expensive bread and cake without being accused of gouging. Townspeople will still have to eat.

A variety of NPC adventures can enter the plot. If the players are accountants and bureaucrats the someone else has to do the adventures.

-Some Robin Hood types will naturally come to the defense of the starving peasants who can not afford to eat. How secure is the cash used to by all the grain?

-Maybe some paladins will stop by the local monastery where they are shocked by the wretched health of the pious but starving clergy. Imagine their wrath when they find out it was an organized plan.

-There is a tendency for riots to occur when food becomes scarce. A lot of influential people resent riots and the individuals responsible for starting them. The towns security apparatus will be offended by the food riots but a sheriff or lord will also be dealing with deputies that can not afford to buy food on their meager salaries.

[Salz]

From what's been implied, this isn't a situation exactly analogous to medieval Britain. While the guilds might have originally required noble sanction, they're now developed economic and political entities, not reliant on the crown (for lack of a better word) for their existence. I imagine that, with a different lord, that might work out differently, but Christwell seems to be a fairly weak lord.

Yeah, rereading it I see where he says the Lord is pretty much inviting you guys in. Not necessarily at this level but still, I see what you're saying.

I feel the other points still stand and may be reinforced by this. If they do not have the authority of the crown to go on (the direct support) then they need to band together to make sure guilds as a whole stay a relevant structure (or at least people think they are). Because as I pointed out earlier, if one falls it shows the rest are vulnerable. It would all depend on the interrelations of the guilds and whether or not their differences and squabbles are smaller than this, or they can see the big picture (which isn't always easy if one guild really hates another).

[LibraryOgre]

The players have decided to take gaming in an economic direction. Why force them into a dungeon?

Partially because we like to beat things up.

The other part is that the town is under assault from Far Realms creatures in search of some artifact known as the "Tear of Ioun", and we, being heroes, need to find an neutralize the tear.

The price of grain effects more than just bakers. Actually the bakers might not be hit hard at all. If merchants are in the habit of marking up the price of goods then higher grain prices mean they can sell expensive bread and cake without being accused of gouging. Townspeople will still have to eat.

Actually, that's part of why we're trying to buy ourselves some bakers and millers. If we can produce bread for coppers, while the guild has to charge silvers, the guild bakers go out of business.

Oh, and I should mention that the major temple in town (Ioun) is on our side. The wizard who is supposed to be dead is a famous scholar. The high priestess is shagging him while he hides out, hoping for good genes.

[Yukitsu]

If everyone is happy playing harvest moon instead of ninja gaiden, then I heartily recommend watching Yakitate Japan. It's basically what happens when you make baking based encounters.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Oh ho, your PC is in for trouble.

The Guilds have power not "just because," but because they earned it.

(1) Why should their suppliers suddenly sell to the New Guy, when they've been dealing with the Guilds for ages?
Don't they care about the welfare of the guildmembers, and the good the Guilds have done for the suppliers in the past?

Your PC can't just "buy up" all the raw materials, if the suppliers won't sell. Remember, this is medieval times - people did business face-to-face, not between faceless corporations. Sure, some suppliers may defect - but they're going to get shunned by all the other loyal suppliers and the Guildmembers.

(2) How does the Guild deal with rogue members? Boycotts, thugs, legal sanctions?
Even the Hero of the People is vulnerable to The Law - unless he wants to take over the town, physically.

That's just two wrinkles. Make it an adventure - if he's serious about it. If token resistance is too much for him, he'll go off and do something else. Money isn't the issue - power is; and gaining power is always an adventure!

[Hzurr]

The players have decided to take gaming in an economic direction. Why force them into a dungeon?

In general, I try to make sure that the PCs have a number of different options they can pursue at any given time. At the moment, I think that they're headed into a dungeon next; however I have no guarantee at the moment that that's where they'll go (they have a nasty habit of coming up with valid reasons to not do what I think is the next logical step...). The involvement in the local economy and government is something a bit new. The previous couple of sessions had been a bit encounter heavy, so this one was almost entirely role-play (with a few skill challenges worked in), and this is the direction it ended up taking (much to my surprise).

The Guilds have power not "just because," but because they earned it.

This is my biggest struggle right now, because I'm not sure how to show this power. In a straight up fight, the PCs would dominate, but they're going up against people who have made their living on this. The PCs have advantages with money, and the favor of the crowds; but they're a bit short on the experience end of the stick, and I'm not sure how to convey this struggle without having the entire game completely bog down in a game of "accountants & bureaucrats" as was mentioned earlier.

