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    Troll in the Playground
     
    Surrealistik's Avatar

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    Feb 2008

    Default [3.5] Tier 3 Paladin (PEACH)

    The Paladin revised to be a more competitive, higher tier class. There were several aims I had in mind when designing this fix.

    The first was to make pure classing viable and competitive; I really wanted to give players compelling reasons to stick with the Paladin, rather than branching off/dipping into something else.

    The second was to make the class itself viable and competitive overall, and decisively 3rd tier.

    The third was to do the first and second in ways that were thematic and appropriate. Emphasizing the Paladin's iconic roles as a defender of the meek, and a slayer of evil I thought to be the best way of going about this, primarily by means of damage and resistance sharing, enhanced healing and anti-evil/undead capabilities. It wasn't about simply increasing the class' defensive capabilities so much as it was highlighting these design elements.

    With the exception of these changes and new abilities, or where explicitly stated, it is otherwise identical:

    New class skills: Jump, Climb

    Skill Points at 1st Level:

    (4 + Int modifier) ×4.

    Skill Points at Each Additional Level:

    4 + Int modifier.

    Spoiler
    Show
    Paladin
    {table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|1st|2nd|3rd|4th

    1st|
    +1
    |
    +2
    |
    +0
    |
    +2
    |Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Smite Evil 1/Encounter|-|-

    2nd|
    +2
    |
    +3
    |
    +0
    |
    +3
    |Divine Grace, Lay on Hands|-|-|-

    3rd|
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +1
    |
    +3
    |Aura of Courage, Divine Health, Gift of the Martyr (50%)|-|-|-|-

    4th|
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |Turn Undead, Argent Soul, Divine Providence, Greater Smite I|0|-|-|-

    5th|
    +5
    |
    +4
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |Smite Evil 2/Encounter, Special Mount, Divine Aegis, Aura of Beneficence|0|-|-|-

    6th|
    +6/1
    |
    +5
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    |Lay on Hands II, Indomitable Zeal|1|-|-|-

    7th|
    +7/2
    |
    +5
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    |Blade of Virtue, Detect Evil II|1|-|-|-

    8th|
    +8/3
    |
    +6
    |
    +2
    |
    +6
    |Argent Soul II, Greater Smite II|1|0|-|-|-

    9th|
    +9/4
    |
    +6
    |
    +3
    |
    +6
    |Lay on Hands III|1|0|-|-

    10th|
    +10/5
    |
    +7
    |
    +3
    |
    +7
    |Smite Evil 3/Encounter, Gift of the Martyr (75%), Aura of Beneficence II, Blade of Virtue II, Scouring Light|1|1|0|-

    11th|
    +11/6/1
    |
    +7
    |
    +3
    |
    +7
    |Celestial Mount, Detect Evil III|1|1|1|-

    12th|
    +12/7/2
    |
    +8
    |
    +4
    |
    +8
    |Lay on Hands IV, Argent Soul III, Indomitable Zeal II|1|1|1|-

    13th|
    +13/8/3
    |
    +8
    |
    +4
    |
    +8
    |Blade of Virtue III|1|1|1|-

    14th|
    +14/9/4
    |
    +9
    |
    +4
    |
    +9
    |Greater Smite III|2|1|1|0

    15th|
    +15/10/5
    |
    +9
    |
    +5
    |
    +9
    |Smite Evil 4/Encounter, Lay on Hands V, Divine Aegis II|2|1|1|1

    16th|
    +16/11/6/1
    |
    +10
    |
    +5
    |
    +10
    |Argent Soul IV, Blade of Virtue IV|2|2|1|1

    17th|
    +17/12/7/2
    |
    +10
    |
    +5
    |
    +10
    |Detect Evil IV|2|2|2|1

    18th|
    +18/13/8/3
    |
    +11
    |
    +6
    |
    +11
    |Lay on Hands VI, Indomitable Zeal III|3|2|2|1

    19th|
    +19/14/9/4
    |
    +11
    |
    +6
    |
    +11
    |Blade of Virtue V|3|3|3|2

    20th|
    +20/15/10/5
    |
    +12
    |
    +6
    |
    +12
    |Smite Evil 5/Encounter, Gift of the Martyr (100%), Argent Soul V, Aura of Beneficence III, Greater Smite VI|3|3|3|3[/table]


    High Saves: Fortitude, Will

    Detect Evil (Su): As per the core class. However, the capabilities of the Paladin's Detect Evil improves over time as follows:
    Spoiler
    Show


    At the 7th class level, the Paladin gains the ability to gauge the nature of a subject's evil much more clearly, while the range of his eldritch insight expands. With a fourth round of study, the Paladin is able to determine whether or not the target detects as Evil due to Taint, arcane or profane energies (including spells and curses), personality and actions, and/or a subtype.
    Finally, the range of Detect Evil increases by 30 feet plus 30 feet times the Paladin's Wisdom modifier (minimum 30 feet).

    At the 11th class level, the Paladin's ability to Detect Evil becomes penetrating, shattering physical and mystical barriers alike to see through to the truth. The Paladin now makes an opposed caster level check using the total of his class level and Wisdom modifier as his caster level to penetrate illusions, spells and effects that obfuscate, redirect or block Detect Evil's alignment detection.
    It furthermore is able pass through physical barriers much more effectively, penetrating two plus his Wisdom modifier (minimum 2) times the normal amount of material.

    At the 17th class level, the Paladin's concentration and mastery of Detect Evil is such that he requires only one round of study to garner all information obtainable with it.


    Smite Evil (Su): Instead of X uses per day, Smite Evil features X uses per encounter. Smites may also be made as ranged attacks. Smite Evil deals 2 times its normal bonus damage to Evil Outsiders and Undead. All damage dealt by Smite Evil counts as being Divine and Good aligned.


