[4E] Healing without surges

[Hzurr]

One thing I've started to notice as more and more books are released for 4E, is that healing seems to be stepping away from using healing surges. It's something that I started noticing with the Artificer in our party, and saw even moreso in the preview article of The Ardent that was released earlier today.

I just seem to be finding a large number of powers that are "regain hitpoints as if you had spent a healing surge" or "gain temporary hitpoints equal to your healing surge value."

Are people having trouble with PCs running out of healing surges? I've very rarely seen anyone actually run out of healing surges (it's happened a couple of times, but usually because of strenuous circumstances like undead that drain healing surges; or the party spending the night in a lab taken over by aberrant monstrosities and trying to take an extended rest and failing endurance checks ). It just seems that PCs will run out of daily and utility powers long before they run out of healing surges, and with characters like the artificer who can effectively pool the entire party's healing surges, I feel like it's even more rare.

Is this an issue for groups?

[Krrth]

One thing I've started to notice as more and more books are released for 4E, is that healing seems to be stepping away from using healing surges. It's something that I started noticing with the Artificer in our party, and saw even moreso in the preview article of The Ardent that was released earlier today.

I just seem to be finding a large number of powers that are "regain hitpoints as if you had spent a healing surge" or "gain temporary hitpoints equal to your healing surge value."

Are people having trouble with PCs running out of healing surges? I've very rarely seen anyone actually run out of healing surges (it's happened a couple of times, but usually because of strenuous circumstances like undead that drain healing surges; or the party spending the night in a lab taken over by aberrant monstrosities and trying to take an extended rest and failing endurance checks ). It just seems that PCs will run out of daily and utility powers long before they run out of healing surges, and with characters like the artificer who can effectively pool the entire party's healing surges, I feel like it's even more rare.

Is this an issue for groups?

You can only spend one healing surge in combat, and then by using your second wind. Most of these powers allow for more healing. There are powers that specifically allow you to spend healing surges in combat, but those are class specific.

[Kurald Galain]

Are people having trouble with PCs running out of healing surges?

I don't recall that ever happening to me or anyone I've played with, no. In just a handful of cases, somebody was out of surges when the final encounter of the day was done.

[Duos Greanleef]

This has always been something that I've wondered about.
The only time that I've ever had a PC worried about his healing surges is right now actually.
I've got a homebrewed disease that permanently takes away a healing surge until he's cured of the disease.
Even so... He's a ranger and he's down to three... which is still pretty reasonable.
My PCs in our old group have a tendency to go out of their way to take an extended rest after two encounters so it was never an issue, een when we fought a HOARD of Wights. That was frustrating.
So realistically, I don't understand why anyone would be having problems with having enough surges.

[Duos Greanleef]

You can only spend one healing surge in combat, and then by using your second wind. Most of these powers allow for more healing. There are powers that specifically allow you to spend healing surges in combat, but those are class specific.

Can you cite that from some book?
I know you can only use your second wind one time, but I've never heard of only being able to use one healing surge. That would kinda seriously nerf Lay on Hands.

[Krrth]

This has always been something that I've wondered about.
The only time that I've ever had a PC worried about his healing surges is right now actually.
I've got a homebrewed disease that permanently takes away a healing surge until he's cured of the disease.
Even so... He's a ranger and he's down to three... which is still pretty reasonable.
My PCs in our old group have a tendency to go out of their way to take an extended rest after two encounters so it was never an issue, een when we fought a HOARD of Wights. That was frustrating.
So realistically, I don't understand why anyone would be having problems with having enough surges.

Out of combat, no. In combat, yes.


edit: hold on, I'll check.

[Jack_Banzai]

The bard's powers Vigorous Cadence, Saga of Vengeance and Stirring Shout make a bard (particularly a Summer Rhymer build) the king of something-for-nothing healing.

[Krrth]

It's on pg 293 of the PH, healing in combat.

You can heal in combat one of three ways: second wind (which uses a healing surge), using the heal skill, or having a healing power used on you. That's it.

[gman]

I've found that my PCs run out of healing surges fairly quickly.

I do tend to run a higher proportion of overlevelled encounters compared to the DMG recommendation though, and only very rarely indeed underlevelled encounters, but on the other hand I let all PCs get the average of the warlord's inspiring word bonus on every surge they spend during a short rest, and with two warlocks and a staff wizard it's a high-Con party too.

My Dragonborn Paladin, Con about 14, even decided to take Durable!

It probably varies most of all on how many encounters different groups pack in between extended rests.

All that said, I like it that way: Everything gets wonderfully tense when characters are running low on surges but really don't want to have to stop to rest.

