Warhammer 40K Tactics IV - The Enemy of Your Enemy is Still Your Enemy.

[Winterwind]

It can be,

Okay, thanks.

The reason why I was wondering is that the codex explicitly says "up to two plague marines can be equipped with..." (rather than "up to two models can be equipped with..."), and I wasn't sure whether a plague marine champion still counts as plague marine for these purposes (especially since his options are listed seperately).

but you REALLY want a powerfist and bolt pistol on a plague marine champion with the flamer set up, or at least I always have. I used to use powerfists with my melta squad, but Id never dare send them in.

I do intend to give the champion a powerfist, I just forgot to mention that. Though it's not like the placement of the flamer influences it in any way - firstly tbe flamer replaces the bolter, so doesn't interfere with the champion having powerfist and bolt pistol anyway, secondly a bolt pistol doesn't actually do anything in conjunction with a powerfist either way, except for being shot before assaulting (which can be done even better with the flamer), as powerfists gain no bonus attack from pistols.

With a plasmagun I'd be more cautious, obviously - no need to lose the expensive champion and his even more expensive powerfist if that thing blows up.

[onasuma]

No, it does cause issue. If you fire a flamer, you cant then use a bolt pistol in combat for +1 attack.

Edit: Im pretty sure you do get +1 attack with powerfists. Its thunder hammers and lightning claws that dont.

[crazedloon]

No, it does cause issue. If you fire a flamer, you cant then use a bolt pistol in combat for +1 attack.

Edit: Im pretty sure you do get +1 attack with powerfists. Its thunder hammers and lightning claws that dont.

no you no longer get it unless you are wielding duel fists

[Winterwind]

Edit: Im pretty sure you do get +1 attack with powerfists. Its thunder hammers and lightning claws that dont.

I think this may have been the case in the previous edition (though I wouldn't know). What I do know, however, is that crazedloon is quite right - powerfists are just like thunder hammers and lightning claws in this regard in the 5th edition, you need a pair of them to get a bonus attack (power and force weapons, though, still get a bonus attack from a pistol).

[Myatar_Panwar]

Check out the mythical page 42, under "fighting with 2 single handed weapons"

You don't get an extra attack with pistol + Powerfist/Thunder Hammer/Lightning claw.

And I don't think you can give the champ the flamer anyway.... It says "Up to two Plague Marines..." Not "Up to two Plague Marines or Plague Champions"

I know thats being a little picky, though I don't think I've ever seen a set-up with a sergeant or champion with a special weapon (that isn't a melee wep), so I'm cautious.

Plus I'm not entirely sure as to why you would want to do that anyway. You loose one attack by placing it on another model I suppose.... but you are safer spreading your special weapons out for when you allocate wounds, arn't you?

[Winterwind]

And I don't think you can give the champ the flamer anyway.... It says "Up to two Plague Marines..." Not "Up to two Plague Marines or Plague Champions"

I know thats being a little picky, though I don't think I've ever seen a set-up with a sergeant or champion with a special weapon (that isn't a melee wep), so I'm cautious.

That's why I asked.

Plus I'm not entirely sure as to why you would want to do that anyway. You loose one attack by placing it on another model I suppose.... but you are safer spreading your special weapons out for when you allocate wounds, arn't you?

Only if I have to allocate so many wounds every member of the squad gets one. Then having the special weapons spread out would indeed be better. On the other hand, with the special weapons concentrated, the squad can take more wounds before I am forced to allocate any wound on the model carrying the special weapons at all.

[crazedloon]

Plus I'm not entirely sure as to why you would want to do that anyway. You loose one attack by placing it on another model I suppose.... but you are safer spreading your special weapons out for when you allocate wounds, arn't you?

not quite unless you are going against independent characters (who can position themselves to take out model) in close combat. With the set up he wishes in a unit of 10 (lets say) you end up with 2 special weapon guys (1 with a flamer and 1 with a flamer and fist) while the normal way you end up with 3 special weapons guys. This means the first unit can loose more guys without actually loosing any of their special weapons.

This is particularly relevant when the special weapons redundancy is 1 ranged and 1 cc which can work on the same turn. Its one of the reason I like the sisters ability to have personal flamers on squad leaders and the like, it adds some extra oomph when you need it without actual sacrificing your normal use of the model. In this case the champ goes from dropping a single pistol shot to burning multiple targets i.e. a lot more relevant

[Trixie]

I could definitely be wrong. Never seen a DP in person. I'm just going off of the pics in the codex which shows the princes next to other models. Plus, normal prince would have to be HUGE compared to the nurgle one, if they were on the same base:

Well, I tried to make comparison based on Codex:

http://www.imageboo.com/files/38pedkp4erd59ix8c8u7.jpg

I might have resized something wrongly, though. Marines are a bit larger, since they are in front row. Huh, Terminator is tiny next to them.