    Lay on Hands (Su):
    Spoiler
    Show
    Beginning at 2nd level, a paladin with a Charisma score of 12 or higher can heal wounds (her own or those of others) by touch. Each day she can heal a total number of hit points of lethal and/or non-lethal damage equal to her Paladin level × her Charisma bonus. A Paladin may choose to divide her healing among multiple recipients, and she doesn’t have to use it all at once. Using Lay on Hands is a Standard Action. A Paladin may convert a use of Turn Undead into a number of Healing points for Lay on Hands equal to his Paladin level x his Charisma bonus as a Free Action.

    Alternatively, a Paladin can use any or all of this healing power to deal damage to undead creatures and evil outsiders. Using Lay on Hands in this way requires a successful melee touch attack and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. The Paladin decides how many of her daily allotment of points to use as damage after successfully touching an undead creature or evil outsider. A Paladin cannot expend more Healing Points in this way than her Charisma modifier x her class level.

    Beginning at the 6th class level, a Paladin can expend 10 hit points worth of Lay on Hands' healing power to remove one of the following conditions afflicting the touched target: dazzled, diseased, poisoned, fatigue, exhaustion, sickened or nauseated. Every 3 class levels beyond the sixth, the range of conditions that can be cured in this way is expanded. Unless stated otherwise, each condition requires 10 healing points to remove:

    At the 9th class level Lay on Hands can remove ability damage, blindness, deafness and paralysis. Each point of ability damage costs 2 healing points to remove.

    At the 12th class level Lay on Hands can remove the confused, cowering, frightened, dazed, fear, feebleminded, insanity, panicked, shakened and stunned conditions. Alternatively, the Paladin may invest 100 healing points to revive a fallen comrade as per the Raise Dead spell.

    At the 15th class level Lay on Hands can remove ability drain and negative levels, and can act as a Break Enchantment spell with no maximum caster level, with a caster level equal to the Paladin's class level. Each point of ability drain costs 8 points to restore, and each negative level costs 16 points to restore. Alternatively, the Paladin may invest 200 healing points to revive a fallen comrade as per the Resurrection spell.

    At the 18th class level, Lay on Hands can restore permanently drained levels at the cost of 50 healing points per drained level, and regenerate lost and severed body members as per the Regenerate spell, each body part requiring 50 healing points to regenerate. Alternatively, the Paladin may invest 800 healing points to revive a fallen comrade as per the True Resurrection spell, though he must possess some fragment of remains of the deceased to touch, and must expend either 500 XP per HD of the target to be revived or a valuable diamond component as per the spell, or be in current and immediate possession of a powerful holy artifact of his patron deity.



    Aura of Courage (Ex):
    Spoiler
    Show
    As the base class, but the aura benefits only non-evil allies (excluding the Paladin) within 5 + 5 x the Paladin's Charisma modifier feet (minimum 5 feet). Allies benefiting from the aura receive a bonus on all saves against Fear equal to the Paladin's Charisma modifier (minimum 1), up to a maximum equal to the Paladin's class level. Note that this portion of the ability is a supernatural effect.



    Gift of the Martyr (Su):
    Spoiler
    Show
    It is the sacred duty of every Paladin to protect the weak and assist those in need. To this end, the gods have granted him the ability to spiritually attune with his allies, and absorb their wounds and ailments as though they were his own. Beginning at the 3rd class level, the Paladin may attune to a number of creatures up to his class level. Attuning a single creature requires a Full Action, and the Paladin must be touching all creatures to be attuned for this duration.

    Once a creature is attuned, whenever it takes any damage or suffers any adverse non-damage effect, and is within 10 x class level feet of the Paladin, the Paladin may choose to redirect up to 50% of the damage to himself (rounded up), or attempt to redirect the non-damage effect to himself with a 50% chance of success. Only non-damaging effects that Lay on Hands can remove or cure (at any given class level) may be transferred with Gift of the Martyr. The Paladin is always aware of the exact amount of any damage to be transferred, and the exact nature of any transferable non-damage effect prior to making the decision to attempt a transfer.

    At the 10th class level, up to 75% of the damage received by the attuned can be transferred, and non-damaging effects received by the attuned have up to a 75% chance of being transferred.

    At the 20th class level, up to 100% of the damage received by the attuned can be transferred, and non-damaging effects received by the attuned have up to a 100% chance of being transferred.

    The exact percentage of damage and probability of an effect being transferred is at the Paladin's option, up to the above maximums. A Paladin may dismiss any attuning at his option as a Free Action, and must dismiss an attuning of his option should he attempt to attune to a new creature when he has attuned the maximum number of creatures his class level will allow, or the new attuning will fail.



    Argent Soul (Ex):
    Spoiler
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    The Paladin's soul becomes tempered with the steel of his virtue, reinforced by his valour, made impervious by his faith. Starting at the 4th class level, the Paladin gains Negative Energy, Profane and Vile Resistance equal to 5 + his character level.

    Starting at 8th class level, the Paladin gains immunity to Ability Drain.

    Starting at the 12th class level, the Paladin gains immunity to Death magic, and magical death effects.

    Starting at the 16th class level, the Paladin gains immunity to Energy Drain.

    Starting at the 20th class level, the Paladin gains immunity to Negative Energy effects and damage.

    Non-evil allies (excluding the Paladin) within 5 + 5 x the Paladin's Charisma modifier feet (minimum 5 feet) receive a bonus on all saves against these effects equal to his Charisma modifier (minimum 1), and half of all Resistances bestowed by this ability (rounded up) up to a maximum equal to his class level. Note that this portion of the ability is a supernatural effect.



    Divine Providence (Su):
    Spoiler
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    Starting at the 4th class level, the Paladin may expend a Turn Undead attempt as a Free Action to invoke the protection of his deity, gaining one of the following: Damage Reduction, Energy Resistance versus a damage type of his choice, or a bonus to his AC, SR, or all saves equal to the total of his class level and Charisma modifier. This ability can be used in response to any attack, spell, event or effect, but its use must be declared before any rolls are made.