[Kurald Galain]

I know you can only use your second wind one time, but I've never heard of only being able to use one healing surge.

That's incorrect. Second Wind is not the same as Healing Surge. The relation between the two is that Second Wind is an action that is only rarely useful for anyone except dwarves, that lets you spend a Healing Surge.

Second Wind is limited to only once per combat. Healing Surges are not limited, but you can't spend Healing Surges except when a power, item or other effect explicitly lets you. Second Wind is such an effect, but so is Healing Word.

[Mando Knight]

One thing I've started to notice as more and more books are released for 4E, is that healing seems to be stepping away from using healing surges. It's something that I started noticing with the Artificer in our party, and saw even moreso in the preview article of The Ardent that was released earlier today.

I just seem to be finding a large number of powers that are "regain hitpoints as if you had spent a healing surge" or "gain temporary hitpoints equal to your healing surge value."

This is actually somewhat common for healer-type leaders. The cleric has had the ability to grant free temp HP at-will since PHB 1, along with the ability to grant no-surge healing with powers like Cure Serious Wounds. Divine Power introduced a few more such powers, but they've been there since day 1 as the "Healbot" schtick.

[Duos Greanleef]

...Second Wind is an action that is only rarely useful for anyone except dwarves...

I disagree, I've only ever played a dwarf once and Second wind has saved my butt more times than I can count.

...Second Wind is limited to only once per combat. Healing Surges are not limited, but you can't spend Healing Surges except when a power, item or other effect explicitly lets you. Second Wind is such an effect, but so is Healing Word.

Thank you.
This was my understanding and the info that I was looking for.

[erikun]

You can use multiple healing surges per combat, as long as a power or ability allows you to. If you use a Second Wind, are targeted by a Majestic Word, are targeted by a Healing Word, get criticaled while wearing a Life Vine Armor, and use a Lay on Hands on yourself, you'll end up spending five surges in a single combat. Only Second Wind is available to all characters, though. The rest are class or item abilities.

As for running out, my Warlord (when 4e first came out) would run low/run out of surges at the end of the day. He was a spiked chain wielder, and frequently on the front lines, so he was targeted by enemies a lot. We've also had a party rogue which liked to get in the middle of everything, and frequently ran out of surges.

Beyond that, everyone normally comes out of combat healthy. In my current party, the bard has the lowest number of surges and obviously ends up with the least in the evening, but even she normally has 3-4 remaining. Everyone else will almost always finish the day with half or more.

[Ridureyu]

My party tends to run out of healing surges per day (for the striker and defender), but we have very long, eventful days, and the monsters are not weak.

[Hzurr]

You can only spend one healing surge in combat, and then by using your second wind. Most of these powers allow for more healing. There are powers that specifically allow you to spend healing surges in combat, but those are class specific.

While this is correct, I'm going to re-word it to clarify (because I misunderstood what you were saying when I first read it). You can spend as many healing surges in combat as you want, but the only way to trigger them yourself is with second wind, or a specific power that you have. However, You only have 1 second wind per encounter (unless you have a power that re-charges it); so any other spending of healing surges has to come from powers.

[snip]
The relation between the two is that Second Wind is an action that is only rarely useful for anyone except dwarves, that lets you spend a Healing Surge.

Second Wind is limited to only once per combat.

[snip]

One other thing to remember about second wind, is that this is what you use when someone performs a heal check on you. If you're unconscious, and someone makes the heal check, but you've already used your second wind, you don't get back up. You simply stabilize.

This (coming back from unconscious) is actually where I've seen 2nd wind used the most. (Excluding when I have a dwarf PC)

[Kurald Galain]

This (coming back from unconscious) is actually where I've seen 2nd wind used the most. (Excluding when I have a dwarf PC)

Agreed. Although, I've found most combats to be short enough that the PCs can afford to defeat all the enemies first, before needing to use their standard actions on healing an ally.

[Krrth]

Hzur: Thanks. It sounded clearer in my head....


Kurald: We ended up running out the other night. Of course, neither of our groups clerics showed up for the session.

The only healing we had was our second winds and one healing potion.

We had three characters making death saves (at one time!) by the end of the night. My character was down to 4 hp.

The only reason we lived was because of aegis of shielding.

[Duos Greanleef]

...
The only reason we lived was because of aegis of shielding.

Corellon bless that Aegis.

[Krrth]

Corellon bless that Aegis.

Indeed. That session was one of the few times I've seen players asking the GM if they could take the hit instead of me (I play the swordmage).

It got to the point were I wasn't allowed to get into melee combat.

[Mystic Muse]

My party tends to run out of healing surges per day (for the striker and defender), but we have very long, eventful days, and the monsters are not weak.

same here. Plus we have a nasty DM. (by this I mean he will kill you and he won't care. Not that he's bad. in fact he's currently the best DM I have I'd say.)