Now, does anyone knowhow big Ushabti is compared to this?

[Arcanoi]

I don't know the actual size of the base for Ushabti, but IIRC, they're fielded in units of about 3-5, which means that they're likely about the size of Dreadnoughts.

Also, from the picture of the Undivided Daemon Prince in that comparison, it seems that it is indeed mounted on a base smaller than it should be. It seems to be mounted on a base the size of the Terminator's, and it appears that its foot is actually hanging over the edge of the base.

[Trixie]

Sooo... Larger than 'real' Demon Princes? Hmmm.

Also - one last attempt at an army! Less units, more cheese!

Spoiler

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DEMON PRINCE
+Mark of Tzeentch
+Wings
+Warptime
+Wind of Chaos
205 pts

THOUSAND SONS
Sorcerer
+Doombolt
+Personal Icon
8 TSons
259 pts

THOUSAND SONS
Sorcerer
+Doombolt
+Personal Icon
7 TSons
236 pts

RHINO
35 pts

RHINO
35 pts

OBLITERATORS [reserve]
3 Obliterators
225 pts

+Dozer Blade, Melta Bobmbs or Rhino Bolter for 5 pts

1000 pts

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DEMON PRINCE
+Mark of Tzeentch
+Wings
+Warptime
+Wind of Chaos
205 pts

THOUSAND SONS
Sorcerer
+Doombolt
+Personal Icon
8 TSons
259 pts

THOUSAND SONS
Sorcerer
+Doombolt
+Personal Icon
7 TSons
236 pts

RHINO
35 pts

RHINO
35 pts

OBLITERATORS [reserve]
3xObliterator
225 pts

OBLITERATORS [reserve]
3xObliterator
225 pts

TERMINATORS [reserve]
4xTerminator
+Chainfist
135 pts

VINDICATOR
+Posession
145 pts

1500 pts

Does this still look like TSs army?

A pity you cannot Mark big O's anymore.

[onasuma]

My bad then, Ive been cheating the last few games ive played.

In other news, you definatly can put a flamer on a plague champion - a commonly done thing is (in a marine squad) playing an icon of tzeetch and heavy bolter onto a apsiring champion. Same thing applies.

[Wraith]

Now, does anyone knowhow big Ushabti is compared to this?

I've seen both in the flesh (so to speak), it's best to think of Ushabti as the equivalent of Ogryns in size. That makes them bigger than a Terminator and slightly smaller than a Daemon Prince, in terms of height and girth (although their weapons are somewhat oversized, given that they're Fantasy Melee creatures)

Hope that helps.

[Falgorn]

Quick, off topic question, if I were to get a Blood Angels or Black Templars codex, would I still need an Ultramarine codex?

[onasuma]

Blood angels - yes, dark angels - no, black templars - no, space wolves - no, everything else - yes.

[Falgorn]

Blood angels - yes, dark angels - no, black templars - no, space wolves - no, everything else - yes.

Thanks.

But Blood Angels need one when Dark Angels, Black Templars, and Space wolves don't?

[Arcanoi]

Blood Angels are just a few special rules that went out in White Dwarf, while the others are full codecies.

[Wraith]

The Blood Angels Codex is available for free as a .pdf - for the sake of space, common rules between the two (such as equipment stats and such) are cut out and you're told to use the SM Codex to fill in the blanks.

All the others have their own books, which have *all* the information included and repeated where appropriate.

[Shas aia Toriia]

Unfortunately, this means that Black Templars and Dark Angels are gimped, because they don't have all of the things that regular marines do, like Storm Shields that don't suck.

[crazedloon]

Unfortunately, this means that Black Templars and Dark Angels are gimped, because they don't have all of the things that regular marines do, like Storm Shields that don't suck.

I hate hearing space marine players complain about there codexs... I play DE and they have a codex from the very beginning of 3rd edition

[Selrahc]

A pity you cannot Mark big O's anymore.

Obliterators have never been marked units. They're all outside the common structure of chaos, inside the obliterator cult.

[Shas aia Toriia]

I hate hearing space marine players complain about there codexs... I play DE and they have a codex from the very beginning of 3rd edition

DE? Who?