    If the Paladin chooses a bonus to his saves, and succeeds on any save that normally has a partial effect on a success, it instead has no effect. The Paladin may opt to roll 2d20 for any saving roll made while Divine Providence is active, selecting the outcome of his choice.

    If the Paladin chooses a bonus to his AC or Damage Reduction, he also gains Fortification equal to his Paladin level x his Charisma modifier. Bonuses to AC gained in this way are effective versus all attack types, including Incorporeal and Touch attacks.

    The effects of this ability last until the end of the Paladin's next turn.



    Divine Aegis (Su):
    Spoiler
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    Starting at the 5th class level, the Paladin gains a bonus to his AC equal to the lesser of his Charisma modifier and class level. This AC bonus applies against incorporeal and touch attacks. Non-evil allies (excluding the Paladin) within 5 + 5 x the Paladin's Charisma modifier feet (minimum 5 feet) receive half of this bonus (rounded up).

    Starting at the 15th class level, the Paladin gains Spell Resistance equal to 10 + his class level, + his Charisma modifier. Non-evil allies (excluding the Paladin) within 5 + 5 x the Paladin's Charisma modifier feet (minimum 5 feet) receive half of this Spell Resistance (rounded up).

    By expending a Turn Undead attempt as a Free Action, the Paladin may increase the SR provided to his non-evil allies by an amount equal to his Charisma modifier (minimum 1), or the AC provided to his allies by an amount equal to half his Charisma modifier (round up, minimum 1) for one round per class level. The SR and AC granted by Divine Aegis to the Paladin's allies cannot ever exceed the amount it provides to the Paladin.



    Aura of Beneficence (Su):
    Spoiler
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    Starting at the 5th class level, the aura of the Paladin becomes as a shining beacon to all who would rally against evil, and emits a continuous Protection Against Evil effect. Further, he is surrounded by a brilliant silver light, which sheds bright light for up to half the Paladin's class level + his Charisma modifier x 5 feet, and dim light for up to an additional half the Paladin's class level + his Charisma modifier x 5 feet (round up in all cases, with each area of illumination having a minimum 5 foot radius). The Paladin may expand, contract or dismiss this light as a Free Action. This light may even persist in magical darkness if the Paladin succeeds at an opposed caster level check, using his class level as his caster level.

    Starting at the 10th class level, he emits a continuous Circle of Protection Against Evil effect.

    Starting at the 20th class level, he emits a continuous Holy Aura effect. The DC of this effect is Charisma based.

    While these emanations may be dispelled, the Paladin can simply reactivate them as a Free Action. The effective caster level of these emanations is equal to the Paladin's class level.



    Remove Disease (Su): The Paladin does not gain the Remove Disease ability.


    Indomitable Zeal (Ex):
    Spoiler
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    His mind and body alike made robust by the impenetrable armour of his conviction, the Paladin suffers no mortal weariness, predisposition to corrupting toxins, nor susceptibility to the rank temptations of bewitching magics. Starting at the 6th class level, the Paladin becomes immune to Poison (including supernatural and magical poisons), Exhaustion, and Fatigue, and gains the Endurance and Diehard feats, even if he does not meet their prerequisites.

    Starting at the 12th class level, the Paladin may expend a Turn Undead attempt as an Immediate Action to bestow himself with a Delay Death effect, with a caster level equal to his class level.

    Starting at the 18th class level, the Paladin becomes immune to Mind Affecting spells and abilities.

    Such is the Paladin's inner strength and vitality that it radiates outwards from his being, a potent spiritual essence that infuses his allies with a measure of his divine resilience. Non-evil allies (excluding the Paladin) within 5 + 5 x the Paladin's Charisma modifier feet (minimum 5 feet) receive a bonus on all saves against Poison, Disease, Exhaustion, Fatigue and Mind Affecting spells and effects equal to his Charisma modifier (minimum 1) to a maximum equal to his class level. Note that this portion of the ability is a supernatural effect.



    Blade of Virtue (Su):
    Spoiler
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    Starting at the 7th class level, the Paladin may expend uses of Turn Undead to imbue any single weapon with Light Generation and one of the following properties: Holy, Axiomatic, Ghost Touch, Disruption (this will work on Slashing or Piercing weapons), Merciful or an enhancement bonus equal to the total of the Paladin's class level and Charisma bonus / 4 versus Evil opponents (equivalent to a +1 bonus). In order to imbue a weapon with a given property, the Paladin must spend a number of Turn Undead attempts equal to its equivalent +X bonus. The light exuded by the weapon is a brilliant silver.

    At the 10th class level, the Paladin may imbue his weapon with the Undead or Evil Outsider Bane properties.

    At the 13th class level, the Paladin may imbue his weapon with the Brilliant Energy property. This form of the Brilliant Energy property works against Undead.

    At the 16th class level, the Holy and Axiomatic properties become Holy and Axiomatic Burst, dealing an extra 1d10 points of Divine damage on a successful critical hit. If the weapon’s critical multiplier is ×3, add an extra 2d10 points of Divine damage instead, and if the multiplier is ×4, add an extra 3d10 points. Bows, crossbows, and slings so imbued bestow the Divine damage upon their ammunition.

    At the 19th class level, the Paladin may imbue his weapon with a special property. This works as per the Vorpal property (including the cost of Vorpal property's X bonus. Further, non-slashing weapons can be imbued with it), but it only functions against Evil opponents, no critical hit confirmation is required, and doesn't work by decapitating, but by enveloping the Paladin's enemy in a conflagration of silver flames, thus rendering it effective even against those who are immune to critical hits (such as Undead). Those slain in this way are wholly consumed, leaving behind only their equipment and a small pile of fine, silvery dust. Enemies with more HD than the imbuer has class levels may make a Will save versus 10 + 1/2 the Paladin's class levels + the Paladin's Charisma modifier to only take 5d8 Divine damage instead.