[Yukitsu]

If they can't do it directly, just have the guild spike their yeast, making all the bread taste disgusting. It takes a real expert to know that the yeast is the problem. Then you'll just have to hope none of your players know how to properly make sourdough bread, which they could invent if they succeed in realizing what's going on, or if they stumble upon the technique.

If the players get bored of milling about town making bread, they can get back to saving the world, but as is, if they all want to RP being breadmakers, let them until they get tired of it. Then they can get back to saving the world, or failing at it as the case likely will be by then.

[Doc Roc]

Exalted

++(Artanis->cookie);

[Asbestos]

If they can't do it directly, just have the guild spike their yeast, making all the bread taste disgusting. It takes a real expert to know that the yeast is the problem. Then you'll just have to hope none of your players know how to properly make sourdough bread, which they could invent if they succeed in realizing what's going on, or if they stumble upon the technique.

Keep in mind that just because sourdough is invented, it doesn't mean anyone will like it. ESPECIALLY if its new and different. The crew of a Greek cruiser nearly mutinied in 1911 while visiting Britain because they had never encountered Blue Cheese before (they thought it was spoiled) and some Italian-communists nearly got killed when they went east to the USSR to help restart the dairy industry after WW2... and they started making Gorgonzola. A lot of people hate what's new and different. One man's delicacy is another's garbage.

[Oracle_Hunter]

This is my biggest struggle right now, because I'm not sure how to show this power. In a straight up fight, the PCs would dominate, but they're going up against people who have made their living on this. The PCs have advantages with money, and the favor of the crowds; but they're a bit short on the experience end of the stick, and I'm not sure how to convey this struggle without having the entire game completely bog down in a game of "accountants & bureaucrats" as was mentioned earlier.

Why, through indirect effects.

The PCs try to buy up all the wheat - but nobody will sell to them! When asked, they're told "oh, I've been dealing with the Guild for ages - they're good people." If they manage to shell out enough gold, they hear that the supplier was run out of town by angry guildsmen.

Then the PCs try to sell the wheat to bakers - but nobody will buy! "I was apprenticed to the Guild, my father was apprentice to the Guild, and my kids will be apprenticed to the Guild. Ain't no way I'm crossing them."

Then the PCs try to set up their own bakery. Oh, the local masons won't build it for them? "Solidarity, brother!"

Fine, the PCs hire outside workers to build, when they're informed by the town council that they cannot build a bakery on that land. Why? "Lord's order. All new bakeries need a writ from the Lord."

Damn it all! We'll build it anyway! The PCs then find themselves in a showdown with the local Watch. Do they really want to fight the lawful order in the land? And be declared Outlaws by the higher authorities?

...and so on

EDIT: Note that each instance is an encounter in itself - and dealing with it is a perfectly legitimate adventure. Why, the PCs might decide to get a writ from a powerful church to build a new chapel... which just so happens to also produce baked goods. It's one thing to hustle out some adventurers - but does the Lord really want to go against the Church?

Or, if the PCs are "grayer" than that - well, if the Guilds are going to play rough, maybe they should find a Guild of their own - a Thieves' Guild

[Yukitsu]

It's not too far out there. It's like a sour rye, but with a slightly different texture, so I doubt it would be too foreign.

[Asbestos]

It's not too far out there. It's like a sour rye, but with a slightly different texture, so I doubt it would be too foreign.

Yeah, but its the sour part. Also, people don't generally use sourdough for all bread needs. Sour-eggy bread? sour-bread crumbs in meat loaf? sour-egg in the basket?

[Yukitsu]

This may be because I'm poor, and thus my options are limited, but those are all delicious to me.

[Asbestos]

This may be because I'm poor, and thus my options are limited, but those are all delicious to me.

Like I said, different tastes. Keep in mind that these people won't have limited options (established bakers). Also, its purely hypothetical that sourdough will be involved!

[Gamerlord]

Well I don't have a DDI subscription, so I don't know what adventure you speak of but are all the other players willing to do this? If they want too, let them, they might all have a role, a fighter or barbarian can "convince" people. A rouge or other sneaky dude can cause a "accident" in the bakers guild house that might be rather costly to repair, or assassinate a high-ranking guilds member. A bard or other charismatic leader can help this "Tzar" fellow with his diplomatic efforts, etc. Also if your group enjoys role playing, this is a gold mine for them.

Of course any powerful guild has more then enough money to recruit quite a few bruisers, and a guild war may start.... and lets not forget that any self-respecting farmer must be pretty tough, so the bakers guild already has quite a bit of muscle.