But at least DE still have a very good list if you know how to use them properly.

[crazedloon]

DE? Who?

But at least DE still have a very good list if you know how to use them properly.

True but there list is so fragile if your strategy is not 100% every game and you have at least average luck you will loose. A lot of the newer lists can stand a little fudging of your tactics (Im looking at you list ) Also a bunch of their equipment doesn't work or is wonky in the new system (i.e. wych weapons, helions) As well as loosing perhaps their best asset in the edition upgrade itself. That being the shoot one unit and assault another

Though luckily no army is faster than us still (I love turn 1 assault)

[onasuma]

As a fellow dark eldar player, Id love to see a new codex, but there is no way i will EVER complain about the one we have at the moment. Its just exactly what dark eldar should be like, and Im more than sure that when GW do update it, it will be dumbed down for the worse player and Ill loose all my cool stuff (wouldnt mind about helions though, they suck).

[Tren]

Its just exactly what dark eldar should be like

That's because that's all it's ever been. In the context of 5th edition I can think of a number of things, both mechanically and thematically, I'd like to see changed about DE to better fit their background. Particularly, in an edition of 1st turn infallible drop pod assaults, IG reserves manipulation, and outflanking Thunder Wolf Cavalry, it's inexcusable that THE pirate raider army--who strikes without warning and scours life from entire Imperial planets-- has precisely **** in the way of control over their reserves, or worthwhile deepstriking/outflanking units.

Regardless of however they adjust special rules, point costs, and wargear, I want to see an all-reserves army be a very simple matter for DE, and be actually viable. Frankly, having total control of when their reserves come in wouldn't seem out of whack with the rest of the 5th edition dexes-- assuming all our units stay as fragile as they are now.

[tribble]

3 chainfist attacks (not sure how they differ from normal power fists),

Chainfists roll 2d6 for armor penetration. so against nids there is no difference, they just cost more. do not take for nid fights.

if you want to exterminate nidzillas, Typhus is an excellent character. 50/50 shot at a wound, counts as a force weapon. ZZT. you even get to take a shot with a template first!

[Mattarias, King.]

Hm. Yo. Off topic a bit, here..

Uh, hey guys, I grabbed myself a couple melta chicks from the FLGS. How good are they, exactly? Should I convert them to flamers, put them in a (dominion) squad, or set them up at an even 1/1 between my troops so that each has a flamer and a melta? I'm no tactical genius, by far.

I face Orks, 'nids, IG and soon Tau and Eldar, if that helps. Only the last three have tanks, though the nids have huge.. Pointy things.

[Cheesegear]

Uh, hey guys, I grabbed myself a couple melta chicks from the FLGS. How good are they, exactly? Should I convert them to flamers, put them in a (dominion) squad, or set them up at an even 1/1 between my troops so that each has a flamer and a melta? I'm no tactical genius, by far.

No. 1:1 Ratios don't work.
Sisters should only take Flamers if they also take a Heavy Flamer as well (Act of Faith to make them AP1 ). Use Rhinos.

And always take more than one Meltagun in a squad if you want to use them at all. And only if you've got Rhinos.

Sadly, meltaguns just aren't that good. Unless you're in a squad of Dominions. Then go for it. The only unit in the game better at popping tanks (sans Monolith) are Fire Dragons.
And, even then, it's only because Fire Dragons have access to FD Exarch and Tank Hunters skill. Oh, and access to Wave Serpents instead of Rhinos. Which is always a plus.
But, yeah, Sisters come at 11 points each, wheras FDs are 16. And Sisters have Power Armour...So...

...Like an Eldar army and Fire Dragons though, you should always take a unit of meltagun Dominons if you can. If you don't. You'll notice.

The favourite still remains the Storm Bolter though, the 'Drive By' squad being the favourite;
Ten Sisters, 2 Storm Bolters. Superior with Storm Bolter. Rhino with Pintle Storm Bolter. Total of 5 SBs, along with regular bolters.

Or, the 20-woman squad with three SBs that eats Faith for breakfast and churns out AP1 shots.
The particular AoF requires that you roll under the number of models in the squad. The best part is, you use the AoF after you've determined how many hits you've made, not 'at the beginning of the shooting phase'.

Given your opponents, Flamer + Heavy Flamer, or multiple Storm Bolter-rush for regular Sister units might be your best options for 'standard layouts'. But, still, nobody ever goes wrong with having a unit of Dominions as part of their army.