    For every 3 class levels beyond the 7th, when spending a Turn Undead attempt to imbue his weapon, the Paladin may imbue his weapon as if he had spent an additional Turn Undead attempt.

    An imbued weapon retains all properties bestowed in this way for a number of minutes equal to the total of the imbuing Paladin's class level and Charisma modifier.

    All properties imbued with this ability are only active and functional when used by the imbuing Paladin, though Evil creatures still receive 2 temporary negative levels while they attempt to use or handle any such imbued weapon. Undead and Evil Outsiders attempting to handle such a weapon receive these penalties in addition to 1d8 Divine damage times the total +X bonus of all imbued properties per round. Imbued properties do not overwrite existing ones; they are added to those the weapon possesses. Imbued properties do not stack with identical existing ones.



    Greater Smite (Su)
    Spoiler
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    Beginning at the 4th class level, the Paladin's smites are empowered by the tested purity and growth of his faith, enabling him to cleave through virtually any defense with the fierce strength of his convictions. His Smites now bypass all damage reduction, immunities and resistances of an Evil aligned opponent.

    Beginning at the 8th class level, the Paladin's hand is guided by the divine to seek out his foe. Smite Evil automatically ignores all Concealment and miss chances against Evil targets.

    Beginning at the 14th class level, the Paladin adds his class level to the attack rolls of his smites, while adding his Charisma modifier to their damage rolls. Further, he rolls 2d20 for his Smite Evil attack roll, selecting the outcome of his choice.

    Beginning at the 20th class level, the Paladin's smites act to instantly and utterly destroy any undead and evil outsiders (even if the outsider is beyond its native plane, it will be permanently killed) it strikes unless they succeed at a Will save equal to 10 + Class Level / 2 + Charisma modifier, enveloping them in a dazzling gout of disintegrating brilliant silver light. Any undead or evil outsider killed or destroyed by Smite Evil in this way is obliterated as per the Disintegrate spell, leaving behind only a trace of fine, silvery dust while its equipment is unaffected.



    Scouring Light (Su):
    Spoiler
    Show
    Starting at the 10th class level, the Paladin may unleash a brilliant silver beam or burst of purifying divine energy at a target at the cost of one of his Turn or Smite Evil attempts as a Standard Action.

    Beam Mode:

    This beam is delivered as a Ranged Touch Attack. The beam has a range equal to 20 feet, + 20 feet per point of the Paladin's Charisma modifier, with a minimum range of 20 feet. Upon striking a target, the beam acts as a targeted Greater Dispel Magic with a caster level equal to the Paladin's class level, plus his Charisma modifier, and no maximum caster level on the dispel check. Evil targets are furthermore dealt 1d8 Divine damage per point of the Paladin's Charisma modifier and for every two class levels, and must succeed on a Will save against a DC of 10 + 1/2 the Paladin's character level + the Paladin's Charisma modifier or be stunned for a number of rounds equal to the Paladin's Charisma modifier (for a minimum of 1 round). On a successful save, the target is dazzled instead for an equivalent period. Undead and Evil Outsiders receive twice this damage.

    Burst Mode:

    Conjures a brief vertical column of silver light that envelops a cylindrical area centred on the Paladin with a radius equal to 5 feet, plus the Paladin's Charisma modifier (minimum 5 feet) and a height four times that of the radius. All creatures within are subject to an area dispel version of Greater Dispel Magic as per the targeted version above. Evil creatures receive damage as per the targeted version above divided by 2. Undead and Evil Outsiders receive twice this amount. Further, Evil targets within the area of effect must make a successful Will save against a DC of 10 + 1/2 the Paladin's character level + the Paladin's Charisma modifier or be stunned as above for half the number of rounds (minimum 1 round). On a successful save, the target is dazzled instead for an equivalent period, and the damage that would be dealt to it by Scouring Light is halved.

    Either version of Scouring Light may be channeled through a weapon held by the Paladin as a Swift Action. A creature successfully struck by a weapon channeling Scouring Light suffers its effects as if hit by the beam version above, with the burst version of this ability centred on that creature. Hitting a creature in this way completely discharges Scouring Light, thus its effects do not apply to any further attacks made, unless reapplied as another Swift Action.

    Any creature killed or destroyed by Scouring Light in any form (even when channeled as part of a melee attack) is obliterated as per the Disintegrate spell, leaving behind only a trace of fine, silvery dust while its equipment is unaffected. Evil Outsiders and Undead slain by Scouring Light, even if not on their native plane are completely and irrevocably destroyed.



    Celestial Mount (Ex):
    Spoiler
    Show
    Beginning at the 11th class level, the Paladin's mount gains the Celestial template. The mount or its equivalent now requires only a Swift or Immediate Action to call.

    If your mount, or mount equivalent cannot have, or already has the Celestial template applied to it, or otherwise would not benefit from the Celestial template, you may summon it one additional time per day.

    You can share spells with your mount as if it had the sorcerer/wizard familiar Share Spells ability.

    You can choose to ignore your mount's spell resistance (if any).