[BobTheDog]

I think the point about healing surges is less about running out of them and more about the threat of doing so. I find my players deciding to stop for the day when they're down to their last few surges; they only go for the "last fight" when they absolutely have to (time running out etc). Powers that grant temp HP or heal without surges or transfer surges (artificer, lay on hands etc.) might help them get more confident about doing this more often, I guess...

But actually running out of surges has been rare in my games, even if I'm a very, very mean DM combatwise (my monsters fight dirty and effectively ).

[RebelRogue]

One thing I've started to notice as more and more books are released for 4E, is that healing seems to be stepping away from using healing surges. It's something that I started noticing with the Artificer in our party, and saw even moreso in the preview article of The Ardent that was released earlier today.

I just seem to be finding a large number of powers that are "regain hitpoints as if you had spent a healing surge" or "gain temporary hitpoints equal to your healing surge value."

I don't know anything about Ardent, but remember, that artificers need for party members to spend Healing Surges between encounters in order to replenish the Healing Infusion power. Yes, the first two after an extended rest are free, but from there you still have to use surges, although indirectly. Also, this allows for the characters with plenty of surges to "cover" for the ones with fewer ones, in a way.

[Artanis]

I don't know anything about Ardent, but remember, that artificers need for party members to spend Healing Surges between encounters in order to replenish the Healing Infusion power. Yes, the first two after an extended rest are free, but from there you still have to use surges, although indirectly. Also, this allows for the characters with plenty of surges to "cover" for the ones with fewer ones, in a way.

A preview for the Ardent was just released. And I mean just, as in today or something.

It uses the same basic power point mechanic as the Psion, and describe it as "a psionic Warlord." The description seems apt based on my brief (by which I mean 45 seconds, tops) glance at the class.

[Asbestos]

I don't recall that ever happening to me or anyone I've played with, no. In just a handful of cases, somebody was out of surges when the final encounter of the day was done.

I've seen it happen, but sometimes I pick monsters out of the MM purely because they have mean stats and I wargame a bit more than my players soooooo... I make them try sometimes is all.

[Sinfire Titan]

I've found that my PCs run out of healing surges fairly quickly.

I do tend to run a higher proportion of overlevelled encounters compared to the DMG recommendation though, and only very rarely indeed underlevelled encounters, but on the other hand I let all PCs get the average of the warlord's inspiring word bonus on every surge they spend during a short rest, and with two warlocks and a staff wizard it's a high-Con party too.

My Dragonborn Paladin, Con about 14, even decided to take Durable!

It probably varies most of all on how many encounters different groups pack in between extended rests.

All that said, I like it that way: Everything gets wonderfully tense when characters are running low on surges but really don't want to have to stop to rest.

I found the same problem when I make a Pally to cover some of the Healing duties. I usually run out of Lay on Hands before Surges, but later levels I end up running out of Surges after 2 Encounters because our party is understaffed (4 people, no Clerics or Warlords because no one thinks about it).

If you have a dedicated Leader class, I don't think it would come up as much. But if no one decides to play it, then it will be something of a problem.

[hamishspence]

Earthstrength Wardens get feats designed to boost them after they get second wind.

Whats annoying is that the epic "two second winds per encounter" feat is Martial Characters Only. (Martial Power)

[DabblerWizard]

The place where I've seen healing surges used the most is in between battles.

It's the situation where you're getting heavily damaged, but you can't get an extended rest, and you still want to continue on through the dungeon (let's say).

[Yakk]

In theory, healing without healing surges should require one of:
1> A worthy opponent, or
2> A daily resource (daily power, healing surge (duh), etc), or
3> An action point

There are exceptions to this rule. I think they are a bad idea (ie, unicorn touch)

[Kaun]

I know the Shaman in our party often uses healing powers on people that heals other people around his pet for X, X usualy being 3-5 points.

Running out of healing serges is something that happens when your PC's dont have the option of extended rest.

Im running a story arc at the moment where the PC's have 12hours to achieve a goal and it has been awesome form me muhahaha.

Lots of fast paced combat, it has really made them pick there fights because there getting closer and closer to running on empty.
At the end of the last session the 12 hours was almost up and most of them are completely out of serges and dreaming of getting there dailys back.


Question: does the death save count reset with a short rest or an extended rest? It just seems to say rest in the PHB.

[Kurald Galain]

Question: does the death save count reset with a short rest or an extended rest? It just seems to say rest in the PHB.

The way we play it is that they reset after an extended rest. Although so far it would not have made a difference if we had ruled it otherwise.