My list - for reference;

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Storm Bolter 'Drive By' unit.
Storm Bolter 'Drive By' unit.
Flamer + Heavy Flamer. Rhino (For units that just wont come out of cover - Sniper Rifles, Dark Reapers, IG Command Squads)
20 ladies, triple Storm Bolters.
x2 (Daemonhunters) ISQs (0-2 Troops as Allies)

Grey Knight Teleport Squad (0-1 Fast Attack as Allies)
Seraphim
Meltagun Dominions (I never leave home without them)

Twin Exorcists (NLHWT)
Retributors with multiple Heavy Bolters.

[crazedloon]

Hm. Yo. Off topic a bit, here..

Uh, hey guys, I grabbed myself a couple melta chicks from the FLGS. How good are they, exactly? Should I convert them to flamers, put them in a (dominion) squad, or set them up at an even 1/1 between my troops so that each has a flamer and a melta? I'm no tactical genius, by far.

Well depends on what you are looking for in your army, what your average opponent is, the general battle field you find yourself on most, and what fills the rest of your list.

Now most people will tell you melta is always better if you can afford the extra points. There are a couple of reasons for this which plays in the above.
-longer range (not much of an issue but the flame template is 8" long vs 12 range of a melta gun)
-wider range of targets will get hurt by them (higher str means easier to wound and lower AP means punches through more armor)
-destroys tanks no matter the armor (being able to roll 2d6 + 8 is fantastic)

That being said flamer has a few advantages
-covers more targets (template can get more than 1 model)
-ignores cover (cover is god in 5th edition)
-auto hit

with the above taken into acount teh choice breaks down like this
1. if you play low armored opponents most (guard, orks, DE,nids) flamer is the way to go as it will hit more of them
2. If you fight in city's or high cover fields go flamer as it ignores these and the melta won't be as useful
3.If you fight lots of tanks or heavy armored foes (marines,tau, chaos) on average tables with a normal amount of cover go melta
4.if you do not have a lot of high powered weapons such as Exorcists go melta as you need something to pop tanks

[Mattarias, King.]

Hm. Thanks guys. I'm not a fan of storm bolters, mostly due to my fluff-centric playstyle, but I think I'll put together a dominion squad then. Thanks.

For reference, my current army is:

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Canoness 110 points
-Jump pack (20)
-Power weapon (10)
--Blessed Weapon (30)
-cloak of st. aspira (20)
-Combi-flamer (10)
-Purity seals (5)

Battle sister squad 1 (162)
VSS (49)
-plasma pistol (15)
-Power weapon (10)
-Purity Seals (5)
Battle Sisters
2 flamers (12 points)


Battle sister squad 2 (162)
VSS (49)
-plasma pistol (15)
-Power weapon (10)
-Purity Seals (5)
Battle Sisters
2 flamers (12 points)

Total: 474 points.

+2 extra ladies with meltas.

I tend to play on a makeshift field with few bits of some awkward cover, if it matters. I've used count-as Serahim before, a few times when they were allowed. LOVED them.

[Cheesegear]

Now most people will tell you melta is always better if you can afford the extra points.

I call lies. 'Most people' do not say that. Storm Bolters, and Flamer + Heavy Flamer have been the best combos for quite some time. Because Sisters just aren't supposed to get that close to the enemy. Unless they can kill everything in the shooting phase with AP1 Flamer templates.

...But, it all depends on what you actually want to do with the unit in question. My opinion is that you should always have a unit of meltagun Dominions on standby. And, if you have the currency, a second unit of Dominions for all-Flamer fun. Dominions with Storm Bolters are just superfluous.

Hm. Thanks guys. I'm not a fan of storm bolters, mostly due to my fluff-centric playstyle...

But...Sisters are all about the Storm Bolters...They're part of the Holy Trinity (Bolter, Melta, Flamer)...

Also, Dominions should go into Immolators (not Rhinos) that have Heavy Bolters (Blessed Ammo) or Heavy Flamers (Holy Promethium). Leave the Multi Meltas at home. That's what the squad inside is for; the Immolator has one fire point for a meltagun.

Immolators with Holy Promethium can often force two Morale checks. One, right after it fires if it kills something (for this reason, Immolator should always 'go first' in your shooting phase), and again at the end of the shooting phase if you actually did kill 25% of the unit. It's good stuff.

...If they fail that first check, you can let the rest of your army shoot something else.

I've used count-as Serahim before, a few times when they were allowed. LOVED them.

Count As...Or Proxy?