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    vampire2948's Avatar

    Join Date
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    Default Re: 3rd Tier Paladin (PEACH)

    So... this:

    Paladin
    {table=head]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|1st|2nd|3rd|4th

    1st|
    +1
    |
    +2
    |
    +0
    |
    +3
    |Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Smite Evil 1/Encounter|-|-

    2nd|
    +2
    |
    +3
    |
    +0
    |
    +3
    |Divine Grace, Lay on Hands|-|-|-

    3rd|
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +1
    |
    +3
    |Aura of Courage, Divine Health, Gift of the Martyr (50%)|-|-|-|-

    4th|
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |Turn Undead, Argent Soul, Divine Providence|0|-|-|-

    5th|
    +5
    |
    +4
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |Smite Evil 2/Encounter, Special Mount, Divine Aegis, Aura of Beneficence|0|-|-|-

    6th|
    +6/1
    |
    +5
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    |Lay on Hands (dazzled, diseased, poisoned, fatigue, exhaustion, sickened or nauseated.), Indomitable Zeal|1|-|-|-

    7th|
    +7/2
    |
    +5
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    |Blade of Virtue|1|-|-|-

    8th|
    +8/3
    |
    +6
    |
    +2
    |
    +6
    |Immunity to Ability Drain, Greater Smite|1|0|-|-|-

    9th|
    +9/4
    |
    +6
    |
    +3
    |
    +6
    |Lay on Hands (ability damage, blindness, deafness and paralysis)|1|0|-|-

    10th|
    +10/5
    |
    +7
    |
    +3
    |
    +7
    |Smite Evil 3/Encounter, Gift of the Martyr (75%), Aura of Beneficence (Circle of Protection against Evil), Scouring Light|1|1|0|-

    11th|
    +11/6/1
    |
    +7
    |
    +3
    |
    +7
    |Celestial Mount|1|1|1|-

    12th|
    +12/7/2
    |
    +8
    |
    +4
    |
    +8
    |Lay on Hands (confused, cowering, frightened, dazed, fear, feebleminded, insanity, panicked, shakened, stunned, Raise Dead), Immunity to Death magic, and magical death effects, Indomitable Zeal (Delay Death)|1|1|1|-

    13th|
    +13/8/3
    |
    +8
    |
    +4
    |
    +8
    |None|1|1|1|-

    14th|
    +14/9/4
    |
    +9
    |
    +4
    |
    +9
    |Blade of Virtue (Undead and Outsider Bane), Greater Smite (Improved)|2|1|1|0

    15th|
    +15/10/5
    |
    +9
    |
    +5
    |
    +9
    |Smite Evil 4/Encounter, Lay on Hands (Ability Drain, Negative Levels, Break Enchantment, Ressurection), Divine Aegis (Spell Resistance)|2|1|1|1

    16th|
    +16/11/6/1
    |
    +10
    |
    +5
    |
    +10
    |Immunity to Energy Drain|2|2|1|1

    17th|
    +17/12/7/2
    |
    +10
    |
    +5
    |
    +10
    |None|2|2|2|1

    18th|
    +18/13/8/3
    |
    +11
    |
    +6
    |
    +11
    |Lay on Hands (Permanant Level Drain, Regenerate, True Ressurection), Indomitable Zeal (Immunity to Mind Affecting Effects and Abilities)|3|2|2|1

    19th|
    +19/14/9/4
    |
    +11
    |
    +6
    |
    +11
    |None|3|3|3|2

    20th|
    +20/15/10/5
    |
    +12
    |
    +6
    |
    +12
    |Smite Evil 5/Encounter, Gift of the Martyr (100%), Immunity to Negative Energy effects and damage, Aura of Beneficence (Holy Aura), Greater Smite (Improved Again)|3|3|3|3[/table]


    I love the class. Though I think this might end up a little higher than tier 3 - if only for its ability to nullify most effects hitting the party.

    Also, say someone in the party is hit by an effect the Paladin is immune to. Can the Paladin use Gift of the Martyr to absorb it to him/herself, and then.. be immune to it?
    Or do such Immunities only effect the thing targeting the Paladin?
    Last edited by vampire2948; 2009-12-03 at 04:07 PM.
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    Default Re: 3rd Tier Paladin (PEACH)

    Haha, a rather verbose summation for a table, if accurate (well, with the exception of these unidentified "class abilities"). Aren't the detailed sub-components of an ability, or an upgraded ability usually excluded?

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    Default Re: 3rd Tier Paladin (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Surrealistik View Post
    Haha, a rather verbose summation for a table, if accurate. Aren't the detailed sub-components of an ability, or an upgraded ability usually excluded?
    Usually - Yes.

    But this is a Homebrew forum, not a rulebook.

    I thought it'd be useful for people to see when and where the class got upgrades. Without having to look through the text and piece it together in their minds - Which could be difficult with the large amount of upgrades this class has.

    EDIT - Removed the Class Ability placeholders.
    Last edited by vampire2948; 2009-12-03 at 04:07 PM.
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    Default Re: 3rd Tier Paladin (PEACH)

    Sure, for the purposes of at a glance review, it's useful, although when I plot out such tables, I think it better to substitute detail with numerals, as this communicates an upgrade while minimizing visual clutter.

    EDIT: Don't get the wrong idea though, I do appreciate the summation you've put together.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Surrealistik View Post
    Sure, for the purposes of at a glance review, it's useful, although when I plot out such tables, I think it better to substitute detail with numerals, as this communicates an upgrade while minimizing visual clutter.

    EDIT: Don't get the wrong idea though, I do appreciate the summation you've put together.
    Mm.. well.. feel free to adapt the table as you wish. Or copy it into your first post. I will remove it from my post in that event.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampire2948
    I love the class. Though I think this might end up a little higher than tier 3 - if only for its ability to nullify most effects hitting the party.

    Also, say someone in the party is hit by an effect the Paladin is immune to. Can the Paladin use Gift of the Martyr to absorb it to him/herself, and then.. be immune to it?
    Or do such Immunities only effect the thing targeting the Paladin?
    Thanks :). Yes. This is an intentional synergy. Gift of the Martyr can absorb effects the Paladin is immune to, which in turn will dissipate harmlessly when his allies suffer unto him.

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    Cool.

    I was thinking of writing my own Paladin-fix. But my idea involved Marshal auras and such.

    Your Gift of the Martyr thing is more original and interesting.
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    Huh. Just have to say my class has an ability called scouring light too. Hehe. And the concept is similar to paladin. It's like a monk-paladin. It's in my signature if you want to see it. (Radiant Monk)

    I'll read through the class later, when I want to read a lot.
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    I like this paladin. He gets the smite/encounter and the strong will save that always deserved. I see he got some effects similar to some divine feats (technically, getting bonus divine feats), some interesting resistances/immunities, and can enchange the party's resistances as well.
    Still, doesn't look overpowered. He got some strong features, but clerics and druids could still do worse, and I think it's on par with a warblade.

    Nice job. This is a version I'd love to try out myself.

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    noticed something. 800 Healing points for ressurection. Cool idea, not possible. You'd have to have a +45 Charisma modifer at level 18 to do it. I don't see too many paladins walking around with a charisma of 100. I mean really, one look and 90% of kings would just roll over and let him take charge.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ouranos View Post
    noticed something. 800 Healing points for ressurection. Cool idea, not possible. You'd have to have a +45 Charisma modifer at level 18 to do it. I don't see too many paladins walking around with a charisma of 100. I mean really, one look and 90% of kings would just roll over and let him take charge.
    And that, ladies and Gentlemen, is how dynasties are born :).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden-Esque View Post
    And that, ladies and Gentlemen, is how dynasties are born :).
    Ha. I'd rather just eat the king's family. Then I'd win!
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    can someone point me towards a list of the class tiers? People keep mentioning it as if it's common knowledge but google hasn't thrown me a bone...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ouranos View Post
    noticed something. 800 Healing points for ressurection. Cool idea, not possible. You'd have to have a +45 Charisma modifer at level 18 to do it. I don't see too many paladins walking around with a charisma of 100. I mean really, one look and 90% of kings would just roll over and let him take charge.
    Burn Turn Undead attempts. At level 20 with 20 Charisma, you'll need to torch 7. (20x5 base heal points, +7x5x20 from turn undead for 800 total) A 20th level, 18 Cha paladin needs the Extra Turning feat to gain 9 attempts to use for the same purpose. Since it's roughly equivalent to a 9th level spell, it kinda makes sense that only an 18+ Cha paladin could use the ability by level 20.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletmanalive View Post
    can someone point me towards a list of the class tiers? People keep mentioning it as if it's common knowledge but google hasn't thrown me a bone...
    Class tier list.
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    Oh, I forgot to mention the ressurrect thing. Like in that Healer redesign, I think that giving free ressurrection may not be a good idea, at least not with an easily renewable source. Maybe add a limit, like being able to restore an ally back from death to zero hit points, as long as it's not been dead for x rounds, or something. Rescuing it from the grasp of death is fine, ressurrecting a character and taking a nap every day may make death too trivial.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roderick_BR View Post
    Oh, I forgot to mention the ressurrect thing. Like in that Healer redesign, I think that giving free ressurrection may not be a good idea, at least not with an easily renewable source. Maybe add a limit, like being able to restore an ally back from death to zero hit points, as long as it's not been dead for x rounds, or something. Rescuing it from the grasp of death is fine, ressurrecting a character and taking a nap every day may make death too trivial.
    Currently, it burns through nearly all of the character's turn undead and healing resources for the day to use True Resurrection, and requires an extremely high Charisma. Raise Dead and Resurrection are easier, though they still cost a lot of healing potential.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roderick_BR View Post
    Oh, I forgot to mention the ressurrect thing. Like in that Healer redesign, I think that giving free ressurrection may not be a good idea, at least not with an easily renewable source. Maybe add a limit, like being able to restore an ally back from death to zero hit points, as long as it's not been dead for x rounds, or something. Rescuing it from the grasp of death is fine, ressurrecting a character and taking a nap every day may make death too trivial.
    I do empathize with your apprehension. Perhaps including an addendum that using Lay on Hands to perform a True Resurrection can only be done once per week (or other increment of time) may be needed here. How does everyone else feel about the capability?


    Quote Originally Posted by Mando Knight
    Burn Turn Undead attempts. At level 20 with 20 Charisma, you'll need to torch 7. (20x5 base heal points, +7x5x20 from turn undead for 800 total) A 20th level, 18 Cha paladin needs the Extra Turning feat to gain 9 attempts to use for the same purpose. Since it's roughly equivalent to a 9th level spell, it kinda makes sense that only an 18+ Cha paladin could use the ability by level 20.
    Aye, this is precisely how it's meant to work.

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    I'm agreeing that true resurrection could be abused.
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    I like the concept behind the revision. The idea of sharing more of the Paladin's divine protection is a neat idea. A lot of thought and work went into this revision, and I think it's creative, and I like the ideas behind it.

    The class as written is vastly overpowered.

    Auras

    The new Paladin gets 4 types of Auras that he or she shares with the party members. Here is a list of what the Auras protect the party from, automattically once the appropriate level is reached, as that all the Auras can be active simultaneously. If I have misread and the Paladin must choose which Aura to be active, I apologize for misinterpreting.

    Aura Effects (Protect vs or Add to....)
    Fear
    Ability Drain
    Death Magic
    Energy Drain
    Negative Energy Damage
    Vile Damage
    Profane Damage
    AC vs touch, vs incorporeal touch
    Spell Resistance
    Poison
    Disease
    Exhaustion
    Fatigue
    Mind Affecting Effects

    Granted, they are not all gained at once. There is a level progression. But even still, that there alone outshines the Marshall, the class that is all about Auras. The Marshall (IIRC) can only project 2 Auras; The Paladin get's 4, and the benefits offered are far superior.

    To balance this I would scale the Auras according to the Marshalls progression. Instead of using Paladin class level + Charisma modifier as the bonus, it's a flat +1, +2, +3, etc, just as the Marshall.

    Second, change it so that only 1 or 2 Auras can be active at a single time. I think it should be just 1, but having any kind of limit is better than no limit. This Paladin outshines the Marshall in the Marshalls core ability, and this Paladin has tons of other stuff as well.

    Gift of the Martyr

    This is essentially a Persistent Shield Other spell, the equivalent of an 8th level spell effect. The Paladin can have his or her class level in Gift of the Martyr's active. At 3rd level that is 3 8th level spell effects, for no cost in resources (aside from HP) to the Paladin.

    I like the idea of this. I would change it to a single Gift of the Martyr at one time to balance it some.

    Divine Providence

    A standard Paladin could easily have a +3 Charisma modifier at 4th level. This ability would then give that Paladin:

    DR 7
    +7 AC
    SR 7
    +7 Saves
    Evasion, Mettle of Fortitude, Mettle of Will
    2d20 rolls

    Compare that to the feat in PHBII Divine Fortune, which the Paladin could take at 5th level, which grants a static +4 to a single saving throw.

    I would rewrite Divine Providence to mimic the Divine Feats in the PHBII, with a single Turn Undead expenditure granting the Paladin only one of the effects at a time.

    Blade of Virtue

    A +5 weapon enhancement (not counting the base enhancement bonus increase) that lasts for minutes and stacks with the current magical properties of the weapon.

    I would change it to select a single ability for a number of rounds equal the Paladin's level.

    Lay on Hands

    I like the idea of making Lay on Hands more useful. But having True Res and Raise Dead is too powerful. I would suggest mimicking the Touch of Vitality ability of the Dragon Shaman to be able to remove condition effects.


    Overall I like the ideas and concepts behind the revision; my critiques are only with the game balance issues. Hope this helped.
    Last edited by dangerprawn; 2009-12-03 at 10:18 PM.
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    Default Re: 3rd Tier Paladin (PEACH)

    While I appreciate the feedback, I think the fix's relative superiority to certain decidedly underpowered classes, feats and abilities colours your perception. There are also some portions of the fix which appear to be misinterpreted.

    However, I must reiterate and emphasize first and foremost that the core purpose of the fix is to put the Paladin on solid, 3rd tier footing, and make it something worth pure classing.


    Auras: Concerning the auras, the benefit provided is not equal to class level + Charisma modifier, but the greater of 1, or the Paladin's Charisma modifier, with a maximum bonus equal to the Paladin's class level. For example, a level 4 Paladin with a Charisma score of 20 would only bestow a bonus of 4 to allies within the radius of the aura, rather than his Charisma modifier of 5, as his class level of 4 is the maximum bonus any aura can yield. I will clarify the language so that this is more apparent.

    While I agree that the class is solidly better at auras than the Marshal, I do not think that is itself necessarily a bad thing; the Marshal is a fairly uncompetitive class in an objective sense.

    As for a limit on auras, I'm receptive to the idea, but I think any limit should scale with the class level, with all auras being simultaneously usable by 20.


    Gift of the Martyr: While I can see the case that this ability is frontloaded, it is basically the centerpiece of the fix that defines the new paladin, and necessarily warrants a fast and strong onset. Reducing the attunement capacity is an idea, but it should definitely scale with class level. I would be interested in hearing other thoughts on this.


    Divine Providence: It's a strong ability, but very short lived, and requires an expenditure of a Turn Undead attempt.

    Further, to clarify, the save roll allows you to roll 2d20, and select the roll of your choice, not add both to the result.

    As for Divine Fortune, it's a rather subpar feat which makes it something of an irrelevant comparison.

    The idea of choosing one of the enhancements is certainly something that's worth consideration. I would like to hear the feedback of others on this.


    Blade of Virtue: The enhancement bonus against evil does not actually stack with existing enhancement bonuses, though it does overlap with them.


    Lay on Hands: I disagree that Raise Dead and Resurrection are outright too powerful to have as part of the ability, especially with their level scaling and healing point costs. However, I do think that they might benefit from a substantial delay before additional uses. This is another possible adjustment I'd appreciate feedback on.

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    Auras:

    That's what I get for trying to speed read. The flat Charisma bonus is certainly reasonable. Regarding the usefulness of Aura's, there are other examples of Aura's being used that are close in power to the Marshalls, such as the Draconic Aura's from Dragon magic or the Dragon Shamans Aura's.

    I think having Aura's significantly more powerful than these (Dragon Shamans, etc) adds to unbalancing the class, given that the class (Paladin) has additional powerful abilities as well.

    I think a progression of projecting multiple Aura's would be fine.

    Gift

    To have the ability scale, perhaps add 1 additional target every 5 levels? That would be targets at 3,8,11,16, and then you could fudge it (making it every 4 levels) to add a 5th target at 20th level.

    Providence

    My intention of comparing it to the Divine feat was to point out that the other Divine feats only do a specific thing. There are a number of such feats that allow you to burn a turn undead for some type of bonus, and if I remember correctly they all only affect a single thing. Some of them are pretty good feats, at least in my opinion.

    That's what I meant. I think the ability does too much at a single time.


    I still think the Blade and Lay on Hands are overpowered, due to what they actually are (free +5 or more weapon) and because they are way more powerful than already established guidelines for handling such things (Dragon Shamans Touch of Vitality).

    I still think it's a neat concept, but I just disagree on the power scale.
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    Default Re: 3rd Tier Paladin (PEACH)

    Gift of the Martyr: As it stands, I agree with Dangerprawn. I think it is incredibly overpowered. Using an ability like this on something like a Warforged Paladin has the ability to make useless an entire set of abilities.

    How about something more like granting an AC Bonus that replaces their base Armor. That way it is more useful the less armored the character in question, fitting the abilities purposes.

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    Neat ideas here. A couple nitpicks, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Surrealistik View Post
    At the 12th class level lay on hands can remove the confused, cowering, frightened, dazed, fear, feebleminded, insanity, panicked, shakened and stunned conditions. Alternatively, the Paladin may invest 100 healing points to revive a fallen comrade as per the Raise Dead spell.
    So, how much healing does it take to remove confused, cowering, etc? Same with the lay on hands uses at other levels. This could be more clearly worded.

    Quote Originally Posted by Surrealistik View Post
    and regenerate lost and severed body members as per the Regenerate spell.
    Sooo, he can only regenerate penises?
    Last edited by averagejoe; 2009-12-04 at 01:34 AM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tackyhillbillu View Post
    Gift of the Martyr: As it stands, I agree with Dangerprawn. I think it is incredibly overpowered. Using an ability like this on something like a Warforged Paladin has the ability to make useless an entire set of abilities.

    How about something more like granting an AC Bonus that replaces their base Armor. That way it is more useful the less armored the character in question, fitting the abilities purposes.
    Demolishes one of the core premises of the class, can't be countenanced. Even for a Warforged, it's not overpowered at low levels, though it is certainly stronger, given that the effects the class is immune to has only at maximum, a 50% chance of being passed on via the ability until level 10.


    Quote Originally Posted by averagejoe
    So, how much healing does it take to remove confused, cowering, etc? Same with the lay on hands uses at other levels. This could be more clearly worded.
    Each condition requires 10 points of healing to remove. I will clarify.

    Quote Originally Posted by averagejoe
    Sooo, he can only regenerate penises?
    Wording was directly taken from the Regenerate spell SRD entry, take it up with WotC :P.


    Auras: Dragon Shaman is pretty underwhelming. Like the Marshal it's 4th tier at best, and not a good basis for comparison. Even many of its late/endgame abilities are superfluous by the time you get them. Probably the best thing I've seen is the Energy Immunity gained at level 9.

    GotM: Again, the intent is to allow the Paladin to really attune to and be able to divert damage from the bulk of his party ASAP. Given his limited HP pool and healing at lower levels, even with a relatively high Charisma build I don't see it being that substantial an issue. If scaling must be done though, I would allow for one additional attunement every fourth class level after the third. Again, I would like feedback from others.

    Providence: True, but class abilities tend to be altogether exceptional relative to vanilla feats which anyone can acquire for the reason that they're exclusive and usually require a substantial investment of character levels. Also, most Divine feats are lackluster or even clearly underpowered. Divine Fortune is only one such feat. Divine Shield, and Divine Might are perhaps two that can really be justified a slot; that's not an exclusive list, just what readily comes to mind off the top of my head.

    Blade of Virtue: The enhancement bonus scales with level. The level you get it, it is unlikely to be much more than a +2 enhancement bonus versus Evil (which is not at all obscene for its level), besides its Holy and Axiomatic qualities that lasts about 10 minutes for a Turn Undead attempt.

    Lay on Hands: As before, Dragon Shaman is not a good basis of comparison.

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    I think one of the issues you and I are having is based on a different understanding of what constitutes balanced vs overpowered. I don't mean that in a mean or accusatory manner; I mean to say that we may be approaching this from different perspectives.

    I looked at the Tier 3 classes on the Tier system post. For general reference these are the classes, listed in the order of appearance. I think the order listed implies relative power among the Tier as well.

    Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Crusader, Bard, Swordsage, Binder (without access to the summon monster vestige), Wildshape Varient Ranger, Duskblade, Factotum, Warblade, Psionic Warrior

    What I would like to do, but don't have time to do right now, is to compare the abilities of the revised Paladin to the abilities of the above classes. I think that would allow me, at least, to approach the evaluation of the Paladin from a different perspective, perhaps one that is more in line with what you had in mind. Do you think that would be a fair way to evaluate your revision?
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    Quote Originally Posted by dangerprawn View Post
    I think one of the issues you and I are having is based on a different understanding of what constitutes balanced vs overpowered. I don't mean that in a mean or accusatory manner; I mean to say that we may be approaching this from different perspectives.

    I looked at the Tier 3 classes on the Tier system post. For general reference these are the classes, listed in the order of appearance. I think the order listed implies relative power among the Tier as well.

    Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Crusader, Bard, Swordsage, Binder (without access to the summon monster vestige), Wildshape Varient Ranger, Duskblade, Factotum, Warblade, Psionic Warrior

    What I would like to do, but don't have time to do right now, is to compare the abilities of the revised Paladin to the abilities of the above classes. I think that would allow me, at least, to approach the evaluation of the Paladin from a different perspective, perhaps one that is more in line with what you had in mind. Do you think that would be a fair way to evaluate your revision?
    Absolutely. It's also important to keep in mind how the class stacks against the 2nd tier immediately above it.

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    Tackyhillbillu's Avatar

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    Default Re: 3rd Tier Paladin (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Surrealistik View Post
    Absolutely. It's also important to keep in mind how the class stacks against the 2nd tier immediately above it.
    Balencing things against the Second Tier is pointless.

    Tier 1 and Tier 2 are inhernetly unbalenced. Tier 1 can do everything, with infinite power. Tier 2 can do one thing, but it is strong enough that it makes doing anything else pointless.

    You can't balence against them.

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    Default Re: 3rd Tier Paladin (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tackyhillbillu View Post
    Balencing things against the Second Tier is pointless.

    Tier 1 and Tier 2 are inhernetly unbalenced. Tier 1 can do everything, with infinite power. Tier 2 can do one thing, but it is strong enough that it makes doing anything else pointless.

    You can't balence against them.
    The point of comparing and contrasting to T2 is clearly to determine whether or not the object of comparison is truly unbalanced. If it's T2 competitive, it is unbalanced. If it is not T2 competitive, it is strong at best.

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